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I think that we just pasken like the Gra by Shavous and by other logical religious custom we go with the Rema.
Listen, the point is that according to the Maharsha”m (who is explaining why the Rema holds muttar, I think) there is no issue of chukas hagoyim by a religious logical custom. We pasken like the Gra regarding Shavous, if you want to say we pasken like him whenever we have this type of scenario of religious logical customs I do not know if that is true.
DaasYochid- I saw the Gra in the ????? ??? you told me to check. It says there that according to the Rema it is not a problem because it is a logical custom so it cannot be chukas hagoy. I think it proves my point that logical customs cannot be come chukas hagoy.
DaasYochid- The Gra’shita of chukas hagoy is not the halachikly accepted one except in regard to Shavous, I think.
Turkey soup 🙂
Thank you for the tip
The Gra rejects the Ran and Maharit’s pshat because the Gemara does not seem to fit in with their understanding of what the parameters of chukas hagoy is. (The Maharam Shick does resolve these diffuculties, though, See Shu”t YD 165) The Seriedei Aish 3:93 (new editions-YD 39 Anaf 2) writes that the shita of the Gra is in contrast with the rest of the Rishonim. We do not pasken like the Gra’s pshat of chukas hagoy.
Is celebrating Xmis chukas hagoy? Just kidding
Daas Yochid- The Gra’s understanding of chukas hagoyim is not the normative halacha but a stringecy. See Gra YD 178:7. I understand I’m streching Rav Moshe’s psak a little but there can be room for such a strech possibly.
Little Froggie, I was practicing for your new law of recycling old threads:
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/do-not-create-new-threads
Hopefully this year Moshiach will come and it will be a happy day
Now the countdown till the ball will drop will be a countdown to a very sad day for Klal Yisroel
Nice Dvar Torah
DY- I still think that a logical custom cannot be hijacked to be chukas hagoyim. As per IM YD 4:11:3 pleasurable customs can’t be hijacked. It is different then taking off a yarmulke in shul because that is an illogical custom. If the church came out with a delicious, nutritious candy bar and made a religious law to eat it, would we be doing chukas akum if we decide to eat it because it tastes good? We got the idea of such a candy bar from them but it is something good in it of itself. Same thing with chanuka presents.
Interesting that Jan 1st falls out on Asereh Bteves this year.
Is celebrating the secular new year chukas hagoyim? Start the discussion
I heard that Rav Shmuel Berenbaum tz”l used to say that on all other days of Chanuka the bochrim go home early to light but on the last day they stay the entire second seder to learn. “Ah, Zos Chanuka” (This is Chanuka, learning the whole second seder.)
DaasYochid- It is not clear from the Rema whether a logical custom is prohibited if it has a ??? ????? ?????? from the ancestors. According to Maharit we are only concerned about us trying to be like the goyim. So if we copy their illogical customs without benefit to ourselves it can be assur. Though, I do admit that the Rema seems to lean more on to the Ran’s reasoning why illogical customs are prohibited-??? ????? ?????? from ancestors. It is not clear though that when we have logical customs we have to start looking into their history to see if it has pagan roots.
DY see IM YD 4:11:3 where Rav Moshe tz”l writes that we can’t prohibit every item of pleasure in the world just because goyim decide to do it religiousy.
Even if it religious (I highly doubt it), it would probably not be chukas hagoy. It is a logical custom
Goldilocks-you are correct that there is a time and a place for giving advice but when someone is going to have to redo his entire shemona esrei because he forgot yalleh vyavo and the only way to make sure it doesn’t happen is to say it out loud, it is the correct time to do it. As I said before you shouldn’t scream it, just say it out loud instead of silently.
I think the order of posts got messed up but I was replying to what you wrote above about why gifts have religious significance above what you wrote.
Are you referring to the fact that they say that Santa Claus brings the gifts? Everyone knows it’s a myth besides young kids and that the parents bring it out. It is used to enhance the holiday. It is not a religious item. In fact, very religious Christians will not use gifts because it commercializes the holiday.
I think halachikly it’s not proper to say out loud things that are not meacav the shemona esrei (like yaaleh veyavo, rosh chodesh, maariv). But for things that are meacav (Vesien tal umatar) you are saving people from having to repeat the entire shemonei esrei so you should say it out loud but don’t scream it
Daas Yochid- How can it be ???? ???”??
First of all the qoute from Rav Shimon Schwab tz”l by Lior says that they are not halachikly assur, just not in the spirit of the Torah.
Also, when the Rema writes “??? ????? ??????” he is talking about things that have no logical reason so we are scared that they have a smell of Avodah Zarah from their ancestors. Gifts are not avodah zarah in it of itself like a christmas tree. They are used to make the holiday more enjoyable. You understand yourself that giving a gift is a nice thing to do on a special occasion. A christmas tree doesn’t make any sense and it is a pagan symbol.
star1135, I would still ask an Orthodox Rabbi about the kashrut of Tomer’s meat. It may very well be kosher, just non-glatt. May G-d bless you.
You can just say it usually falls out on Chaukah and then continue your speech.
