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just me, thank you. although I know other people from other Yeshivos with similar experiences. So I don’t think it is all that unusual.
mariner, np. out of curiosity, are you married and about how old are you?
I think Azi is a modern-day Avrohom Avinu. And in the absence of concrete evidence otherwise, so should you!
cantoresq, War was raging throughout the continent. Jews are always the first scapregoats. Atrocities were clearly being committed against the Jews. But Hungarian Jewry had an inkling about ANNIHILATION and CREMATORIAS?
Why was the Vrba report so shocking?
just me,
I don’t know the answer to Azi’s inquiry, but would you lecture Avrohom Avinu for stealing his fathers getchke? And what a lack of kibud av that is?
What if C’V someones parent was hiding Chazr in the house and eating it when no one was looking? I am certain that discarding the Chazar would be a mitzvah gedolah.
I am not extrapolating this to this situation. It may or may not be appropriate. Thats one of the reasons the Rabbonim are here for.
mariner, your disagreement is with rabbiofberlin, not me. rabbiofberlin writes Matisjahu, not Matisyahu.
rabbiofberlin,
Indeed I have read the full transcript of the Bilgurayer. My point was in response to cantoresq seeming suggestion that the speech acknowledged a widespread knowledge amongst Hungarian Jewry of the Nazi ym’s annihilation of European Jewry outside of Hungary. This speech made no such indication. And indeed Hungarian Jewry was oblivious to the systematic annihilation, otherwise the Vrba report would have not been so shocking, as cantoresq himself acknowledged earlier in this thread. If the masses were aware of the fate awaiting them, they would not get onto the deportation trains to Aushwitz. Which human being would walk onto such a train with that knowledge?
The speech itself did not advocate remaining in Europe, but rather was chizuk for the Klal. Indeed what means would the Klal have had to emigrate from Hungary even if they wanted to? Which country would accept them? At best, had they been aware of the systematic annihilation (had Kastner so informed the public what he knew from Vrba), they could merely hide, attempt escape, or resist deportation making the Germans/Hungarian Arrow Cross deportation/annihilation effort that much more difficult and less succesful. They would not have been able to murder 400,000 kedoshim so systematically and easily.
BTW, the Satmar Rebbe and R’ Amrom Blau did not advocate returning the land to the Arabs. No sane person does. In fact, the Satmar Rebbe would call off protests against the zionists if he ever got wind that any Arabs intended to “join” the protest.
If you asked the Gerrer Rebbe, Vizhnitz Rebbe or the Rosh Yeshiva of Mir if they are crypto-zionists, what do you suppose their reaction would be? “Gabbai, der yid darf a Tylenol!” Financial and political acceptance/participation to the de facto facts on the ground may be something other authorities disagree with, but it does not make them any less anti-zionists than they will tell you they are.
nameless, absolutely. But what I quoted above from Chazal, they said specifically regarding the inyan of Shidduchim.
rabbiofberlin, I suggest asking the leadership, not Joe Chosid. I am confident they will be appalled at the suggestion that they are “crypto-zionists”, or any type of zionists for that matter.
The original (and only true) Neterei Karta (ala Hagoen Harav Amrom Blau ZTV’L) were resident of Eretz Yisroel long before the zionists. And they remained residents after the zionist influx. Nevertheless it is a stretch by any imagination to refer to them as zionists, despite the residency in the holy land.
Bottom line is I don’t see how your redefinition of zionism is plausible nor a widely held definition.
cantoresq, reading the Belzer’s brothers speech in question, I saw no exertion to remain in Europe.
rabbiofberlin seems to say there was a widespread prevention of European Jewry from escaping by MANY Rabbis. I’d like to see any evidence of that (but am confident there isn’t any.) Zalman (above) asked some poignant questions to this assertion.
mariner, Exactly. Joseph would be English and Yoseph Hebrew. So too Matiyahu would be the correct Hebrew spelling (in the Latin alphabet – also known as the Roman alphbet), rather than Matisjahu. And Yom (not Jom, as rabbiofberlin uses) the correct Hebrew spelling using the Latin alphabet. But the good Rabbi disagrees.
