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Joseph, the question is, is the Rema referring to people who are Torah umnaso only, or also to people who wouldn’t be learning anyway?
I disagree with Joseph all the time, but isn’t the purpose of the coffee Room to debate topics? Any time there’s a debate, it’s by definition going to be divisive. Why should anyone object to open, rigorous intellectual analysis, especially if rigorous intellectual analysis, open-mindedness, and willingness to examine positions instead of being closed-minded about them is supposed to be a hallmark of Modern Orthodoxy?
Joseph, the Rema in YD 246:4 would also ban the Internet and HAM Radio as Bittul Torah.
The drinking in my local yeshiva was much toned down this year, Baruch Hashem. There were less bochurim who were “tofe’ach al menas lehatfiach” when you touched their shirts and reeked like Bowery bums.
Making of A godol mentions how Rav Yaakov ZT”L once quoted a Tolstoy book in his shiur and was surprised that nobody was familiar with it.
Wolfish, I read through the relevant gemara (Shabbos 33b) and meforshim and your reading is the more correct one. I stand corrected.
Rav shimon Bar Yochai was on the madreiga that nochrim would do the work for him. When he saw people engaging in work, he saw what to him looked like bittul torah. After his 1-year punishment in the cave, he came out with the understanding that not everyone was on his level to a learn all day and avoid work.But he heard a balabos explain why he got myrtle branches to honor shabbos, and he understood that as long as everyone tries to keep the Torah on their own level, it is what Hashem wants.Therefore, he can accept others as they are.
this didn’t mean that he started working in the fields. On his level, it would have been the aveirah he viewed everyone as committing earlier. This is why one needs a rav and a rebbe- to know where one is holding and what is the correct mehalech.
Wolfish:
Odd… halacha backwards doesn’t spell anything stronger than that… and I would think it should. After all, Halacha is certainly more stringent than a minhag. 🙂
According to the Kav hayashar, halacha is the letters of “hakallah” (“the bride”, ie the shechina”), and when one works on halacha he strengthens the bond betweeen himself and the shechina.
Many ravs make a kiddush on Shemini atzeres in their sukkahs to be mezakeh the chassidim and amei haaretz.
I have seen TIDe explained in the Hirsch chumash as that one needs secular knowledge to be a complete Jew. This is NOT like joseph There was no stress on secular culture, just secular knowledge. Are there any yekkes who can explain it to us?
Just as a reference point, here’s what the non-authoritative Wikipedia says, apologies for the copying and pasting, ayen sham for sources:
Knowledge of culture and society
“The more, indeed, Judaism comprises the whole of man and extends its declared mission to the salvation of the whole of mankind, the less it is possible to confine its outlook to the synagogue. [Thus] the more the Jew is a Jew, the more universalist will be his views and aspirations [and] the less aloof will he be from … art or science, culture or education … [and] the more joyfully will he applaud whenever he sees truth and justice and peace and the ennoblement of man.” (ibid)
Importantly, Hirsch was very clear that Derech Eretz in no sense allows for halakhic compromise. In his view, Judaism is “an untouchable sanctuary which must not be subjected to human judgment nor subordinated to human considerations” and “progress is valid only to the extent that it does not interfere with religion”. He states that “the Jew will not want to accomplish anything that he cannot accomplish as a Jew. Any step which takes him away from Judaism is not for him a step forward, is not progress. He exercises this self-control without a pang, for he does not wish to accomplish his own will on earth but labours in the service of God.” In The Nineteen Letters of Ben Uziel Hirsch remarked that it would have been better for the Jews not to have been emancipated if the price they had to pay was assimilation. (See also, reforms within Jewish practice in Modern Orthodoxy.)
Torah im Derech Eretz is a major source of ideology for Modern Orthodoxy, particularly regarding the synthesis of Judaism and secular culture. Organizations on the left of Modern Orthodoxy have embraced the “broad interpretation”, although critics say that, philosophical issues aside, their “relatively relaxed stance” in halakha in fact positions them outside the realm of Torah im Derech Eretz.
[w]e prefer to look upon science and religion as separate domains…” (Samuel Belkin, inaugural address, 1943), whereas Torah im Derech Eretz, aims at the domination of Torah over secular knowledge and the application of Torah thought to secular knowledge. See further under Torah Umadda.
