jewishfeminist02

“I tend to beleive [sic] this theory.”

As the daughter of a man who died of cancer in 2002, I have to warn you that without even looking at this website, I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that this man’s theory is false and utterly unscientific.

During the two years of my father’s illness, I came to know more about the horrible disease of cancer than I ever cared to know. I spent so much time in hospitals that to this day I cannot stand the scent of ammonia because it brings back too many painful memories. My father saw countless doctors and underwent countless treatments in order to try to beat cancer, but it triumphed over him in the end. Anyone- including an Italian man with a medical degree- who says that cancer is an easily treatable fungus is either terribly misinformed or else deliberately lying.

I don’t wear “whatever I want”; I put a lot of effort into making sure that I dress modestly, but of course modesty is subject to interpretation. I do wear red and other bright colors, and I do wear pants, since I don’t see anything wrong with either. I’m not asking men to walk the streets with their eyes closed, but at the same time, I cannot be expected to conform to somebody else’s conception of modesty simply because he might see me on the street. Those who are extremely concerned about this would do well to live in neighborhoods like Boro Park where women like me don’t live.

For me, modesty does not mean that I should try not to be noticeable. As I have stated before, I don’t think that there is anything wrong with men noticing women, nor do I believe that it is my duty to dress “moderately and inconspicuously”. Why is it a problem if a man should “look my way?” My clothes are loose-fitting and they cover the areas that need to be covered, so I don’t see how there any danger in him noticing me.

“We Bichlal don’t belong on the streets, we belong at home.” Sources for this idea would be helpful.

I already know that mitzvot are for our benefit. That is not my issue. But I find it hard to believe that a simple two-word greeting, which serves the basic purpose of acknowledging me or whatever woman is present, could cause “inappropriate thoughts.” I am not trying to “make it about myself”, but I do try to greet everyone I pass on the street. It’s part of the joy of sharing kedushat shabbat and being social. I do not judge these men for their lifestyles and points of view, but I do wish they would think about the possible negative consequences of their actions. If they can’t bring themselves to speak to me, even just a brief smile or nod would make me feel so much better. (That should help the “shy” men as well.) I’ve already stated that ignoring a greeting from a woman can embarrass her. Doesn’t a man who embarrasses a woman distance himself from God?

Sammyjoe:

I am sick of the name-calling. As I’ve stated numerous times, I feel that it is a) loshon hara and b) chilul hashem to toss around terms like “apikorus”. You can make your point without these terms.

Orthodox Jews are a minority, but this does not mean that we have to conform to the majority of Jewry. However, I would NEVER state that they have to conform to us, nor that we have the truth. No one has a monopoly on truth. No one can know if what they are doing is correct. All we can do is to try to do what Hashem wants from us. This is the motivation behind our actions, but we all have different ideas of what it is that Hashem wants. Who are we to judge others and to say that they are sinning? We are not God. Others’ lifestyles DO in fact have validity just like ours, but this does not mean that we need to compromise our own beliefs. Let them do what they feel is right, and we will do what we feel is right. There is no need to spend time attacking them when it would be so easy to coexist peacefully. I would never try to “corrupt” the Torah and I do believe that it is eternally true, so I have not “rejected it totally”; rather, I try to live my life according to my conception of Torah values, which clearly is drastically different from yours.

“Anyone who says a married woman can leave her hair uncovered is a rasha.” Wow, here’s a great example of what I meant before. I didn’t think it would happen so quickly. Joseph, you are pontificating about how a Jew should lead his life. I think we should look into your background and see how observant you really are, because maybe you go against Orthodoxy, in which case it would not be appropriate for you to be saying these things!

Seriously, though, why was that last sentence necessary? You could have just quoted the mekorot and that would have been fine, but no, you had to tack on an insult to everyone who disagrees with you.

Both R’ Yehoshua Babad and R’ J.B. Hurewitz both stated that in a society where hair is not generally considered sexually exciting, there is no problem for married women to go about with uncovered hair. In places where the general practice is to cover the hair, then the sight of uncovered hair is unusual and exciting. However, in a place where most women do not cover their hair, it is not necessary to do so.

