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Obviously I don’t know or claim to know everything that’s wrong with shidduchim. I think a big part of it is that boys are too picky. Another big issue– the one that is relevant to this subject– is that there is simply too much pressure on both the boys and the girls. Sure, there are “organized singles events”. But if you allow boys and girls to meet more naturally at a wedding, maybe they will be more relaxed and there will be less pressure. This way, when they introduce themselves, their true personalities will be allowed to come through and they are more likely to get along well.
Lol! That is too funny!
Yes, it is normal in my circles for men and women to have social relationships. What I am saying is that if more yeshivish circles were to allow mixed seating at weddings– for the purpose of finding a marriage partner, not for the purpose of mere socializing– it might help to mitigate the shidduch crisis.
Okay, I’ll respond to everything in order.
zahavasdad:
Selection of kosher food– yes, it is sometimes difficult to find kosher bread in smaller communities, but even that is not impossible to find. You would be surprised at the ease of finding other kosher foods. Las Vegas has a huge selection of kosher wines, including many labels I have never heard of before. We have kosher balsamic vinegar, kosher ramen noodles, kosher gummi bears, and lots of specialty products that are hard to find kosher. I even purchased, from the kosher section of a stam grocery store, a blue set of large spoons and spatulas marked DAIRY and a green vegetable peeler marked PAREVE. No labeling necessary! Who would have thought you could find these things in Vegas, and in a stam grocery store? It’s incredible.
Selection of schools– yes, you will have more to choose from in NYC. But you only need one school for each child, and unless you have children with learning disabilities or some other extenuating circumstances, choose a community that has a school that you like and you will be fine. Obviously you must research the school first, visit, find out if it will be a good fit. But do not be scared that there are two schools and not twenty if one of those two is a good quality school.
Frum kids to play with– you will of course live within the eruv. All the frum families will be concentrated in one area. You can decide how many friends you need your children to have. Even in a small community, you will not necessarily know every single person. Barring really tiny communities or really picky and asocial children, this should not be a concern.
Employers– I am not sure it is true that in NYC your employers will be more understanding. Being more knowledgeable about frum people will not necessarily work in your favor. Rebdoniel, this speaks to your comment about anti-Semitism as well. New York area employers will, for instance, have heard about all the chilul Hashem news stories (murder of Leiby Kletzky, the infants who died from herpes when a mohel practiced metzitzah, etc). You may in fact be better off in a small community where, by the way, the employers may be religious Christians and will totally respect your religious needs as opposed to in NYC where the employers are more likely to be atheists.
Seeing stores closed on shabbos– Okay, you won’t get much of that outside of New York. But in frum neighborhoods out of town, you can still walk in the middle of the street on shabbos. I don’t know about you, but that’s enough to give me “that feeling”.
rebdoniel:
Making aliyah can work either way economically. It obviously depends on your situation. If you have a career that will transition well to an Israeli market, and if you speak Hebrew passably well, you’re in much better shape than if your Hebrew is rusty and your career is distinctively American. If you eat a lot of produce, you will save more as an oleh than if you eat a more meat and potatoes diet. It just depends on what your lifestyle is. There are many factors to consider when discussing aliyah.
If you feel that social expectations are crimping your wallet, get out of your community. I’m completely serious. If shidduch dates at steakhouses and name brand clothing are values that you personally feel strongly about, go ahead. But if you’re only doing it to satisfy expectations? Don’t! There is no need! Find a community that comports well with your values. They do exist elsewhere in the New York area, if you really do not want to leave. Try Queens, Long Island, or New Jersey. Teaneck and Lakewood are obvious choices, but you might also consider Highland Park/Edison, Paramus, and Passaic.
“creative solutions to these problems…without compromising hiddurim and halakhic standards” See above. I wrote you a whole megillah.
You say that most people in “places like Texas” are “probably antisemitic [sic]”. Try visiting and then tell me what you think. Many goyim in what you deign to call “backwater places” are warm and friendly to everyone, including frum people, and will even ask you all kinds of questions about your frumkeit out of a genuine sense of curiosity and interest. Compare that to New Yorkers, who are rude and abrupt. I don’t know anything about Austin, but you would be completely safe in Dallas and Memphis, plus any number of other communities (I’ll give more examples if you want; I have a whole laundry list).
As for realism, everything I’ve said is completely grounded in reality and based on extensive research that my husband and I have done for the sake of deciding where we want to settle in a few years. We have visited many of these places already, called up rebbeim, and spoken to friends who live there.
It is still significantly cheaper than eating out all the time.
