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This is in response to flatbush27 comment: ” its just not how a Bas Yisroel acts even on Purim”. I accidently posted it earlier in the wrong thread.
Alcohol breaks down the boundaries of modesty much faster than costumes that are inherently modest. If you ban women’s costumes, I would argue to restrict alcohol from women to such an extent that “sipping from the Kiddush cup” would only be barely permitted. Even the author of a very stringent book on Tznius (modesty) permits “loud” clothing in cultures that this is the norm. On Purim loud (but modest) clothing are the norm.
Alcohol breaks down the boundaries of modesty much faster than costumes that are inherently modest. If you ban women’s costumes, I would argue to restrict alcohol from women to such an extent that “sipping from the Kiddush cup” would only be barely permitted. Even the author of a very stringent book on Tznius (modesty) permits “loud” clothing in cultures that this is the norm. On Purim loud (but modest) clothing are the norm.
“and are able to do the right thing.” And are not mevatel zman (wasting time) on this blog!!!
Very often they are trying to reproduce characters out of the past.
If they go for accuracy the standard of tznius will likely be higher than what they noramlly wear.
“Do you think people should get drunk on Purim or not?”
Yes, if you are able to resurrect anyone you might kill (chas v’shalom) due to your drunkedness.
No, otherwise.
Everyone seems to have different experiences with their c”y, even in the same city in terms of spoilage. Some of us are zoche to the nes of it not spoiling, some of us not; just like some of us have their Shabbos candles stay lit 168 hours, others only for 4 hours.
Back to reality: For those used to eating and snacking dairy products, being fully Makpid on Cholov Yisroel is a major Avodah of self improvement. And as I have heard from those with real teaching and guidance responsibility, especially close to Yom Kippur, one has to prioritize the areas he or she will work on. For most of us, me included working on what comes out of the mouth is more important.
We have more pressing issues than this.
A focus on Shemiras HaLashon (prohibitions against derogatory speech), for example can yield improvements in Biblical issues and actually improve unity among us.
I believe that the Torah leadership is aware of all the sources The Big One brings, but has decided to focus on other issues.
New York City is a very fashion aware place.
To survive in NYC you have to be aware how you are dressed regardless of your religious affiliation.
“Dress for Success” was published in New York City.
For men / boys: Obama mask or just the ears
For ladies / girls: Palin mask or just the glasses
If you need to be bipartisan then both the ears and glasses
“if you saw a choshuve talmid chacham wearing jeans”
He had to do some work with his hands, either to fix something around the house or to make some money.
When a positive development occurs to the Jewish people we are obligated to recognize it as a positive development and recognize the hand of G-d in it.
If the Jewish State had not occured there would have been far less Torah learning and far more intermarriage in the past 60 years.
I admit that there are some negatives, but we still must see the positives.
Even without the Jewish State (G-d forbid) the Arab lands would have become extremely hostile for any continuation of Jewish life there.
The canard that the Arab world has become so repressive only because of the formation of Israel is the cenrtral BLOOD LIBEL of our times.
I failed to explain myself properly. I always believe that G-d is in the drivers seat controlling Jewish history. We will never understand G-d’s reasons for allowing the holocaust to occur. But afterwards the Jewish people were so demoralized that if He had not restored us to our land and granted us some sovereignty, we would have (G-d forbid) given up. In Egypt 3300 years ago the Jews were also on the edge of complete demoralization and Redemption had to come before we gave up.
Based upon this line of thinking those who say the entire Jewish State is from the Sitra Achra (closest English translation – “dark side of the force) are in fact denying G-d’s Providence with the Jewish people.
Joseph: Your virulent attacks on Zionism and the Jewish State are attacks on one of the pillars of my faith.
Satmar is short for Saint Mary.
Jothar’s Maharal puts G-d back in the drivers seat of Jewish history.
As long as no one starts saying that a certain Kippah color, style or size is Halacha L’Moshe Me’Sinai.
As of now, the vast majority of Torah learned in the USA is in English. The vast majority of Torah learned in Israel is in Hebrew.
In the USA this is based on a decision of Daas Torah one or two generations ago that Torah was to be taught in English, not Yiddish. (There may be some Chassidic groups that have their own separate Daas Torah and took a different path in this matter.)
Sometimes the Home Front needs attention. Are any of you married with small children?
We are splitting hairs here. Something can be both assur and not bekovidig. In sports, before certain performance enhancers became formally assur they were first not bekovidig.
