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anon,
Shulchan Orach did not specify, as did Rambam, the number of times. Perhaps Shulchan Orach is more lenient and we follow Shulchan Orach.
Shulchan Orach simply says “A woman should not go outside much. The beauty of a woman is to stay inside – “Kol Kevudah…””
And I will once again refer you to YOUR LOR. He is most suited to address YOUR situation.
Thank You Proud Jew.
Give Me a Break,
Why don’t you call the Gedolim on the phone and demand they allow the papers to put women’s pictures in it? After all, YOU say its appropriate, so who are the Gedolim to say otherwise?
Its immortal and never inappropriate.
ICOT: I worked on Fulton and William at the time, and remember your words all too well.
Berlin, Regarding your addendum, what I say, I only say respectfully. The language may be tough, but in defense of the Torah that is sometimes necessary. Neverthless, I don’t disrespect you (or anyone) with it. So please don’t look at it that way.
Have you ever heard the Satmar Rebbe, the Brisker Rov, or Rav Amrom Blau Zichronom Tzaddikei Vkodesh L’vrocho zichiso yogen eleinu on this subject? Comparably, my language on this matter is soft and mushy.
Berlin, You keep repeating yourself on this matter, but the reality doesn’t change.
An example that comes immediately to mind, there is a find individual by the name of Gil Student (you may have heard off him) that is a through and through Zionist, as through as they come. He actually thinks he disproved the Satmar Rebbe’s take on Zionism in V’Yoel Moshe. (People have done worse things, so we won’t hold it against him.) But even he is stated about the Rebbe and his take on Zionism (and this is a direct quote):
“The Satmar Rav’s treatment of this subject is lengthy, erudite and simply brilliant. One can only be amazed by the breadth and depth of his thinking.”
He is hardly alone from the Rebbe’s ideological opponents. You are a nobody to the Satmar Rebbe, so your take is without meaning. (I don’t say this c’v negatively, but factually.)
Every argument you brought up has been more than upgeshlugt whether you admit it or are in denial. If you fail to see reason with your own two eyes, and perhaps reason does elude you as hard as you try, speak to a Talmid Chochom who is a buki in V’Yoel Moshe and ask him to teach it to you.
Unless you hold yourself greater than all? It is pointless to even debate you on this. Its akin to arguing whether the Torah is Emes or c’v.
Respectfully
Pashuteh Yid,
The research is all done. You can read in in V’Yoel Moshe.
It will be quite illuminating. I’ve heard sworn zionists who actually dared to read the Sefer come away quite nispoel.
take out?
barbecue potato chips?
leshitoschem, Because Zionism is illegitimate, their wars are neither milchomos mitzvah OR milchomos reshus. And service in their name, in any manner, is illegitimate (and dare I say, heresy).
Some conversations that took place between Help Desk technicians and callers with a `problem’.
A caller to the Help Desk said the instructions he was reading said to “Press any key”. He asked the desk, “Which key is the `any’ key?”
A caller complained that her new computer wouldn’t work. She said she unpacked the unit, plugged it in and sat there for 20 minutes waiting for something to happen. When asked what happened when she pressed the power switch, she asked: “what power switch?”
An exasperated caller couldn’t get her new computer to turn on. After confirming that the computer was plugged in, the technician asked her what happened when she pushed the power button.
Her response: “I pushed and pushed on this foot pedal and nothing happens.” The foot pedal turned out to be the computer’s mouse.
A caller complained that “her mouse was hard to control with the dust cover on”. The cover turned out to be the plastic bag the mouse was packaged in.
A customer called to say that he couldn’t get his computer to fax anything.
After 40 minutes of trouble-shooting, the technician discovered the man was trying to fax a piece of paper by holding it in front of the monitor screen and hitting the send key.
A call came in from a man complaining that the system wouldn’t read word processing files from his old diskettes. After trouble-shooting for magnets and heat, he failed to diagnose the problem.
It was found that the customer labeled the diskettes and then rolled them into the typewriter to type his labels.
The Help Desk asked a caller to send them a copy of her defective diskettes. A few days later a letter arrived from the customer along with Xeroxed copies of the floppies.
Customer: “Hello, can you help me? The cup holder of my computer broke off”.
Help Desk: “Did you say upholder?”
Customer: “Yes, it’s on the front of my computer. It’s to put on your drinks. It broke off”.
Help Desk: “Was that upholder on your computer when you bought it or did you buy it later?”
