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apushatayid:
“The cycle has to be broken somewhere, why not with monetary carrot dangled in front of shadchanim”
Einstein once said “Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.”
Using more money as an incentive isn’t breaking the cycle, just adds a larger monetary reward to a cycle which is broken. How about changing the actual process.
Since everyone is claiming that older girls are harder to get married, how about after a certain age the girls and guys bypass the shadchanim and try to meet on their own accord (through friends and family or just meeting a nice guy on the street) and going out that way.
Personally, I prefer to meet a girl on my own instead of through a shadchan, less “broken telephone” that way. Plus, there are no intrusions by shadchanim, who want to do the right thing, but come over as pushy and inconsiderate.
zahavasdad:
“Just like one cannot be more lenient than the community one cannot be more strict than the community.”
Please show me were it says this?? I can choose to be stricter or more lenient than anyone else in my community as long as I have a Rav who paskens for me (I usually use this book (sefer) called the Mishnah Berurah as my halachic guideline).
And again, you are mistaken, the Rabbi you are talking about does not charge anyone to be on his recommendation list. I know this from personal experience.
This Rabbi did have his own hashgacha at one point (I think I heard a rumor that he stopped giving it out but I never verified the rumor) that he used to use outside the Far Rockaway/5 towns area, in which he probably did charge money. However, if an establishment is under the 5 towns Vaad, and the establishment abides by his rules, he will add them to his recommended list without charging a penny.
zahavasdad:
“However there is a Rabbi in Far Rockaway who refuses to abide by the rules set by the community standards (Which one is required to follow) and makes “His own list” that he charges the restaurants to be on. “
You are partially mistaken. This one Rabbi DOES have his own informal list, however he does not charge the establishments extra to be on that list. He has certain guidelines that he requires (only shomer shabbas owner, fully cholov yisroel and pas yisroel, to name a few).
Another point, he does not say that those establishments that do not abide to his standards are “not kosher” but rather that they are “not recommended” to be eaten in. And if you are required (due to a family simcha or something else) to eat in one of those establishments he will tell you what he recommends you can eat there.
As a side point, this Rabbi is not part of the Five Towns Vaad.
Chein:
If you look in the Shulchan Aruch, there is no requirement to wear tzitzis unless one is wearing a four cornered garment. However, the shulchan aruch goes on to explain that since it is a minhag Yisroel to wear tzitzis all the time, one should (but again, one is NOT obligated to wear tzitzis unless he is wearing a four cornered garment).
DY:
“There’s no reason that it can’t be both.”
I am not saying that it can’t be both, I was just acknowledging that OC considers it a business and was not doing it for the virtue of the mitzvah.
IMHO though, I think that doing a mitzvah for the money is, as people say, “not in the spirit” of the mitzvah (not that you won’t get a mitzvah).
OfCourse:
As a side point, since you wrote “I recently made a Shidduch with a BT and they gave me a K’aroh for Pesach that I believe costed them about a hundred dollars and I was thrilled with it.” Then from your own admittance in saying this one can infer that you will be happy with about $100, since that was the rate you charged for this shidduch.
And to answer your question “and there just arent enough Shadchanim who are willing to do it for free. Are you willing to start?” The answer is OF COURSE. But I don’t match up strangers. I match up friends, people I know. I am extremely happy when my friends get married and I would not dream in a thousand years of ever demanding a cent from them for THEIR happiness! I think that is rude and ungrateful.
DY and OC:
Please look at Reb Akiva Eiger C.M. 185; Pischei Teshuvah E.H. 50:16– rejecting the mistaken notion that a shadchan must always be paid.
And OC:
Please see Erech Shai C.M. 185 (to summarize – If the parents fail to pay, there is no obligation for the bride and groom to pay the shadchan).
Furthermore, as you said “Also, it’s the money too, many hours are involved,”, you are considering it a business and not as a mitzvah. Then I am not arguing that you aren’t owed money. I am just saying you are going to have a hard time collecting since you didn’t make any agreements before hand.
To Of Course (and everyone else):
IMHO, It comes down to whether you think being a shadchan is a business or you are doing it for the mitzvah and to make two people happy.