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I don’t fully get it, but neither one is my derech so it’s irrelevant. The key difference as best as I can understand it is that Rav Hirsch has secular culture within the framework of a Torah viewpoint, and any contradiction is to be ignored, and no compromises may be be accepted. MO is more likely to accept the secular Torah over the Torah. As Saul Berman wrote in Edah, the goal is to be Modern Orthodox with a capital “M”, where Immanuel Kant has as much say in one’s outlook as an Acharon. NOT Hirschian. In his own words,
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Mesira is like eating on Yom Kippur- in some circumstances it’s the biggest mitzvah. In most is the biggest aveirah. If it’s mesira, halacha allows you to kill a moseir, even today. If it’s a mitzvah, then chazak ubaruch. This is why you need a LOR.
The problem is, by the time cantoresq calls ACS, the kid will be sober. Must be the mitzvah of mesira is doche yom Tov…
The Coffee Room is supposed to be a place for intellectual debate, not just a social gathering. What’s wrong with intellectual debate, as long as one realizes that nothing said here is sharir vekayam uuntil one speaks to a LOR?
Wolfish, that’s not pshat in the midrash. He overreacted to bittul torah. When he came out he was able to see the good in people.
When Moshiach comes, the world will return to the state of Adam Kadma’ah, where we all can sit and learn without the need to work.
Onlyemes:
The gartel is a natural occurence, the string theory is a myth.
String theory is a myth? After all the effort I spent wrapping my head around string theory? Then again I never fully comprehended more than 4 dimensions anyway…
The mishneh says “whoever doesn’t teach his son a trade is as if he taught him banditry”. How many more chillul Hashem geneivah scandals do we need to realize the import of these words?
I know someone will immediately counter with “eini melameid bni ela torah”. Which is nice, except the gemara says Rabbi Shimon Bar Yochai’s derech didn’t work for most. Every chillul Hashem is another proof that for our dor we need to teach our kids parnassah bederech heter. It’s also a proof we need more mussar and hashkafah introduced to the curriculum, but that’s for the OTD threads.
Rashi’s daughter wore tefillin and Rabbi Yehuda Hanasi’s daughters wore tzitzis. The shaila, according to Rav Moshe Feinstein ZT”L, is the intent behind it. Rav Moshe ZT”L said that the intent behind modern txitzis wearers is to rebel, which turns a mitzvah into an aveirah. There is a reason why Rav YB Soloveitchik ZT”L didn’t allow women’s kriah groups or women dancing with the Torah.
You can always move to a different city where there is no shailos with the eruv.
Furthermore, the authors of the study stand by their report. It makes sense that people argued against it, since their black-and-white facts slaughtered a lot of sacred MO cows about attending an Ivy League college being the pinnacle of Yiddishkeit.
A Shabbos goy is like a blech- misused and misunderstood froma halchic perspective.
Drinking is a way for those who don’t experience Simchas HaTorah to pretend they do.
Joseph, there is nothing “bedieved” about earning a parnassah. But yes, none of them encouraged college as a place of higher learning for any purpose other than parnassah, although Rav Yaakov ZT”L was known to have mentioned a few Russian novels in shiur. You have also glossed over the distinctions between parnassah and “college lishmah”.
Agudath Israel of America has something called Project COPE, where people come and take classes for Parnassah. This project has the imprimatur of all of the Gedolim on the Moetzes. The only difference between this and Touro College is that Touro is a 4-year program. Neither pretends to have any shitos of “college lishmah”, and both are for parnassah. This leads us to 2 possibilities:
1. Neither Rav Aharon ZT”L nor Rav Moshe ZT”L were talking about places like Touro, Lander, or Project COPE.
2. The halacha is not in accordance with Rav Aharon ZT”L and Rav Moshe ZT”L.
Brooklyn College and the CUNY’s have a bigger shailah in that the classes are mixed. This is a bigger shailah, although many of the gedolim I listed allowed them as well.
FWIW, I once heard a tape from Rabbi Rakefet (Nachum Segal show 9 days fare) where he said that Torah Umadda was supposed to be as opposed to Torah im derech eretz; TIDE believed that you could only be a complete Jew with secular knowledge, and the Rav held that they were separate.