Customer: “No. It was on my computer when I bought it. The name on it is 4X”.
At this point the Help Desk operator began to laugh. He realized that the caller was putting his coffee cup in the CD-ROM drive.
Berlin:
Just to repeat what has already been quoted on this thread previously:
“In fact, the Chinuch writes that the prohibition of showing fear in battle and the other mitzvos that apply to battle (e.g. yateid al azeinecha) are incumbent upon men and not women, as women do not go out to battle. Since these mitzvos apply to milchamos mitzvah, wars against Amalek and the Seven Nations of Canaan, as well as milchamos reshus…”
AND:
“The Rambam (Melachim 7:1) writes that the Mashuach Milchama read the parsha warning not to fear and granting dispensation from battle for a newlywed, someone who had just built a house, or someone who planted a vineyard before all battles, both milchamos mitzvah and reshus.
“
So Ra’avad is disagreeing with Rambam on this.
AND (final repeated quotation):
“Rav Soloveitchik, (certainly not an anti-Zionist), explained that aside from the mitzvah of waging war (chovas tzibur) against Amalek and the Seven Nations, there is an obligation (chovas yachid) incumbent upon each Jew to kill members of these nations (Melachim 7:4). The participation of women in battle is not based on the communal obligation of warfare, but on their mitzvah as individuals to fight against these evil nations. This does not effect their exemption from mitzvos that relate to the communal act of war. The same reasoning applies to the reading of the Mashuach Milchama. There still exists a dispensation from the communal act of war for those people normally exempted, but they must participate in some way to fulfill their obligation as individuals to assist the destruction of evil.”
lesschumras,
You need to read carefully without assuming things between the lines. Nowhere did I say that all Jews have always been perfect and that there is no need for judicial remedy or laws to address wrongdoing.
Your response does not demonstrate as you said
1. “Our ancestors were ignorant peasants.” and 2. “Our ancestors could barely read the Aleph Bais.”
I can’t even contemplate how a Jew could call his Zeidas ignorant peasants. And as many am haartzim there may have been, that was never the rule. Our ancestors learnt the aleph bais from a young age, and that was by far the norm. Few of our Zeidas “could barely read the aleph bais.”
3. “They stayed frum out of habit.”
Despite your false conjecture, they stayed frum out of a love for Torah and Yiddishkeit.
4. that only 1% of the ancestors of ours were “talmedai chachamim”
FAR FAR greater than 1% of our Zeidas were talmidei Chachomim. Such a statement could only come from self-hatred.
5. THE JEWS BY HABIT GAVE UP THEIR FRUMKEIT
A minority for sure, and not as you imply the norm.
NOTHING on Aish’s site (or other sources) CHAS V’SHALOM impugn any of these things.
Berlin, like Zalman pointed out, by the milchomos mitzvah the troops were divided into three groups: combat (fighting), support (i.e. Mashuach Milchama), and learning (Torah). Can you cite one instance in Jewish (not Israeli) history of woman in combat? Including in any of the milchemes mitzvahs (or milchemes reshus)? The answer is not.
David Kaufman is a former Town of Thompson (the town the Village of Monticello is in) Supervisor. He also was (is?) the Director of the Monticello Housing Authority. Norman was on some “Planning Board.”
rabbiofberlin, you said “Suffice it to say that the makkilim feel that in today’s society, the place of women ,and their input, has changed. You will not accpet that and thsi is fine too. All I ask is to allow other ipinions without accusing them of heresy.”
Which makkilim?
What if Gedolim do not accept it, AND hold that such an argument IS HERESY. (My question is hypothetical.) Do you deny such Gedolim from stating as such?
lesschumras, What charges of mine? I ask you only to answer the above questions based on your false statement.
mdlevine, I understand. But is your point your own chiddush or you are repeating something a Torah giant said? Thanks
lesschumras,
Logic is not your strong point.
This is what you said:
“Our ancestors in the middle Ages and in Eastern Europe were ( except for the 1%
of taslmedai chachamim ) were ignorant peasants living on shtetls who could barely read the Aleph Bais.”
These are your words that I asked you to source:
1. “Our ancestors were ignorant peasants.”
2. “Our ancestors could barely read the Aleph Bais.”
3. “They stayed frum out of habit.”
