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The Baal Haturim’s gematrios were meant as “parpaos” to his actual peirush on chumash. Unfortunately, his longer peirush wasn’t as popular as his gematrios. You can still buy the Tur Ha’aruch al hachumash. Many of the tur’s gematrios seem to back up Rashi or other medrashim.
Tough request, Yossi. What non-chabadnik is so familiar with all the sichos and the hidden code words of chabad that he can recognize where the Rebbe said he was moshiach, to thus be directly responsible for the thousands of apikorsim and ovdei avodah zarah everyone bumps into?
Fortunately, an answer was literally handed to me Simchas Torah when the Crown Heights folks walked in to join the dancing. It’s a pamphlet called “Yechi hamelech”, available for free by going into 770. The very beginning is a sicha from simchas torah 1985/5746. It’s about how everyone in that generation (of 26 years ago, October 1985/ simchas torah 5786) is born a shaliach (“messenger”, well-known to refer to those who follow the Rebbe’s teachings) of the nasi hador (the prince of the generation, a common phrase used to refer to the rebbe and all his miraculous doings). If the shaliach uses his power, he will turn the nasi hador into moshiach, and the Rambam says Moshiach is flesh-and-blood!
This is basically as strong as he can hint it without saying it in black-and-white.
Of course, the Rebbe was niftar on 3 tammuz 1994. So if the Rebbe was niftar, what happened to his promise that the nosi hador was moshiach and that everyone was born in the generation of moshiach?
the easy answer is that he was wrong. But since someone so great as to be tied into Hashem, that the issur of the Rambam of davening to a human as being a chelek of avoda zara no longer applied (apikorsus known as hiskashrus, check it out on identifying chabad), it can’t be he was wrong. So the Christain theology of today came about.
So yes, yossi, the Rebbe hinted at it enough to make everyone think he was moshiach, and is directly responsible for the ovdei avoda zara of today.
Yossi:
To address the point brought up about the rebbe saying about himself that he was moshiach, show me in a sicha or maamer where he says that and not what a mishechist says as they tend to like twisting things to fit to their ideology. That goes for the definitions of non yechiniks too.
Avelleh, it depends on your definition of Modern Orthodoxy. Orthodoxy means accepting Hashem, His Torah and mitzvos, and His rabbonim as supreme. What does “Modern” mean? How does it modify the previous commitment? If it changes it to weaken the commitment, then it is no longer Orthodoxy. if it means using modern technology but the commitment remains the same, then all chassidim are Modern Orthodox.
There is a famous picture of Rav Aharon Kotler ZTL and the Rav sitting together. I doubt Rav Aharon Kotler would let himself be seated next to someone he felt was an apikores. That is not to say that Rav Aharon Kotler ZT”L held of YU. On the contrary. Making of a Gadol mentions how he was upset as his cousin, Rav Ruderman ZT”L, for allowing college in Ner Yisroel.
I was told that the Rav was supposed to speak at the levaya or sheloshim for Rav Aharon ZT”L but was prevented from doing so. Clearly the Rav held of Rav Aharon ZT”L in high esteem, even if he felt that America wouldn’t tolerate the traditional Orthodoxy of his grandfather Rav Chaim Brisker ZT”L.
Charn is correct in his characterization of YU in its early days. Making of a Gadol mentions how Rav Shimon Shop ZT”L finished his shiur 5 minutes early and let his student out, for which he was subjected to a berating by the YU administration.
Charn, can you please expand the quote from p. 31 of the Rav’s book? It definitely sounds like he’s making changes in traditional judaism to fit “modern” America, which does seem to come from his experience in the shuls.
There is a difference between intellectual debates and hatred. Love of fellow man does NOT mean blindly accepting said fellow man’s views, and it does NOT mean abandoning one’s own beliefs.
Hashem told the malachim not to say Hallel when He drowned the Egyptians because “My handiwork is drowning”. Gentiles are also created in the image of G-d, even if they are not His children.
Posting here makes me feel like I’m standing outside in the rain smoking with a bunch of other addicted smokers- enjoying the company but feeling ashamed nevertheless.
The answer to shticky guy’s points is that we take the lulav and esrog for the rest of the days medirabanan. Medioraysah we only take it one day. Shaking the lulav and esrog on shemini atzeres is a gezeirah legezeirah. So we don’t do it.
