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“starts having a chiuv to perform the mitzvos”
That is equally true for girls.
The mitzvos might be different and the triggering age is different, but the chiuv (obligation) is the same.
For many girls the Bat or Bas Mitzvah if done correctly can be a strong boost start for a lifetime of Torah and Mitzvos.
We live in a new generation and each family with a girl approaching age 12 needs to get advise from their own local Rabbi.
One summer at a good sleep away camp can accomplish more in terms of Chinuch (education) than a Bar Mitzvah in many cases.
Ask the boy.
I question the practice of fathers (who are not practicing Klei Kodesh) using their Rabbinic title in the invitations.
On one hand it may be improper display of frumkeit.
On the other hand the knowledge that one will get opportunities later in life to display the title, may be needed to spur one along in his own learning.
Perhaps the title will spur the son in his learning?
One famous righteous convert in the time of Hillel was initially spurred on to convert and learn by the prospect (in his mind) of becoming the high Priest.
Max well, unfortunately pushing the ideal you seek is going to create real difficulties for the Hanhala (administration) of Lakewood Cheder, Telshe, Phily, etc.
Having students not motivated in a part of their program creates big difficulties for the school and in some cases real situations that denigrate Torah and Judaism in the eyes of people.
Then these HS talmidim are obligated to follow the program of the school that their parents enrolled them in.
“Josh31, these talmidim are desirous of following the path defined by the Rema, Rav Moshe, Rav Ahron, Rav Elya, Rav Shach, Rav Boruch Ber, Rav Elchonon, etc.”
Talmidim of the age range we are discussing in this thread need to follow the path as advised by their own teachers.
Those who really feel that high school studies are not needed should go to mesiftahs that don’t have high school studies, so as not to undermine the high school programs in mesiftahs that do have them. Those who want to stop secular studies before high school can also move to a community in Israel that has that approach.
Another option may be certain stateside Chasidic communities.
Administrators in Yeshiva Ketanas (eg. Lakewood Cheder) and mesiftas (eg. Telshe) are fighting daily against this anti-“secular studies” attitude, which is probably driven more by laziness than by a true desire to learn more Torah. The attitudes expressed by Max well and holtzichfest above will only make their work more difficult.
And even bochurim who are truly driven by a desire to learn more Torah will generally be advised by their own Mechanchim to be diligent in their “secular studies”.
On a more serious note:
Tznius is probably the most difficult area of Chinuch. Those who are involved must have the proper Hashkafah, intent and strategy.
I believe the high school of Rav Moshe Feinstein, Mesivtha Tifereth Jerusalem did have secular studies.
Rav Elchonon and Rav Boruch Ber were well schooled in the language of their future Talmidim (students) which was then Yiddish.
Here in the US (except perhaps for a few Chassidish communities) any future Torah teacher is obligated to be well schooled in English.
“Besides, we’d have to add another supplement to the Hamodiah for such a list,”
Wrong forum. This list will be done through a new thread in the YWN Coffee Room. It will be a “sticky” thread titled “Unrepentant Sinners List”.
A Talmid Chacham (Torah scholar) must present himself in a respectful manner. The Talmud has harsh words for those who do not do so in the manner of dress.
In the present day world not having at least a basic secular education has the same effect as walking the streets with grease soiled clothing.
The 238 version is relatively stable, the 235 is what can be made into bombs and is what destroyed Hiroshima 65 years ago.
There appears to be more Uranium 235 in the YWN Coffee Room in the last few weeks:
Definitions of moderator on the Web:
* any substance used to slow down neutrons in nuclear reactors
* in the Presbyterian church, the officer who presides over a synod or general assembly
* someone who presides over a forum or debate or coffee room
* someone who mediates disputes and attempts to avoid violence
wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn
* In nuclear engineering, a neutron moderator is a medium which reduces the speed of fast neutrons, thereby turning them into thermal neutrons capable of sustaining a nuclear chain reaction involving uranium-235.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moderator_(Nuclear_Reactor)
They had to acquire the required knowledge BEFORE they got to sit on the Sanhedrin.
In general, widespread hostility towards useful knowledge and work is a recent phenomenon.
Helpful, please define “hamon hoam”.
For one thing, each farmer had to be able to identify which animal was valid for bringing as a Korbon and had to be ready to defend the Jewish nation as needed. Recall Moshe’s and Devorah’s criticism of those not willing to fight.
Each farmer needed to know enough about the calendar and the land geography to make it to Jerusalem in time for the Pesach offering.
If he ever sold any grain to those who only understood another language, he had to understand the customer’s language.