The Talmud says that a man cannot use a mirror since it falls under the category of beged isha. However, the Rama comments that in a time when it is common for men to use mirrors, there is no violation of halacha if men want to use them. Can we not apply the same logic to hair covering?

Coal is in trouble no matter who gets elected.

McCain said he would “transition away from coal entirely.” But GMAB is right; if we are at all concerned about protecting the beautiful environment that Hashem gave us, we would do better to invest our money in solar, wind, and other “green” energy sources.

“He pontificates about how a Jew should lead his life.”

Right, and the rest of us never do that. We’ve never suggested that there is one right way to do things. We’ve never said that Jews who do x are sinning. Perhaps an investigation should be undertaken to try to dig up some information on everyone here.

zevi8, I understand what you mean when you say that “the Orthodoxy we know is not true Judaism”, but I’m not sure anyone else does. I know a woman who left Orthodoxy for this very reason. She grew up frum and her father was an Orthodox rabbi, but in those days women did not cover their hair. Orthodoxy has been moving more and more to the right, and she still practices Judaism the way she did growing up, but that lifestyle now fits more with the Conservative movement than with the Orthodox. So, no, I don’t think that the statement that “covering hair is not halacha” is “nonsense” or “a rant with no validity” because according to this woman, it simply wasn’t done in those days in frum circles.

“He absolutely knew his aunt was an illegal”. You state this as if it were undeniable fact. Where’s the proof?

She gave his campaign a total of $260 in $5 increments. How much difference do you think that made for him? Would it have been worth the risk to accept such a small amount of money if he in fact had known that she was not a legal resident and could not legally donate to his campaign? And why would she “brag” about giving him money, again knowing that she was under risk of discovery for illegal activities?

“His entire campaign stinks to high heaven.” Not sure exactly what this is supposed to mean. But this is just an example of the McCain campaign running out of actual things to criticize about Obama’s political positions. Family should never be dragged into politics.

I really don’t believe I am. A man who does not respond to a woman’s greeting is embarrassing her, plain and simple. Shouldn’t we go to whatever lengths possible to avoid such embarrassment? It’s fine if a man doesn’t want to initiate the greeting, but to turn one’s head and not respond seems wrong to me.

Why don’t some people say Good Shabbos to anyone? I don’t understand.

Baltimore is overall a friendly community, but in certain parts I have seen this rudeness. One memorable occasion that does not have to do with saying Good Shabbos involves an interview I once had to be a Bais Yaakov Camp counselor. The woman who interviewed me was very rude and basically judged me from the get-go because the high school that I went to was not “frum enough.” And when I told her that I wear pants, the expression on her face could not have been more disdainful. No matter that I was prepared to wear skirts the entire summer, even outside camp as per her request.

Firstly, it wouldn’t be murder, it would be manslaughter- or, I suppose, antslaughter.

Second, ants aren’t stupid; they stay away from feet. I have noticed that it is difficult to accidentally kill an ant because they can see the shadow of one’s feet and anticipate where and when they will descend. Granted, if one is trying to kill an ant it is possible, but my point is that accidentally killing ants doesn’t happen very often, in my experience. Anyway, as you pointed out, it is only two small areas of the foot that are in danger of killing ants, not the entire area of the foot.

B’chol zot, nobody is pretending that ants have the same rights as people, but they are still God’s creatures and deserve our consideration. When I find an ant in my house, I let it crawl onto a piece of paper and take the paper outside, rather than simply killing it. (Ditto for spiders/beetles/etc.)

Oops.

Okay, so time posted is the time we write posts. So zevi8 confirmed he wrote it. (What is the alternative, that somebody hacked into his account?) So he said he was in Lakewood. I still don’t see how this adds up to mechallel shabbos.

