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AZ:
I know you are a big proponent of the age gap theory so I would not try to convince or debate you regarding that topic. However, you have to agree that the age-gap theory is not the answer to every shiddcuh disproportion. Personally, I agree with Justin2 that us boys d not want to get involved in single events.
Also, as I and others stated elsewhere, a lot of boys do not like dealing with shadchanim or the shiduch process.
justin2:
I agree with 100%. The only time I went to a singles event, the boys who have been going to these things just sat around and made fun of the girls. Or they were ogling them like pieces of meat that were on display (which technically the girls were).
I have never gone back to an event again. I have no want for the girls to be put on display. I’d rather see a girl in a social setting where she is not trying to impress people and therefore I get to see the REAL girl.
A person should find someone they like and the want to live with for the rest of their life.
Besides, in our times, how many of these bochurim learning are ever going to become “a real talmid chacham”?
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oomis1105:
Thanks!
happy girl:
You call it “unfortunate”. I call it fortunate. This allows the men and women to interact with their contemporaries and meet people without having any stigma attached to them. In the UWS there is a diverse number of people. You have from “blackhatters” straight through the MO crowed. And no one judges anyone based on where they stand in regards to religion or views of the world.
Again, most do not “become less frum, drink alcohol, do drugs, become lax in halacha with girls, become lax in kosher”. This generalization of the UWS is similar to saying that all Jews cheat (which I hope is erroneous even in light of the current events of the past year).
AZOI.IS:
I don’t have any specific place. It happens in everyday places and circumstances. It is usually by weddings, or if I see a girl on the train that seems to need a lift or is confused as to what stop to get off, I will go over to her and talk to her. Sometimes the girl comes over to me and asks how to get somewhere and I strike up a conversation. One time I met a girl in the airport while we were waiting for a plane that was delayed (we were pretty much the only two people in the airport (the plane was delayed for 3 hours and neither of us checked before we got there).
After a few conversations (or one long one) if I am interested I would ask her for her phone number. Sometimes the girl says yes and sometimes no. Call me old fashion, but I like to be pro-active and not complain about any conceived crisis, shadchanim, age-gap, or any other excuse. I still go on shidduch dates, but I go on regular dates as well.
happy girl:
The answer to your question is YES. I usually only go out with a girl if friends, or the shadchan, know me and the girl personally. Not any of my parents friends who remember me when I was six and met a girl for 5 minutes. The same goes for shadchanim. They only meet a girl for a few minutes and have her resume. This does not allow you to set up a girl. You don’t KNOW her.
I am all for meeting girls on my own, which I do as well.
Happy Girl:
Most of the working guys when they get older, tend not to want to sit around after work. We tend to go out and relax after a long day of work. If this means that we watch a movie or TV or go someplace with friends then so be it. This does not make us less frum.
It seems to me what you are describing “they become less frum, drink alcohol, do drugs, become lax in halacha with girls, become lax in kosher” are high school kids that are rebelling.
Furthermore, most men who are older and are working usually DO move out of their parents house, not because of rebelling or as such but because they want to live on their own and have their own life. Most working boys are mature, logical, and have long term goals set, not like “just married” couples at the age of 21 or younger, or boys still learning in kollel, who are still relying on their parents.
cholentkugelkishke:
It is not a new approach. It is just packaging the same thing in a new package. People still post resumes online and have to go through a shadchan. This does not work out off the internet, do you think it would work on the internet as well???? All shidduch world does is make resumes more accessible. Personally, I wouldn’t trust any resume posted on an online site, no matter who vetted it.
I hope they do great, prove me wrong, and show that their concept of shidduch dating will work. But, I’m afraid, history most probably will prove itself again.
Most people are cynical about shidduchim period. Not about people trying to help others.
The reason why people are pessimistic about shiduchim is because what we have now does not work. what people see with shidduch world and other shidduch helping sites is that people are trying to do the same process in different forms and getting the same results. This reminds me of the famous saying by Albert Einstein: “Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.”
