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@Boobie
“I’ve never heard of excessive shopping or eating being the cause of marriages breaking up or homes being destroyed”
of course excessive shopping and eating have been causes of divorces
“the dumbing down of society because there’s no reason for any child (or adult) to do any type of research any more”
there advantages and disadvantages of having the internet – i know a lot more than i ever would without the internet, there is no substitute for good researching skills but there is also no replacement to having databases such as google scholar, westlaw, and msdn at my fingertips.
@DY the second type of person – the one who goes on kosher sites for hours is not an addict that is precisely what i am saying. not every obsessive behavior as an addiction. labeling at as such implies that the internet is some mind sucking device which it is not. that is not to say that anyone who spends numerous hours on the internet is neglecting his family and doesnt have problems obviously the contrary is true but it is not an “internet addiction” and as a psychologist just dealing with the internet portion of the issue would be a grave mistake.
@2scents i have posted reasons before but i will do so again. no filter is perfect and if you are running scrapers and a filter decides to block something it can become very difficult to find the issue. in addition if the filter decides to block something on a major site or i need to access a new site that is not allowed on the filter a loss of thousands may result as the market changes rapidly from minute to minute. one of the companies i work for is a data aggregation company – a filter would create a bottleneck in such a case and i can just imagine what my boss would say if i would want to email my history to someone. a company also needs to be able to directly access facebook and twitter as this is an integral part of marketing strategy in todays day and age.
@Health why don’t you respond to things as opposed to just denigrating them – you misread the gemara. my rosh yeshiva gave a speech a year ago explaining why we are against toeiva marriage and abortions as public policy and that was not the reason he gave. what are you are saying is simply not true. you didnt respond to my other comment either. if we werent allowed to buy from anyone who supported things we sont beleive in (ie. things which go against the sheva mitzvos) you would not be able to do buisness with many large corporations or the US government. again Sam2 is right and any posek will tell you that.
@DY internet addiction implies that people who go on filtered internet would be no different in fact some of the articles you have posted on this site have made similar arguments.
based on my experience i agree with Health also guys are prone to exaggeration in addition guys can get drunk faster with a chaser. a 6 pack of beer is not that expensive – 5.50 in nj or 6.00 in ny and can be gotten for less if you know where to look.
you could just use a simple shell command if thats what you are looking for
@DY it is not at all semantics because such addictions existed before the internet calling it an internet addiction is not factual and is incredibly misleading.
@ZeesKite, Csar i have read plenty on the subject and i still maintain my position read the rest of that paper and you will see that i am right. there is a reason why it has not been included by the APA as a disorder (they considered it but decided not to in 2010) – its not actually a distinct disorder. there are many psychologists who agree with me. please do actual research and don’t just google stuff.I fully agree with Sam2 and the Beer Heitiv is talking about a situation where the money would be used for avoda zara not to promote avoda zara. i am assuming that no one here pays taxes because taxes go to the government which in turn gives that money to planned parenthood which supports abortions. You have a right to choose where you buy from but saying there are issurim involved is just plain silly.
@Boobie not trying to be callous here but yes your husband has an addiction but its not to the internet. there is no such thing as an internet addiction to my knowledge. people can be obsessive at times but not every obsession is an addiction. calling an addiction to inappropriate sites “internet addiction” is patently wrong.
@2scents you are in a position to have a filter on your network there are many people who do not have that luxury.
“I would like you to give me an example where filtered internet would prevent you from making a living.”
Are you serious? I am assuming you have zero IT experience.
I do not understand your comment about facebook and twitter but if you knew anything about internet marketing in todays day and age you would not be making such comments.
i am not sure how your “experience” puts you in a position to disagree with anyone.
@DY apology accepted i wasnt taking anything personal and i think we both want the same thing at the end of the day.
@DY when i said you i didnt mean you – i meant that people will not be convinced by a rav who uses the language of kannaus. also this is not about convincing people it is about working with people. as far as the straw man arguements go you had me making recreational use of the internet equal to business uses, saying that i believe everyone should have unfiltered internet (which i don’t) etc.