I am not familiar with the way IP addresses work. I am in Israel now, writing this from a laptop I purchased in America. Does the IP address reflect the origin of the computer itself, or the location of the wireless network to which I am connected? If the former, then one might think that I am in America and could mistakenly accuse me of the same thing.

I remember reading the post “are you in lakewood”. Without even asking myself or doubting what it meant, I just assumed it was another way of asking “do you live in lakewood”. I am sure zevi8 and probably others interpreted the question this way too.

It is not for us to decide who is “away from” the Torah and who is not. We should spend our time bringing ourselves closer to it, not deploring others whose hearts we cannot know. You take offense at his statement that your practices are not true Judaism, yet you will turn it around and say his is not true Judaism! Do you not see the inherent hypocrisy here?

I have now been on this forum long enough for other users to get a general picture of my views. I am not here to make enemies, but I too have been called all kinds of names and accused of all sorts of things, including being irrational, a misguided soul, anti-Torah, anti-religious, and the list goes on. Do you look for ways to incriminate me? Are you just waiting for me to slip so that you can expose my misdeeds and “save” others from “falling sway” to my “blasphemous views?” And do you honestly think that anyone who is secure in his/her Yiddishkeit could possibly be “swayed” by an online posting?

Say what you want. I steadfastly believe in zevi8’s innocence. And wouldn’t you want him to do the same for you if you found yourself in a situation where your own observance was under scrutiny?

I am unbelievably shocked at the cross-examination that is going on here. Do users here have nothing better to do than to hunt around looking for ways to discredit those who have different views? Have we learned nothing from the “multiple personalities” situation? Everyone was utterly convinced that GMAB was logging in under seven different usernames, and then it turned out that there was a logical explanation.

Let’s just say, hypothetically, that zevi8 did post on Shabbos. So what? Is that any of our business or concern? No, of course not; it is between him and God. But I don’t think that zevi8 posted on Shabbos. If he says he is in Hong Kong, then I believe that he is in Hong Kong. He should not have to justify himself to anyone here. I myself am from Baltimore, but am spending the year in Eretz Yisrael. If somebody on this forum asked me, “Do you live in Baltimore?” I would probably answer in the affirmative simply out of habit. Yes, I am actually living in Israel for the year rather than just touring for a few weeks, but I also view Baltimore as my home. As much as I would like to live in the Holy Land permanently, for now it is only temporary, so I would still use the word “live” to describe my relationship to Baltimore.

Whether or not zevi8 was mechallel shabbos, it is a huge chilul hashem to post something of that nature on this forum. Zevi8’s credibility is now being called into question, and anybody who views this topic may believe that zevi8 was in fact mechallel shabbos. It doesn’t matter that these are screen names, it doesn’t matter that we are online- this is a form of loshon hara, and furthermore, it is a tremendous embarrassment to zevi8. One who embarrassed a person is as if he killed him.

Last summer, I attended a weekend reunion of a program I had gone on the previous year. On Friday night, after dinner, we had a late-night improv game session. One of the games involved us speaking for a short period of time about a subject thrown out by one of the other players. One person threw out the subject of cheese, which made for a humorous monologue. On Shabbos afternoon, we had a program called Sichot- conversations. We were paired up and given a list of questions to ask each other, the idea being that we would make new connections and get to know each other better. The third question on the list was “How do you eat your cheese?” One woman there said to me, “This means he must have typed up the list over Shabbos, because the cheese monologue happened when it was already Shabbos, so how would he have known to put that question there?” I didn’t believe that the man in question would have been mechallel shabbos and tried to think of an answer, to be dan l’kaf zechut. Since he was both the person who typed the list of questions and the person who threw out the subject of cheese, I decided that he must have added the cheese question to the list to be funny, as a way of breaking the ice, and thus already had cheese on his mind when Shabbos came in. This meant that on Friday night he threw out the idea because it was fresh in his mind. I don’t know if this is what really happened; I never asked him, because I don’t think it’s any of my business. But it’s much better to try to think of things like that than to just assume that the person is in the wrong.