Furthermore, hechshered ground spices can be purchased cheaply. Vinegars other than wine and balsamic are available cheaply under hechshered national brands. Specialty oils are expensive, but then so are their non-kosher equivalents and they should be used sparingly anyway. Quality produce does not have to be expensive (it certainly isn’t in Israel, but even in the States you can find it reasonably priced if you eat seasonally and know where to shop). Kosher cheese, meat, and fish are more expensive than their non-kosher equivalents and therefore should be limited if you are looking to save money.
How about mixed seating at wedding receptions, allowing singles to meet naturally?
At my wedding, we put together a “singles table” hoping that some of our friends would hit it off with each other. No word yet on whether or not it was successful.
Accutane is also known to cause birth defects.
Food is more expensive for those who like to cook? On the contrary. It is cheaper to cook at home rather than go out to eat constantly.
Rules of the YWN Coffee Room:
“Posts that ask others to meet them at “Plonis” will not be approved…Additionally, please do not try to promote your store, business or product in a comment. We do not do free advertising.”
You cannot exchange contact information and you cannot agree to meet somewhere. This is not an ad forum.
A family of 3? Did your sister move out?
Yes, the pace of life is slower outside of NYC. Is this supposed to be a bad thing? I can’t stand all the crowds, noise, pushing and shoving, with everyone in a hurry to go nowhere!
In NYC you can buy kosher food at 2 A.M. and learn with geonim. But once you have a family and are working full time, I doubt you will be making after midnight excursions to restaurants anyway, and with the modern age of technology you can access any shiur you want online or on tape. Are those things really worth the tens of thousands of dollars difference per year in cost of living? Think about it.
zahavasdad, why do you “have to” live in NYC rather than Texas or Tennessee? We are considering both Dallas and Memphis, which have sizable frum communities. I am sure no frum person who lives there feels deprived that they don’t live in NYC. In Dallas you can afford a nice big house and the day school is amazing. The Memphis community has a lot of money, so if you don’t make very much you don’t have to worry about getting turned down for a scholarship. Both communities are warm and friendly. Also, Texas is conservative-minded, which is a better environment for frum people than the liberal bastion of NYC.
If you make aliyah, groceries will be significantly cheaper but your salary will be tiny and your tax bill will be huge. It depends on your earning capacity in this country. If you don’t make much here, make aliyah to lower your expenses.
Continued: Clothing
Why do frum men need haircuts more often than goyim or non-frum men? Is there something obvious that I’m missing?
I can’t yet comment on the cost of cleaning men’s clothing, having only been married a few weeks. I do know that for buying it in the first place, you can find inexpensive white shirts, black pants, and ties at TJ Maxx. They do not sell suits or blazers. For that, my husband likes Joseph A. Bank, which is high quality and often has good sales.
You mention that dressing the “right way” and taking shidduch dates to the “right places” can be social suicide. I have to say that if your friends expect you to spend money on these things, you’re in the wrong circles. Find a community that won’t judge you for economizing. Much of my clothing comes from hand me downs, secondhand stores, and discount stores. My first date with my husband was a stroll around a college campus (free). I think our second date was July 4 fireworks (also free). Dates do not have to involve food and certainly do not require full meals. I’ve had a number of shidduch dates in coffee shops and ice cream shops. Any girl who needs you to spend lots of money on her is not worth marrying.
$200K? Maybe. I don’t know what the number is. I do know that there are resources in the community to support you when you are struggling. There are gemachs for everything under the sun. Shuls, schools, mikvahs, etc. will often accept “whatever you can pay” if you explain your situation. Your local federation will offer job search assistance and resume review for free. And if you are truly needy, c”v, there are many frum organizations that will discreetly help out with cash and food.
You can save money on food and clothing without feeling in want. As far as hiddur mitzvah, consider how you can be mehudar in small but noticeable ways. If you are being supported by family or the community, consider whether now is the time to spend on extravagant hiddur mitzvah which is not, after all, halacha.
As far as “backwater, yennevelt communities”: New York is not the be-all, end-all. If you live out of town, so to speak, you will save a bundle on rent and can use that money for other expenses and “extras” that you would otherwise not be able to afford. You will also have a larger tzedakah budget. I am not suggesting that you move to Montana (I don’t think there is even a Chabad there) but you will be surprised by the vigor and beauty of smaller communities if you give them a chance. My husband and I are investigating several smaller communities to settle down in when he finishes law school. It requires a lot of research. Call rabbis, ask around, do a Google search. The cost of living is significantly cheaper. What will you be missing out on? The smoke, the noise, the horrendous commute, the sky-high rent, the even higher crime rate? Listen, I know New York has its perks. That’s why I like to visit. But do your homework before you call a smaller community “backwater”.