Here is another example: A former President earns $10 Million a year in speaking engagements. It is perfectly legal, but it lowers the status of the presidency. Begging or relying on government assistance is not assur, but it surely is not bekovidig.
The word of the day is “bikovidig”. Let us put it into English. It means “honorable”. We just heard that some baseball player who was paid $25 million a year has admitted to using steroids. That is not bikovidig. Sometimes you have to make choices. You are a Kohen from an illustrious family but the trust fund just ran out. You have 2 choices:
A) You can continue wearing your suit and go begging.
B) You can dress down and do some manual labor which is profitable and legitimate.
According to the Gemara B) is more bikovidig than A).
“and the floods of assimilation and secularism. “
When a boy hear words in Torah in a language he does not underdstand he is more likely to be swept up in such floods.
Presidents only get one Performance Review that counts. For Obama it comes on Tuesday November 6, 2012. Regardless how we voted this past November we pray for success.
I studied for 4 years in a Haredei Mesivta (Ner Israel) many years ago, but I can not recall such intensive hatred for the Medina that I hear coming from Joseph, notpashut and now Itzik_s. Gentlemen, study the Gemara in Gittin that is studied on Tisha B’av. There is a huge difference between Jewish sinners and the evil of non-Jewish despots.
Those who have a much more positive view of the State also have Torah leaders to rely upon. However, these Torah leaders are considered as naught in the eyes of the right wing hardliners.
In this coffee room, the moderates always show a generally higher level of Torah scholarship than the hardliners. Knowing what is Biblical, what is Rabbinic or just a custom counts. Being able to quote from the Neturei Karta web site (probably partially underwritten by Iran) does not.
Joseph, I saw on another thread that you wished we had a Sanhedrin. With a Sanhedrin comes a Melech (king). Under a Melech those who refused to serve in the army or those who questioned the legitimacy of the State were dealt with harshly (Mored BeMalchus).
Also, under a Sanhedrin, stringencies desired by a vocal pious minority would be voted down by the majority.
Unfortunately, you and I will never see eye to eye. I see the State of Israel as a birth. Per your comment above, you see it r’l (G-d forbid) as a death.
Joseph,
As I understand the majority of the Torah leadership of Agudas Yisroel was against the formation of the Jewish State before 1948 and has accepted it as a Fait Accompli (an accomplished fact)afterward. Most likely the opinions of 4 of the 5 leaders you mentioned above were from before 1948.
Fait Accompli example: A couple gets married against our advise and have children. Afterwards we will pray for their happiness and success.
Joseph, do you recognize the Jewish sovereignty over any part of what you call “Eretz Yisroel” or are you in the camp with the Iranians who can not tolerate any Jewish sovereignty in the Middle East? What is “OP”?
Joseph, what if the Gadol who you followed told you to stop worshiping in the temple in Jerusalem and go instead to the new temples in Dan and Beth-el? It happened before – shortly after King Solomon passed away.
HaKaras HaTov: On Israel Independence Day the Israeli flag is flown at the Ponovez Yeshiva.
Joseph, Most Haredim do not share your intense hatred for the “Zionists”. They realize they live in a State that is at least as conducive to learning Torah as in our most benign Golus (exile) situations. Those most consumed with this hatred are the Neturei Karta who are considered traitors even by the Satmar.
notpashut and Joseph: Your overwhelming hatred of the “Zionists” has blinded you to the good that G-d has done to the nation of Israel by allowing us to reclaim some sovereignity over the land of Israel. No, the State is not perfect, but it is sure better than under the Czar. The amount of Torah learning that goes on in Israel is enormous, much more than was allowed to go on in the European Shtetel. Lack of HaKaras HaTov (recognition of the good) is a serious character defect.
Let us use the proper English word for this topic: Israel
But for something to be prohibited because of “Chukas Akum” (literally acts / customs associated with idol worship) it has to be associated with idolatry (even acts of idolatry that are only prohibited to Jews), immorality or violence.
When use of an item or material has a clear cut practical reason (such as economy or comfort), that is evidence pointing away from Chukas Akum.
This post has shed light on 3 questions I have had:
1) Why did our forefather Yaakov (Jacob) make such an issue of being buried in Israel?
2) Why did the central prayer of Shemoneh Esray (literally “18” also known as the “Amidah” – prayer said standing) get fixed?
3) Why is the form of Tachanun (prayers after the Shemonah Esray) also fixed, especially the longer V’hu Rachum we say on Mondays and Thursdays?
Answer: Our home and destiny is in the land of Israel. Our spiritual reference points must be in Israel, not outside it. We pray for the full national and spiritual restoration in Israel, not for the re-creation of the European Shtetel.