If you did it for the mitzvah and to make to people happy, then you should not be harping on the money. The couple, plus their parents, should have at least professed their gratitude, and given you a token (whatever it may be, even money) to show their appreciation. However, since you ARE harping on the money, I am assuming you meant to actually make money for your time and effort.
If you are doing it as a business (even as a money making hobby), then I agree with Wolf that you should have at least specified your intentions orally in the beginning (written would have beem a lot better). Since it seems you did not, then the burden of proof should be upon you to prove that you meant it as a money making opportunity and not gratis.
On a personal side note, after reading all these posts about wanting and demanding money (in as much as considering stalking the chosson and kallah during their sheva berachos on facebook!) for what I consider a huge mitzvah, I am very glad I decided to not deal with shadchanim for my dating life.
I wouldn’t make a big deal out of it. Sometimes people get burned in their dealings in life. The Chosson and Kallah should have included you in their life, especially since you were such a big part of it. However, if they didn’t want to include you (as seems the case) then my advice is not to bring up the matter again. You have not lost anything monetarily, only time and effort. All I can say is learn whatever you want from this experience and move on.
Ask her out on a second date
gavra_at_work:
“Which has nothing to do with Kollel, and everything to do with Tuition, simcha costs, and the need to keep up with the Cohens’.”
Actually, you have brought up one point. Tuition prices are higher due to kollel, and others, who are unable to afford tuition. Therefore, others who can afford it, are footing the bill for the others who can’t.
But your other points are all valid.
AZ are you out there? There are two singles fighting the “shidduch crisis”! Come on out and encourage them.
adorable:
Who says that this is not the way that Hashem is sending her his way? When did using a shadchan all of a sudden become the one acceptable way to get set up?
Grandmaster:
Actually you are expounding your own views, just as Wolf is. Since there is no single spokesperson for the Jewish community as a whole, I do not see how you can be sharing the views of everyone who is part of the Jewish community.
Personally, I agree with Wolf.
IMHO its not that we do not want to get married, rather it is that single individuals don’t want to play the game to get married (and this applies to the men and women, however women are more willing to play the games).
When I say “games” I mean the shidduch game (having to deal with demeaning shadchanim and superfluous singles, single events that are do not accomplish anything besides getting girls and boys into a room where they are not allowed to speak to each other without tacit approval from, again, a shadchan, not allowed to go someplace fun on dates, but rather a boring lounge, and many other examples).
If all the married people would just take a second and look back at the process these days in which a person has to go through to get a date, let alone get married (having to deal with what gifts to give, who will support the newly married couple, vorts, wedding planning, etc…) it should make them wonder why anyone would want to go through the process in the first place.
gavra_at_work:
I tend to disagree with asking grandparents for money. Once the child is grown up and has his/her own family they are responsible for their own family. If the grandparent want to help out, either with paying tuition or taking the family on vacation, then that is the grandparents will and the tuition committee should not chase after them asking for money. Except for pure donations.
If you want to reject the tuition assistance since the Father/Mother of the child have no fiscal responsibility (i.e. have a seven figure home but have no idea on how to create an income to support such a lifestyle) then I agree. But if you are rejecting the family due to the fact they were born rich and have generous parents, even though they themselves are poor, I think is just plain wrong.
I agree with the sentiment regarding the parents and the seven figure house
SJSinNYC:
So where does it stop? What happens if the great-grandparents want to take the family on a vacation? A rich uncle? Is that allowed? Or do we say that the family should forgo the vacation on principle? Don’t forget that benefactors in question might not offer to pay the tuition instead.
I guess the question I am asking is where do we draw the line? If a complete stranger hands over tickets to someone taking tuition assistance does the person need to reject the gift out of principle?
Also, can you please show me the source where it says that the grandparents are obligated to teach their grandsons Torah?
So now the question is, what happens if the family is being supported by outside sources. Outside sources mean anyone besides the parents of the child in question. Does that count towards what is considered “income”?
If someone wants to give a gift to their children and take them away for a few days of vacation, should that be counted against a family’s tuition break? What happens if it is someone totally unaffiliated with the family? Where do you draw the line?