I apologize. I just noticed that you did in fact mention day school tuition in your original post. Somehow I missed it.
Continued: Ritual Needs
Some of the expenses in this category are non-negotiable. Others can be mitigated.
Shabbos and yuntif candles can be purchased in bulk. As for Yahrzeit candles, you need a long-burning candle, but it is not necessary to buy candles specifically marketed as Yahrzeit candles. I wait for the large scented candles to go on clearance and then stock up on them.
Bobby pins are inexpensive and a negligible expense. They are not necessarily a “frum” expense either, since many women, including goyim and non-frum women, use them in their hair. Kippot can be expensive but do not have to be! If you must wear black velvet, order online rather than in a sefarim store and you will save (but buy other things you need at the same time to offset the cost of shipping). If you will wear a crocheted kippah, you can buy a cheap one at a sefarim store or pay a little more to buy from someone who makes them by hand (my mother does this). It will pay off because the handmade ones are better quality and will last longer. My brother has had some of his since before his Bar Mitzvah and they are holding up great.
As for women’s head coverings, you don’t mention shaitels, which are a huge expense but cannot be scrimped away. Hats, however, can be bought cheaply. While I was engaged, I spent a grand total of $13 on three hats on clearance: one at TJ Maxx ($4), one at Sears ($7), and one at Claire’s ($2). I wear each of them with my fall, which incidentally was free with purchase of a shaitel. I have a few hats for shabbos that are more expensive, but everyday hats absolutely do not have to cost a fortune. Tichels are significantly cheaper in Israel than in the United States. I asked my brother to bring me back some from Israel when he went a few months ago. Obviously he did not know exactly what colors and styles I would want, but he spent very little and brought me back a nice starting stock of tichels. One of my cousins, knowing that they are cheaper in Israel, bought some for herself while in seminary knowing that she would eventually need them. May she find her bashert soon!
Inspecting tefillin and mezuzot is an expense that cannot be avoided. Sefarim are very costly and also cannot be avoided, although I have been shocked to see how many households do not even spend on a basic Shas. No matter how tight money is, one should always have a sefarim budget, even a small one. I do wish that those who run sefarim stores would be a little more polite because I think some people are turned off by the rudeness and abruptness (I’m sure there are multiple exceptions to this, but it’s a trend I have noticed among different communities). Anyway, that’s a topic for another time.
Audio shiurim are free online, and many communities have a Torah tape gemach. Classes are also generally free. I know there are many that cost money, but with so many high-quality ones available that are free, why spend the money when you don’t have to?
The cost of tzitzis adds up if you don’t care for them well and have to keep replacing them. Place them in a mesh bag before you wash them and put the laundry machine on the delicates cycle. They will last longer this way.
As noted, day school/yeshiva tuition is a huge expense. I was fortunate to attend a day school with a tremendous commitment to scholarship that does everything in its power to attract talmidim whose families cannot afford “sticker price”. However, not all schools are like this. Many will expect a family to pay 20% of its income to the school. Sibling discounts are a joke. I am not familiar with the cost of tuition for the children of day school teachers– perhaps they offer a more substantial discount– but day school teachers get paid next to nothing, so even if so it’s a wash. This is the primary reason why the incremental cost of each additional child is so high. Clothing can be handed down and cooking for say, seven is not significantly different than cooking for six. But tuition is a real concern.
Student loans are not a “frum” expense and can be avoided if you attend a state school, are gifted enough to earn a full ride to college, and/or your parents have money in the bank.
Flowers for shabbos can add up. Try artificial flowers or set the table differently, e.g. use cloth napkins with decorative napkin holders, “charger” plates underneath each setting, artistic name tags for each family member and guest. Anything that is an investment rather than a repeat expense week after week will save you a bundle and achieve the same effect l’kavod shabbos.
Gifts for your wife and children for yuntif do not have to be expensive. Was it the rambam who said you should give nuts and dried fruit to your children? My husband is sleeping, so I can’t ask him.
My parents never attended yeshiva meetings and shul dinners. Unless you have a personal kesher to someone who is being honored at one of these events, it is not necessary. Once you have paid your basic membership dues and tuition, the shuls and schools will continue to ask you for more money. Review your finances and treat this additional money as tzedakah. Give appropriately for your situation. It is not socially necessary to sit through the dinners and listen to the speeches when you could be learning Torah or spending time with your family. (By the way, unless I missed it, which is quite possible, you don’t mention tzedakah as an expense. Don’t forget to factor that in to your budget).