It’s a good point to ask how many other users here have YeshivaNet. I don’t- but it seems unlikely that only six people are affected by this.

GMAB, I too must ask your forgiveness for initially believing that you had acted deceptively. I’m glad to see that everyone here has learned the lesson of dan l’kaf zechut even when it does seem impossible.

@BYgirl- Maybe I didn’t make myself clear. I stated that red is an eye-catching color. “Enticing” was your word. I do not for one second believe that a woman who wears a red garment is “enticing” or “seducing” or in any way causing men to have improper thoughts about her, unless, as stated before, the garment also happens to be clingy, scant, or see-through. This also is assuming that the woman does not wear head-to-toe red, but that she happens to have on a red shirt with, say, a denim skirt.

Yes, I find the story about my mother to be cute, but more than that, I think it’s amusing. It seems obvious to me (and I see that we are of two minds on this subject) that the timing of my parents meeting and my mother buying red clothing was contiguous but not connected. In other words, my father was not attracted to my mother simply because she wore red. (I also believe that when my mother says that she bought “a whole wardrobe” of red, she is exaggerating. I have looked at pictures of her from that time, and she really did not wear so much red. In any case, I’m sure she doesn’t remember what she was wearing the first time they met.) They had 22 years of marriage based on a foundation of love, respect and caring. Sure, there was a physical attraction; marriages need that (see the shidduchim and weight thread.) But my parents met because they lived in the same apartment building and had mutual friends. The history of my parents’ friendship, dating relationship and marriage has nothing whatsoever to do with what either of them wore. So am I “proud” of the way my mother acted? That’s a strange question to ask; I don’t think that there was anything wrong with what she did, but it also didn’t accomplish anything. My father chose to ask her out on a date because he enjoyed spending time with her and could tell that she had good middot. He didn’t ask her out because he liked her clothing. So I wouldn’t use the word “proud”, but she did no harm by acting facetiously, so why should I hide it?

havesomeseichel, “he” is not just “a term for an anonymous person”. It specifically means a male, just as in Hebrew we have the word “hu” which means a male. For space and clarity, many people use the male tense to refer to a mixed group in English; in Hebrew the male can actually grammatically mean a mixed group. (This is why I find the Gemara’ statement “b’neichem v’lo bnoteichem” so puzzling. But that’s a discussion for another time.)

Nobody is accusing you of being sexist, but just know that it is not always acceptable to use the word “he” to refer to a person of unknown gender, and never acceptable to use it to refer to a woman.

I agree with zevi8. It’s impossible to shelter children from everything. And the likelihood of them accidentally stumbling upon some immoral site is slim to none. Websites with offensive material always have screens requiring the user to click a button certifying that he is over 18 and does not object to pornographic material before they show anything.

Feivel, just because children cannot operate cars does not mean that they are not in danger when they ride in them, even in booster seats. I currently live in Israel where the rate of car accidents is alarmingly high and injures a great number of children- just go look in Alyn Hospital, and you will see all the children who are mentally and physically handicapped from these accidents. Yet people still drive in Israel, and they still put their children in cars. The solution is not to stop driving, it is to drive less recklessly. So too, the solution here is not to block the Internet from children, but to find a working system of monitoring their usage of it.

If I could step in here, I don’t think that zevi8 has anything to hide or is being “coy”, but rather, he is offended that you doubt his observance and would like to know what he wrote that caused you to think that he might not be shomer shabbos.

Is that right, zevi?

(And by the way, I don’t think that zevi’s observance level, or anyone else’s here, for that matter, has any bearing on the discussion.)

Yes, a couple needs to be physically attracted to each other in order to get married. (This does go both ways; the onus shouldn’t just be on the girl to make herself attractive no matter if the guy is overweight or unattractive in some other way.) However, it shouldn’t be a top priority. There’s a difference between looking for attraction and having a “shopping list” of physical traits that the potential spouse MUST have. I also know women who refuse to date men who are shorter than they are. I think this is very silly, but I guess that’s a different discussion.