If a person legitimately needs to go on food stamps, for whatever reason (whether in Kollel or out of a job), then they should partake in this government program. However, it should be used as a temporary help and not permanent.
The gemarah in Baba Basra (110a-b):
“…. According to the Gemara, Yehonatan answers that he has a family tradition that a person should sooner hire himself out to for idol worship (avodah zara) than accept charity from others. The Gemara comments that this maxim was misunderstood by Yehonatan, for its true intent was that a person should accept work that is not what he ordinarily does (avodah she-zara lo) rather than accept charity. To support this interpretation, the Gemara relates something that Rav once said to Rav Kahane – you should be willing to skin animals in the marketplace and get paid, and you should not say that it is below the dignity of an important person such as yourself”
I do believe that the gemarah is self explanatory and nothing else needs to be said.
MDD:
“Oomis, the standards do not go by what people think or do.”
Actually, the standards DO go by what people think or do, or at least think. Look throughout the ages (and i am not just limiting the time to 50 years ago), you will see the standards of dress change throughout the generations, and therefore the standards of Tznius as well.
2,000 years ago, men wore robes and noone (men or women) wore any underwear. Do you think that these standards will work today? Would a man or women walk down the street only clad in a robe and nothing else? I don’t think so.
The way people have dressed has changed over the millenia, and therefore, our thoughts of Tznius have changed as well.
Ofcourse:
“2-What if 75% of the existing Shadchanim (who have bills to pay) were to stop being Shadchanim, what would you recommend then to encourage more people to be involved as Shadchanim? “
NOTHING! I would encourage the single men and women to socialize among themselves.
Everyone keeps complaining that shadchanim are overworked, or the system doesn’t work. And they are all 100% correct. The shadchanim ARE overworked and the system sucks!
I am not advocating going to co-ed parties, that is more for the MO groups and not the people who use shadchanim. However, I am saying that the single men and women should not be relying on others to help them. There is an old saying “if you want something done right do it yourself”.
Singles should get together and network themselves instead of having to go through complete strangers who don’t have any stake in the process, only good intentions.
I know of more individuals who were successfully set-up by friends (eventually got married) and not by shadchanim.
bombmaniac:
From the ou website:
How is a microwave oven kashered to change the dairy or meat status, or to kasher from non-kosher use? A microwave can be kashered by placing a bowl of water in the oven. The oven is filled with steam by operating the microwave at the highest setting for approximately ten minutes. The bowl is refilled and moved to anotherlocation, and the above procedure is repeated in order to kasher the area where the bowl previously rested. If there is a glass plate on the oven floor, it is preferable to cover or change the plate since it is questionable how the halacha views glass. If the oven surface is plastic there are different opinions whether kashering is effective, but in case of necessity many poskim follow the lenient view. Kashering between meat and dairy can be done immediately after the previous use, while kashering a non-kosher oven requires a 24-hour downtime. In all instances, kashering must be preceded by a thorough cleanup. As is true of a conventional oven, kashering can be bypassed (even for a non-kosher microwave) by double wrapping the food.”
Cherrybim:
Have a little respect and call him Rabbi Haskel. No one likes it when someone would say (Rabbi) Moshe Feinstein without the title. I am not saying that R’ Haskel is in the same league as R’ Moshe, but he is definitely deserving of your, mine, and others respect unless you know definitively otherwise.
Friday night:
BBQ
Saturday Lunch:
Cholent, meat (roast or such), leftovers from the Friday night BBQ
How can a girl even have time to go bowling, with all the chessed she is supposed to be doing. Those that are even thinking of going out bowling must have to much time on their hands and therefore sit down with a Tehillim to beg forgiveness for such idle thoughts.
Besides, once girls are let out to bowl, the next thing you know, they will want to drive , or chas v’shalom, ride a bike there. And they will just brink down the entire morality of the generation.
(tongue in cheek)
Ben Torah:
I’d think that the son of Rav Yaakov Kamenetsky is more reliable in knowing what his father, and his contemporaries, did read (which he has references as well) than a number of Rabbonim who banned the book without actually reading it (all but one Rav, Rabbi Chaim Pinchas Scheinberg, who banned the book were/are unable to read english).
apushatayid:
Just to clarify, there is a difference between what is expected when one is davening and what is actual halacha.