Avrohom Avinu threw out his fathers property.
And I absolutely agree with you regarding the absolute necessity for civil discourse. One important point to always bear in mind, is we are debating IDEAS not PEOPLE.
cantoresq, I don’t know what you believe regarding the matter or not, but the canard that the “European Rabbis” somehow prevented European Jewry from escaping is one of the major so-called “defenses” of the zionists for their WWII activities.
rabbiofberlin, Why don’t you ask any of those Yeshivos/Mosdos/Chasiduses if they consider themselves “crypto-Zionists”? Either they’ll burst out laughing or they’ll feel real bad for you. In any event, you have a very unconventional definition of zionism, something it clearly does not mean. Based on your redefinition, many of the Yeshivos/Mosdos/Chasiduses including Hagoen Rav Yosef Chaim Zonnenfeld, the Satmar Rebbe, Neteurei Karta, etc. would be zionists since they are based in Eretz Yisroel. The mere fact that an institution compromised and agreed to participate in the functional organs of the medina (i.e. elections and financing) hardly makes them zionists. Nevertheless, I hardly expect you to allow yourself to be convinced of this obvious.
cantoresq, shaduchim is a whole parsha upon itself. Let me rephrase your question: how easy is it for a regular yeshivishe Joe to be m’shadeich with a well known respected yeshivish family? You cannot extrapolate shiduchim with general attitudes. Every person has their own unique shidduch requirements. As Yeshivish as I may be, I don’t expect to be m’shadeich with a Rebbishe family. And nor do I consider that discriminatory or unfair. Some people will not, for example, be m’shadeich with a Ger because they may be afraid of a relapse. This is a far cry from saying that demonstrates such a person denigrates Geirim or holds any less of them.
I’m not in the chinuch business, but I do know that MANY Baalei Teshuvos are in Chaim Berlin, Torah V’daas, Satmar and many other well established “premier” cheder or yeshiva k’tanas. (Truthfully, I don’t buy into these silly definitions of “premier” altogether.) And yes, what I tell you IS reflective of true attitudes. The problem is false preconceptions outsiders have and assumptions they incorrectly make about the community.
Chazal specifically teach to look for a Bas Talmid Chochom. Another aspect Chazal teach, is to look at the midos of the girls brothers (as it will reflect how her children will be.)
rabbiofberlin:
“Lastly, I spell matisJohu and not MatisYohu because I think this is the correct way. It is Jom Hashishi, not Yom hashishi.”
Out of curiousity, where did you pick up this as being “the correct way”, as you put it? I ask, since it is a most uncommon English transliteration or pronounciation. Please elucidate.
Regarding your comment that “I have, however, also maintained that no Godol is infallible and the fact that their advice to many jews pre-war and during the war is proof that even they can make mistakes. By the way, there are numerous stories of Jews being told by their Rabbonim or rebbes not to leave Europe.” can you address the questions posed by Zalman in the comment immediately preceding your last, on this issue?
What country did your father reside in pre-war?
#5 is subjective, but if applied appropriately I’d say certainly go with that.
Aside from #5, #1 is by far the best choice (from the first 4.)
cantoresq, I am pleased to inform you that you are wrong. I think the vast majority of the yeshivishe velt, myself included, never knew this term to refer to anything derogatory (or otherwise for that matter.) In fact, as hard as I try, I am having difficulty to recalling ANY derogatory vernacular specific for use within the yeshivishe velt.
And regarding Baale Teshuvas in general, all my life I’ve only heard the most laudatory praise for them. Certainly nothing derogatory.
kitzur_dot_net, Is the frum community in Southfield/Oak Park shrinking?
“wait a couple of years to have a baby”?
