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I’m not “starting with” any “foreign values” at all. Please explain why you believe that a) nothing in the Torah is shocking, and b) if you feel a sense of discomfort while learning Torah, it must be because of “foreign values”.
Can you really read narratives like the rape of Tamar, the sale of Yosef, the incident of Pilegesh B’Giv’ah, and not find them shocking?
Let me be clear: “Shocking” does not mean “This teaching is wrong and I reject it”. “Uncomfortable” does not mean “Let’s just disregard this and get on to the good parts”.
Yes, the Torah should and does shape our values. But sometimes, the process of internalizing Torah requires a bit of discomfort along the way.
Have you ever had a procedure done in a doctor’s office or a hospital and experienced pain or discomfort? Did you then tell yourself, The doctor knows much more than I do, what he is doing is good for me, if I am experiencing pain it is only because something is wrong with me and if I really trusted the doctor completely and accepted that this procedure is necessary and important, I wouldn’t be feeling any pain….?
It’s hard to say for sure without further details, but it definitely does sound sketchy.
From the American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry:
“Clinicians should be aware that there is no evidence that sexual orientation can be altered through therapy, and that attempts to do so may be harmful. There is no empirical evidence adult homosexuality can be prevented if gender nonconforming children are influenced to be more gender conforming. Indeed, there is no medically valid basis for attempting to prevent homosexuality, which is not an illness. On the contrary, such efforts may encourage family rejection and undermine self-esteem, connectedness and caring, important protective factors against suicidal ideation and attempts. Given that there is no evidence that efforts to alter sexual orientation are effective, beneficial or necessary, and the possibility that they carry the risk of significant harm, such interventions are contraindicated.”
From the American Academy of Pediatrics:
“Therapy directed at specifically changing sexual orientation is contraindicated, since it can provoke guilt and anxiety while having little or no potential for achieving changes in orientation.”
From the American College of Physicians:
“Available research does not support the use of reparative therapy as an effective method in the treatment of LGBT persons. Evidence shows that the practice may actually cause emotional or physical harm to LGBT individuals, particularly adolescents or young persons.”
From the American Psychiatric Association:
[the American Psychiatric Association]
From the National Association of Social Workers:
[P]roponents of reparative and conversion therapies, such as the most commonly cited group NARTH, claim that their processes are supported by scientific data; however, such scientific support is replete with confounded research methodologies. . . . [Reparative and conversion therapies] cannot and will not change sexual orientation.”
The above are all reputable professional organizations. Elon Karten, who Ben Levi cited, is a nobody, and his views run contrary to the research findings and conclusions of 99% of the rest of the medical community.
Basic common sense. Try it sometime.
They don’t “encourage people to leave yiddishkeit.”
The people who come to them have already left.
Feminism isn’t politics.
“Would he have a chance of remarrying a girl that never married before or are they [sic] ‘doomed’ to be single forever?”
First of all, there’s always a chance. Second of all, he can also marry a widow. My mother is a widow, and often gets matched up with Kohanim.
I do know one very happily married couple that is the opposite way. He is a widower (not a Kohen, as far as I know) and she was never married. His kids were already grown when they got married and she was unable to bear children. They are seeking to adopt. I think they’ve been on adoption lists ever since they got married a few years ago, but newborn babies are in such high demand and especially for them as an older couple, they aren’t an adoption agency’s first choice. I know they have been through a lot of tzoris dealing with the agencies. But I don’t think that their different life experiences presented an obstacle for their relationship. They seem to be very happy together.
We are not living in 1950s America where people are simply uneducated and don’t know any better.
Baruch Hashem, America has become a place of Torah scholarship and we have countless very learned rabbis, who certainly are not ignorant of the Rambam you keep quoting. And yet they allow their wives to come and go as they please, and they do not instruct their talmidim to limit their wives’ and daughters’ comings and goings to “necessary” errands.
You’re comparing apples and oranges.
Find me at least one modern-day rav who says it’s a halacha for women to stay home as much as possible (and I don’t mean working vs stay at home mothering, I mean physically in the house vs out of the house regardless of her occupation). I bet you can’t.