I guess us boys show some backbone in something. Maybe if we can get the girls to stop going to shadchanim maybe we can end this “crisis” and truly get people married.
Happy Girl & AZ:
A lot of boys do not go to shadchanim because most come away with a disgusting feeling. I personally do not go to shadchanim. However, every time one of my friends goes to one they call me up and complain that it was the most demeaning encounter they ever have had. They come back feeling like they were stripped down, examined, and then thrown in to a dark place somewhere. The swear that they lost 15 minutes or half an hour of their life which they will never get back. This gets around to all the other boys and we avoid that shadchan (and this happens almost to every single one).
Perhaps if shadchanim do not turn the meeting into a butcher sale where they poke and proud the meat then maybe more boys would come to meet them.
potsandpans:
Very long post, and you make some valid points.
However, I will tend to agree with Oomis on this point.
You are correct that most relationships in high school do not culminate in marriage. Most of the time, it is broken off because the couple was dating for fun and to be cool, not for marriage. However, that is expected when dating at such an age. Most of the kids do not realize what life is actually about.
However, what I believe Oomis is getting to is more the social aspect. Kids, when dating and interacting with their social opposites when they are younger, learn life experiences and how to deal with the opposite gender better than when they are starting at a later age. IMO, You can not gain this experience talking to your cousins and brothers/sisters. When was the last time you took a sibling or cousin on a date? You interact differently with family than you do with someone you might plan on marrying/dating.
Furthermore, I would like to point out that you might agree with Oomis. You said that the boys/girls are not mature enough when they are younger to get together at social events. What I got from your post is that after seminary/yeshivah the boys/girls WILL be mature enough to go to social events that are not chaperoned by a Rav or is not a shiur.
You mentioned that you dated boys so I assume you are/were in the parsha. My question to you is how many of the boys actually treated you nicely on a date. Most of the bais yackov girls I went out with complained to me that their previous dates do not show an ounce of social grace when it comes to dating. However, my MO friends all agree that the boys know how to interact and treat them with respect instead of like a piece of meat (or a an enigma).
Dating at a younger age allows boys and girls to treat each other with respect when they get older and we wont have this “shiudduch crisis” (which IMO there really isn’t one) or crazy standards from boys and girls about what they want in a spouse.
happy girl:
Thanks. You too!
Does anyone know where we can find transcripts or articles on all the seminars given over the weekend?
When talking to my Rosh Yeshiva in regards to dating one of the many pieces of advice he gave me was the following:
“You have to think the following on your dates ‘Can you see yourself waking up next to the girl for the next 50 years’.” Meaning are you attracted to her. Attraction is relative to everyone, therefore there are no standards. However, it is definitely one of the most important aspects a boy should consider on his dates.
Mods – Thanks!
Happy Girl:
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/broken-engagements/page/2#post-111957
happy girl:
Check out what I wrote on page two (about 3/4’s of the way down the page).
(Mods is there a way i can reference my previous posts) without pasting and/or retyping them?
mosherose:
“How dare you call a minhag that yidden have observed for thousands of years “pointless”?”
If this is regarding my statement made previously,if you are using quotes, please quote accurately (all you need to do is copy and paste).
Please bring proof that shtar mechilah is something we have been doing “for thousands of years”. I believe, as I stated previously, that this concept of this shtar is something new that was never done previously, and I will stand by words unless proven otherwise.
The statement and quote by mosherose was clearly in response to Wolf, quoted exactly, and was regarding tanaaim not shtar mechilah.
haifagirl:
Don’t forget, according to moshrose, you shouldn’t be able to go to a shadchan either, unless it is a family member. Chas V’sholom if your talking to a shadchan that might be married herself and maybe a male member of her household might walk into the house that you are in while meeting with her. Or even worse, perhaps that shadchan is a male and then you get into all sorts of trouble. <sarcasm>
Mosherose:
In your view of the world, this definition that you have that “There’s no reason to socialize with anyone who is not your family.” Does this include grandparents and cousins or only parents and siblings?
Does this mean you only go to simcha’s that only have immediate family and noone else?
