Joseph

squeak, we’ll have to agree to disagree about your point on a small part of this discussion. But you haven’t explained why you disagree – other than to state you do. Perhaps you can in a further comment, otherwise there isn’t much else to respond to. (There is also no reason for you to be surprised I would quote any Gadol – including Rav Hirsch ZT’L.)

Jothar: Rav Schwab was perhaps the first to say the we are the true “modern” Yidden, and MO is anything but modern. As far as labels, I agree with you, but as pointed out in the OP it is the MO themselves that “proudly” label themselves and consider themselves a “movement.” Bnei Torah never assumed any labels, even though some (i.e. “ultra”, “chareidi”, even “Orthodox”) were promulgated upon us by outsiders.

A600KB –

In a strictly technical sense Austritt was breaking off all communal ties with the Reform. But by looking at the broader picture as to why Rav Hirsch ZT’L insisted on Austritt, it surely included the secular culture, values, and environment that the Reform synthesized with.

Jothar, You are glossing over at least two critical points: 1) The difference between a b’dieved and a l’chatchilah. And 2) Whether it is needed for Parnasa purposes or not.

Per popular request… The Summary:

A) The Modern Orthodox consider themselves a separate movement from traditional Orthodoxy.

B) Modern Orthodoxy was created for the purpose of integrating into secular/Western society. It reluctantly believed that it had no choice but to do so, in order to maintain any semblance of Orthodox Judaism. They believed traditional Orthodoxy would disappear from the American scene, and they had no choice but to compromise traditional Torah values. It is obvious today not only were they wrong, but Ultra Orthodoxy has flourished by previously unimaginable proportions.

C) One time this wayward movement posed a danger to Torah Orthodoxy, and Rabbonim condemned it in no uncertain terms. That threat has mostly subsided, with Bnei Torah today not taking the MO seriously anymore. Gedolei Yisroel have and continue to plead with them to return to the fold, and await their return with open arms. Baruch Hashem they have notably moved to the right in recent decades.

(All these points are expanded upon in detail, with quotations, in the OP.)

The Chasam Sofer in Parsha Beshalach states clearly that certain secular knowledge is useful for learning certain Torah topics, such as cow anatomy being useful for shechitah, and arithmetic for Eruvin and Sukkah. But that before we embark on obtaining secular knowledge – and of course that means only to the extent that it is useful for our Torah studies – we must first fill ourselves with Torah-only knowledge. After we are strong in Torah, only then can we move to acquire the useful secular knowledge that we need for our Torah studies.

He quotes the Rambam, who he describes as “the father of philosophy” in our religion, in Hilchos Yesodei HaTorah, stating that a person may not learn philosophy until after he has “filled his stomach” with Shas and Poskim, which are the things, and only the things, that bring us Olam Habah. Then he quotes the Rashba, saying that there is a cherem against learning any secular studies if you are under age 25! The he quotes the Gemora in Brachos “Keep your children away from science” (higayon, as some meforshim translate it), noting that the Gemora is directing its prohibition at “your children”, but not at the adults, for adults, who are already advanced in Torah knowledge, need some secular knowledge, such as cow biology (I keep emphasizing that so that we do not make the error of thinking that the secular knowledge that we need is a college education). But it is dangerous for us to pursue it until we are armed and ready with a Torah foundation. This is because someone with a Torah perspective looks at the value and culture of of secular studies differently than does someone ignorant of Torah. And we do want to get the proper perspective.

It’s kind of like firemen putting out a fire. They have to (a) dress in their heat-resistant protective outfits, and (b) run into the fire and put it out. But of course, they have to do it in the right order.

And that is indeed what it boils down to – do we value the Torah’s standards of education more than that of the secular world or vice versa? The choice is simple: All the secular “education” that you get will be useless to you in the next world. There, they will not ask you if you know how many US presidents were re-elected in history, or whether you are familiar with the policies of Chairman Mao, or if you know how to program a computer. They will bring a Sefer Torah scroll to you and ask “do you know what it says in here?” The more you know of that, the more you will be considered “educated”. The less you know, the more you will be considered ignorant. So the question is – do I want to be educated on this world or on the next?

And here we thought that a secular education is expensive! Its much more expensive than you think – you can acquire it only at the expense of your time and effort that you could have been putting toward becoming educated in Olam Habah.

Two things, though. First, the prohibition is only to learn secular studies as a regular curriculum. To read about them occasionally in your spare time is permitted.