Do you have a specific reason to believe that the teacher IS anti-Semitic? If not, you have to assume that they aren’t anti-Semitic, unless and until they do something specific that makes you think that they are.
Abba_S, I lived in Rochester for a bit. They do indeed have a wonderful yeshivish community, with amazing and affordable schools, including a Chofetz Chaim.
Dunno if you were serious, but I would really not recommend attempting to commute from Monsey…the houses are cheap and depending on your field, it shouldn’t be too difficult to find a job. They have a recruitment committee that can help. Google “torah rochester”.
I do have to disagree with your assertion that a homeschooled child who takes online courses will be unable to go to work, get a college education, or learn in yeshiva (in other words: his life will be over and he will be a failure as an adult). Of course homeschooling is not for everyone. But it does work well for many children, including with the online supplement. I do not believe that the coursework involves a daily 8 hour block of computer time.
No, it doesn’t. Parts of the Torah are shocking by design. The feeling of discomfort itself is not a failure. It’s how you handle it that matters.
If you immediately try to reconcile the conflict by re-interpreting the Torah to fit your pre-established narrative, sure, that’s a big problem. But you could respond in a number of different ways.
You could say, Clearly I didn’t understand this properly, let me keep working through it until I do understand (without any agenda at hand, just reading through all the commentaries and going over it multiple times). Or you could ask yourself, Why is it that I have this discomfort? Where is that stemming from, and how can I deal with it? Or you can say, I see that I am uncomfortable, I accept that I am uncomfortable, I choose to embrace the Torah despite my discomfort, to acknowledge the discomfort and then to set it aside.
Etc, etc.
Actually, there are biological differences in the brain as well. Researchers have performed brain scans of transgender people and discovered that the brains of transgender men were more similar to the brains of people born with male reproductive organs than people born with female reproductive organs. It’s much more than just a “deep longing towards the other gender”. It’s science-based.
But regardless, according to the Tzitz Eliezer, once a person has the surgery, they are now considered the gender that they switched to, not the gender they were born as. Which would also speak to your point, coffee addict. Once their “private parts” change, the definition of who they are also changes. (And regarding “tell that to Hashem”– guess what, Hashem is the one who created their brains and bodies differently in the first place. Also, I don’t think by goyim it matters at all.)
It is also never a good idea to have a conversation with a gay person to “point out that perhaps they are mistaken and marriage is of opposite genders.” They aren’t going to scratch their head and say, “Oh, you’re right, so silly of me!” They’re going to go ahead and marry their same-gender partner anyway. All you will have accomplished is to contribute some pain and suffering to them and to make a tremendous Chillul Hashem in the process.
And, yes, climate change is an observable scientific fact. Got any questions?
apushatayid: Yes, in theory, but there are thousands of causes, all very deserving, and a person’s assets are limited. The walkathons and ice bucket challenges and so forth are done 1) to make a particular cause stand out from all the others and 2) to encourage the donor to give NOW, not just at year’s end, or the next time they get a raise, or on the next holiday, or just stam whenever they feel like it.
I used to work in fundraising. The #1 reason why people donate money is because they were asked. Generally speaking, it’s not going to randomly occur to someone to donate money unless it’s a special occasion, and even then, they’re much more likely to give to a couple of organizations they know well and have been giving to for years, rather than something more random like ALS research.
Not you, Sparkly. Joseph is trolling. He’s the one who bumped the thread.
Health: Um, why exactly would the APA not be reputable according to you? They are the foremost authority on the subject in this country. I think you are the one with the bias…
dovrosenbaum: “Master at trolling” is your criteria for a good president? Seriously?
It doesn’t matter what they actually do or don’t look like, that’s how people think of them. I mean that’s the reality of societal perception, not the reality of their actual historical genealogy.
Syag Lchochma, yes, actually I was– sorry for the misunderstanding!
I love coffe, people ARE addressing the tuition crisis. It’s just that nothing has worked yet.
“The anger of the workers in coal plants out of a job because of stupid environmental regulations…The anger of those who were told that they could not build on their own land because of stupid zoning and environmental laws.”
Those regulations that you deride as “stupid” are the only hope that we have of preserving the planet for future generations. Climate change is real, and it isn’t going away anytime soon.