If you can get the rabbonim to do a kol korei on this, it will greatly reduce the size and expenditures of weddings, bar mitzvahs, etc… You would have single handedly saved the simcha-making crisis.
mybat:
You brought an interesting point to the conversation, which leads directly to the the topic at hand (post-shidduch crisis).
You wrote “there are others that married out of pressure and or of convenience”. I am glad that people are getting married, however, to get married for those reasons makes a perversion of the concept of marriage. I am sorry to say, but we are no longer in the middle ages, we (at least litvish (is that how you spell it??)) do not have arranged marriages. We are not european nobility where the children get married to form alliances (though I do believe this still occurs in the chasidishe world).
We should stop forcing girls and guys to get married to someone that is not right for them just because we are afraid that they won’t get married at the ripe age of 19. We should not advocate that girls get married right out of seminary (if they are not ready) and boys to marry for money (which is happening according to my cousin who is a professional shadchan).
If couples get married because they are truly right for each other than one of them will always stand up for the relationship no matter what is happening. And 99% of the time the couple WOULD see each other as the most special, beautiful person in the world.
So instead of advocating not having your friends over for meals of getting together with your friends as couples, let us ban marriages of conveniences and pressure. Let the couples marry because they like their spouse.
Oomis:
Thanks for the backing. It is a pleasure to note that there are people who are not afraid of there own shadow.
Arc:
You are right. So my answer, as previously stated, is that BMG has a right to look out for its interests just like anyone else. That does not mean that if they say something than “the 6,000” individuals associated with them, the many families that are alumni of BMG, and the families that have nothing to do with it should follow what they say. They are like a corporation; they should have one voice, state their point, the reasoning behind it, and let every individual decide for his or herself what they want to do.
Jmatt:
I agree with you, to a point. I am not saying that you should do stuff that you are not comfortable with. That is a decision that each person makes by themselves.
However, I respectfully disagree with you and stand by my words. We should NOT ban young couples (not families but couples) from having each other over as guests. I believe that it builds a sense of community, friendships, and support system that will be there for years to come.
My parents have friends who they don’t talk to on a constant basis but whenever they need something, or need to stay over for shabbos for a simcha, they do not hesitate to call them., This is due to the friendship that they forged when they were all young married couples.
I am sorry to say, but not all innocent activities lead down the road to disaster. If you are not strong enough, or you do not think your marriage is strong enough, then do not have guests over. But there should not be a blanket ban, as those that are suggesting, because of a select few.
Jothar:
Why do you think that have a strong foundation for marriage is bad? Isn’t this whole thread discussing this? Why marriages fail so early in there existence?
Jothar:
For the record, I am a male.
MM and Jothar:
So we agree that one can go against BMG. As of right now, BMG has the power to sway people in the community to what they want.
However, if those individuals that are against some of the ideas that BMG has, gain enough influence to oppose BMG, then they should be allowed.
And they should be able to voice their ideas as well. Even now, they should able to voice their opposition, no matter how small a voice (called a minority opinion).
Jothar:
I would definitely agree with you, that if you moved to Lakewood, than BMG is part of it as well. Therefore, you can not complain that there are so many “black hatters” in the community or any other petty complaint.
However, that does not mean you have to support BMG or agree with them in any manner. If you want to go and do something your way, you should be able. This is a democratic country we live in. And just as BMG is allowed all the freedom to operate and become a leading torah institution, so too a person who moves there can be anti-BMG and exercise that right as well.
Would you stop a non-jewish person from moving into Lakewood if they so choose? What happens then? Do they, too, need to toe the line that BMG wants. I would say no. So too, by a regular jewish family that likes the jewish atmosphere of Lakewood but does not agree with BMG and their policies, they should not have to “toe the line” according to what BMG wants.
Mybat and Poster:
“”a good looking sweet woman will attract a man no matter how commited he is . Men should not fool themselves – this is the way Hashem created man.”