Continued:
Communal Fees
You can certainly “shul-hop” without having multiple shul memberships. Pick one shul as your “primary shul” and pay a membership fee there. If you feel guilty about utilizing other shuls without paying membership, make occasional donations to those shuls. I will also add that as a young single person, nobody expects you to pay a membership fee anyway.
I do not know many men who visit the mikvah weekly. Kudos to you. This will, obviously, be an additional expense that most families do not have. Mikvah fees can be as low as $12 or as high as $36, and when i”yh you are married you will have to multiply that by five instead of one per month. However, many mikvaot have sliding scale payment policies. I do not know about for men, but certainly for women nobody will be turned away for lack of money. I would assume the same for men. But if you are so needy that you cannot afford to pay the mikvah fee, while it is certainly commendable to visit the mikvah on erev shabbos, I would consider whether or not you want the community to support that minhag when you don’t have a chiyuv for it.
However, MO families have fewer children.
You forgot the biggest expense and the one that is impossible to “skimp” on: day school!
Regarding the others: you make many valid points. Here are some suggestions:
Food
Unless you want fancy china, which is really unnecessary, at most you need three sets of dishes– milchig, fleishig, and Pesachdik. Weekday/shabbos is not a necessity, particularly since many families a) use paper during the week anyway or b) generally eat milchig during the week and fleishig on shabbos. If neither of these applies to you and you want to make a weekday/shabbos distinction with table settings in addition to food, you can get a few nice serving platters or a crystal pitcher. No need for an entire set of new dishes. For Pesach, you can again use paper, but if you’d rather not do that, get a cheap set of Corelle (my husband and I brought a set of Corelle to Vegas because it’s just for the summer; kal v’chomer Pesach which is only one week). Corelle also stores well and doesn’t break (great for little kids who like to “help”).
As far as Pesach food, yes you need to buy all new stuff, but anything nonperishable CAN BE REUSED year to year if you store it properly and have the space. This is a huge money saver. Also, if you stockpile nonperishable Pesach food, you will have access to a wider variety of spices. It’s so annoying to only buy a handful of spices because it’s “only for Pesach” and then integrate them into your chametz stock, and really how many jars of cinnamon and garlic powder does a person need? Just be very careful when you are putting them away so that the lids close tightly and make sure your family knows not to touch it year round. Ideally, it should be stored somewhere that’s out of the way so no one will accidentally contaminate it. Also keep in mind in terms of stockpiling food that the grocery stores will run a huge sale on Pesach products the day after Pesach ends. Buy everything half price and put it away for next year. You must be careful though if you have already changed over your kitchen that you put it away IMMEDIATELY and do not let it get contaminated.
Regarding desserts, Pesach desserts are so not worth the money and/or effort anyway. Just serve fresh fruit, Elite chocolate bars, marshmallow twists/fruit jells if you like that stuff (I don’t, but many people go crazy over it), macaroons, etc. You can also make a KFP cheesecake with crushed almonds, macaroons, cereal, or cake meal for the crust, or chocolate pudding or chocolate mousse. Be creative. Pesach “cake” is disgusting.
Kosher food in general can get expensive, but it depends on how you eat and how you shop. Limiting meat and fish consumption is helpful, as is buying national brands that are kosher certified rather than frum brands (if you really want to support the frum brands, go ahead, but this will bulk up your grocery bill significantly).
Prepared kosher food is expensive, as are kosher restaurants, for a lesser quality than treif prepared and restaurant food (both my father and my husband were baalei teshuvah and could attest to this personally). Making food from scratch wherever possible will cut down on this cost. If time is a concern, cook in bulk and freeze things. Also avoid kosher frozen products, which can get SUPER expensive. It’s not worth the tradeoff in convenience.
Make friends with the reduced produce section and clearance shelf of your supermarket. You’ll have to plan meals accordingly so that the produce doesn’t spoil before you get a chance to use it, but it’s well worth the savings.
If you live near a co-op, join! Or get a Costco membership, or make friends with someone who has one and go with them.
Watch out for good deals on nonperishable food on Amazon (crazy, I know, but they have an extensive grocery selection which often runs really good deals). If you are willing to buy in bulk and buy when the sale is and keep it around until you need it, you will save a bundle. I have a case of almond milk sitting in my mother’s basement waiting until we settle down somewhere and can take it with us. I use almond milk a lot and got a REALLY good price on Amazon, and it’s shelf stable.