What religion are they?
cantoresq, you seem to be more expert as “derogatory yeshivish parlance” than the yeshivish community themselves!
cantor, Why do you choose to follow the transliteration of English scholarly literature as your havara?
cantoresq – Pardon my curiosity, but I’m wondering how a Hungarian Yid as yourself uses the Sefardic havara, as you refer to “Shabbat” above (rather than Shabbos)?
If rabbiofberlin is still eavesdropping, I also wonder where your minhug of writing “MatisJahu” instead of MatisYahu stems from.
cantoresq, I’ve read it. In fact he advised the kehila they would be saved. So it demonstrates no such advanced knowledge. The masses were surely unaware of the pending doom.
cantoresq, It was not common knowledge what the Nazi’s ym’s were doing to the Jews in Europe amongst the Hungarian Jewish masses. What Kastner knew, he did not share, most unfortunately.
The Belzer’s brother explained why the Rebbe was going to Eretz Yisroel. He didn’t know that annihilation awaited the kedoshim and made no such claim.
A Prince of England.
lesschumras,
Please read the comments carefully prior to commenting. catoresq did not state his father knew what the Nazis ym’s were doing to their brethren elsewhere in Europe. And my family (we came from Hungary) has told me on numerous occasions that the Yidden were not aware. I’ve never heard anyone claim that it was common knowledge amongst Hungarian Jewry what the Nazi’s ym’s were doing in Europe. It was not, or the Jews would have attemted to escape (or perhaps resist) on a far grander scale. They only ones who “knew” what was going on, were those like Kastner who received (and kept secret) a copy of the Vrba-Wetzler report.
(Not that I agree that the Vrba report was in fact unbelievable. And I certainly fault Kastner for essentially burying the Vrba report.)
cantoresq,
Just a quick note on your comment. My grandparents and family were in Budapest and other areas of Hungary during the war. It is incorrect to state that the Jews in Hungary were aware of what the Nazi’s ym’s were doing to their brethren elsewhere in Europe. They were not. The Vrba report demonstrates that. You yourself stated in was too fantastic to be believed.
Rav Drillman was only niftar about 8 years ago. (His son came to my chupa during shloshim, only because he received a brocho.)
ModernLakewoodGuy – You are officially upgraded to ReligiousLakewoodGuy. (I can already hear the howls.)
You are absolutely correct. Remain strong. Keep doing the right thing.
muchcommonsense – Why not call you brother and ask him if he is me? 🙂
nameless,
ALWAYS ask a shaila. Never be bashful to do so. Better safe than sorry. Especially regarding giving information on a shidduch. It is never petty to do so.
Instinct is the worst barometer of all.
ICOT, Thank You.
Yes, I still await that answer; Dina Dmalchusa Dina (for some reason) has always been a halachic topic of interest to me. I’d love to hear another perspective.
BTW I cannot seem to find the original thread this was discussed under. I mentioned that in many secular legal matters, DDD is inapplicable. (Such as capital punishment, since you brought it up, as it is enforced by secular courts without any input from beis din.)
Another interesting thing about DDD is that it is inapplicable in Eretz Yisroel (as discussed in the famous Ran in Nedarim.)
P.S. You point about calling chumras (and other disliked halachas — most notably tznius) “Talibanization” is something I’ve been yelling about for a long time here!
BTW, and I’ve mentioned this on previous occasion, I too am of holocaust-surviving Jewish Hungarian descent (as cantoresq) and lost families-full of relatives.
My intent was to say “Zionist apologist”, so my apologies for the unfortunate phrase above. With the near constant shrill attacks on Rabbonim, I fail to see the justification for both of your intense taking umbrage when the shoe is on the other foot. I seem to particularly recall rabbiofberlin regretting a statement made in person with Think Big, how ever comparable or not. Nevertheless, please both accept my regrets for that phrase.
Fellow Zionists (Judge Halevi, Ben Hecht, et al), Fellow Nazis (Adolf Eichmann, et al), and Fellow Jews (Rabbi Chaim Michael Dov Weissmandl, et al) all made incriminating statements towards Kastner yet cantoresq and rabbiofberlin remain in denial. Who cares for these Nazi apologists? G-d himself could come down and convict Kastner, and cantoresq and rabbiofberlin will still remain in denial.