“The anger of religious people who were told that to operate a business in America you have to serve product intended for ceremonies that go against the core of you’re [sic] beliefs and if not you are racist.”
Actually, gay marriage has nothing whatsoever to do with racism. Nice try.
“The anger of millions of people who were told they cannot pray in public because they are ‘offending’ other’s [sic] but they must allow men who decide they are women to use the same bathroom as their daughters.”
Transgender women aren’t “men who decide they are women”, they are real women. And they need to use the bathroom just like anybody else does. They aren’t interested in victimizing other people’s daughters, they just want to do their business. Also, I’m pretty sure there is no law in America that forbids praying in public. Having a governmental organization host a public prayer session, perhaps, but private individuals and private companies are certainly entitled to pray in public spaces.
But I’m not sure where you’re going with this, anyway, because establishment Republicans are very much opposed to gay marriage, public prayer, transgender bathroom usage, regulations to fight climate change, and the other examples you mentioned.
References are definitely useful. I’m not advocating that people not put references on their resumes, or not call others’ references. But I don’t believe that they are a substitute for a personal statement.
I had a journalism internship one summer, and I was assigned a story about a day school principal who was retiring. I got a lot of great quotes from the students and teachers at his school about what a great principal he was, and about all his accomplishments over the years, and how much they were all going to miss him. I spent some time writing a really thoughtful article and turned it in to my supervisor, who gently let me know that while I had done well with those quotes, I had forgotten the most important thing: to get a statement from the retiring principal himself.
It’s not “normative Jewish practice” today. No woman I know, including in Chareidi circles, has to justify why and when and how often they leave their houses. Neither do they restrict their goings and comings to “necessary” things; social visits are certainly not “necessary” but they are very very common. And the frummest of frum women attend Bar Mitzvahs and l’chayims that they certainly aren’t required to attend. If it’s a family simcha, that’s different, but I’m talking about a simcha where you won’t lose any friends by not going. And yet the most chashuve rebbetzins don’t shy away. Why?
I will repeat my earlier question in a way that will perhaps help you to better understand. Why is it that when women get into their cars to go somewhere, you characterize them with frivolous verbiage such as “gallivanting” and “cruising around”? Why don’t you characterize the men this way? For instance, when you said that our bubbes wouldn’t have been caught dead gallivanting around on a horse and buggy, why didn’t you say that it was just fine for the zaides to “gallivant” but not the bubbes? Somehow these snide characterizations only apply to the women, even though the actual activity itself (driving) is identical. I want to know why.
Why did you copy and paste your comment from above?
What do you mean by “not done correctly”? Are you referring to guf naki?
It’s not halacha. I don’t know a single rav who actually paskens that way.
This isn’t the only case of a halacha showing up in the Shulchan Aruch that we don’t pasken by anymore. Don’t pretend it’s such a huge chiddush.
I see that you didn’t answer my other question.
Syag Lchochma, yep…sigh…
It depends on your community, obviously. $25 strikes me as very low but not unheard of, whereas $80-$100 strikes me as unreasonably high. Remember, we’re talking about limudei kodesh, not high-level physics or mathematics. I would have guessed in the $30-$50 range– but again, that’s based on my community only.
Homeschooling can be a great option for a large family, where the marginal cost of educating each additional child in a yeshiva day school can really take a financial toll. For a smaller family, less so. But it does depend on the earning potential of the homeschooling parent.
The social aspect is definitely very important, but I don’t think it’s impossible to make friends without going to school. You still have shul, youth groups, Yiddle League or other sports organizations, etc etc. If there are other homeschooling families in your neighborhood, you can organize gatherings with them. Also, some kids start out in school and then transition to homeschooling, in which case they have already made friendships that they just need to maintain. Or even if they were homeschooled from the beginning, it’s possible that they at least went to daycare or nursery and the parents can encourage those friendships to continue as well, as the children grow older. It’s very doable if you’re committed.