If you have sons, Baltimore has a strong “Yiddish” softball league for them.
Of the 4 items above I listed 3 of them needed to be known much wider than just by the Sanhedrin. Even knowledge specifically needed by the Sanhedrin needed to be acquired before being appointed.
If every male Jew has an obligation to know “all of the Torah” that has to include the laws of animal Teraifos, and that knowledge requires knowing bovine anatomy.
“Why would someone wear a kippah serugah “
I wear it for the specific purpose of showing that I am of those who recognize the Hand of G-d in the Jews re-gaining sovereignty over the Land of Israel and the victory of the Six Day War.
According to those who see no secular studies as an ideal:
How did the members of Sanhedrin learn 70 languages?
How did Bais Din learn the math for calculating the calendar?
How was the knowledge needed to establish the nature of blemishes in animals for Korbanos learned?
How did the tribe of Yehudah learn the skills of war?
This is a dangerous attitude “forced to tolerate”. Children raised in families with such an attitude will not be motivated.
We can speculate for the exact calculations that were made by the Torah leadership in the US two generations ago, but the decision was made to have high school studies.
Specifically, in Telshe, the entering ninth graders were told to strive for making A’s by the Rosh Yeshiva (as I have been told).
For any Yeshiva bochur to neglect his secular studies program in his own Yeshiva is to be Porek Ol (discarding responsibility).
Let us go back in time.
3 or 4 generations ago when a man wore a hat and jacket in the street he was sending one message, “I am a diligent bread earner, not a bum.”
And if R’L he was unemployed, as during the depression (lo aleinu), he was saying, “This is not the state I want to be in and I am making every effort to rectify the situation.”
The Bnos Melochim concept also puts an obligation on men to be good and diligent providers.
Oomis, I do agree with you that there is a tendency to scapegoat women. The real scapegoat in the temple service of Yom Kippur had to be a MALE goat.
Hence, the next time you hear women being blamed for all the ills, remind him that a female is Pasul (not valid) for the scapegoat.
“talmidei chachomim who disrespected each other” was the cause of the plague against Rabbi Akiba’s students.
Baseless hatred of fellow Jews is the most considered cause of the second Destruction. This sin is a pitfall for both men and women.
Minhag HaMakom plays huge role here.
You can have one shul with a full supply of spare jackets in every size and a reliable air conditioning system.
Set the thermostat low enough and behold everyone has a jacket on.
And you can have a shul where only real Klei Kodesh wear jackets.
Gavra, the Kesubah treats work as an obligation, and you treat work as something that needs a special heter.
Those who have the means of support (with a trust fund or wife with a good job, for example) and learn full time are not putting themselves in the RSBY category. (See my previous post.)
“bichlal lav ata shomeah hen. So some did like R’ Shimon bar Yochai and were successful.”
For someone to put themselves on the level of the few in the time of the Gemara who did like RSBY and were successful takes a lot of guts!!!
You better know yourself well and still consult with several leaders before putting yourself in that exalted category.
The Gemara concluded that many did like Rabbi Yishmael and were successful and many did like Rabbi Shimom Bar Yochai and were not successful.
“Over a Lav (such as Bittul Torah)”
At the most it is a Bittul Aseh, not a Lav.
Why do his parents want him to go to college?
Some of their concerns may be valid.
They are not obligated to support him indefinitely in learning, especially if he has no long term plan.
He may have a valid plan for Meleches Kodesh that address the valid parts of their concerns.
Does he have a well thought out plan to go into Meleches Kodesh such as teaching? or is the only plan to stay in learning as long as possible?
Will all the money that will support his learning be fully Kosher and not cause any diminution Kavod HaTorah?
Will his lack of training to make a living ever create a Nisayon (spiritual test or challenge) for him in monetary matters?
if his plan is to go into teaching, is he willing to take courses that will enhance his ability to teach?
Emoticon613, you are right the external influences the internal.
But having a bar mitzvah boy dressed as a Rebbe can have direct negative effects on him. He will look down on those not dressed likewise. He will disdain his secular high school studies. I have even seen such dress affect Kibud Av.
“dressing like a talmid chacham can make it easier for us to get there.”
In many cases it can come to make you think you are already there.
If we are to have any Kavod HaTorah we can not have entire communities dressed in the Levush of Talmidei Chachamim (Torah scholars).
Those who represent themselves to the world as Torah Scholars are held to a very high standard. This standard is so high that most of us are not there, and certainly not bar mitzvah boys who have not had many years to develop themselves to that standard.