The important thing to remember is that numbers mean nothing. Personally, I’m a size 12- BUT I”m also 5’8. A girl who is average height, say 5’4, would be overweight if she were a size 12, but for me it is a relatively healthy weight. (Okay, so I could stand to lose a few pounds, but I think overall I’m doing well.) Obsession with numbers, be them sizes, pounds, or calories, is dangerously unhealthy and leads to eating disorders. The important thing is to be able to look in the mirror and be satisfied with what you see. Sometimes it helps to stand in front of a full-length mirror and find three things that you like about your body. (This may sound silly but I’ve done it before and it really helps.) This is great for self-esteem. But while you’re standing there, you might also want to ask yourself if you’d like to change anything about your body. This doesn’t mean that one has to be the skinniest girl around, but the question is whether or not your body is the healthiest it can possibly be. Sometimes a size 10 girl is healthier than a size 4 girl, again depending on height and body build (do the extra pounds come from fat or muscle?) as well as WHY they are the sizes they are. If a girl binges and purges in order to keep herself at size 0 or whatever the case may be, it’s better to date a size 14 girl who eats well-balanced meals and exercises regularly.

Also, regarding diets, it’s unwise to give out blanket advice because everyone’s bodies work differently, and everyone has different taste buds. To say that skim milk “tastes horrible” is an opinion statement and is not true of everyone. Certain people are sensitive to certain foods, and so while they may be healthy foods for others, these people will get sick if they eat them. One needs to find a diet that works for him or her (and by “diet” I don’t mean Atkins or South Beach; I am using the simpler meaning of the word.)

Two things to remember as we make our comments:

1) Shivim panim l’Torah

2) Ayzeh hu chacham, halomed mi’kol adam

These ideas are important to have in mind. It’s easy to denigrate others; I have addressed this point before, but unfortunately it needs reinforcing. In the heat of a debate, and when one is so convinced that one is right, words slip out that can be hurtful. Let us all read over our posts a few times to check for disrespectful language before pressing the “Send” button.

I sincerely apologize if anything I have posted has offended anyone here.

So if this does still apply today, then women are obligated in spinning?

Joseph, did you actually read the article, or did you just look at the title and draw your own conclusions?

This is from morim.org, written by Rabbi Joshua Kullock:

“Now, if we wish to see in which way the Halacha is coded for a given item (such as, say, covering oneself with a tallit), we might open up the Shulchan Aruch and find the following:

‘Women and slaves are exempt, for it is a positive precept with a determined time period. Ramah: And, in any event, if they wished to cover themselves [with the tallit] and bless, they could do so, just as with the other positive precepts with a determined time period; however it is considered an arrogant attitude, and for this reason they should not don the tzitzit.’ (Orach Chaim 17:2)

While Yosef Karo presents us with a replica of what we read in the Mishnah, Moshe Isserles (Ramah) adds two interesting pieces of information: On the one hand, women can observe if they wish, but this would be considered an arrogant attitude, so they should refrain from doing so. In this paragraph we might underscore several linguistic details: Above all, the Ramah writes openly that women can observe all positive precepts with temporal specifications. However, in his opinion such observance would demonstrate haughtiness towards others and is therefore best not practiced. Now…does the arrogance of this attitude have something to do with the times in which there were marked differences in the observance, labor, and social status of men and women? Should we continue to adduce arrogance as a motivation, so that women not use the tallit? Who would be offended in the twenty-first century, should a woman don a tallit?…Without having to arrive at any final answer, we can already see how language, context and norm fuse together, in a multifarious, complicated web, which will have to be taken into consideration when drawing conclusions.”

So you see, it’s not as simple as you make it out to be. I have also thoroughly studied the sources for women learning Gemara and it is clear to me that there is no halachic issue there; however, I will reserve my comments for the existing thread. Thank you for pointing it out to me.

Pashuteh Yid, thanks for bringing the discussion back on topic. You make excellent points.