4. that ONLY 1% of those ignorant peasant ancestors of ours were “talmedai chachamim”
5. “Once the civil restrictions were removed and Jews could live in the cities, the removal of the shtetl peer pressure meant that THE JEWS BY HABIT GAVE UP THEIR FRUMKEIT.”
You answered and documented none of these malicious and false allegations.
So please NUMERICALLY respond to each of these 5 questions separately.
It is obvious you cannot since it is rubbish.
rabbiofberlin, what feivel quoted were exact quotes from Rav Miller ZT’L.
(Reform are reshoyim, they are not our brothers, they are technical Jews but they are not Jewish, they have no chalik in Olam HaBah)
mdlevine, feivel shared with us Rav Miller ZT’L’s divrei kedusha. Who’s chiddush are you bringing?
The colony is on Kaufman’s Road. (The colony is so old, that eventually Monticello renamed the Street its on for the colony.)
“can of worms”?
This is Torah Hakedosha! What Hagaon Rav Miller said is pure kedusha.
lesschumras,
You continue to beat around the bush. I challenged your original statement, ON 5 SPECIFIC POINTS. Please let us all know where you came up with such baloney for THOSE 5 AFOREMENTIONED POINTS.
anon, No one on this thread ever said that a wife cannot ever leave the house. The commentators that quoted the relevant Shulchan Orach and Rambam specifically mentioned that the essential tasks, like some of what you mentioned, can be done without any problem. (In fact Rambam specifically states: “She is not a prisoner who cannot come and go.” – see the top comment on Page 4 of this thread.)
I believe the new name is Mishkanos Bobov and it was purchased in ’05.
anon:
The following is my earnest suggestion. Ask your lor for specifics, and look at this merely as ideas.
Women should spend as much time at home with their family as possible. They should avoid unnecessary publicity. I personally am not a fan of working wives.
Everyones circumstances are different. Different Rabbonim may have different suggestions. This is in no way intended to be imposed upon all readers. End of disclaimer.
I believe Bobov purchased it (and renamed it) about 5 years ago.
…at least thats what I think the commentor wanted to say (2 posts above mine.)
should’ve read (2 posts of mine above):
women NOT being allowed to learn gemora.
mdlevine, The leaders of these koifrim are reshoyim. It used to be the leaders and followers were as such. But now many of the followers were blindly born into it.
lesschumras,
You are beating around the bush, instead of documenting the flase allegations you leveled against klal yisroel.
Specifically you said:
1. “Our ancestors were ignorant peasants.”
2. “Our ancestors could barely read the Aleph Bais.”
3. “They stayed frum out of habit.”
4. that ONLY 1% of those ignorant peasant ancestors of ours were “talmedai chachamim”
5. “Once the civil restrictions were removed and Jews could live in the cities, the removal of the shtetl peer pressure meant that THE JEWS BY HABIT GAVE UP THEIR FRUMKEIT.”
You answered and documented none of these malicious and false allegations you leveled.
(The only two things you touched — and just barely — was that some poor uneducated Jews joined a movement and some Spanish Jews were forced to convert by the Inquisition.)
Your original statement was:
“Our ancestors in the middle Ages and in Eastern Europe were ( except for the 1%
of taslmedai chachamim ) were ignorant peasants living on shtetls who could barely read the Aleph Bais.”
Broker, And you once again are short of a passing grade of what we mentioned above: Dan Lkav Zchus!
anon, Like I told her, My LOR and your LOR may have a different approach or perspective. If my LOR tells me to have my wife shave (he didn’t), would you consider following those instructions? If not, ask YOUR LOR for advice on all your queries.
mariner,
Refuah Shelamo.
(Tehilim, Gemorah, Shulchan Orach, and Rambam are “one source”? No, I won’t repeat the mekors for the umpteenth time. Check the earlier messages in this thread.)
Yussele Teiere,
I’ve read the 19 letters. And everything I said above is 100% Min HaTorah, as described by the Gedolim of this and previous generations. Nothing is my own chiddushim.
Pashuteh,
Thanks, I agree with that assessment that conversations get unintentionally overheated at times. We can all be more careful.
Pashuteh, answering a question that has no foundation in fact is something I cannot help you with. No one on this thread, myself or others, have said “that women must dress ugly” inside or outside. You will not be able to find a single statement to that effect. Either that is your misinterpertation, or that is a demagoguery of what has been discussed and can only lead one to believe that an attempt to delegitimize tznius standards is at hand.
I already provided you the source for having special dress for the husband inside the home.