Find a blog or website that tracks sales and follow it. I like Kosher on a Budget. You can also just check the Amazon Gold Box page on a daily basis.
Just a few thoughts from a newlywed who’s starting to get a sense of how to run a household. Taking a break from the Internet now; will return shortly to post more.
My husband used to have long hair (years before I knew him; he looks so different in those old pictures!!) He says that he would just pull his hair back before putting on tefillin.
My comment was in response to nishtayngesheft.
What matzav?
U’shmartem es nafshosaychem
Google “Moshiach’s Hat” if you want to know why creating these divisions is dangerous.
Parslic is a “thing” everywhere. I have actually heard some people call it sparlic.
Why not just rip or cut the crust away from the pizza to avoid hygiene issues?
rebdoniel, it took you this long to figure it out?
Actually, there is a nice frum community here. We have several shuls, mikvahs, and an eruv. I believe there is even a day school through 8th grade.
Yes it is only a little, and only occasionally, and it works well for me.
Just when you thought you had experienced performance, a new ride comes along and changes everything.
$200 on wine? Oy vey…
$15-$20 is what I consider “nice”, and $35 is a real splurge. I don’t think I would spend $200 on a bottle of wine even if I won the lottery.
Congratulations, now everyone knows who you are. Mods, is this really appropriate?
I second that! lol
We are spending the summer in Las Vegas because my husband has an internship here. We don’t want to settle down in Vegas, but it’s nice to see a new place and will be great work experience for his resume.
I love grilled tomatoes and onions and grilled asparagus (I make it all the time in a grill pan, but it would be even better on an open flame).
You could also set out a tray of cubed vegetables and meats and long bamboo skewers, and let people make their own skewers and grill them. That way, everyone gets exactly what they want. I really like a Hawaiian “jerk” style skewer. Being a vegetarian, I use tofu, pineapple, onion, mango, tomato, and red pepper, but I bet it would work well with steak too (and make sure to drizzle with barbecue sauce). That’s just one example. Play around with it.
Yes, they are kosher. We are planning on ordering a SodaStream from Amazon.
We are having trouble finding kosher bread here in Las Vegas (Bimbo is not available). At times we end up resorting to sandwich thins. When we are more settled, I will probably just bake bread from scratch.
What nonsense. Even gedolim are not infallible.
Appreciating good wines (in moderation, of course) is a pleasure, not a “habit”.
Just mash the eggs with your (clean) hands!
Don’t drink anything caffeinated within a few hours of going to sleep. Set a regular sleep schedule for yourself. Play soothing music or get one of those machines that will play nature sounds. Make sure your mattress, pillow, and sheets are comfortable and clean.
I sometimes have a bit of alcohol just before bed. That helps, too.
The only way to do this is to drink a lot of wines. Be patient. You will have to try many different types and you will not like most of them at first. Also, find a friend who is a wine connoisseur to help you.
Oh, I misunderstood. Regardless, what if the opposite is true– if one cannot fall asleep on one’s side?
B”h I’m a side sleeper anyway.
Can you post the recipe?
I have never heard of this halacha. What if someone is unable to fall asleep lying flat?
So you make this deal with someone, you stay home, he doesn’t.
You’ll never know.
Does it really taste like chametz pasta? I’m skeptical, but maybe I’ll try it next year!
Lol! I’m glad he let you keep it! My husband loves Meal Mart chopped liver.
Does a baalas teshuvah have to light thousands of candles for all the weeks she missed before she was frum?
I mean this somewhat seriously.
How is emphasizing the importance of kibud eim “political”? It takes my breath away to see ostensibly frum Yidden suggesting that it is not “worthwhile” for a yeshiva bachur to sit down and learn with his mother because it would be a “waste of time”.
If his mother wants to learn with him on occasion, why deny her that pleasure? Until he gets married, she is the one enabling his yeshiva education and he owes her a great deal.
The meatballs sound great, and not too complicated either. I don’t know how you can stand KFP pasta, though.
He is making the same mistake that you are. Chabad is a proper noun. Apparently you both insist on misspelling it.
I also can’t stand mayonnaise-based dips. They’re unhealthy and have a heavy taste.
I prefer pestos (in addition to traditional basil pesto, I love garlic scape pesto), parslick (garlic/parsley), herbed margarine, hummus, salsa, and guacamole.
Incidentally, I eat all of my pizza slice, including the crust at the end, but if you don’t like it plain, I would suggest repurposing it to avoid waste. Cut the crust into cubes, roll it in a little oil, spices, and Parmesan cheese (it’s milchig already anyway) and bake it. Now you have salad croutons!
me too