Okay, Joseph, if you’re so familiar with JOFA, why don’t you give me an example of one of JOFA’s “anti-Torah philosophies?”

Thanks lesschumras, you took the words right out of my mouth. No human being in today’s world, no matter how much time he or she spends studying Torah, can possibly “happen to know what God says on the matter”. We were given the Torah, but the Torah is cryptic and unimaginably complex. Halacha is based on interpretations of passages in the Torah. In order to live a Torah-observant lifestyle, it is not only acceptable but absolutely necessary to have an opinion. Otherwise, how would one know what to do? The Torah is at times seemingly contradictory, and even the simplest pshat leaves plenty of room for disagreement. Elu V’Elu Divrei Elokim Chayim! (All this, of course, cannot justify murder or certain other extreme examples, but overall it is a working system.)

torahls1, you seem to have a mistaken impression of what it means to be a Jewish feminist. I do not take new morals from feminism and try to fit them into Judaism; rather, I believe that, far from being antithetical to it, the Torah itself advocates feminism. All I have done is to take basic Torah values and apply them under a different name. Feminism, after all, is a misnomer, and it is the name that scares most people off. They believe that feminism is about elevating the status of women above the status of men, which couldn’t be further from the truth. (If you would like a detailed explanation of what feminism actually is, please request it in the feminism thread, which can be found in the Beit Midrash forum.) I must ask you, however, to refrain from using derogatory terms in your posts. V’ahavta l’re’acha camocha- would you appreciate it if I called you a slummy, silly, agenda-driven wacko? (And by the way- where did I ever mention my age? How do you know that I am a “young lady?”)

Bentzy18, you have some good points. I will not deny that a great deal of the obesity epidemic in America is due to diets heavy in white flour and refined sugar just as much as red meat. However, there is no denying that chicken still contains a great deal of fat and cholesterol, and fish also contains high levels of mercury. While vegetarian diets are more difficult to maintain because they require one to consume several different types of food during the day to accumulate all of the essential amino acids, they are also healthier in this regard. One who consumes all of the amino acids from various sources is better off than one who consumes them all from one meal of chicken.

I see no reason for JOfA to drop the “O” in its acronym. If you don’t believe that feminism has a place in Orthodoxy, perhaps you are understanding the concept of feminism incorrectly. I suggest that you do check the JOFA website to see what its founders have to say on the subject before you attack its right to exist. After I post this, I will be creating a new thread for anyone who would like to discuss feminism, but please leave it out of here.

I see that the right to an open forum to express one’s opinion does seem to be limited to those who have mainstream opinions. How can this be so? Don’t you see that name-calling and the like is juvenile and doesn’t accomplish anything? Do you really think that insulting me like this will cause me to change my mind? It is a tremendous aveirah to embarrass a human being. Just because we have not met in person does not mean that you are exempt from this. In my eyes, this discussion thread has become a chilul Hashem. Why was the Beit Hamikdash destroyed? Because we couldn’t get along with each other. I take no offense if you disagree with me, but if you don’t want to leave an intelligent comment explaining your viewpoint, please don’t resort to insults and name-calling. This type of behavior is what divides the community of Am Yisrael and takes us further and further away from the Geulah.

For those who are still in doubt about my sources, I’ll provide the links. However, I see that no one else here has been challenged about where they got their information. The R’Hirsh quote comes from the website of the Jewish Virtual Library, a respected source. According to JVL, the quote comes from Horeb, Chapter 60, #416, if anyone would like to look it up for yourself. By the way, the quote I provided was partial; R’Hirsh continues on the subject to say:

“There are probably no creatures that require more the protective Divine word against the presumption of man than the animals, which like man have sensations and instincts, but whose body and powers are nevertheless subservient to man. In relation to them man so easily forgets that injured animal muscle twitches just like human muscle, that the maltreated nerves of an animal sicken just like human nerves, that the animal being is just as sensitive to cuts, blows, and beating as man. Thus man becomes the torturer of the animal soul. which has been subjected to him only for the fulfillment of humane and wise purposes…”

The Rama quote actually comes from a book, The Jewish Dietary Laws: Their Meaning for Our Time by Samuel H. Dresner, pages 33-34 if anyone would like to check it. I have not read the book, but as far as I know, it is an objective look at kashrut and Dresner himself is not a vegetarian. If he was, however, I would not suspect him of fabricating quotes to support his beliefs, particularly since he quoted the Rama in a published book which was read by countless editors rather than a simple post on a website.

