jewish and working 22

cholentkugelkishke:

Thank you.

So, in the end we agree that a kol korei is just advice and not halacha, I am all for that.

Just for the record, I do disagree with a lot of the ways the “yeshivish society” conducts itself as a whole (there are always exceptions). Kol korei’s do not bother me, as long as they do not affect me personally.

In regards to me “disagreeing” with the “60 rabbonim”: If they based there “advice” on facts then I would agree and follow there kol korei.

However, if they base it on their opinion, and these days that usually means the opinion of some over zealous individual who wants people to be as machmir as him or even more so, and not their own, that I won’t follow.

cholentkugelkishke:

“what they have done is publicize their Da’as Torah that shadchonim should attempt to make shidduchim amongst couples close in age. You don’t agree with them & feel that you can tell 60 Rabbonim what they can and can’t say. “

I don’t feel I can tell anyone anything.I beleive that everyone should whatever they want and learn from the mistakes made. It is called growing up. In yeshivish society, they don’t believe in maturing. And they like to have someone to blame all their failures. In my opinion, I think that the proclamation would do more harm than good. But that is just my opinion.

And, you still have not answered my question: If your Rav advises you to do something would you listen to him or not? Why do you think my “moshol” is bad? I was always of the impression if a Rav advises his constituents then they should listen, isn’t that the point of a Rav? To guide?

cholentkugelkishke:

“jewishandworking22 – You truly are not understanding this issue. Your “moshol” is way off . The Rabbonim have spoken, and you don’t agree with them.”

So now you are claiming that it is a RULE and you MUST abide by the kol korei. Since, if it is only suggestions, then one does not have to “AGREE” to anything.

Please make up your mind.

Thank you,

bein_hasdorim:

I agree with your points and would just like to add the following:

In my experience, older girls that are working usually become disenfranchised with the way the older boys in the yeshivish world act and conduct themselves. These girls, as you mentioned, have become independent in one degree or another. However, most of the older boys are still in yeshiva and have not had any experience in responsibility. As mentioned in other threads, there are still boys in their late 20s+ who still have their mother making decisions for them.

Further, most of the older girls are working, and have been doing so for some time. They are used to a lifestyle where they can go shopping and spend money as they please. They, therefore, look for the same in a guy, since they would want to start a family and have to stop working at some point. This, I regrettably have to say, has not become the standard, rather it is the exception, in our society. The “men” believe that the women should still work, while 9 months pregnant, to support the household while they sit and learn, or if they have finally decided to obtain some responsibility, while they go to college to earn a degree.

(mods please keep in caps those words that are, it is meant for extreme emphasis)

As someone in the “parsha” and in the “shidduch system” I will agree with A600KiloBear and say that there is no shidduch crisis but a system crisis.

This so called dilemma is a figment of parents and rabbis (and rebbetzins) imagination when a girl is still single at the antediluvian age of 21 and the boy is still single at the ancient age of 25. DOES THIS NOT SEEM ABSURD!

Most of the single people I know (both girls and boys) do not think that they are despondent or in middle of the above mentioned “crisis”. It usually is the parent that is worrying beyond measure “why isn’t my daughter married; why can’t my son find a normal girl”.

If the society we live in will just “GET OFF OUR BACKS” and stop pushing the girls to get married right out of seminary and the boys to get married when they aren’t mature, then this so called disaster will dissipate. Let EVERYONE go at their own pace and when they feel ready.

This does not mean that Rabbonim should come out and say that boys should try to date girls that are older, but it also doesn’t mean that the boys should limit themselves to minors or barely legal girls. Let everyone find their significant other without guidelines from any outsider (meaning anyone BUT the boy and girl). Give advice if requested, or even if it isn’t, but don’t set statutes and whom can date whom, when and where.

Maybe the crisis is that boys and girls in the “parsha” have too much peer pressure or stress to conform to societies warped sense dating and marriage.

NY Mom:

Actually I was getting at that noone should be say that their should be a time period. I have MO friends who have dated for year(s) and are happily married with kids. It all matters on the couple. Whatever their views and thoughts are, should be between them, and noone else.

Personally, I do not think that dating for 6 weeks and going out only 12 times is enough. However, this is the norm these days in the yeshivish world. I personally, would not force my views on anyone, and I expect the same from others.

If someone asks me my view, my answer is as before (paraphrasing) “whenever you feel the time is right”. Noone else but the two people involved in the dating, know when that time will occur.

AZ:

I’m living on a normal planet. Where people get together and talk to each other. And friends set up their friends with others. I tried doing the whole shadchan thing, I still do listen to strangers who come along with a girl (one never knows), but I finally realized a while back that it just DOES NOT WORK. It’s a degrading, broken system. As proof to my case, a lot of people (and especially young singles (18-25) ARE complaining of a shidduch crisis and the process, instead of praising the system.

To tell the truth, I never officially met a professional shadchan, but my cousin is one, and have a few friends who are also considered “professional” and I tell them straight out that I do not believe in them setting me up with complete strangers from their “lists”.