Jews always dealt with the outside world. The gemara is full of references to Greek words, without being viewed as “modern”. The Slabodka bochurim dressed in the “conservative but elegant” clothing of their day, and did not view themselves as “modern”. Joseph here uses the internet and is a fan of HAM radio, and doesn’t view himself as “modern”. Unless you live completely in a shtetl, you deal with the outside world. Jews always did so throughout the Diaspora, without having to be labelled as modern.
So I propose we drop all labels except for “Shomer Shabbos” and “not Shomer Shabbos”.
Chashuve Roshei Yeshiva who allowed their talmidim to go to college include:
1. Rav Yaakov Kaminetzky ZT”L
2. Rav Ruderman ZT”L
3. Rav Yitzchok Hutner ZT”L
4. Rav Henoch Leibowitz Zt”L
4. Rav Belsky Shlita”
5. Rav aharon Schechter Shlit”a
vechuley.
None of them elevated college into an ideal. But it was muttar. These were, and are, gedolim of the highest caliber.
Truthsharer, faulty in essence or degree?
Anon, I have many friends who attended local CUNY schools. I’m not referring to a non-dorm school, where one’s ruchnius can be reinforced off-campus with traditional family life. There are still nysyonos but they’re a lot less.
ROB, Reb Moshe’s teshuva is easily accesible. I believe it’s in volume 1 of Orach chaim of his teshuvos. He’s quite explicit. Chassidishe rebbetzins weren’t wearing tzitzis for feminist purposes.
Joseph, about your point
“C) One time this wayward movement posed a danger to Torah Orthodoxy, and Rabbonim condemned it in no uncertain terms. That threat has mostly subsided, with Bnei Torah today not taking the MO seriously anymore. Gedolei Yisroel have and continue to plead with them to return to the fold, and await their return with open arms. Baruch Hashem they have notably moved to the right in recent decades.”
“Return to the fold” means they are no longer considered frum yidden. Historically, the standard for being considered Orthodox has been eating kosher and being Shomer Shabbos, whether or not someone is midakdek in other mitzvos and whether or not they hyphenate their Orthodoxy. As long as you kept Shabbos, you were entitled to an aliyah in shul, no matter how your hyphenated your Orthodoxy, no matter how much you elevated your am haaratzus into a mitzvah, etc. While a movement dedicated to lionizing hisrashlus bemitzvos is not an ideal Torah movement, “out of the fold” is a tad exaggerated, wouldn’t you say?
Furthermore, in the previous thread you were maskim that Rav YB Soloveitchik ZT”L was NOT really Modern Orthodox, and that he upheld Orthodox views (eg women dancing with Torahs, women’s krias Hatorah, etc). Are you changing that now?
I remember seeing someone who threw up during laining. He didn’t drink the next year. Ain simcha kaTorah. Simchas torah is an extension of the simchas beis hashoeva from the Beis hamikdash, and the gedolim who were dancing there weren’t drunk.
If your goals and hashkafos are compatible, and you are not repulsed by his/her looks, then it is the right one.
Joseph, I believe Reb Elchonon’s letter was referring to pursuing secular studies in a university. Where else does one pursue secular studies?
Many gedolim mattir college based on the chiyuv to teach one’s son a parnassah, many do not. Eilu Va’eilu.
Brian Wansink, the PHD author of the prize-winning book “Mindless Eating”, notes in his book that placing bowls of mini chocolate treats 5 feet further away from test subjects resulted in 5 fewer chocolates eaten per day. Yes, if they wanted candy they knew where to go. but the ease and availability of it being closer caused many more diet slippages than having it less available. Much of our behavior is mindless, which is why easily available temptation is much worse than temptation which needs to be searched out.
In sum, according to the Avi Chai report:
25% of Orthodox people in mixed colleges lose their Orthodox affiliation.
67% of Jews decrease their observance level by being in a campus college.
Defending co-ed colleges as a chiyuv or hanhaga tova for frum Jews at this point is untenable, unless you view tha above statistics as acceptable outcomes.
For the record, my Rosh Hayeshiva did NOT view classical music as klipah. he said that despite the objectionable behavior of the composers, when they composed they were inspired.
Playing an instrument is time-consuming versus singing along with a cd. The Orchos Taddikim (shaar ha’ahava) recommends singing to develop dveikus and love with Hashem. He doesn’t say a word about playing an instrument.
Maybe Breslov writing say otherwise, but I’m not a Breslover.