The Shulchan Aruch (O.C. 91:2) requires that there be a physical divide between the heart and the erva during prayer. That’s it. Nothing more. So theoretically, one can walk in wearing not much else.
If you want to be machmir and want to wear clothes (let alone pants, dress shirts, suits, ties, etc…) than that is perfectly acceptable. I personally wear what I wear to work (which is usually a dress shirt, pants, and a blazer).
Oomis:
Maybe we should change the language in the Kesubah to reflect the new status in our culture that a girl should be required to support the boy. (Sarcasm)
I’m getting in line behind SJSinNYC and the Wolf.
When I get married I plan on having mixed seating and separate dancing, just like my parents did (which, btw, all of my father’s rabbeim attended (there are pictures) and the leading Rabbi’s of the community).
I am with Wolf on this one. I have never seen any Rebbi or Rav kick someone out of davening, whether it be in a Yeshiva or a shul, if they weren’t wearing a hat and/or jacket.
Also, in my personal experience, whenever I daven Mincha in midtown Manhattan, were you have professionals of all makes and models, wearing suits of upwards of thousands of dollars, who meet distinguished individuals (secular and religious) on a daily basis, they never wear a hat. They were suits because that is their daily dress, but hats are officially out of style (even for showing respect).
I know that this is not a Rav and I am not going against R’ Chaim in the slightest, in a book I read entitled “A Gentelman Gets Dressed Up” written by Bryan Curtis (which I have found changed my everyday dress habits for the better) it states that in nowadays wearing a hat is actually taboo indoors (except if one is attending a jewish ceremony were one is expected to wear a Yarmulke).
I am just mentioning that society has changed from wearing a hat as being respectful to it being considered out of date and would not be used to greet anyone, especially Royalty and High government officials (and, as one stated, judge).
hereorthere:
Look throughout the the talmud, I am not in front of one so I can’t give you an example off hand.
Also, when you have two Rabbis who come to different rulings on the same topic, who do you listen to (i.e. B’ Shamai and B’ Hillel) or any “Rabbi” in our times. Almost never do you find nowadays a halacha that is endorsed entirely across the board (in other words it isn’t “black and white” but gray).
There is no way that halacha is “black and white”. It is gray. Which is why it can be applied to all sorts of circumstances. If halacha was black and white, then we would never have any disputes (see example above, who have disputed throughout the entire Talmud). If ha;acha was simple “black and white” we would have a simple book (no bigger than 613 chapters) stating “THESE ARE THE RULES”. Even the shulchan aruch has its own disputes within it, with commentaries on it that dispute with each other.
hereorthere:
I do believe that you are mistaken. The world, including the Torah world, is made up of MOSTLY gray areas with very little defined “black” and “white”.
Throughout Tenach, there are plethora of examplees where it is mutar to do something that would be considered to be “wrong”. And the Rabbonim all ponder these actions and must come to decisions. There are very little black and white areas that are completely wrong.
a nony mus:
ENCORE!! ENCORE!!
I agree 100%.
A Bloody Mary (tomato juice, Tabasco sauce, ground black pepper, and a shot of vodka).
It is scientifically proven that the best remedy for a hangover is to drink a little alcohol the next morning. It thins the blood we will relieve the headache and nausea. After drinking, drink water to rehydrate yourself (a by product of drinking is that you dehydrate yourself). You should try to drink water while you drink the night before, so that you won’t be dehydrated the next morning.
aries2756:
“usually we are not talking to the kids, we are talking to the parents!!!!”
Two points:
1) Shouldn’t the singles be involved? It is THEIR life after all, not the parents. Which then leads me right back to my previous post (about the maturity and hand-holding of the singles by their parents).
2) If the parents can’t take the someone rejecting their kid for a date (without the kids even knowing about it) do you really think a pamphlet is the answer? I think that there is a larger underlying problem which pamphlets and guides will definitely not help.
