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Yes, they exist. I’m married to one.
Thanks, golfer!
How on earth does sending one’s daughter to seminary in Eretz Yisroel teach her “misplaced priorities” and “incorrect focus”?
It is very appropriate to love Eretz Yisroel, even if you don’t live there. It is probably more important, actually, to instill this love into those children who DON’T plan to make aliyah, because one can’t help loving Eretz YIsroel if he actually lives there. I see nothing “arbitrary” about this.
Eretz Yisroel is our home. It’s where we came from, and where we are going. Unfortunately here in the Diaspora, it is so easy to get caught up in our little bubbles and forget that essential fact.
Shabbos and tefillin are mitzvos, things you do. Eretz Yisroel is a place (but not just any place; it’s our one true home). The comparison is apples and oranges.
What difference does it make how old it is? And I’ll turn your second question around and ask why on earth start a new thread if a relevant older thread already exists? Mods occasionally block new threads if they’re too similar to existing ones. I personally can’t stand the clutter and disorganization of multiple threads discussing the same topic, and if I’m looking for information I really don’t want to have to go jumping from thread to thread, or raise a question in one thread only to find out it’s already been answered elsewhere.
Who said anything about chas v’shalom creating a new mitzvah, which would be a clear violation of bal tosif?
As you correctly point out, those who love their tefillin are more likely to lay tefillin (and in fact there are men who have had the same set of tefillin for years and years, and prefer to spend more money on checking and repairing the same set periodically rather than purchasing a new set, because they are emotionally attached to that particular set).
Why then can you not admit that it is therefore worthwhile to instill in our children a love of Eretz YIsroel, so that they will be more likely to grow up and fulfill the mitzvah of living in Eretz Yisroel? Incidentally, whoever does this will have a share in that mitzvah even if he himself does not move to Eretz Yisroel, because he enabled his sons and daughters to do so.
I don’t think there are any social circles that literally conceive of “Ahavas Eretz Yisroel” as a mitzvah in and of itself. However, it is certainly a Jewish value for the reason mentioned above, and also because it is inherently a beautiful place (9/10 shares of the world’s beauty went to Yerushalayim, remember) and a precious gift from Hashem (and whether or not you believe that Hashem rescinded this gift, the fact that He gave it to us in the first place demonstrates that it is valuable and well worth loving. Don’t kids love toys they don’t actually own, because their parents won’t buy it or already took it away for bad behavior?)
What’s wrong with bumping old threads? Why not restart an interesting discussion that died for whatever reason? So many new threads get created on a regular basis that older ones tend to just get lost in the shuffle.
seventh, I’m pretty sure Randomex was half teasing and half noting that hashtags don’t fit with the general “style” of this forum. You can use them, of course, but no one else does, so it just looks a little weird. No big deal, though.
Lior, that is actually true for many children and can be a good chinuch tool.
I meant joy and pride in Am Yisroel and the Torah, which should have been abundantly clear. It should also be abundantly clear, but I’ll say it anyway, that no normal, well-adjusted adult is going to find spiritual fulfillment in dancing with a teddy bear. (Of course, it’s not assur to do so, as long as you aren’t worshiping the teddy bear.)
There are plenty of communities in which divorce is considered shameful, so many couples are living together in failed marriages, but won’t take the step of actually separating and/or divorcing– leading to artificially low divorce rates.
Ha! I’m sorry but that is not how anyone uses the term, ever.
I’ll rephrase, if you like. I, personally, do not feel an outpouring of joy and pride when I sit in a corner and watch men dance with the Torah. I *do* feel an outpouring of joy and pride when I dance with other women with the Torah. It’s very simple. The shuls where I have danced in the past are led by rabbis who do not pasken that there is any kind of halachic issue with women dancing with the Torah, so long as we are well separated from the men (and no I do not go “shul hopping” for this purpose; it’s just that I’ve moved a lot in the past several years). So halachic arguments aren’t going to work here, and telling me what I *should* feel makes no sense, since there is absolutely no reason why I need to change the way I feel, even if I thought I was capable of doing that.
How do you quantify a successful marriage, though? Low divorce rates aren’t worth much, because plenty of unhappy couples stay married for various reasons.
Lior, how then would you define “spiritual fulfillment”?
Yes, we do in fact teach our children to love Shabbos.
“Shabbos is coming; we’re so happy, we’re gonna sing and shout out loud! Six days a week we wait for Shabbos, a gift from Hashem and we’re so proud! Let’s sing together, SHA A A BOS…”
Just one example.
Sure, you can become attracted after marriage. But you might not. That’s a big gamble and could lead to a lot of hurt feelings.