@DY again with the straw man argument i am sensing a pattern here. what i am advocating for is that people ask their rav because in most cases they will be pleasantly surprised and most rabbonim will be willing to work with them. generalized speeches and impractical asifas tend to scare people away. if you notice i was in favor of the flatbush internet asifa and very much appreciated the way it was arranged how the speeches were coordinated and that it was very SOLUTIONS oriented.
“Or maybe they know what they’re doing, to convince as many people as possible to avoid the terrible fate that they have seen many go through. Why should you assume they don’t have a valid reason?”
if that is their reason they are not intelligent people i think it is better to assume that they don’t fully understand the situation. You will convince very few people by being a kanai.
@DY I asked a shaila and i was allowed so obviously it happens. dealing with internet for adults is different than dealing with internet for children – my rosh yeshiva believes that children should not be on internet connected computers whatsoever. You are creating a straw man argument again with the recreational and business internet users – what i obviously meant is that it is a way of life for people asking people to change that is difficult and the only way to get the results you want is to treat them like normal people as opposed to people who are irredeemable. to say it is not difficult for people is silly and i feel that there are certain rabbonim who because they are not fully aware of what people are going through are more than a little callous with their language.
@DY I can only tell you what i see and hear, and think of it from their perspective especially if they are used to being heavy internet users for their jobs or even recreationally, people are being asked to give up something that to them is a way of life and dont tell me there arent sacrifices – rabbonim are responsible for making their message clear to people – my rosh yeshiva is always extremely careful with that and i have great respect for him because of that. yes there have always been laitzonim and there always will be but when you start losing the average person thats when you know youre in trouble. based on speeches i have personally heard and have heard recordings and reports of, there are “certain” (not most) rabbonim who are being careless (i hope – dan lcaf zchus) and these rabbonim in my opinion are causing this. when we take all of the kannaus out of things and have an adult discussion most people are of the same view and have similar concerns once they are made aware of all of the problems. anyone with children would have to be blind not to. the key is to not turn these people off to not tell them they are ovrei and misayea ovrei averia and worse, people have to use seichel when words come out of their mouth. yes you are right the emunas chachomim issues stemmed from things that happened before the asifa but the asifa did not help things in that regard. you can call me whatever names you want but it doesnt change the facts on the ground. we have to be clear to everyone that we are all on the same side.
@shira1988 maybe your brothers have a high tolerance there were guys in yeshiva in my day who would get drunk off of 2 and half beers and this was in beis medrash
@zahavasdad considering that I make plenty of money off a blog and have been involved in many projects in which seo,ppc, facebook, twitter were very important I fully understand what you are saying. I think that there are certain rabbanim who tend to give a bad name to the rest and don’t seem to realize the power of their rhetoric.I am well aware of the damage that has been caused and there are many upstanding frum people who are now more reluctant to ask shailos on personal issues in part because of this. there are many people who do not have a rav for anything besides for Hilchos Nida. I beleive that these rabbonim have caused the greatest lack of emunas chachomim that has existed in probably the last 50 years.
try w3schools they are a very good resource and will have all the answers you need – personally unsure as to why you are learning visual basic and not java.
@zahavasdad, DaasYochid there is a very big difference between what rabbonim will say in public as general answers to questions and what they will say in private as an answer to a personal shaila. the problem i had with the asifa is precisely the impressions many seem to have that if they ask a shaila the rov will not understand them and that he won’t get it. this is not true in many cases and a lot of rabbonim/poskim are extremely knowledgeable and what they don’t know they will ask you about. as i have repeated before there are plenty of rabbonim who will be ok with unfiltered internet for work purposes on a cased by case basis.
@zahavasdad you dont really get the money then it is held in escrow and then amazon deposits the money – for me its usually within 14 days. this makes it less of problem. i dont think they deposit the money immediately for anyone unless they specifically select to get paid right then manually on each purchase.