I would acquiesce to you that point that a VERY good looking women would always attract a mans eye, however, that does not mean that the guy would stray from his marriage. If he has a true marriage then he would think that his wife is the MOST BEAUTIFUL LADY in the room, no matter who is in it. That is marriage. When a person strays it does not matter if they have guests over or not, the person would cheat on his wife even without the “excuse” of guests because the couple does not have a relationship.
Now if you want to say that the post-shidduch crisis is because we do not give young couples enough time to make a foundation for their marriage. That they don’t feel that the other is the most beautiful, special person in the world, then that is a problem with the marriage/dating system we have in place and it should be changed.
This means that during the courtship period and the first year of marriage (which most newly married couples usually spend together and not with friends) they should get to know each other and build their relationship. It does not mean that he should be in the bais medrash all day and she should be out working 12 hours a day to support him, and neither would have time to see each other let alone get to know their respective spouse.
Furthermore, they should start building their relationship once the dating gets serious and through the engagement period (since the dating “for the maximum of 6 weeks” certainly does not facilitate a relationship). This new idea that once the couple gets engaged they should only see each other once a week and talk only 3 times a week just hurts the marriage from the start. They are going to be living with each other, hopefully, FOR THE REST OF THEIR LIVES!! The faster they get to know each other now the better their marriage would be in the long run.
Guests over for meals and going out with friends is not the problem. It’s not having a marriage that is the problem.
MM:
Now you are just grasping at straws. I live in a community in NYC that is considered one of the more yeshivish places. Not one of my rabbeim, Roshei Yeshiva, or Rabbi’s from any of the shuls would even hesitate to invite people from the community over to their house for a shabbos meal.
He is inviting guests who are as religious as he is to his house and he goes to them because of kiruv???? (sarcasm)!
Jothar:
According to a study done in 2007 by the IACP (International Academy of Collaborative Professionals):
* Divorces often happen because people rarely discuss their expectations in detail prior to marriage, are less willing to work on their marriages afterwards, and would like quick solutions rather than having to resolve issues. People have gotten divorced for trivial reasons like snoring.
* People who come from divorced homes are more likely to get divorced than people who come from happily married households. Divorce seems less like a big deal if you have seen your parents go through with it.
* People who get married between the ages of 23-27 are more likely to stay together than people who get married in their teens.
YOUR posek. NOT mine.
And since my Rav invites over couples from around the neighborhood to his home for shabbos meals, I have my “halacha and how our Poskim interpret it” telling and showing me that it is acceptable and preferred to have guests over (whether they live ion the neighborhood or not, or they are my friends or not).
MM:
Sorry to write this, but you did NOT bring down any sources claiming that “Tnayim” have any halachic ramifications. You brought a story that shows that breaking an engagement causes a lot of embarrassment, and that maybe one should be put into cherein (which was argued by Wolfishmusings) but never did I see any place or halachic reference that you brought down that stated that “Tnayim” have ANY halachic ramifications.
MM:
Your right. Let me rephrase. LOGICALLY “inviting friends over for a shabbos meal might not be the best way to accomplish hachnosos orchim, but you still get the mitzvah.”
MM:
“99.999% of those who moved there in the last 50 years, did so due to BMG.”
That might have been true 15 years ago, or even ten years ago. But now (in the past decade) most couples go there because it is a thriving jewish community, much of that thanks to BMG (not arguing that it made the town in to a thriving jewish community). However, most families go there for the cheap housing, for the camaraderie of their friends that moved there. NOT because they want anything to do with BMG. BMG, might be the nucleus of the jewish town, but if you go 10 blocks away from BMG, then you will find a plethora of families that want nothing to do with BMG.
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MM and Gavra:
If i am not mistaken, the rema is talking about only those cases where hachnasos orchim is being use so one can be lenient on certain halachas in regards to shabbos (you might want to check the whole rema on the subject). Furthermore, the mishna berura adds to the rema that one can invite others that do not live outside the community into his house once he has ONE guest meeting the criteria.
Therefore, I have to assume that inviting friends over for a shabbos meal might not be the best way to accomplish hachnosos orchim, but you still get the mitzvah.