Having a miscarriage or delivering a boy by C-section would also ensure that the family doesn’t have a bechor. I don’t think anyone would argue that a miscarriage is a brocha.
“The implication being the large majority of frum women who are not clamoring to dance like the men do on S”T and ARE content to do on S”T what Jewish women have been doing for over 1000 years, lack Kovod HaTorah, Ahavas HaTorah and Ahavas Hashem?”
No…that’s not the implication at all. (Thank you for putting words in my mouth again.) You’re the one who brought up the question of who does or doesn’t have Kovod HaTorah, Ahavas HaTorah and Ahavas Hashem.
Let me make this clear: I only speak for myself, not any other women. I, personally, do not find spiritual fulfillment in playing the role of observer on Simchas Torah. When I, personally, choose to attend a shul that allows women to dance, my dancing is an expression of Kovod HaTorah, Ahavas HaTorah and Ahavas Hashem. I am sure that other women feel and act differently, and my intention was never to disparage anyone else.
Disagree. Both middos and money can be improved (although of course you should never marry someone expecting them to change in any way at all). Other considerations such as family background will never change. I didn’t consider that a major factor at all when I was dating, but some do, and it’s worth noting that whatever the circumstances are, it’s a done deal.
Whether or not the wife works is a delicate decision that has to be decided independently by each couple. There is no one-size-fits all solution. I think most would agree, however, that a woman shouldn’t decide to stay home for the sole reason of child care on days off from school. That’s a pretty minor consideration in the grand scheme of things, and besides, I would hope that her job earns more money annually than the total babysitting cost for the handful of days in question.
So let me get this straight. If I don’t enjoy standing around in a corner with women and crying babies and watching men run in circles for hours at a time, that means I don’t have Kovod HaTorah, Ahavas HaTorah and Ahavas Hashem? Likewise if I write a check, but don’t show up for Siyum HaShas?
I think you may be inadvertently proving my point here. It is precisely because I DO have Kovod HaTorah, Ahavas HaTorah and Ahavas Hashem that I’m not content to stand in a corner on Simchas Torah. I feel like I have something to celebrate (a tremendous thing, in fact) but no way to celebrate it. Passive observation is NOT a celebration in my book, and it’s certainly not joyous. No one gets involved just by watching. I’ve never seen women clap or cheer. Most just stand around minding the kids, or shmoozing. I don’t have kids and I don’t want to shmooze, I want to celebrate! I’m so excited that we completed the cycle! It’s pretty anti-climactic to get all hyped up and then have nothing to do with that energy.
Incidentally, how many people have attended a shul dinner honoring Mr and Mrs So and So and felt bored by the speeches? Does that mean one doesn’t, chas v’shalom, respect Mr and Mrs So and So? No…it means one felt it was important that they be honored, but like most people, doesn’t enjoy listening to long boring speeches.
I know in Baltimore, there is an “erev yuntif camp” where you can send your kids if you have to work but they’re off from school. Very reasonable too, something like $25/day for one kid, $20 each for 2, and $18 each for 3 or more. I don’t think it’s a full day but it’s 9-3 or something like that, which I’m sure is a big help.
Wedding shtick is exciting. I do go over and see what the men are doing at weddings, because most of the time they are doing something really cool that I want to watch. Doesn’t bother me that I can’t jump into the men’s circle, because a) I can do whatever I want on the women’s side, and b) it’s really fun to watch. If the men would do wedding shtick on Simchas Torah, I wouldn’t mind half as much being a spectator. (I’m not saying it wouldn’t bother me at all, only that it would bother me significantly less.)
Lior, I don’t know where you’re getting this “most shuls this” and “most shuls that”. My shul has a balcony with no curtains or windows and a relatively low mechitzah on the balcony. And it is not, by any stretch of the imagination, a “modern” shul. I also know of several other shuls with balconies that, by design, cannot be closed. Not to mention shuls with ezras noshim behind or to the side of the men with no curtains or anything, such that it can’t be closed off any more than the mechitza itself does.
no nonsense, I don’t understand the leap from “some women don’t enjoy watching men dance” to “those women don’t feel a love and connection to Hashem and the Torah”. Where’s the logic?
Um, no. You’re putting words in my mouth. Concerts and ball games are entertaining because there is a lot of sensory stimulation. I don’t feel the need to get up and “do” something because there is so much noise and excitement going on (no, sorry, the “noise and excitement” of men dancing doesn’t cut it). But you know, fans at a baseball game are not really passive. They wear their team jerseys and colors, they stand up, they cheer and boo loudly, they mug for the cameras, they try to catch balls. Concertgoers likewise stand up, sing along, mug for the camera, and hold up signs. Can you imagine the women literally jumping up and down and cheering on their husbands and sons in shul? That would be really bizarre.