Let me just clarify so you don’t get confused:
Most Stringent to Least Stringent:
Beis Yosef Glatt- required for Sephardim; NO ADHENSIONS IN THE LUNG AT ALL
Ashkenazic Glatt-stringecy for Ashkenazim; There are up to two easily removable adhensions (called “rir”)
Non-glatt–only for Ashkenazim; Some adhensions that are tested to see if they are problematic
Glatt is the yiddish word for smooth. In Hebrew it’s chalak. In the Torah (Exodus 22;30) it says “You shall not eat meat from an animal torn (ie trefa) in the field”. Certain types of defects render an animal torn(trefa). The Shulchan Aruch (main codifer of Jewish law) lists the defects that make an animal a trefa. After an animal is shected (the term for the correct and complex way of killing an animal in Jewish law) they check the lungs to see if there is a puncture in them. If they see an adhension then it could possibly be kosher or possibly not. The Shulchan Aruch discusses these type of adhensions and most come out to be a problem and make the animal non-kosher (trefa) The Rema (Rav Moshe Isserlis, the commentary on the Shulchan Aruch which comments when Ashkenazic tradition differs from Sephardic [The Shulchan Aruch codifies the halacha with Sephardic tradion]) discusses different tests that can be done to lung adhensions to determine if they are kosher,accordingly making more animals kosher.
The Sephardim who follow the Shulchan Aruch eat only glatt meat that is termed glatt Beit Yosef. There is an Ashkenazic tradition that when there is very small adhensions (up to two) that can easily be removed it is rendered glatt according to Ashkenazim. Glatt meat is where the lungs are very smooth so there are very little adhensions. Beit Yosef glatt is even stricter then that as stated previously. When it says glatt it usually means the Ashkenazic defention of glatt. Glatt is a common stringecy that many people follow. That does not mean non-glatt is non-kosher. It is completely good for Ashkenazim (I’m not an expert on this so please speak to a Orthodox Rabbi on more about glatt, I’m just giving the general backround.)
Even if Thanksgiving itself is problematic, most customs of it are secular, I think. Turkey was a popular food then, native in America. Football is secular. Macy’s Thanksgiving Parade is secular (except Santa). Now the things that may be religious could be the meal. Most say grace. Thanksgiving is not so religious but it does have a religious theme.
YES, Hakaras Hatov is very Jewish.
I heard that if Jews and goyim start a custom together it can’t be chukas hagoy. Does anybody have a source for that?
I’ll tell you what really is assur.( I DO NOT HAVE ONE) A chanuka bush.
Maybe Rav Shimon Schwab tz”l would concur that when it is being used to gladden sick children it is good.
I wonder that even if Thanksgiving itself is permitted is Macy’s Thanksgiving Day Parade forbidden? It originally started out as an Xmis parade. Probably not, though.
Let me quote Rav Moshe Isserlis on Chukas Hagoy:
???: ??? ??? ?????
??? ???????? ????? ????? (??) ??? ?? ???? ???? ??? ???? ????? ?? ?????? ?????? ??? ?????? ???? ????? ????? ??????? ?????? ???? ????? ???? ?????? ??? ??????? ??????? ?? ???? ????? ????? ????? ???? ??? ???? ????? ????? ??? ???? ???? ?????? ???? ?? ??? ????? ?????? ???????? ??? ??? ????? ?????? ???? ????? ??? ?? ???? ???? ????? ?? ?? ????? ????? ????? ?? ???? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ??? ?????? ???? ???? ?? ??? ??? ???? (?????? ???? ???) ??? ???? ?????? ?? ?????? ???? ?? ???? ???? ?????? (??? ??? ?????? ??????):
(???? ?)
Lior you have the Rema in front of you. Show us your reading of it.
Interesting is that Governor John W. Geary of Pennsylvania, in 1868, had his own Thanksgiving proclomation. In it, it was written:
“our paths through life may be directed by the example and instructions of the Redeemer and “Let us thank Him with Christian humility for health and prosperity”
The Jews in Pennsylvania were upset and wrote against it.
In The Occident,a jewish newspaper, they wrote that Geary “apparently intended to exclude Israelites” . Geary did not retract. Maybe it was sort of Christian.
Supporting Jewish celebration of Thanksgiving doesn’t make you a patriot, and opposing it doesn’t make you less of a patriot. There’s a halachic issue here which patriotic Americans like me are concerned about. Thanksgiving – though as American as apple pie – IS a church holiday.
Explain why it is a Church Holiday. What is your defenition of a church holiday? This holiday was started by an American president to give thanks.
Though if you look at the writings of Sarah Josepha Hale (aka the godmother of thanksgiving) it does seem pretty Christian:
Let me qoute:
“THE FOURTH OF JULY is the exponent of independence and civil
freedom. THANKSGIVING DAY is the national pledge of Christian faith..”
That sounds Christian but look at this quote:
“All sects and creeds who take the Bible as their rule of
faith and morals could unite in such a festival. The Jews, also, who find the direct command
for a feast at the ingathering of harvest, would gladly join in this Thanksgiving”
Explicit includence for Jews. Seems pretty interesting.
“To set apart and observe the last Thursday of November next, as a day of Thanksgiving and Praise to our beneficent Father who dwelleth in the Heavens. . .”
What does designating a special day to thank their god sound like to you?
from QuestionForYou
But the problem with that is that Lincoln said the holiday should be for all americans. Not all americans were christians, some were jewish. Therefore it is not for any specific religion.
Rabbi Yaakov Shapiro shlit”a writes that Rav Moshe tz”l was possibly misinformed about the origins of the holiday. Search “beis medrash of bayswater thanksgiving”
Rabbi Yehoshua Pfeffer shlit”a was asked a similar question and responded it was not a problem. Search “dinonline thanksgiving rabbi” (mods won’t let me post links)
Now the question is: Is a non-denominational religious holiday permitted for Jews to celebrate?
Which qoute?
What is turkey soup? Is there such a thing?