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@hello99 what if an album is not being sold in mp3 format at all – i would think this might change things (see my thread about the latest move by sameach). this may have an effect on massig gvul because it may not be considered the same product. unfortunately i did not get a chance to look through ur mareh mikomos yet but i hope to do so soon.
@uneeq good point @ hello99 i appreciate you fulfilling my request for the mareh mekomos
see the yaaros dvash for a very interesting perspective on this question he says the chiyuv is even on an older brother becasue of hakras hatov as the older child could have caused the mother to be unable to have more kids during childbirth interestingly if i recall correctly he also only says kavod is obligatory.
@hello99 i would love to see “precise” mareh mekomos and not just names for this – it is my understanding – and as far as ive been heard and seen from poskim very clear that the main issur involved is hasagas gvul and not gezel (the chasam sofer for example clearly argues with you on intellectual copyright) i would add rav belsky to the list of people who seem to imply that it is not gezel rather hasagas gvul – his only issue with the saying zeh neneh vzeh lo chaser is that if you are listening to it you probably would have been willing to pay something for it.
YW Moderator-42 my point was – and this was proven by my example that you are allowed to borrow cds as opposed to buying them that there would be no “chiyuv” of vehavta in such a case – yes it is a nice thing to do but it would not mean that one is doing an issur if they copy instead of buy. in fact i think if i am not mistaken that most poskim hold this way – the battleground seems to be maasig gvul and to what extent such a chiyuv exists.
YW Moderator-42 please read the whole answer i gave
I have to say i am surprised at the naivete of some of the posters – excessive drinking would be a more mild example of what goes on in yeshivos ans a lot of more idealistic girls would balk at that even though many guys do not do that once they are married – here a shaila should be asked in questionable situations because not everything needs to be said and some things need to be said at the right time. the most important thing is to makes sure you have a rav or at least a rebbi or a mentor involved who can provide you with guidance on these issue.
To answer RABBAIM and akuperma the issue is saying that there is hasagas gvul on a buyer – obviously if u sell a service that another yid is selling that would fall under hasagas gvul assuming u are compromising his livelihood. that is the issue the chasam sofer and others have grappled with. the way music is stored on cds actually may prevent such a tnai from being valid. in addition not all tenaim that a mocher makes are halachically valid – rav belsky holds that one would be allowed to make copies for personal use ie one for home one for the car even though the mocher would prefer you buy 2 copies. it is totally dependent on what is considered normal usage. also if someone copied the music and the mechira was batel the mocher would be obligated to refund the money which i am pretty sure the music world would not be interested in. one popular to try to get around this problem (i think this was aderet who did this) was to say you are only renting the cd. many rabonim held that such a tenai didnt matter either because what you are buying is not the cd it is the intellectual property the cd is just a holder. In addition the whole point only has any validity in regards to physical cds – many people purchase music online in the form of mp3s (i personally purchase music that way because it is much cheaper) 2) i am not sure why that question is at all halchically relevant. 3) that is a very indirect veahavta lerayacha as the stores have already purchased a certain amount copies – is a good thing to do yes of course (i purchase every music cd myself either through mostly music or amazon.com) but that would in no way obligate anyone to buy the cds. according to this logic you should never borrow a cd from someone because the mocher would feel happier if you bough the cd. the major machlokes seems to be in regards to hasagos gvul alone with rav belsky and rav simcha bunim cohen of lakewood among others holding that it is an issue. to reiterate just that no one is confused the eirlich thing to do is obviously buy the cd because giving a yid parnasah is a big mitzvah. I am dealing with this issue from a purely halachic standpoint alone.
dont buy acer unless you want a huge hassle with drivers out of the box it already started giving me the blue screen and i know many who have had similar issues. i have a toshiba and am very happy with it.
Also to answer RABBAIM if you cant make a kinyan you cant make a tnai
The issur according to rabbi belski is hasagas gvul i believe. Also geneivas daas according to most shitos is machazik tov lechaveiro which has nothing to do with dishonestly obtaining anything. genaivas daas is for example sending someone an invitation to a wedding when you know that they wont come and you dont want them to come but you figure its an easy way to get into their good graces. it is specifically limited to favor it has never been extended to other issues as far as i can tell. if you look in the poskim this seems to be very clear. i have yet to find anyone who holds that it is actually geneiva as there is no possible kinyan of any sort that can be done on intellectual property. the litmus test of “i would never have bought it” is a slippery slope however it is interesting that rav belsky didnt argue with the premise that such a concept is technically ok (albeit intellectually flawed) – if we would be talking hilchos geneiva there is no such svarah at all. dinah dmalchusa according to everyone but rav pam i believe is only by laws the government enforces and the government has not enforced copyright laws on individual downloaders in a while. the rabbonim who are maikal in this area (rav rottenberg in baltimore for example) hold that this is not hasogos gvul. There is a famous chasam sofer on intellectual property which is widely quoted – the rabbonim of the town had to create a special gezeira to prevent people from buying a set of rambam from a non jew who copied the typset from a jew and was undercutting him. It seems that they did
not hold that this was an issue of massig gvul (on the buyers part). This was a special gezeira because they were afraid torah would be lost if people could not make a profit off of printing seforim. I will find the exact mareh makom if people are interested but i think it is readily available online.