Joseph

Think Big,

Perhaps the more correct term for what you are describing is minhugim or customs of tznius, rather than “gray areas.” I think gray areas are understood to mean areas that the law is not entirely explicitly clear and requires additional input from our Rabbonim.

But even such areas that you are referring to (other than black & white halacha), the Rabbonim HAVE always provided guidance (including direct and specific) for. This is both applicable to addressing the local customs of tznius, as well as issues which you describe as “opinion” oriented, such as what is flashy. Yes, minhug hamokem does differ sometimes between communities, but the Rabbonim in each community do have a right and indeed a duty to define the specifics for their kehilos. So I think this thought that only women should be addressing such specifics stems from a 21st (or 20th) century approach towards gender, propogated by the secular world.

As far as dressing in style, I don’t have an issue per se with what you said, but do seriously question the notion that the eye-catching “styles” (more appropriately called styleless and bane) fresh off the Paris runway may be perfectly fine A YEAR OR SO later after the next round of trash “styles” is unleashed. They become no less eye-catcing with time, especially amongst our holy people who are not (or certainly should not be) prone to this pritzus a year, two years or even three years thereon. What is wrong, pray tell, with “last years” (gasp) styles? (Last year as an analogy, not necessarily literal.) Yes women are not men, but I’ve been wearing the same general “style” suit for the last 20 years.

Out of curiosity, could you share your personal thoughts on jean skirts? I don’t even mean from a tznius perspective, but rather from a Bas Yisroel’s kavod atmi perspective. If a Ben Torah wore jeans, I don’t think there is a “tznius” issue per se. But somehow I think you’ll agree with me that jeans is inappropriate for a Ben Torah. Personally I don’t see a difference in this regard between a Ben Torah and a Bas Yisroel. (And again not even broaching any tznius aspect to it.)

And finally (for the final time?) out of pure curiosity and on a completely unrelated note (and no offence intended!) You have mentioned previously that you have no computer at home and are unfamiliar with general internet facilities, yet you seemingly display a rather sophisticated knowledge on rather arcane matters such as internet-specific acronyms (i.e. imho) and even a knowledge of the going-ons in the YW archives (despite your short presence only made available in thanks to your vacation.) No imputations intended (really), but I’d love an explanation! (Not that you owe one 🙂

cantoresq,

You aren’t interested because you fear the truth you have heard. You are naive for denying that sometimes anti-semitism IS caused by certain actions committed by certain Jews.

To finish your foolish sentence lets change the person:

“Moreover, such sanguine protestations of faith didn’t stop the” Romans from piercing the taneh Rabbe Akiva’s body. “The extreme’s of” Rabbe Akiva’s “faith led to his unnecessary death.”

to help you understand what extreme foolishness you said.

__________________________________

Who cares if the Muslims suppress their own women, commit mutilation, have a Taliban, etc. This is their internal problems. What we have to worry about is how they act to us, not within their own. How they act to Jews today IS a result of the crimes the zionists committed.

Look up Rabbi Mitnick in the Brooklyn white pages (whitepages.com)

Think BIG, One thing I should take exception to is the contention that “That is the extent of what or rabbanim have been specifying from time immemorial.” The Rabbonim have always been specifying the boundaries of gray areas (in hilchas tznius and other halachos.) And saying “What is construed as tznius or lacking therof TODAY is largely “gray area”.” I’m not sure if your implying that tznius TODAY is different than the standards of previous generations, but if so I would take great exception to that as well. It may be true that different people (i.e. Chasidim, Litvaks, Sefardim, etc.) have different minhugim or standards. But they don’t change “for the next generation.”

(Think Big, Regarding your first point, I’m not sure. I do hear your point. But I suspect it depends on a case-by-case basis, and there is no hard and fast rule. If it is given appropriately [i.e. privately] it may be fine. Sometimes tochacha requires public embarrassment, if the person remains obstinate after getting private tochacha. In a tznius case, that may cause may harm than good i.e. other members of the public may inappropriately be called to attention of the problem, causing them to sin. So that surely may be an issue. But even the initial tochacha is questionable for the reasons you mention. But again, if done quietly perhaps it is proper. I would pose such a question to a halachic authority, since it does raise questions as you suggest.

But absolutely, the root causes must be addressed more so than the symptoms. But sometimes when the symptoms are flagrantly displayed, it is necessary to first address the symptom, and then the root.)

Jewess, Your story was the Berditchiver Rebbe indeed.

Think BIG:

Being that you are in girl’s chinuch (you said you work in a Bais Yaakov, no?), I’ll concede the expertise on this subject to you. And if giving the tochacha by a man is bound to fall on deaf ears, then it should not be given. And this would fall in line with what I said. Tochacha should only be given if there is a possibility of it making an impact. This is a prerequisite of tochacha itself.

BTW I’m not certain which Sefer you are referring to, but I think Rav Pesach Falk’s tznius Sefer is a wonderful addition to every Bas Yisroel’s library, and there is much to be learned from it. Our Rabbonim have been specifying the boundaries of dress from time immemorial.

cantoresq:

If your puzzled by a mitzvah, why not educate yourself regarding its details until the chiyuv is satisfied to your satisfaction? Yes, you are correct, if not for our recounting it, Amalek would be long forgotten. And that is precisely the point; we are specifically obligated to recount it — Zecher Amalek.