On a side note, I totally agree with you in regards to your response to AZ regarding being paid only after the deed (marriage) is done.
aries2756:
A pamphlet on how to take rejection????? What else are we gonna do for my generation, have a robot that will literally spoon feed them??? A rejection is a sign of maturity on both sides. The boy/girl rejecting is showing her independence (if it truly is the single doing the rejection and not the parent) and the one getting the rejection is learning from a lesson in life that the world is not full of roses.
We might want to tell the singles that they will get rejected but hearing a “No” answer to a date is part of the dating life and experience.
Stop sheltering these singles! They will eventually have to grow up and mature and this will be one of the many rejections in life (dating, jobs, opportunities, etc.) that will come their way.
If they can’t handle a rejection than how do we expect them to handle other disappointments and hard decisions after they get married?
Lomed Mkol Adam:
For all the 30+ years who “rotting away alone in rented basements in Brooklyn, without any social network, who have already given up calling shadchanim.” there are the same amount of boys who are eshiva with no network, who have given up on shadchanim as well. Most guys don’t resolve to hysterics though.
Also, as you mentioned “without any social network”. So it is their problem that they can’t figure out how to do something for themselves and they are relying on others, who seem to be incompetent in the shadchan area (shadchanim).
The problem is not the age gap but the lack of singles who are capable of doing something on their own and are relying on others for everything. Tell those 30 year-olds to mature and do something for themselves.
AZ:
The PRIMARY reason for the shidduch crisis is the age gap??????
If you ask the singles (the one effected by this flawed process) most would not have the age gap theory within the top ten reasons the system is flawed.
As I have said in previous posts regarding shidduchum in response to the age gap theory, I think it is flawed inaccurate, and superfluous to the shidduch problem. The age gap was caused because of the flawed shidduch system, not the cause of it!
AZ:
” I can’t gurantte that they will take counsel with you prior to making the decsion. What people should realize is when we deal with serious and devastating issues we need to make hard choices.”
Two points:
1) People should and will make hard choices in life, that is a fact. However, I believe that people should make it for themselves and not have other people (the rabbonim) do it for them.
2) You mentioned that the rabbanim should take counsel. I agree with you 100%. However, I do not believe that they are taking counsel from the right individuals (and since you have the ears of the rabbonim, perhaps you can pass this along). Instead of asking and being provided counsel from shadchanim and married couples (individuals who are at least one step away from the so called “crisis”), the rabbanim should go straight to the source; ask the single guys and ladies what they think is wrong with the system. Find the aspects in which a majority of the singles agree upon, and then FIX IT.
I have never been asked by a rav (and that includes all 70 that signed the age gap letter) what I think is wrong with the system, and neither have any of my hundreds of single friends and acquaintances (believe me, you get to meet a lot of singles throughout all the events and not a one has ever mentioned being asked what they think is wrong with the shidduch system or what they would change).
Instead of trying to do studies (that can be skewed and countered in a variety of ways) they should go out to the various cities and document from the singles themselves. You will get a better understanding of what is wrong and a plethora of ideas on how to fix a broken system.
youdontknowme:
True. College is not for everyone. But working should be (even small odd jobs, especially for teenagers). It will provide a sense of responsibility.
However, if parents learn to say “NO” to the frivolous items that all teenagers and young adults want (i do not man a roof over the childs head and food on the table), then the children will need to work. When I finished High School my weekly breakfast money was taken away ($5 a week) and I went and found a job for a few hours a week that gave me extra spending money to do with as I pleased. It gave me a sense of responsibility and an understanding of how to budget my funds (plus the value of a dollar).
I’ve been working for 3 years now, with no debt, a blossoming 401k fund (I maxed it out every year, great tax planning), my own car, and my own apartment. This, without any help from my parents, besides paying some of my college tuition (which I’m grateful for and thank them all the time). I believe I was able to do all this by maturing, and gaining a responsibility, during my late teen-age years.
I believe that most young adults, and married kollel couples, do not understand what a budget is and the true value of a dollar. They, instead, are handed everything. This, IMO, breeds a lack of maturity.
AZ, Hello, Oomis:
How about the guys starting to go to college and get jobs (and date) right out of High school instead of learning for a few years or being told that work and college are not for proper yeshiva guys.