We don’t make a bracha on the sukkah because we also do things as shemini atzeres and it would be tarti desasri to make a bracha.
Shticky guy, the Gemara, tur, shulchan aruch, and later poskim all rule one should eat in the sukkah on shemini atzeres.
it IS brought down by the Tzemach tzedek in OC siman 38, but it’s hard to ignore the obvious German Christian source.
The German Christians have the custom of pouring lead and divining futures, also known as blee Gheesen.
Sam2, what about wikipedia’s definition?
Here is a credible source for ble ghissen:
The following practices and traditions are associated with the beginning of the new year in German-speaking countries:
Compare to this article from hamodia:
http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/769/scan0008gifpw3.png
On the other hand, check out tzemach tzedek 38:
http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=1609&st=&pgnum=104&hilite=
arwsf, maskim 100%. Great post.
HaQer, you bring up a VERY good point. The OU and the KAJ used to check out the mashgichim at Rubashkins to make sure they were not yechi-niks. Another lamdan told me that they are toim, not genuine minim, and as such it does not affect their shechita. Many people do avoid Lubavitch shechita and wine. But yes, it’s an issue.
DHM, yes. According to the Ramban techiyas hameisim means we will live forever, and olam haba will be here. According to the Rambam there will still be death, and olam haba is in shomayim.
Metrodriver, my 33 lessons of spanish can’t replace 3 years of living in south america. But give me another 6 months when I get to lesson 100 and read the “beyond beginner’s spanish” book I saw on Amazon.
Pimsleur audio tapes are definitely better than book learning, and I heartily recommend the Pimsleur Hebrew series for someone who wants to learn spoken Hebrew.
Another Yiddish thread?
Yoiske, I davened in a chabad-leaning minyan. We skipped tachanun for yartzeits, “Rosh hashana” ie 19 kislev, etc. We did NOT skip it on 3 tammuz.
My brother bought a tape from Crown Heights. Lyrics were things like “3 tammuz didn’t change a thing, the rebbe’s still our leader, our master and our King” and other such things.
A chabadsker who tried being “mekareiv” me told me that Yaakov Avinu Lo Meis and therefore the Rebbe didn’t die either. The chevra kaddisha who took care of him might have something to say about that, but that’s for another time.
I once ended up davening in a chabad shul. They said “yechi” at the end of davening as a chant.
I have a hard time believing that I have the mazel of bumping into all the crazies.
yoiske, what does it mean “against him idealogically”? No such thing. There were maamarim of the Rebbe which made many Litvishe gedolim realize that something was amiss. This isn’t a moyfes. It’s a matter of reading what was written and saying this is shtus or apikorsus. Eg, the teshuva that the rebbe’s atzmius makes it muttar to daven to him directly, etc.
The Rebbe himself used to encourage the view that he was moshiach, as is listed on the websites of all of his enthusiastic supporters (he used to say moshiach “mammash”, the other maaselach, etc.
oy vey, thanks for the quote.
The way I understood that part was that he believed that Orthodoxy was doomed to fail, and Conservatives would win. This parallels very nicely with the text charn quoted- Extreme Orthodoxy would fade away as it has no attraction for the youth of today.
From charn:(Page 31) So, yes, MO was a new movement created as a response to a problem. The problem: The new world. America. Things will be different there. America is not the place for traditional Torah Orthodoxy. Rav Soloveichik did not believe that he was merely helping a segment of Orthodox Jewry — he held that “the future of Torah in America” depends on following his approach. He held that the “separatist” Orthodox will die out and only YU and MO will survive. He held America was too strong for the real, pure Orthodoxy. Those who insisted on continuing the “old style” Orthodoxy would, he said, be come nothing but tourist attractions and die out eventually.
Now, he admits he was mistaken about the vibrancy of Orthodoxy. I could be mistaken, but it sounds to me like Charn’s quote and this view are integrally related.
2scents, the words there in the second post were from Saul Berman, who used to head Edah, a prominent MO organization. He now works for YCT. He said those words as “us, not “them”.
The piece about toanim was in Ami, the breakway from Mishpacha.
Rav Chaim Kanievsky retracted his signing of the ban, and Rav Shteinman refused to sign it. The other signatories still stand by it. Links to article on this in the @mishpacha twitter feed, around May.