Women dancing with the torah can’t be better than women wearing tzitzis, where Reb Moshe says that while technically muttar, if it’s done for the wrong reasons (like he assumes most feminist innovations are, to say Orthiodix minhag is backward and chauvinist then it’s a big issur.)
From page 26 in the report:
Changes in Jewish Observance
In addition, two out of three Jewish college students
change their level of Jewish observance during their
college years. Notably, they are almost twice as likely
to decrease their observance level as they are to
increase it (Figure 4).
SJS, I remember when that study came out. The 25% stat is just the tip of the iceberg. (It’s available for perusal on the Avichai foundation website, for those who want to read it.) Even kids with strong beliefs can’t help but be affected by an immoral atmosphere which pervades on colleges. the constant battles wear you down. It’s also hard to generalize and say “all 25% of Orthodox students who went off were overly susceptible”. The plural of “anecdote” isn’t “data”.
20% of a job skill is learned in college. the other 80% comes from on-the-job training. (I read this in my college textbooks). Does the slight gain in pre-job training warrant playing Russian Roulette with one’s neshoma? Furthermore, is 25% lose their Orthodox affiliation entirely, it’s hard to imagine that such a high casualty count doesn’t affect the rest. If a nasty battle on a battlefield causes 25% of soldiers to return in body bags, you can bet that many other are wounded.
(This is ignoring the debate if college itself is permissible. Joseph implies that college for parnassah purposes is muttar according to most poskim but never spells it out. I am hereby doing so for him. As always, Ask your LOR)
Here’s a quote from a famous study, which isn’t hearsay and isn’t bloviation from Ultra-Orthodox blog commenters- it was a well-researched study done by Modern Orthodox types who support college:
From a blog piece by Rabbi Reuven Spolter:
That’s right. One quarter. If twenty students graduated from your local high school and head off to campus, five of them won’t consider themselves Orthodox in four years – after a full twelve years of intensive Orthodox education. What causes this drop off? It’s not the intellectual pressures, by and large. No, it’s the social environment.
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Most of the above blog post from Rabbi Spolter has been snipped for family reading. Starwolf’s anecdote notwithstanding, the evidence is strongly against co-ed colleges. This is not my false claim. This is the product of a well-researched study done by a Modern Orthodox organization. So much for the claim that 12 years of yeshiva education inoculates someone against the moral dangers of a college. I agree with Gourmet that local CUNY colleges are a much better option than dorming.The question is a local CUNY vs. Touro, Lander or YU. The lack of ivy and over-sized marble porticoes on the frum colleges is a small price to pay for Orthodoxy. You can still get a job with those degrees.
Wolfish, which college did you attend? Was it a local college, like Brooklyn or Lehman, or a dorm college? Furthermore, how many years ago (ballpark) was this? I have spoken to friends of mine who do campus kiruv, and yes my understanding is the correct one. It’s possible your experiences are outdated or non-normative.
The problem is that we have roshei Yeshiva who never were mishamesh talmidei chachamim properly and therefore don’t have a proper Daas Torah. So they grab chumros or assume tha tthe amcha is on the level to turn prishus and tahara into issurim, not realizing the damage caused by their lack of havana. Some of them just get lied to by the askanim or their gabbaim, unaware of what their words are being used for. This is why one needs a rav or rebbe on is close to. Pashkevilin, pasquinades and blog posts are no substitute for an actual rebbe.
In Slabodka they would bring the Sefer Torah to the women’s side so they could kiss it. Ooomis, I direct you to the above Ramban at the end of Vayeitzei which is permissible for women to look at according to most poskim today. Women have the same kedusha as men, if not higher. But the tumah of niddah, when a man and his wife must be separated, is very strong. We are no longer noheig like this as in the past. Anyone who ignores his wife when she’s a nida is a shoteh. As the Chasam sofer says, either nishtaneh hateva or shomer pesa’im. Either way the minhag today is different for many halachos regarding nida.
Secular education is needed. Co-ed education is NOT needed. If it is needed, one should wait until he’s married, or get married young. The pitfalls of a co-ed college are obvious and numerous. No sane person can deny this. People go to college to party. This is an image portrayed in goyishe popular culture, as well as numerous news stories where college partying clashes with law. This is undeniable and not subject to debate.