And actually, yes, allowing male audience members onstage at a concert WOULD make the concert more boring, because it would block my view of the singer and generally take the focus off the singer. (Again, since the Torah can’t perform on its own…not a great comparison.)
I’m going to go out on a limb here and say that most Siyum HaShas attendees don’t show up to be entertained.
The ability to act respectfully to all people in all situations, even when sorely tempted into rudeness or losing one’s temper.
As already pointed out in the concert example, 50% of baseball fans don’t get to come out onto the field with the ball players. The ball players/singer/whichever you like aren’t analogous to the MEN, they’re analogous to the TORAH. The entire point of a concert or ball game is that you want to support/celebrate/cheer on your favorite team/singer. Those venues are not designed for ANYONE to get up and join the “action” (here is where your metaphors break down, because the Torah can’t carry itself).
I do not agree that the majority of frum people enjoy going to the Siyum HaShas. You can start, for example, with the fact that only a minority of frum people within the tri-state area show up for it. I know it does draw a big crowd, but certainly not a majority of all local frum people. (I’m being generous and assuming that there are others who might enjoy it, but are not able or willing to travel that far.)
I’ve never been to a Siyum HaShas and have no desire to go. I expect I would be bored to death. Daf Yomi is a wonderful thing, I’m very glad it’s around, and I would consider sponsoring a daf, but don’t expect me to show up for the siyum itself.
If you want another example, though, I have felt like a spectator at a hachnasas sefer Torah and I did not find it fulfilling.
In that case, good for you, Lior, but it doesn’t work that way for me, and as I said earlier, I won’t be made to feel guilty for that. I don’t enjoy being a spectator and there’s no reason why I should HAVE to enjoy being a spectator. It doesn’t mean that I love the Torah any less, only that I don’t, personally, find spiritual fulfillment in standing by and watching men dance. Apparently you do, and some women do, too, and that’s great, but it’s not for me.
Hey, Lior, why don’t you try sitting in a chair this year and watching the other men dance? I’m sure you’ll see for yourself how your “heart will sing” from “just seeing people dancing with the heilige Torah”.
Not davka a mitzvah to love the land, no, but we should love it because it’s a gift from Hashem. There is tremendous chinuch potential here for hakaras hatov. Living in America and never visiting Israel is a pretty crummy way to treat a gift. It’s like keeping a wrapped box underneath your bed.
Eretz Yisroel is our homeland. Of course we should love it. Do you not have an emotional attachment to the place where you grew up? How much more so should we have an emotional attachment to the land of our forebears, the land that Hashem promised us as a gift! I really don’t understand why this is such a difficult concept!
Frankly, I don’t understand the question. It should be obvious why we would want to cultivate in our daughters a love for our homeland of Eretz Yisroel. It is a mitzvah to live in E”Y, and while it may not be practical for many of us to make aliyah, even living there temporarily for a year or two is worthwhile. Imagine the spiritual benefits one can glean from living in the midst of our nation’s history, and the tremendous value in being immersed in lashon hakodesh. Imagine being surrounded by our brothers and sisters, of whom even the most sworn secular know their Tanach. Truly, there is no place in the world like E”Y. And in large families, it’s very likely that seminary is the earliest opportunity for girls to visit E”Y at all, due to their parents’ financial circumstances.
Regarding the “exoticism”: An 18-year-old is still a child in many respects. Send her to E”Y to learn Torah and make sure she understands that that’s what her primary goal is. But let her have some fun, too. When she comes back to the States, she’ll very likely go straight into the shidduch world, and could end up juggling work and family responsibilities on a tight budget before she’s old enough to drink. If she has the opportunity to go abroad and have some adventures with her friends, let her do it now before that opportunity disappears– and so she doesn’t end up jaded, thinking Yiddishkeit is all work and no play.
B’zman hazeh everyone is tamay, even the men, so the question is irrelevant.
Poll: How many of the male posters here learn Torah on a regular basis? And how many of you consider the experience of hearing the parsha read in shul to be a significant portion of your weekly Torah learning? Additionally, if you learn the parsha on your own during the week, is that a significant portion of your weekly Torah learning?
Lior: no, I wouldn’t have expected the CRC to come right out and say that such and such agency is generally unreliable. But that’s exactly what popa_bar_abba claimed he heard from them. So I wanted to set the record straight.