According to Rav aharon Feldman, believing that the Rebbe died but is moshiach, while a mistaken view, is not apikorsus. The problem is when it goes further to “yechi adoneinu”, as if the Rebbe is immortal and lives forever like Hashem, or has powers to run the world, or is a being that one is allowed to Daven to.
As for the video, he says “They will understand and see”. He is about to clarify for us the revelation that people will have that will correct their previous, mistaken beliefs. What is that revelation? Someone other than Hashem runs the world. To all CR members- take the challenge. Show the video to your local Lubavitcher and ask them if he meant it or not. Then, ask them if they say tachanun on the previous rebbe’s yahrtzeit. If they say no, ask them if they tachanun on Gimmel Tammuz, when the greatest rebbe in Lubavitch history (in their view) was niftar.Check out identifyingchabad.org, as well as rebbegod.blogspot.com. Then come back here and report your findings.
A little light chases away much darkness.
Haleivi, this is a famous machlokes about what olam haba is, can we die after moshiach comes, etc.
to be clear- this is NOT about sinas chinam. I love all Jews. But ahavas chinam does not mean I throw away my halachic beliefs about Hashem echad, just like my love of my irreligious neighbors doesn’t mean I am not shomer shabbos.
the poskim write that an overly shleppy chazzan can be removed. V. mishna brura 529:1.
Or, here’s a quote from Saul Berman, formerly of Edah:
Sam2, a straight-up quote from wikipedia:
In general, Modern Orthodoxy’s “overall approach.. is the belief that one can and should be a full member of modern society, accepting the risks to remaining observant, because the benefits outweigh those risks”.[2]
[3]
Additional to this, Modern Orthodoxy assigns a central role to the “People of Israel”.[4] Here two characteristics are manifest: in general, Modern Orthodoxy places a high national, as well as religious, significance on the State of Israel, and institutions and individuals are, typically, Zionist in orientation; relatedly, involvement with non-orthodox Jews will extend beyond “outreach” to include institutional relations and cooperation; see further under Torah Umadda.
Other “core beliefs” [2] are a recognition of the value and importance of secular studies (see Torah Umadda:Torah and secular knowledge), a commitment to equality of education for both men and women, and a full acceptance of the importance of being able to financially support oneself and one’s family (see Torah im Derech Eretz: Earning a livelihood); see below.
[edit]Ideological spectrum
[2] Among the issues have been the extent to which Modern Orthodoxy should cooperate with the more liberal denominations, support secular academic pursuits combined with religious learning, and embrace efforts to give women a larger role in Jewish learning and worship;[5] the acceptability of modern textual criticism as a tool for Torah study is also debated.[6] For further discussion, see Orthodox Judaism: Diversity within Orthodox Judaism; Joseph B. Soloveitchik: Debate over world view; Torah im Derech Eretz: Interpretation.
To the ideological right, the line between Haredi and Modern Orthodox has blurred in recent years; some have referred to this trend as “haredization” [7]. In addition to increasing stringency in adherence to Halakha, many Modern Orthodox Jews express a growing sense of alienation from the larger, secular culture.[7] (“Western civilisation has moved from what was once called the Judeo-Christian ethic to a consumer-driven, choice-fixated culture… Such a world is not chol but chiloni, not secular but secularist. It is impermeable to the values of kedushah.”[8] [and many] [7] Although defining themeselves as “centrist”, institutions here include the Orthodox Union (Union of Orthodox Jewish Congregations of America), the Rabbinical Council of America, and the Rabbi Isaac Elchanan Theological Seminary.
Adherents on the ideological left have begun to develop new institutions that aim to be outward looking whilst maintaining a discourse between modernity and halakhah. The resultant “Open Orthodoxy” seeks to re-engage with secular studies, Jews of all denominations and global issues. Some within this movement have experimented with orthodox egalitarianism where gender equality solutions are found through halakhah. This has led to women taking on more leadership roles. Others in this movement are increasingly re-engaging with social justice issues from a halakhic point of view.[9] See Yeshivat Chovevei Torah, Shalom Hartman Institute, Hebrew Institute of Riverdale, Partnership minyan, Shira Hadasha, MigdalOr.
“What’s with all this sinas chinam? Where’s your ahavas yisroel? We’re all Jews, except we believe Moshiach has come and that we can pray to him instead of Hashem. It’s a minor hashkafic difference, like what color socks you wear on shabbos. You ‘snags’ are sonei yisroel. We need more achdus!” —my local Jews for J*s*s rep.
oy vey kids, check there where he discusses the members of the shuls being “octegenarians”. I will hopefully get a copy of the book.