To have teenagers carry the flag of “Bnei Torah” may spur some of them to these higher standards eventually, but the flag is going to get soiled.
“why don’t rabbanim (note the term rabbanim, not rabbis) wear colored shirts?”
They are the ones who should wear the white shirts during the week so that we respect them and their roles.
But a Talmid should not dress as a Rebbe.
In the time of the Beit HaMikdash the white Bigdai Kehuna showed the special role of those who were most directly involved in the Divine service.
See the Gemara in Shabbos 119B. Different factors that led to the Desstruction of the first Temple are brought down: Rabbi Yitzchak says because they equated the great and small and Isiah 24:2, “And the nation will be like the Kohain…”. Later a reason is brought by Rabbi Yehudah because they disgraced Talmidei Chachamim (Torah scholars). If boys just past bar mitzvah dress like established Talmidei Chachamim, then it is very easy to disrespect rabbanim.
During the week for the rest of us when there is a a need to dress bekavodig, a solid light blue shirt will do.
The real comparison needs to be done between the old moderate Charedei approach that was dominant in the USA until Sept. 2004 and the new right wing version introduced Sept. 2004 by the Slifkin banners.
The old version was successful in attracting many to Torah Observance. Orthodox Jewry experienced tremendous growth.
We will have to see in the long term whether the new post 2004 version will experience growth.
The recent sharp rightward shift in some communities is certainly not helping. Boys who are not on the “future Rosh Yeshiva” track can be made to feel that they are second class Jews. Girls who can not keep up with the latest Tznius Hidurim are pushed out. The great narrowing of acceptable Hashkafah driven by the Slifkin ban drives out those who have a rationalist way of thinking.
For these 3 situations above the hope has to be to link with a moderate Charedei or Torah U’Mada community as I have done. Best is to find a moderate mentor (aseh le-cha Rav) that you can relate to.
An incident of abuse by someone who is supposed to represent Torah authority is much more likely to drive a child or teen OTD than abuse from the non Jewish world.
“Bochurim in yeshiva are the elite of Klal Yisroel, and as such should wear uniforms as any military officer would.”
Wow!!!
Most teenagers (even Jewish) are not military academy material.
With Moshe Rabenu military service started at 20, in most modern countries at 18, but theprof1 wants them regimented at 13.
The Rambam talks about such an elite “Me she-nasa libo” as the nowadays Shevet Levi. But he was talking about those who voluntarily choose this, not young boys shoved into such a role.
I think the simplest understanding is that without Talmud Torah, you will not know how to keep any of the Mitzvos properly.
“when most Kolel guys put on colored shirts (almost all change how they dress) once they start working?”
Same as when Kohanim leave the Beit HaMikdash – the white Bigdei Kehuna come off.
I believe that any organization that sells goods or services should have an obligation at the first time they advertise or disclose prices to also advise what amounts of tips are expected.
Moving in this direction will probably need to be done at the national level.
This will avoid consumers and workers from being “ripped off”.
I did visit a place, Italy where prices always included all taxes and “service charges”.
I believe workers and consumers are happier there and businesses can still make a profit since all the competitors have to follow the same practices.
The focus of “yeshivish levush” seems to be on separating from others that are not as right wing frum.
This is done by having boys that have just become Bar Mitzvah dress as true Klei Kodesh should. This puts young boys on such a “pedestal”.
Is this being done to make them look down on Baalei Batim, so that they do not “chas veshalom” aspire to become like them???
The present “yeshivish levush” is a recent innovation.
See pictures of bochurim from the best pre WW2 yeshivas in Eastern Europe.
This is the argument for keeping the “second half of the Omer”. It keeps this partial Aveilus completely out of Nissan.
However, it appears that the majority keep the “first half of the Omer” which includes a week of Nissan.
Argument for “first half of the Omer” is that it is effectively shorter than the “second half of the Omer” by about a week; and we do not want to fill the year up with long stretches of mourning.
Some things are Fait Accompli.
However, if you are a girl and can’t do without kitniot for 8 days, you tell the Shadchan (matchmaker) – “Sephardi”.
I do not believe the OU certifies or approves anything on the label, they only certify that the contents inside have no prohibitions.
For example, we have Santa Clauses and Easter bunnies with the OU on them.
Yanky55, do you have a specific source for this?
So far I have only heard about using grape juice when there are health issues.
For some being Meikil (being lenient) with the Daled Kosos allows one to be Machmir (being stringent) with the Mitzvos of the next morning.
What is the best trade off?
Has anyone heard from a reliable authority on this matter?