Jothar:
Actually I know of a lot of baal habatim that moved to lakewood for the cheap housing and the jewish community (which was there before BMG), not for BMG. Therefore, if you moved there for reasons other than to be a part of BMG, you have every right to “criticize the yeshiva for encouraging people to vote in a way that benefits it”.
MM:
Again, Tanayim as mentioned by everyone but YOU, have no hlalchic ramifications! Further, even if you do think that tanaim have halachic ramifications (I can be wrong, it won’t be the forst or last time) most litvish people do tanaims at the chupah. You are still reiterating your point throught views that are not held by many people.
Jothar:
You are basing all that you said on a “well-thought-out opinion of a rav”. Thats ONE rav and HIS opinion. He might have a lot of experience that does not mean that it is correct. Have you talked to any other rabbonim and found out there thoughts on this matter? Have you talked to marriage counselors? Therapists? It is very good that you are basing your opinion on someone who has experience in the field. But, personally, I rather have his thoughts corroborated by others.
Further, I still stand by my opinion, that couples have to learn to grow up and mature and stop blaming everyone and everything else. The internet and having other couples over as guests are just excuses and they are not the root of the problem.
And just to reiterate what Oomis said “Hachnossas orchim is a very huge mitzvah D’Oraisa.” I personally rather do a mitzvah D’Oraisa, then not do one becasuse of some rav who is being extra machmir.
Mrs. Beautiful:
“so how do you explain the fact that in the chasidishe world there are less divorces?”
This topic has been chewed up on other threads. Most people would retort back at you saying that “it is a bigger taboo to get divorced in the chassidishe community than it is outside said community”. Or they will say that “the chassidishe women are willing to take more abuse”, or “that the men are better at hiding it, for fear of getting kicked out of the communuty”, etc…..
The lack of divorces in the chassidishe world does not mean that they have healthy marriages (even with their strict guidelines). Couples who do get divorced outside the chassidishe community are doing it to have a better life, not because they like getting divorced.
You and Jothar (with his quotes) can blame divorces on having guests over or the internet, but in the end it comes down to the couple. President Truman used to have a sign on his desk “the buck stops here”. Meaning that, in the end, he takes responsibility of everything. My generation has got to learn to start taking responsibility instead of blaming every external factor that they can think of.
Oomis:
I’m with you on this one. The two parties should be mature enough to break it off by themselves.
If the strife is cause by third parties, and these individuals are truly right for each other, than one (or both) should get up and say something, show a little back bone (which in these days is probably non-existent regarding the engaged couple since they are usually 100% dependent on the parents, and will be for years).
Thinking about it, the shtar is kindof useless. Feelings do not go away because someone wrote something. Also, having a stigma on you because you won’t write this shatar is tantamount to blackmail, which as you said “is wrong in so many ways”.
Mrs. Beautiful:
“If the boy wanted to take the girl for coffee he shouldve asked someone to set him up as apposed to setting himself up “after a good coversation.””
And you don’t think that is wrong that one requires an intermediary nowadays?
This story is proof that one does not need a shadchan. That single boys and girls can meet in the actions of everyday life.
Don’t you think if one finds someones he/she likes they should “go for it” without any worries that some meddlesome third party is going to ruin their reputation?
I agree with oomis. The first time i ever heard of this shtar was when my friend broke off his engagement, and one of them needed to write this shtar. Never figured out why it was needed or how the process is worked out.
Regarding this shtar, since it is made to be mochel another, do you need it for a divorce as well? It only makes sense that you should, since according to most people (there are people who argue as noted in comments in this post and others)that divorce is worst than a broken engagement.
Do you need a shtar if you went out with a girl multiple times and it didn’t work out?
Oomis1105:
IMHO, I think the rabbonim made up this shtar because they saw that shidduchim engagements were unraveling and they wanted people to feel better afterward. I never heard of it and I’ve officially been dating for 3 years. And when my older siblings and their friends were dating (about 7 years ago)this concept of this shtar was unheard of (but then again so was some of the interesting things that occur through the shidduch process now also were unheard of then).