Except perhaps for the first few sessions, Kastner never came to me fearful of the Gestapo strong man. We negotiated entirely as equals. People forget that. We were political opponents trying to arrive at a settlement, and we trusted each other perfectly. When he was with me, Kastner smoked cigarettes as though he were in a coffeehouse. While we talked he would smoke one aromatic cigarette after another, taking them from a silver case and lighting them with a little silver lighter. With his great polish and reserve he would have made an ideal Gestapo officer himself.
I love that story everytime I hear it! 🙂
Thanks Feivel
feivel (page 1),
I feel the same as you and I would like to follow in your footsteps.
Matisyahu, Harav Hutner ztl was niftar long before the Lubavitcher Rebbe. The Rebbe was not well for so long?
This is Klal Yisroel!
Now this is a story that should be made permanently sticky.
Now this is a story that happens every day, but we only hear about them once in a while.
Who needs any of the other stories?
Instead of saving 600,000 Hungarian Jews, Kastner reduced it to 1,700. And for what remained after his family and zionist friends took their seats on the train, he sold tickets for what was left. So there was nothing wrong for anyone, including the Rabbonim who managed to buy seats from Kastner (who btw the Rabbonim hadn’t known at the time Kastner was the one profiting from this train ride) to do so, since that became the last train out (another point they hadn’t known at the time.)
…and why wasn’t a new Rebbe appointed after the last was niftar (like Lubavitch always did after the previous Rebbe’s were niftar.)
Can some Lubavitcher chosid please explain why, even if someone who was niftar can be, the last Rebbe is looked at as Moshiach anymore than say the Rebbe Rayatz (the frierdiker Rebbe) or anymore than the Baal Shem is Moshiach?
yoshi dear, Is Mishnayis, Rambam, and Shulchan Orach an ”insufficient comeback” to you?
Opening the car door for the woman on a date is a purely secular custom. A Yirei Shmayim doesn’t engage in that goyish copycat practice.
It is similar to the secular culture custom to open a building door for a woman and allow her in first. (Which is even worse, since a man cannot walk in behind a woman.)
In fact, by Yidden the correct practice is for a woman to allow a man to go first.
If someone here thinks opening a door for a woman is a matter of ‘respect’, please explain why the standard practice should not be for the women to open the door for the men as a matter of respect.
rob, Clearly you have a mental block (no insult intended) that prevents you from seeing any fault with this shabtzei tzvi like fascination you have with the zionists.
The answer regarding the 1700 was given to you multiple times (including just 6 posts above your last, by WH) and you keep repeating yourself as if that will make people forget.
Should we also thank Adolf Eichmann for heroicly approving the saving of the 1700? Afterall Eichmann approved and arranged the train for the 1700 saved. Without Eichmann the 1700 would not have been saved. Really Eichmann should be your hero, not Kastner. So we must be thankful to Eichmann and allow that to ‘trump his other aveiros.’? That is your logic with Kastner.
But this is like hakofos. You just keep repeating yourself without a logical answer. So now you go do your voluminous research and hope the world forgets when we never hear back from you following your ”voluminous research.”
Okay, since yoshi+yossi are taking extreme offense at halacha (as often happens around here when something doesn’t conform to someones American egalitarian Torah, 21st century edition), I did some quick research.
Mishna Horayos 3:7
A man has privilege over a woman, to be saved from death and to return his loss.
Rambam (on aforementioned Mishna):
You already know that men are obligated to keep all of the commandments while the women are obligated to keep only part of them, as is explained in Kiddushin (Mishna 1:7) and he is [thus] more sanctified and therefore the man’s life is saved first.
Shulchan Aruch, Yoreh Deah 252:8
And if they both [a man and a woman] are going to drown in a river, one should save the man first.