It’s a machlokes between the Rambam and Ramban what happens when moshiach comes. We’ll be in Eretz Yisroel, which is a much more suitable climate for sukkah sleeping.
Of course men are interested in externals. They were 2,000 years ago during the dances of tu b’av. why should it be different now?
Dr. Seuss, check out the info at identifyingchaba.org and on the wikipedia page about messianic chabad. Then tell me that this was an isolated slip of the tongue.
Moshe Rabbeinu’s grave was hidden so people wouldn’t daven to it. So yes, if someone said Moshe runs the world, it’s avodah zarah. Hashem hu ha’elo-him.
Many chabadskers say tachanun on 3 Tammuz, even though they skip tachanun on the yartzeits of every other rebbe. The “LChaim” newsletter says ‘the Rebbe shlit”a’ 17 years after his passing and has a section called “living with the Rebbe”. He said what he meant and he meant what he said.
You can’t call it a mistake if he meant to say it.
It was banned, but Rav Chaim Kanievsky retracted. This all happened back in May.
They’re not called trophy husbands- they’re called sugar daddies. They’re the men who can shower their wives with fancy clothing, jewelry, etc.
Dr. Seuss: I would have to think that he misspoke and no one caught it at the moment. I’m sure he said he misspoke to anyone that asked him. He wasn’t making a public speech and there isn’t a need for him to issue a press release saying he misspoke.
Sure, I accidentally say “Jesus runs the world” all the time. Whoops. (disclaimer:not)
This was a PUBLIC speech, and this clip is from the PUBLIC video. And this isn’t some backwater sholiach. This is the head of West Coast Chabad, the head of the Chabad Telethon, and no stranger to public speaking. Rumors of “Elokistim” and “Boreinu”niks abound. Just google the phrases. So when a very public chabad shaliach accidentally affirms the rumors publicly, he better retract them, or have other Lubavitchers retract and say he misspoke. the silence is deafening.
I showed the post to a Lubavitcher, and my friend showed it to two others, and all three defended the video instead of claiming he misspoke. but don’t take my word for it. Show the clip to your local Shliach and ask him about it. Google “Rebbe God” or “elokistim” and you will see that there is strong evidence for this belief being very widespread. Rabbi Cunin just proved how widespread it is.
Hashem runs the world, and Ain Od Milvado. Hashem Echad.
2cents, the youtube link put in by the mod shows Rabbi Cunin, a mainstream Lubavitch leader, making the claim in front of an audience, with nobody contradicting him, and no public retraction.
Ain od milvado. Hashem echad. Lo livado ra’ui lehispallel. these are matters of basic emuna.
Romanian is some kind of meat place in
Chicago. Best pastrami EVER. There used to be some yeshivish guy in my place who lived in chicago. I kept asking him to get me pastrami when he came back from bein hazmanim and he came thru for me once. It was worth it.
What is “survivor”?
what about charn’s quote from the Rav’s own words? Did the Rav lie?
When a mainstream leader can come out and say “The Rebbe runs the world!” (As opposed to Hashem) and nobody within the movement has an issue with it, it shows a deep problem. This is the point Derech was trying to goad someone into making, So I’ll do him the favor and make it.
Chanie, when moshiach comes we will all be in the beis hamikdash and will need to take the arba minim for 7 days medi’oraysah.
Swipe from http://www.identifyingchabad.org
A Note On Hatred.
We have long noted how Lubavitchers often respond to even the mildest and most balanced criticism with the charge of sinas chinum. This is true no matter how objective or even friendly is the tone of any letter or book on the subject. This is also true regardless of the lack of any evidence of actual bad feeling. It has unfortunately become utterly predictable that the principle reactions to any suggestion that there might be some problems in Chabad ideology or practice consist of deeply emotional (and often incoherent) accusations of personal hatred and venom.
This is a real shame because it makes it virtually impossible for anyone to engage in intelligent and productive dialogue on the issues that really matter.
Bar Shattya is trying to make a point, that segulos are only as reliable as the source, and that many segulos might be darchei emori.
Or not.
I’d sooner believe he has a wife than a Romanian sausage.