If you feel that you would not have the streghnth to do the mitzvah, the solution is to streghnthen yourself to be able to carry out the mitzvah. This would apply to any mitzvah. Killing an Amaleki, is not a “issue in our religion to bother me.” It is an OPPORTUNITY to fulfil a chiyuv and a mitzvah. And your approach of “I hope never to come upon the opportunity be tested in this manner” is simply wrong. Its a mitzvah. Not an aveirah to avoid or be “tested” with. You should look forward to have such an OPPORTUNITY.

Think Big asked “Jent may I ask you a personal question? Do you say mir/we when you talk too?”

He answered this towards the bottom of the page at:

http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/how-to-increase-tzinius/page/4

Yossi G, Like Matisyohu pointed out, the old man was an Amaleki — who we are OBLIGATED TO KILL (aside from the fact he was killed in an “accident”) — and a Nazi to boot.

rabbiofberlin, Actually what I said and what Think BIG stated are entirely in concurrence. In fact I have been amazed at the number of times our posts have expressed the same idea, in our own words, that when the moderator approved both simultaneously it amazed me at how great minds think alike. (Sorry for the lack of humility there.)

One correction I must make. Moshiach cannot come Erev Shabbos. I believe Eliyahu Hanavi CAN come with the 3-day advance notice on Erev Shabbos. So MOSHIACH WILL BE HERE MONDAY! BE PREPARED!

Pashuteh, Read what was discussed earlier. We are in galus. Everywhere. But pre-zionism we lived relatively benignly under the Arabs (certainly compared to our fate under the Christians.) Yes there were terrible incidents against Jews in the Arab lands. No need to cite them, it is a given. Even in America there have been terrible events, including a pogram in the heart of NYC that included a cold-blooded murder in the streets a mere 15 years ago. We are in golus in America and we were in golus in the Arab lands as well as the Christian lands. You can not cite a single area in our long and painful golus where you will not find NUMEROUS murderous events directed against the Yidden. Nevertheless, that being said, for every one of the “details of terrible pogroms in the Arab world throughout history” you can cite, there is a 100X multitude of worse murderous fates we suffered in the Christian lands. This fact remained true up until the advent of political zionism.

rabbiofberlin,

Please report back after you read the trial history of Kastner. Both the trial of him, and the trial of the Nazis he defended in Nuremberg. It is all in the public record. BTW what is your teretz to what Kastner’s fellow zionist Ben Hecht wrote of his activities?

Your response to Think BIG doesn’t address his points, i.e. of course no one advocates dismantlement, for obvious after-the-fact reasons, but they all still are anti-zionists nonetheless. As far as participation in the organs of the State, many poiskim felt it was a necessary evil in order to protect their interests as dwellers in Eretz Yisroel, not an ideal situation.

And your conclusion regarding the poor conditions for Yidden in Syria, Arabia, Yemen, etc. was already addressed by Think BIG. They were the RESULT of zionism. Of course it was no “paradise” and Jews were oppressed before zionism. Jews were oppressed THROUGHOUT GALUS, anywhere, anyhow. No Jew was ever immune from galus. Not in Christian Europe and not in the Arab lands. BUT the Jews in the Arab lands, like Think BIG so well pointed out, did live relatively benignly for 2,000 years compared to Christian Europe, from the beginning UNTIL THE ADVENT OF ZIONISM.

jO jO, You make good points. Which means you ought to brace yourself from the onslaught you are about to experience from the “21st century” crowd!

cherrybim, My simple mind fails to understand how if your dancing at a wedding (say in a circle) you can “not notice” the women dancing in the same room without a mechitza. Your eyes will at the very least inadvertently see them every time you circle around in dance. Perhaps this is too simplistic, and you can help me out in this practical inyan.

The “kulos” my Zeidas made in kashrus was to only eat food my Bubbas made for them.

There are quite a few “professional shadchanim” out there that will be more than happy to take your money for a shidduch.

In fact, I’d be quite weary of them.

cherrybim, Agreed, regarding the eitza tova to avoid machlocas by being maskum to the other side. My simple observation is that if both sides are agreeable and bending over backwards for the other side (an ideal situation), then the proper derech is to follow the minhugim of the Choson.

Regarding the copying, not everytime the goyim copy our minhugim do we stop the minhug. This is a delicate balance our Chachomim make decisions regarding (and it varies.)

I find the Rosh Yeshivos families having “mixed seating and no mechitzas” quite surprising, thats all. How do the woman dance without a mechitza? (Perhaps the most prominent tznius issue, amongst many in such a situation.)

Think BIG:

Why do you doubt the Mitzvah Tantz mentioned in the machzor vitri is not what today’s MT’s are based on? I think you are mistaken. I believe the people who’s minhug to have a MT do so based upon what the machzor vitri discusses.

rabbiofberlin: Check the Israeli Supreme Court transcripts from the 1950’s. What Will Hill mentioned is verifiable & factual history.

It is also discussed in the book written about the case by (the zionist) Ben Hecht, called “Perfidy.”

cherrybim, the rule is the couple follows the minhugim of the Choson. If this will cause machlokes, its best to be moichel (like you said.)

Many of the minhugim you compared to the goyim, are things the goyim copied the yidden (not vice versa.)

“Rosh Yeshiva families with mixed seating and no mechitzas”? Which Rosh Yeshivos?

You go to B&H!

rabbiofberlin: What is your son looking for? Maybe we can “chip in” this gevaldike inyan.

Sorry guys, it was tongue-in-cheek, non-literal pun intended, but came across incorrectly.