Randomex: you misunderstood me. It’s not that I no longer identify as a feminist; it’s just that I wouldn’t choose this username if I were creating a new account today. This is primarily because sometimes when I am involved in an argument with someone else, they “win” by calling me a feminist or ascribing views to me that I never mentioned. It is also true that my brand of feminism and level of sensitivity to feminist issues have changed in the past six years. But I am still a feminist. Sure, I could change my username now, but I don’t care that much and I can’t be bothered. Also, I’m pretty sure the sign in name doesn’t change. So I’d have to remember two names and that would be annoying.
I don’t know, maybe nobody does remember, but so what?
I usually don’t do this, but when I noticed this thread I was very surprised, since I’ve never heard anything other than positive about the KVH, so I decided to call the CRC myself, thinking maybe something had changed in the kashrus world in the past two years. The person I spoke to said that it depends on the product. She did not say anything about it being generally not reliable. So I thought I should put that out there, since there’s a real nafka minah.
Thanks, golfer, and the same to you! I no longer have the same radical views on feminism that I did six years ago when I created this account, but the question of what women do on Simchas Torah is one that remains important to me.
Look, we also don’t have a mesorah of women and children showing up to shul in the first place to watch the men dance. In fact, we don’t have a mesorah for “shul” as we know it today. Where’s the stamp of approval from Gedolei Yisroel for that? See what I mean about negative mesorah being meaningless?
rockit, nobody is throwing mesorah out the window.
There is a tremendous difference between a positive mesorah– a mesorah that we have always done something in particular at a particular time– and a negative mesorah, or assuring everything under the sun because “there’s no mesorah for that”.
Golfer, she doesn’t exist. That’s why the rhetorical question of “who can find” is asked. It’s a nice ideal, but eishes chayil is a hyperbolic poem, not an accurate reflection of reality now or ever in the past.
You have just precisely proved my point that an argument against anything for the reason that “no mesorah exists for it” is patently ridiculous.
Regardless of whether or not the kollel lifestyle with women working is or is not ideal, I don’t see how anyone can argue with a straight face that it is not “new” and that somehow a long tradition exists for it.
Minimum wage is unfortunately not the minimum. It depends partially on the age of the babysitter but also on other factors: how many children, are they awake or asleep, is the babysitter responsible for feeding and/or putting to bed, and is it a wealthy community or not. For full-time daycare in the babysitter’s home it can be as little as $5 or $6 an hour.
No. I’m not going to “train myself” to feel differently. I’m not going to apologize for having the feelings I have. I don’t accept the ever so subtle implication that my feelings are illegitimate. They aren’t.
Talmud Torah isn’t my mitzvah. It isn’t my calling to sit in a beis medrash all day. But you know what? Simchas Torah isn’t just a celebration of Talmud Torah. It’s a celebration of Yiddishkeit. Torah, as in the Sefer Torah that is the centerpiece of the holiday, represents our entire nationhood and way of life. And that is just as much mine as any man’s. And I feel so blessed to have been born into Am Yisrael, and so thrilled with the tremendous gift of the Torah, that I too want to dance and sing and rejoice. Sitting in a corner with the women and the crying babies is no kind of rejoicing for me. Watching the men dance doesn’t make me joyful. It makes me hurt and even resentful. I don’t like those feelings and I don’t want to feel that way on one of the happiest days on our calendar. I’d rather stay home.
Hey, no fair changing the thread title. Now my post isn’t funny anymore!
I don’t have kids.
Iy”H my brother will become an amazing father, but he isn’t even in the parsha yet so it’ll be a little while.
Golfer, I was responding to someone who said that the concept of women dancing makes them uncomfortable. The point is not that my or their personal comfort is the theme of the day, but it’s relevant to the topic at hand. But for the record, I can’t really “enjoy and treasure the day” when I’m standing in a corner watching the men rejoice over the Torah.
My brother is a better babysitter than I am. He just has a way with kids. Unfortunately, there are some people in our home community who don’t trust teenage boys to babysit (not talking about for girls necessarily– even parents of just boys have been this way).
No, I haven’t even been a juror. For that matter, I haven’t ever been a juror, either.
My mom has been a juror, and I’m sure she’d be willing to talk about it, but since exchanging private contact information is not allowed here, I’m not sure how you can get in touch with her. Other than her posting here, of course, which would kind of steal your article’s thunder, so to speak.
How about women working? Is that also a shas hadchak? If you say yes because these days a family needs two incomes, then tell me how it is that there are families with 10+ children in which there is only one income, and it’s coming from the Ima.
The bottom line is “there’s no mesorah for that” is a silly and weak argument. No one seems prepared to argue that this is halachically assur, but I still haven’t seen a real case for why it’s not otherwise appropriate other than that it makes some people uncomfortable. And I can tell you that women not participating on Simchas Torah makes me uncomfortable. I know I’m not the only one, either. So whose comfort is going to take precedence?