MM>
Actually its a machlokis and their are those that hold you can divorce at will (if she burns the food was the example given in the gemarah).
Also, these days, as noted in previous posts, the engagement as we call it, has absolutely no meeting in regards to halacha. All halachic components take place under the chupah. The engagements we have now are excuses to make parties, that’s all.
I think they should, as they are a huge entity in the lakewood area. The yeshiva for itself, should look out for its best interests.
However, that does not mean that bochurim attending BMG, nor the kollel couples affiliated with BMG, nor the families in and around lakewood should be held to what the yeshiva wants. Everyone is capable and should make their own decisions based on what they perceive is best for them (as seen in this past gubernatorial election).
AZ:
If you read my answer to point “B” then you would have seen “interviews, etc…”. But even so, maybe one should d o a study and find out when the average “right wing” graduate (or almost graduate) starts to date.
In regards to your world, I do not know which one you and the rabbonim live in, in which you state “The present situation with many many girls having no shot to get married” i believe is erroneous. If the girls want to get married then they would “have a shot” at doing so. Perhaps the system they are using is flawed?
You wrote “I’m just curious why it seems that so many more girls seem to get the “short end” than the boys.” I believe that it is boys and girls get the “short end” equally. However, the boys do not make as much of a big deal of it as the girls. I believe, and from what I hear from my sisters and my friends, is that girls plan their whole single life to get married, they dress up and play “marriage when they are younger, etc… While boys do not think of marriage until their teenage years at minimum.
And finally, “In summation: you write “I truly do believe that their is enough boys for girls, and vice versa.”. you are WRONG, no two ways about it. This isn’t about beliefs- it’s about reality. “
Please bring proof that there are more girls than boys. According to the U.S. census there are actually 51 girls to 49 boys. This should apply to all classes and ethnicities. Which, therefore, proves my point.
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gavra_at_work:
There is also a gemarah that states that you are required to teach your child a trade.
AZ:
Without hard numbers (and I mean census data, studies, interviews, etc….)I agree and hope that the population is growing. So I personally agree with point “A”.
Again, without hard numbers (and I mean census data, studies, interviews, etc….)I do not agree entirely with statement “B”. I find that some girls date right out of high school/seminary (I know of some cases when the girl got engaged during 12th grade (not chasidish). But, I also know of girls that are mature and decide that they want to set themselves up, either financially or emotionally, before they start dating, and they wait. (Both examples I gave the girls come from “yeshivish” families and communities.
Same goes for boys. I had a number of guys in my 12th grade class that got married within the first year after high school (I believe the number was 7 out 45). Six years later, I would have to say that about 80% of my grade is married (ballpark figure, I do not have my yearbook in front of me). I went to a very Yeshivish school as well.
To answer point “C”; I disagree that it “equals a HUGE problem.” I don’t believe that their is a problem. I am not saying that girls and boys are getting married “left and right”. However, I believe that is because the individuals in the “parsha” got the “short end of the stick” when it comes to a shidduch system that does not work.
If the boys and girls truly want to get married they would do so on their own without relying on others. I truly do believe that their is enough boys for girls, and vice versa.
There is a famous quote: “If you want something done right, do it yourself”.
cholentkugelkishke:
You wrote:”Just for the record – I think the Rabbonim were given facts – numbers, etc. and based the Kol Korei on that. It’s a pretty simple cheshbon if you look at the numbers……….”
The following is my reply (none of these are my words, but words of statisticians and people throughout time):
“There are three kinds of lies: lies, d**ned lies, and statistics.”
Benjamin Disraeli (1804 – 1881)
“Statistician: A man who believes figures don’t lie, but admits that under analysis some of them won’t stand up either.”
“Statistics: The only science that enables different experts using the same figures to draw different conclusions.”
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Ben Melech:
I wasn’t thinking that the husband should work, that is blasphemy in this day and age.
Since the father/husband is learning, why can’t he take out an hour or so every day and get the kids off to school/pick them up. And do a majority of the chores around the house.
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