Guys can still learn part of the day (college does not take up the entire day, especially those geared towards the frum community). This will alleviate AZ’s problem, that the males are dating at age when they are much older than the girls.
It will also alleviate the problems that everyone else is thinking, that the boys are immature or do not have a plan in place once they get married (start dating). Usually working forces a person to mature and deal with people on a constant basis.
anuran:
Well said. I agree with the approach, and your explanation.
Oomis:
A lot of the amateur shadchanim are not working people but kollel couples (whether they are just married or 40+ years old). They have the time on their hands to do shadchanis and to spend enormous amount of hours on it. However, a lot of them have never worked in a professional environment and do not understand that one gets paid when he or she shows results, not just for effort.
I have not read the comments on this post (kind of busy at work).
I have actual experience in this topic. I dated a girl for a few weeks and then we decided to end it for whatever reasons we had. About two months later, after talking it over with mutual friends and my mentor, we decided to get back together. It still did not work out, but we are friends now and there is no animosity.
(Some of) The advice that I was given when I decided to date this girl again was that I can’t just date her for one or two dates. We had to go out for a couple of weeks, to really make sure that we are for each other or not (even if we had new issues with each other we should discuss them with each other and work them out if possible, not to keep them “bottled up”). This would then preclude us from having to go through the whole scenario again. Also, it was advised to us that whatever problems we had with each other the first time around we had better make sure that it was resolved or else it will be fruitless to go out again.
I would pass this advice onto whoever decides to go out with a girl/boy they have already dated.
Personally, if both the girl and boy want to go out with each other again after they broke it off once, they should. But make sure that whatever issues were on the table the first time around are resolved, or else you will just be going through the motions again.
AZ:
The shidduch problem is not the concept of getting more shadchanim to be involved. Its the concept of having shadchanim involved!
The ideal process should be that the shadchan knows both individuals, does not have to do background search, and gives the boy the girls number. This concept of a shadchan meeting with a boy/girl for 5 minutes (or up to 15 minutes) and then ordering an FBI background check on them is what’s wrong. No matter how much money one throws at people the process still WILL NOT WORK.
This concept was discussed in a different post and this was my response to paying a shadchan a fee:
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/shadchanus-how-much/page/3#post-106478
Should a principal enforce the rules in his school, YES! Definitely 100%. However, should he go around asking bochurim to empty their pockets and/or bags to search their belongings for cellphones, then definitely NO! It is embarrassing, counterproductive to a high school mentality (most teenagers would feel that they are being picked on and will be embarrassed if it is done in a public area), and it is 100% ILLEGAL to do in the U.S.A. It is a violation of ones personal rights.
If the boy is openly using in the school then the Principal, abiding by the rules of the school, should confiscate it and return it at the end of the day or send it back to the parents. However, the principal should not actively search for them when they are put away. And the school should not have enact rules where it is illegal or extremely hard to enforce.
BP Totty amd Oomis 1105:
Thanks!
YDKM:
At the age of 25, as the others said, one should be mature enough to go through awkward situations. I am younger than 25 and I have gone through these moments. Some times the girl comes out and says no and some time the girl just does not return my phone calls.
It is kind of sad that my generation is incapable of doing stuff on their own from start to finish, no matter how awkward it may seem. (Or in the case of this thread, even being able to make a decision that will hopefully affect that person for the rest of their life.)
However, a person should do whatever works for them, even if it seems like a crutch to others.
IMO:
I think 25+ year old singles should not deal with shadchanim at all. At that age they should be mature enough to approach a girl/boy on their own without having to go through a third party.
Welcome to the stupidity of what matchmaking has become. Now you know why the shidduch process does not work, and will never work (on a large scale) if we keep heading down this path.
Haros:
IMO: If you are really close to either the bride or groom (the party you believe is being misled) then you should approach them directly. If you aren’t then you should approach a good friend or relative that is really close to that person, who WILL approach that person and inform him/her as such (and not use it maliciously).
As you said “if the other party knows about it and still accepts than that is fine, but i feel its my duty in case they don’t know to make sure they do the appropriate research.”
Definitely do not be anonymous. Anonymity is useless because people dismiss whatever is being said as heresy or rumors and won’t add any value to it.