My Rosh Hayeshiva didn’t ban Jewish music. It’s muttar. It’s just not refined enough for his ears, and maybe one day I’ll reach that stage. Others have expressed this idea more strongly, and felt it was unrefined enough to ban. Bans are counterproductive and weaken kavod haTorah, as was clearly evident here.
In the meantime, I like Lipa’s music. “Fan” and “fanboy” are shnei dinim nifradim. I can’t tell you Lipa minutiae like a fanboy. Being a blog commenter is much more fraught with danger, with kefira, krum hashkafos, machlokes, sinas chinam etc all expressed despite the yeoman-like best efforts of the mods. In other words, one is prishus, one is prishus-nekiyus, to use Mesilas Yesharim terminology.
I still play a basic rpg game, but I’m not a fanboy of them. Having to balance a job, a family, and a night seder means not much time for the gamez anymore. Life moves on, and you exchange one shtus for another.
Furthermore, the Michtav Me’eliyahu writes that performing chumros that one is not on the level to perform causes a distortion in his outlook, where one violates real issurim but ignores it due to his perception of himself as being beyond reproach due to his chumros. Finally, there is the famous story of Mar Ukva who called himself “vinegar the son of wine” for not waiting 24 hours between meat and milk like his father did. Why didn’t he just wait 24 hours? Because if he didn’t, it wouldn’t be real- it would be yuhara. Im Yirtzah Hashem I’ll reach the level of refinement to only listen to refined Jewish music. But I’m not there yet, and refuse to fake it- this is what my Rosh hayeshiva would want me to do “ba’asher hu shum”.
Further clarification- I would not call myself a Lipa “fanboy”. I like his music, but I’m not a diehard. furthermore, “fanboy” is a term used to describe obsessive, parents’-basement-dwelling fans following some sci-fi or fantasy genre show.
I used to listen to classical music and pretend to like it. Then someone pointed out my phoniness, and my Rosh Hayeshiva hated phoniness. You are correct, however. I do not reach my Rosh yeshiva’s standards, which is why he was Rosh Hayeshiva and I’m an Internet blog commenter. He would probably tell me not to be a blog commenter either (machlokes/krum hashkafa exposure/position distortion/etc), but it’s a tough habit to break. I would like to reach his level, however. If you reach for the stars, you don’t get your hands in the mud.
Squeak, the lottery winning is siman, not a sibah. Winning the lottery isn’t causative, but a lottery winner usually is the type who plays lotteries, and it’s indicative of the personality type.
There is a kedusha from seeing the letters of the Torah.
Starwolf, there are many wonderful things involved in shaking a lulav and esrog- many esoteric kabbalistic concepts. Yet, lulav hagazul is passul. There are lines that aren’t crossed no matter how great the reward. No matter what the hidden manuscripts are in the Cairo genizah, if getting them involves violating issurim then we do without. I’m not saying one has to violate issurim to get them, but the ends don’t justify the means in yiddishkeit.
There is promiscuity everywhere if you know where to look for it. Yet, some environments are more conducive to it than others. If you think the typical office is as promiscuous as a college campus, then you are lacking knowledge about one of them.
I’m not saying attending a mixed college is assur. But the sakanos are there.
The Lubavitcher Rebbe audited classes. He was not an active student at the university. The Rav ZT”L did attend a mixed university, but universities were much different back then. The pritzus and “anything goes” mentality in today’s colleges didn’t exist.
A college is a more promiscuous environment than an office.
Squeak, no it doesn’t. You merely explained why the statistics are true. Granted, a delayed gratification type who wins the lottery will invest the money in something paying long dividends. But he will also be much less likely to blow money on the lottery in the first place. That’s why the lottery is a tax on the stupid- the delayed-gratification types don’t pay it.
Tim Harford has a better suggestion- pick numbers and DON’T buy the ticket. That way you can sweat to see if you should have bought the ticket. If the numbers are picked, you feel like an ID10T. You win much more often, and save money besides.
My inbox is filled with lottery winnings ever day. I must win about $10-20 million worth of lotteries every day. should I cash them in? 🙂
Joseph, I also describe myself as Orthodox, yet I recite a whole litany of sins on yom kippur, many of which are relevant. I’m not on the madreiga of living up to my Rosh Hayeshiva’s words, and he wouldn’t tell someone who isn’t to live up to them. For those who are on this madreiga, I am jealous.