@ConcernedMember dont feed the troll
@Csar that is not at all related to the op’s question
@The little I know
i am not at all in favor of underage drinking or breaking the law but “it is not in vain that there are laws about minimum drinking age, and that these laws were originally written for age 18, then raised to 21.” really – who ever told you everything the government does is not in vain – so requiring 66 hours of driving practice before getting a license is not in vain? (the parallel is that both were designed to prevent traffic accident fatalities)it was actually done because this was a huge issue to women voters and was probably considered to be politically expedient at the time to do so. it was also based on common law which had people becoming adults at age 21 which is also not relevant to todays world.
there are several reasons – there are people in the frum community who can not afford health insurance and this does nothing to change that – especially since now many of those people will not be eligible for mediacaid under the present law. expecting them to pay this tax is unreasonable and creates more of an unnecessary burden – this also does not mean everyone will be insured as i am sure that people especially initially will pay the tax which is less than the cost of healthcare rather than be insured. the other problem is that rates will skyrocket for the rest of us who do have insurance. a lot of the countries you mention maintain prohibitive taxes on their citizens to pay for these social entitlements at the cost of having a lower standard of care. there is nothing in this law that protects the consumers from the insurance companies raising prices dramatically. the law sounds real nice in theory but in practice what will probably happen is that the individual mandate will not make it worth it for the insurers to offset the costs of pre-existing conditions – even the potential that it wont will dramatically raise premiums. people are very nervous considering the bad economy these days and are very worried about the concept of one of the basic necessities – namely healthcare becoming unaffordable.
@yytz just read it – you buy this congress never intended it to be a tax but its a tax business to determine standing? this is even further than Verrilli was taking it. also i disagree with you in regards to the mandate, as a mandate and a tax are governed differently the biggest example is that the republicans would only need a simple majority to overturn it – no filibusters allowed. if the republicans win the senate and keep the house the individual mandate will be gone. this is not an unlikely prospect considering that the democrats are defending a lot more seats than the republicans are. a mandate would require a filibuster proof 60 votes which would probably be unattainable. Roberts gave the republicans a powerful tool with which to strike down the mandate and possibly the law as a whole if they didnt include a severability clause which as far as i know is absent from the law. There is no way that Roberts is not well aware of this fact.
@zahavasdad i am sure there are very few people who smoke for 12 hours a day so that means they arent addicted?
also the problem with standing would be the Tax Anti-Injunction Act
@yytz if the individual mandate is a tax it isnt really an individual mandate.
@Kosherham it is safer but if i wanted to i could tunnel in there the same way i could into any network. nothing is fully “safe”.
so your solution is that they should mess up their kids names instead what kind of purpose is that? a better solution is to enroll your kids in a hybrid program such as landers, ohr hachaim, ner yisroel, or shaar yashuv where you get the best of both worlds.
this will teach the kids a sense of achrayus which is lacking in many yeshivos. btw im not sure why online makes it worse – this kind of stuff was happening before the internet became as prevelant, then it was movies, going places etc.
@Nechomah i believe yytz is referring to scalia and breyer’s views on the 6th amendment which is the right to due process which includes things like the right to confront your accuser, laws governing sentencing, juries etc. with some spillover into the 4th amendment in regards to search and seizure.
@2scents your premiums were going up no matter what happened
@nfgo3 of course politics and the president influence the courts decision albeit indirectly. If you want a good book on the subject read – Lee Epstein and Jack Knight, The Choices Justices Make. This was a textbook for one of my classes.
@yytz the individual mandate actually was ruled unconstitutional by a majority of the court – it only survived as a tax. i fail to understand how they could have ruled on the case because no one had standing because the tax never happened yet which is precisely why Verrilli argued it was not a tax – this points to an evolving position on the part of Roberts. I think this was a brilliant move by Roberts as he doesn’t get into an altercation with Obama and maintains the courts position as a ruling body while creating an environment where it would take only 51 votes in the senate to overturn the individual mandate and possibly the whole law.