Late to the party, but:
“I’m no fan of either either. I did find an ironic statement earlier that Chelsea Clinton, in a campaign, said how horrible it is that her grandmother (or great-grandmother, I forget) did not have access to Planned Parenthood. There is a major logical problem there…”
No, there isn’t. I’m sure that a product of rape would also say how horrible it is that the police couldn’t save her mother from her father’s attack.
cherrybim: That IS racism, though. The school is condoning racism if they have no qualms about bowing to the racist tendencies of their students’ families and their donors.
For all practical purposes, Edot HaMizrach and Sepharadim from Spain get lumped together in one category of “dark, exotic non-Ashkenazim”.
Not saying it’s right or wrong, but that’s the reality.
Not that they’re liars. Just that they will all say very similar, generic type things.
She can write in her personal description on the resume that she’s outgoing, etc. So we’re back to the question of why is it better to spend time calling up a bunch of people to learn information that you could have spent five minutes reading on the resume. (To be clear, I don’t think that you should NOT call references– but I do think that a personal statement should be included.)
“A girl should not and does not need to learn how to make a halachic decision in specific cases. A Rav should be consulted.”
Can you clarify what you mean by this?
Please clarify with specific examples. What is the “old” that we should or should not be retaining? What kind of lifestyle changes are we talking about here?
There are plenty of frum lawyers in BigLaw. It’s not easy, but it can be done.
Even with a lot of debt, proportionally speaking you’re still financially much better off with high income and high loan repayments– yes, even if you’re making the payments for a very long time.
You’re also much better off as far as career stability. The job market for lawyers is very tight right now. Without a degree from a good school, you could very well have periods of unemployment.
Joseph, did you read my earlier comment? The question was why you refer to women drivers specifically as “gallivanting”, “cruising around”, and “going on leisurely rides”, whereas by men driving is just driving.
So yes, “cruising around” and “gallivanting” are not unrelated.
Waiting for your response.
P.S. Yes, I WOULD “suggest that women be out of the home as frequently and as much as they desire.” I have never had to ask permission from my husband or my rav to leave my house (for any reason or no reason at all), or to justify to them why I “have to” leave the house. Never before, and I don’t intend to start now. There is absolutely nothing inappropriate or problematic about women stam leaving the house (obviously if they’re going to inappropriate places, that’s a different story). I am sure you’re aware that Chazal say a LOT of things that we don’t actually pasken by anymore.
False. A Chareidi lifestyle is not inherently superior to a non-Chareidi lifestyle. There are plenty of people out there who are halacha observant but not Chareidi. If you want to say that those who don’t observe halacha are missing out on what’s “important,” fine, but regarding hashkafic differences among halacha-observant populations (of which there are many), one is not inherently better than the other.
How are the references any more meaningful? Of course they’re all going to say nice things…
“jf02, sure I’d characterize male drivers as gallivanting when applicable. I didn’t characterize all female driving like that, I specifically referred to the times it’s applicable.”
Really? Because I’m pretty sure that this comment was just talking about driving in general, since you didn’t mention that it was in the context of frivolous or “unnecessary” travel.
“You don’t see Rebbetzins Kotler, Olshin, Schustal, Neuman, Salamon or Wachtfogel cruising around Lakewood.”
Joseph, batei din routinely issue rulings that they know will not be followed. That’s no argument. If they really believed it was so important, they would make these rulings so that their position would be clear, and it would send a message to Klal Yisroel.
Health: What are you talking about? This is an article published in the AMA Journal of Ethics, citing an APA study. The AMA obviously approves of the study, or it wouldn’t have published it at all…but regardless, I’m not sure that it matters. The AMA and the APA are both reputable associations. And they often work together, as is standard practice. No “manipulation” here.
Racism doesn’t have to be OK, just because goyim run from it. Goyim also believe that murder and rape are wrong, for instance.
It happens to be that racism is intrinsically wrong. I sincerely hope that I don’t have to explain further…
Even if you are paying for the degree yourself, your earning potential will be much higher coming out of an Ivy, so it’s a worthwhile investment.
It’s a gimmick. Like the ice bucket challenge, which was recently in the news again because the $115 million raised from the challenge funded research that ultimately led to the discovery of a new gene marker for ALS– a huge breakthrough.