Joseph, please provide your source(s) that one must be on a high Madrayga (spiritual level) to speak in Loshon HaKodesh.
Everyone seems to be on a high enough Madrayga to speculate about Kabbalistic matters that are beyond this world, but to say a few words in loshon HaKodesh, not.
flatbush27, how does looking “goyish” translate into assur? We are dealing with a material that is being used because it is robust and suited for real work, not because it glorifies idolatry, violence or immorality. Are you going to declare that farming is not “Minhag Yisroel”?
“Loshon Hakodesh was not an everyday street language for mundane matters, nor should it be.”
Joseph: Please supply support for both parts of this statement.
flatbush27,
Lawyers and bankers wear suits. Farmers, car mechanics and laborers wear jeans. Doctors wear white coats.
As a hardware engineer I wear something in between. If I wore a suit, I would lose credibility with my peers.
All these above occupations are legitimate for Jews.
Jeans were invented for work, not idolatry or immorality.
Our spiritual reference point always has been Israel or Eretz Yisroel, not Europe.
I will never understand why thousands of Jews make a pilgrimage to Uman.
Our true Loshon Kodesh has been and always will be Hebrew.
The most important goal in teaching Torah is that the students understand it.
For hundreds of years it meant teaching in Yiddish, in this country (USA) our Torah leaders from 1-2 generations ago directed that Torah be taught in English.
Joseph, the Torah was not given to the “ministering angels”.
One criterion I have heard is “not to daven in clothing that person would not been seen outside in the street with”.
Joseph, the only people who appear regularly in court in this country are lawyers.
Davening 3 times a day is an obligation on lawyers, doctors, farmers, laborers and others. Expecting laborers and farmers to “suit up” daily for Mincha may be a little too much.
Chocolate hamentashin from a bakery in the middle of Yerushalayim,
poppy seed ones from my wife … wow only six weeks!!!
Avoiding talking in shul during davening (prayer services) is a difficult task and requires planning.
On an individual level one can a) go to a quick Hashkamah (early) minyan (service); b) daven (pray) in a shul where the Rabbi insists on no talking; c) choose a seat close to the front (Mizrach) and if all fails, step out of shul for a few minutes and do the talking outside.
At the shul level a) the Rabbi can insist on no talking; b) the Gabbi can keep the service moving along at a “good clip”. Our shul has replaced MiShebayruch’s (prayers for individuals getting called to the Torah accompanied with a pledge to the synagogue) with silent donations through pledge cards.
Most chickens sold in this country (USA) are not kosher, but we need chicken. We also need access to the modern marketplace AKA the internet to make a living and buy certain needs in a cost efficient manner. Without TV life still goes on and in fact quality of life can be better without. Students do better in school. Both children and adults are more active physically and healthier.
SJSinNYC, how long does davening take in your shul and how long in your cousin’s shul?
I would consider this category to be very destructive. They are in effect using Halacha as a weapon against others. Often they have some status of power and they are using our religion as a tool to exercise their power. I for one would rather daven without a minyan than associate myself with such evil, even if I was at the far end of the shul away from them. I very much doubt such people have “pure intentions”, and even if they do such behavior is so destructive that “Shogeg” (lack of intention to sin) is not much of a defense.
Most charedi communities in the US do not ban the internet.
48 years ago today the new President took off his hat and it was downhill for the hat business.
Minhag HaMakom (community dress standards) plays a big role in issues like this.
If the Rabbi and community leaders dress one way, following them is probably safest.
Schools can make the rules they want and donors can refuse to support schools that they deem to be overly selective. Squeezing the parents’ ability to earn a living through the internet appears to be self defeating for almost any school. In all fairness to parents, rules should generally be disclosed to them before enrollment.
A Real College is one that the job that you get after graduation pays enough that the loans you took out for tuition are not much of a burden!!!
The focus has to be upon creating Kosher Money!!!
ujm: Try this. Go to your nearest Charedi Torah leader and tell him you want to form a Tznius Patrol to attack local women not dressed properly. If you are a womean, also tell him you want to start wearing a Burqa. If you are a man tell him you want your wife in a Burqa.
More bashing of YU.
If it were not for YU, there would be tens of thousands that would be lost to Torah Judaism.
When I said above “most zealous in the area of Tznius” I was referring to those who take it upon themselves to enforce Tznius on others, and those who adopt extreme levels to call attention to themselves. There is widespread agreement in Orthodox Jewish circles that religious enforcement in inappropriate nowadays.