I have to go to work now, but I’ll respond to the rest of the posts when I get back.

First of all, I want to apologize for the way I worded the last part of my post. I see that it was perceived, at least by the moderator, as “making fun” of certain sects of Judaism. I certainly did not mean to mock or ridicule and I hope I did not offend anyone in the expression of my personal opinion.

…

@jphone- Governmental standards, sadly, are nowhere near where they should be. And hypothetically, if optimal “health and safety” standards were met, that still would not ensure that the chickens were comfortable and did not suffer prior to their death. Too often, advocates of shechitah point to the sharpness of the knives without considering the actual lives of the animals. Perhaps the moment of slaughter is pain-free or virtually so, but what about the unnaturally cramped living conditions the animals must endure before they are large enough to be killed? (Re your first point, I agree. It is the manner of fulfilling the custom and not the custom itself to which I object. Thanks for catching my poorly worded sentence.)

@feivel- R’ Samson Raphael Hirsh stated, “Here you are faced with God’s teaching, which obliges you not only to refrain from inflicting unnecessary pain on any animal, but to help and, when you can, to lessen the pain whenever you see an animal suffering, even through no fault of yours.” If you don’t believe me, take it from the esteemed R’ Hirsh, who uses the very words “pain” and “suffering”. Additionally, have you ever noticed that when babies reach a certain age (usually not before eight months or so) they begin to fixate on mirrors? I’ve done a good bit of babysitting, and it’s a trick I used a lot. When the babies started to fuss, I would hold them in front of a mirror, and they would be fascinated. That’s because they are learning the concept of consciousness. A baby moves his hand and discovers that the baby in the mirror moves his hand too- at the exact same time! What does this mean? The baby is becoming self-aware. Would you therefore say that until this self-awareness occurs, the baby does not experience pain or suffering? Would you therefore say that when a baby begins to wail after being given a shot, he is simply “appearing” to experience pain as if programmed like a robot?

Re your point on leather shoes: if compassion for animals “has nothing to do with” the reason we may not wear leather shoes on Yom Kippur, what then is the reason? It’s true that there are multiple opinions. Compassion for animals happens to be one of them, and is held by the Rama himself, who quotes Psalms. “How can a man put on shoes, a piece of clothing for which it is necessary to kill a living thing, on Yom Kippur, which is a day of grace and compassion, when it is written ‘His tender mercies are over all His works’?” he asks. However, another popular opinion is that we don’t wear leather shoes because we are supposed to afflict ourselves and leather shoes are a sign of comfort. From this perspective, I find it very hard to believe that a person who wears canvas sneakers with a full mink coat is not transgressing halacha.

@mariner- You got your wish. I, a proud animal lover, have an answer for you about the Azazel. The truth is that you could have asked about the Para Adumah or any other animal sacrifice and my answer would have been the same. First, look around you- we don’t perform these sacrifices anymore, and many respected halachic authorities believe that we will not perform them, or at least not the majority of them, even when the third Beit Hamikdash is built. Maimonides says that God only instituted the sacrifices in the first place because the Jewish people were on such a low level that they were greatly influenced by the pagan worshippers, whose core belief systems included animal sacrifice. Without the familiarity of the sacrifices, he posits, the nation might have rejected all of Judaism. Abarbanel, too, quotes a Midrash which states that the Jews learned the concept of animal sacrifice in Egypt and were unwilling to give it up. In order to accommodate their needs at that time while preventing idolatry from creeping into the service, God allowed them to bring sacrifices, but only in one central sanctuary.