People like to see other people get water dumped on them. It’s funny. That’s what gets them to open up their wallets. If not for the gimmick, $115 million would never have been raised in a single summer. People are happy to give tzedakah, they just need a reason to do it– the goofier, the better.
Of course, some walkathons or bikeathons are nice to support, because then you’re helping people get exercise and stay healthy. But I doubt most people contribute because of that. The “unrelated task” makes the contribution into something larger than just writing a check. It becomes a big event, a PR stunt. And it works.
benignuman: By “interested,” I mean interested in going out on a date. You cannot decide whether or not you would like to go on a date with someone, by going on a date with them. As far as eliminating the obvious– the shadchan should be more than capable of doing that. But now you still have piles and piles of resumes, and how do you decide which girl to date first? If the resume doesn’t say anything distinctive, it’ll have to be eeny meeny miney moe.
Hmm, funny how this years-old thread randomly gets bumped by an avowed anti-feminist, just a few days after I return to the Coffee Room…
Not taking the bait. Go troll somewhere else.
“ur allowed to say loshon hora about a goy kaal v’chomer if it will affect you, ur country, ur leader/president it might even be a mitzvah”
Um, I’m pretty sure that the personal status of Trump’s daughter doesn’t affect voters in the slightest. No mitzvah there, sorry.
Sorry, no! I like science in theory– I mean, I like the idea of it, and I like reading articles written for laymen on scientific subjects. But I don’t like to actually study science or math. Well, I did like geometry, but that’s about it.
When a marriage fails, there is no reason for the partners to stay together anymore. They should divorce regardless of whether or not they can or should reasonably expect a second marriage to succeed. It’s not healthy to stay in a dead marriage. In fact, it’s actually a Torah mitzvah for a man to divorce his wife.
Obviously, both partners should try very hard to avoid divorce. They should go to counseling and spend a lot of time communicating to work on their issues. Divorce should be a last resort. But sometimes it just doesn’t work out, and when it’s over, it should be a clean break. No one should stay in a dead marriage for the sake of being married.
Joseph, why is it that you refer to women drivers as “gallivanting”, “cruising around”, and going on “leisurely rides”? Would you ever characterize male drivers in this way? As far as I know, driving is not a common hobby or pleasure activity for anyone, male or female (we’re talking about driving normal cars, not race cars, which is obviously a different category altogether).
Also, how do you define “important”? Would you oppose a woman getting in her car to a friend’s house for a social visit, for instance?
Ben Levi:
It is true that the AMA’s policy manual simply states that they are opposed to conversion therapy, without giving a reason why or directly stating there that the therapy does not work. However, if you look at other materials and statements produced by the AMA, it is patently obvious that their stance is that the therapy is ineffective, and has even been shown to be damaging and harmful.
No links allowed here, but google “A Request for Conversion Therapy” and “AMA” and see what you find. It’s pashut that their position is not what you and Health believe it is.
Are we talking about boys or girls? There’s a big difference.
Also, as others have said, there is no “normal”. There is, perhaps, a “standard” or “typical” age to get married– but again, that will vary by community and certainly is different for boys vs. girls. And even then, there are those who will marry younger or older than the “standard” for their community, because people are people and they have different life experiences that lead them down different paths.
Of course, it doesn’t really matter, because you could be “ready to get married” or believe that you should get married at a certain age, but if Hashem doesn’t send you your bashert at that time, it simply won’t happen. So there’s no use worrying about it.
How can anyone decide if they’re interested or not based solely on vital statistics? If all the girls go with that approach, the boys will end up with dozens of virtually identical resumes and will have to resort to some form of eeny meeny miney moe to choose a date.
Runs with scissors, your friend should ask a shadchan to show her some resumes as a frame of reference. Then she should write a personal statement and work with someone who knows her well and has an eye for detail to edit it.
As far as references, she should choose a handful of people who know her well and in different ways. For instance, a personal friend, a family friend from her parents’ generation, and a seminary teacher.
Unfortunately, being divorced puts her at a major disadvantage. It shouldn’t be that way, but that is the reality. Hashem should guide her to find her bashert b’karov.
What’s the difference? The difference is that there is nothing inherently immodest about driving. If you believe that there is, please explain specifically what that would be, because I have absolutely no idea.