@DaasYochid if its not an addiction and what people are really “addicted” to is socializing, business, information and basically life in general that sort of does take the teeth out of the argument – yes people have been wasting time since time existed since time was invented. the internet just provides them with an easier outlet to do so. the solution is to be more careful with time management and be more productive not accuse the internet of being the problem. my issues with the internet pertain to shmiras enayim related issues alone and i resent the attempt to make it into an all consuming boogey man. i could go through this particular piece line by line and show you how the claims do not logically follow. arguing against the usefulness of the internet in my opinion is just plain ridiculous and that is precisely what this piece tries to do. the headline is “deadly attraction” and you still think that the author is not engaging in hyperbole.
@yekke2 i am surprised that it worked in your yeshiva as such a move would be extremely ineffective in most yeshivos – for sure in beis medrash.
not nearly so clear cut on the purim issue – many rabbonim especially in lakewood disagree with you
DaasYochid,
actually if you read some of the articles that come up in a a simple google search you will see much that actually supports my conclusions. the internet has become a way of life for many people – imagine not being able to talk to your wife the whole day, not being able to get directions to where you need to go, not being able to find recipes to make supper, not being able to know whether you are making or losing money etc. people who are separated from the internet feel cut off from the world – and understandably so. the author of this article engages in oversimplifications to prove his point – which seems for this part of the article to say that it is an overall bad thing which must be curbed – in addition it is unclear what percentage of the population actually experiences such symptoms. do some research on the topic, read through the raging debate about it in the psychology field about it – it seems that there is as of now no clear cut evidence that it is in fact an addiction.
@The Chassidishe Gatesheader using amazons webservices will give u enough power to do it for sure with a password of 7 letters or less – this was done 2 years ago already i believe and isnt all that complicated to do. i havent seen any updates but i am sure that by now u would be able to do longer passwords.
you can crack wpa using amazon’s webservices
wep takes under 5 minutes to crack
if a hacker knows what he is doing he can get in anyway.
@DaasYochid and here we go again people are not addicted to the internet or technology – people are addicted to socializing and information and that is what the internet provides. “In one case, students were denied access entirely and 79% reported suffering severe edginess and depression” i saw the same study – it is because they feel shut off from the world – as if they were put in solitary confinement – again not a sign that they are addicted to technology just a sign they are addicted to socializing which is a natural human thing. the word addiction is overused and most people who use it have no idea what they are saying. also the irreverence doesnt come because of the internet it comes because we are all socially connected so things spread much easier. this article misconstrues facts and presupposes its conclusions. there is a case to be made that the internet is a problem – this is not it. this continues the thread of hyperbole that exists throughout this pamphlet.
@commonsense both rashi and mitzudas tziyon translate its as pondakita mocheres minei mazon or mocherez mazon.
You won’t be able to survive in the real world unless you learn how to write in cursive.
@RabbiRabin was never quite sure where they got the stuff about the giraffes but at least it gives kashrus speakers an easy opening line which they always seem to take.
@apushatayid i happen to have really liked r’ reismans speech. i did think though that some of the stuff he said was a bit naive – ie. the part about windows and bios passwords working because banks use passwords. also while i agree with him that the focus is on the good kids, it is very difficult to protect them even using the measures he described because chavra chavra is lei and google seems to be a great chaver. it didnt take me too long to figure in my head how i would circumvent such security measures and i am by no leaps or bounds a computer genius. it is also quite difficult to filter for many people because of business purposes. ultimately i think there are really 3 different issues in regards to the internet problem which have to be dealt with as such – the parents, younger kids, and teenagers vhamayvin yavin. all in all though he did a great job of informing people of difficult concepts in a concise manner and i think that is the best anyone could hope for.