My friends who do go to meet professional shadchanim come back and complain to me each that it was the most degrading 30 minutes – an hour, of their lives. Furthermore, none of them think, coming out of that meeting, that any goods will come from it. And in the end, very little has come from the meetings (can’t say nothing but definitely not worth it in the grand scheme of things).

As I posted in a different thread, I believe that we should shut down the system we have now and go back to the what we had 10 plus years ago. Word of mouth. Friends, family, and neighbors setting up people they KNOW, not COMPLETE STRANGERS. This process will most probably make more shidduchim, with less complications during the dating process and throughout the respective marriage.

Jewess:

If I’m not mistaken that quote comes from, or is similar to, one that is in the new testament.

I know Yeshivah Darchei Torah in Far Rockaway REQUIRES white shirts for the boys in their high school

Pashuteh Yid:

Nope only fools.

Every one who is a real ben torah realizes that in a few weeks we will be reading from the TORAH that avraham had guests and not only that, he didn’t have children.

But he was only the father of judaism and not someone great, like Joseph, or his rabbi, from where he gets his nourishkeit from.

AZ:

“Would you consider a scenario where the boy and girl go out more than a couple of times simply a “silly suggestion” from a “yenta”? I beg to differ. Clearly it was on the mark and as such the shadchan did what can they can be expected to do.”

In matter of fact I do consider it a “silly suggestion” from a “yenta”. But that is my personal opinion. Talking about a person you personally do not go to, but “chases” you, I do not think it should be a requirement to pay a person that is doing you a favor. I think you should give, and I will give when I get married, a gift, monetary or otherwise, to the shadchan, to show my thanks. However, a requirement to pay a person for doing a mitzvah? That I do not agree with in the slightest.

However it is not like I disagree with you. If someone is actively “hounding” after a shadchan I think they should pay, but they should pay for a finished product. The number of dates DO NOT MATTER. Compare it to a real estate broker. Does the broker get paid for all the time he/she puts into the sale of the job even if the house does not sell? Do they get paid according to how many people they show the house to? Or do they get paid when the contract is signed.

So too by shidduchin. Just because the shadchan “showed” (i.e. set up) a girl or boy twenty, thirty, or even forty times does not mean she/he should get paid until they “sign the contract” (get engaged).

Just-a-guy:

You are erroneous in your statement. Walk through the streets of Manhattan. If you deign to look at other individuals you will see that there are plenty of people in the corporate world who wear white shirts and plain black suits, and THEY AREN’T JEWISH (GASP).

Just my two cents:

If an individual, or his/her mother, goes to a shadchan and asks that person to make a shidduch, then that is a business transaction and the shadchan should get paid after the completion of a successful arrangement. I have never heard of anyone paying for someones “best efforts”, only for a “successful effort”

However, my experience (yes, I am in the “Parsha” and dating, and I deal with these individuals on a constant basis)is that a lot of the amateur shadchanim (I use that lightly because I believe all Shadchanim, even the “professional” ones, are amateurs) are just yenta’s. I never asked any of my parents friends/relatives/complete strangers to set me up with individuals who are completely unfamiliar even to them. In most cases, it turns out to be a waste of mine, and the girls, time.

Yes, it is a great mitzvah to set someone up. And yes, I am grateful that these individuals are looking out for my well-being and want to see me married. However, for me to pay them because they want to do me a favor, I totally and emphatically disagree. When I do get married, I plan on showing my “hakoras hatov” to the individual who set me up by doing whatever I believe is necessary, not what others think.

I usually don’t comment but I’m just going to put my two cents in since I am a single guy, 23 years old, in the “parsha”.

First there are the same amount of girls in the world, and Jewish society, as there are boys. The difference is, as mentioned in previous posts, that there is a four year dating gap between boys and girls. Therefore, girls have 4 times the amount of individuals in the “parsha” than boys do.

Second, to get guys to date girls, I am reiterating what others have been saying throughout the years, is to let the boys and girls meet each other through controlled single events.

I personally do not look at the shidduch resumes of the girls that I go out with, due to the fact that, most of the time, what is written and what the girl is looking for is two, I can’t say totally but can say it does range from minor to significant, different things.

As mentioned above these are “resumes”. And as anyone who is working knows that you need to use specific terminology for resumes. Also, girls try to put down on their resumes what they think the shaddchan and boy is lookin for, not what they actually want. I made the mistake of actually believing the resumes and shadchannan when I started dating. I quickly stopped. It is easier to go out with a girl with knowing the bare minimum about her and listen to her as to what she is really looking for. I also only go out now with people who really know me and the girl.

I propose to get rid of the the concept of the “shidduch resume” (I really would like to know how it came into effect in the first place because when my older brother was dating, who is five years older than me, there was no such thing as a resume). If a shadchan KNOWS a girl and a boy, and I mean really knows them not just “I met this girl once for 5 MINUTES and she is perfect for you”, then they should “redd” the shidduch.

The professional shadchan business is like shooting fish in a barrel; you keep on shooting and eventually you will hit enough times to make you seem like you know what you are doing.

Just my “two cents”.