Pashuteh Yid, A chutzpa for you to call the Gedolim who said, what I merely repeated, a chillul hashem. THAT is precisely the blueprint the Torah guides us to. Refuah Shelamo.
mariner,
To quote yourself “you really need to learn reading comprehension. seriously.” I specifically stated that the quote of “they are simply like stalks of wheat in the field of Golus…” I was quoting VERBATIM another poster. (Did your eyes miss: “Let me repeat something another poster once posted on these boards:”?) Now mariner, aside from your atrocious spelling errors, anyone taking a quick glance at your drivel will immediately notice the run-on sentences and other elementary errors throughout.
You said “that post that you qouted…” What did I “quote” in the referenced post? Nothing except Gemorah, Shulchan Orach, and Rambam. So your sly attempt to backtrack your own words has just failed miserably. You have made clear you think that the Torah is outdated and no longer relevant (in your own miserable words.)
You ask: “and nowhere does teh shulchan oruch, the rambam or any other say taht a women cannot go out every day, all day if she so chooses.”
UMMM, mariner after all this discussion you STILL have not READ THE QUOTED AND TRANSLATED mekoros from last page!? Rambam actually specifies a SPECIFIC NUMBER of times she can go out per month! mariner, please at least keep up with the conversation before a making a fool out of yourself.
P.S. I can recommend a good English-as-a-Second-language (ESL) program for you.
P.P.S Better for you to keep quiet and be though of as a fool, than to open your trap and confirm it.
Teiere Yussele,
The goy is NO child of Hashem. That distinction is reserved for Bnei Yisroel.
And if my wife shaves her hair (which she doesn’t) is anyone here going to start having their wife shave? It is irrelevant. Ask YOUR LOR, and I’ll ask mine. No one is paskening here, just discussing halacha. (Which is why I repeatedly refer you to YOUR LOR.)
Obviously different poskim treat this halachic issue with their own perspective. Neither you nor I are qualified to issue a psak din on your personal life situation.
Yussel,
Absolutely. A Yid can always do teshuva.
If YOUR CHILD did one of those things you mention, would you love YOUR CHILD less than some Goy? Hashem does no less.
A goy is just a pruste goy.
mariner, You are wrong. Both historically and halachically. Shulchan Orach and Rambam amongst a whole host of others are VERY CLEAR about this. See the previous page for the quotes and mekoros. No one said they can NEVER go out. Rambam suggests once or twice a month. But to you Rambam and Shulchan Orach are “outdated.” But at least get your facts straight. For example, the Chofetz Chaim’s wifes grocery was at HOME (regardless “from all storeis i heard.”)
You are religiously a liberal (unfortunately, despite your being in denial), no one is talking politically.
The Reforms also keep yelling about “is irrelavent. teh times changing.” Shulchan Orach and Rambam are talking HALACHA not chumros or “mannerisms.” Why don’t you open up a Shulchan Orach and Rambam so at least you’ll know what you are talking about, instead of just spewing the latest propaganda from the Jewish Orthodox Feminist Alliance.
mariner: “that post that you qouted [from Shulchan Orach, Rambam and the Gemora], although very artsy, but is irrelavent.”
NO PART of the Torah is EVER IRRELEVANT.
anon: There are different perspectives. Ask your LOR.
feivel, brace yourself for the 21st centurists new agers onslaught.
justsomeguy: “but to discount their Judaism completely is a disgrace.”
There is nothing to discount. The Reform/Conservative DO NOT PRACTICE Judaism.
“Also, I was just repeating what my grandfather says. No I don’t really agree with it. He lived through Aushwitz, lost his whole family, and has a crooked nose due to a beating from the Nazis, so I don’t think you could blame him for saying that the worst Yid is better than the best Goy. Don’t even TRY to change his mind.”
He is far wiser than you and he is right. Precisely because he lived through Aushwitz, lost his whole family, and has a crooked nose due to a beating from the Nazis. Because YOU didn’t go through that, I don’t think you could be blamed for not seeing the truth.
Do you stand up every time he enters the room? You should.
anon for this, The Gedolim have. Just ’cause you haven’t heard about it, don’t assume they haven’t addressed it. IF you’d like to know the resolution, ask your LOR.
I think cantoresq is still busy singing after yesterday’s trial.
“My grandfather always says that the lowest yid is better than the best goy! “
Do you REALLY believe that?
_________________________________________________
Absolutely! Intelligent is 100% correct.