@DaasYochid
according to what i heard which is slightly hearsay – i have not confirmed this myself through any reliable sources – rav mattisyahu saw the booklet prior to the asifa and rejected it due to some of its content. this would be very much in line with my opinion. i liked what the booklet did in regards to descriptions of filters – and this part was kept for the flatbush internet asifa. my point was that the booklet gives a false impression of what the problems are and is in fact not in line with what most rabbonim i have spoken to believe. it is also in direct opposition to the tone of the speeches given by rav mattisyahu in bmg prior to the asifa. the asifa was not supposed to be about scare tactics or hyperbole which is why such a thing had no place by the asifa. it was supposed to be a moment of achdus and tefilla not a moment of kannaus. i still believe that the tenor of the arguments here should be toned down a bit but maybe thats just because im too old-fashioned.
‘In most of these cases there would likely be a problem with or without the internet.
Again, you made that up. You don’t see the problems (you’re not a rov or marriage counselor), so you’re projecting your wishful thinking on the facts.’
zahavasdad did not make this up i have worked with many otd kids and adults and i can tell you that the biggest problems have been the educational system, the parents, and some times immaturity on the part of the kids. the internet is a very small factor. you in fact are the one who has been projecting his wishful thinking as you keep on “wishing” for the internet to be the problem when it is not. i am sure that if u volunteered your time to work with such people you would drastically change your opinion on the subject. it is a good thing the rabbonim by and large have not taken your tact in dealing with this crisis.
@DaasYochid i am thankful that you finally showed your true colours. you are not engaging in what most people would call a civilized debate and instead are randomly attacking people. I dont have to continue arguing with you because you continue to make my case for me. you have obviously never dealt with otd kids before – otherwise you would know that by and large every thing u said is false. you keep on creating a straw man and attacking it ferociously despite the fact that you are well aware that my position and zahavasdad’s position are not what you say they are. Lastly, contrary to what you believe the gedolim do not actually agree with your position and the biggest proof of that, which you still have not responded to is that they did not allow this pamphlet to be handed out by the asifa.
@DaasYochid “No one “wishes” it, and no one is claiming it’s the only or even primary cause. But to deny that it has caused major problems is to blind ourselves.”
The stories you yourself put up here shows to the contrary. I said people wish it would be the cause, because then it would be easier to ignore other problems in society such as our educational system amongst other things. I have never said the internet does not cause problems. however the exaggerations such as the ones contained in the stories you have posted have to stop. people will continue to ignore the problem if they keep on seeing and hearing things like this.
@popa_bar_abba i have to say the pamphlet is making a pretty black and white argument.
@recipes you make a faulty assumption ” Non-Jews also do not want their kids seeing pornography” actually most parents in the secular world think its a natural thing and it has become very accepted – yes many dont like it but you do not see them installing filters on family computers. you dont really see much innovation in the internet filtration field because as a whole there isnt much demand to do so and the demand has been decreasing over time. the only ones who still care at all are the more religious catholics.
@Csar you are just proving my point – a person could be great at school or a job and have no social skills and not remember where they left their glasses the night before. i agree that iq is a valid tool i just dont think it measures over all intelligence. see my previous comment about dyslexia which you still havent answered.
@Csar iq places a disproportional weight on certain areas of intelligence. statisticians tend to like iq and most others ie psychologists and scientists tend to think it is not nearly as good of a metric as the general populace thinks it is. IQ measures something and it seems to do that reliably but to say it measures overall intelligence is largely unsupported by modern science. I do not know what tools are out as this is not my field so i cant give a definitive answer as to which test might be better.
@DaasYochid how exactly in the story i sent u at all implying that – if anything the story implies he has no clue what the cause was just that he “knows” they had unfiltered internet and it even says it was monitored. i think this is a common misconception that the internet and otd crises are interrelated – this is very much wishful thinking.
you said “It is silly to ignore the very real message because there are other possibilities.” the real message i see from this pamphlet is that we are blaming everything on the internet when there are way more plausible answers to the situation. The reason i believe this was not given out at the asifa is exactly what you said, ironically – this pamphlet is ignoring the real message they were trying to send.