JayMatt19

@Hakatan

Sorry, was not able to look it up yet, hope to over the next few days.

But even if he says as you’ve quoted, that would prove yidden get caught in the punishment of other yidden.

The request has always been a proof that yidden can get “caught in the net” of a punishment for the goyim

Seems like the lekach tov is not a proof, based upon what you are quoting

You can call it a chazal all you want. Health backtracked and said it was a Malbim, and only according to one shitta in the gemarra. If you have different evidence that it is a chazal do share it.

Thanks

@HaKatan

You are still trying to bring a proof from Lot, you can’t.

I’m asking for a proof that a YID can get punished for the actions of a goy, and you show me that Lot (a goy) needed special protection to be saved due to the actions of a different type of Goy.

I’m not saying that a goy who is anti-toeva can’t be punished along with a group of goyim who are pro-toeva. I agree, he can.

I’m not saying a Muslim can’t be punished along with a group of Antiests, he sure can.

I’m asking for a proof that a Yid can be punished due to the actions of a goy.

Shabbos Lamed Gimmel Amud Beis

?”? ??????? ??????? ???? ????? ??? ?? ??? ????? ??’ ????? ??’ ???? ??”? ????? ???? ?? ?????? ??? ?? ???? ?? ????? ???? ????? ?????? ??? ???? ??? ????? ???? ????? ??? ??????? ??? ???? ???? ??”? ?????? ?????? ??? ???? ????? ???? ?? ???? ???? ??? ????? ???? ???? ???? ???? ??????? ?? ????? ????? ????? ????? ???? ???? ??? ??????? ?? ????? ????? ??????? ???? ?’ ????? ???? ???? ????? ???? ???? ?? ???? ?????? ??????? ?? ?????? ????? ?????? ??????? ?? ????? ??????? ?????? ??????? ?? ?????

Why did R’ Shimon need to answer why the babies suffer? Say teva “Well, mom and dad have it, so obviously the baby gets it”, Why not Oy L’Rasha or kivan…?

These answers weren’t good enough for R’ Shimon, and he had to have a reason why each man, woman and child independently sinned and thus were punished

2. We see from Chazal that protesting is sometimes called for. There are other cases, by goyim, too, such as Moshe Rabbeinu when Yisro’s daughters said Ish Mitzri, etc.

I can’t tell you one can directly extrapolate from Korach to this. But the concept is definitely there, and if gedolim say to protest it then this Chazal seems to be at least a “deyka” or indicator that this is, in fact, correct.

3. Lot would have been destroyed in Sedom, too, were it not for Avraham Avinu. The shachain part may refer to Jews (or may refer to non-Jews, too). But it’s not only a Jewish-Jewish relationship.

Let me get this straight. I bring a proof directly from R’ Shternbuch, who says to go to one protest, and only one protest. And R; Eliyashiv, zt”l, who never said to go to such a protest, yet did say to go to another (Emmanuel). And that can’t be learned from. Yet the fact that Moshe was watching Yisro’s daughters getting attacked can be learned from?

Talk about a double standard!

A protest can’t be learned from Yisro or Lot

Lot was saved by malachim because he had a zechus. (Kivan sheNitan reshus…?)

Avraham davened for him, he did not protest, he did not try to educate the people of Sdom. He kept far away.

Even when he told Lot to go right or left, R’ Schwab asks “Why right or left? Why not North or South? He didn’t say North or South cause Sdom was South and Avraham didnt want to go there, nor did he want Lot to go there.

Moshe saved people whom he saw getting attacked. He did not need to. We don’t learn from Moshe that one needs to. This was lfinim mishuras hadin.

But the concept is definitely there, and if gedolim say to protest it then this Chazal seems to be at least a “deyka” or indicator that this is, in fact, correct.

It seems like R’ Miller was really a daas yachid on this. He was a gadol and is entitled to be a daas yachid, but even the R’ Shmuel letter was based upon “R’ Miller says”

@Kozov

there is another factor: ?? ??????? ???? ??? ?? ???? ?????. But as Health anyway said, that occurence was likely particular to the Exodus.

You are right…L’fi The Malbim, Aliba D’Rebbe Yoshea

It wasn’t a Chazal, as previously mentioned. And the Ramban and the Sifsei Chachamim learn the passuk differently.

Thank you Health for taking the time to look it up posting the Torah here

Thank You Health

And R’ Yonasson would argue and says the Mashchis did differentiate even in the same house. So this poster Jay can hold like this Shitta.

I once heard a shiur from R’ Brevda zt”l describing makkas bechoros according to this shitta, as only he, R’ Brevda was able to.

Describing what it was like to sit in your own home, being forced to house an Egyptian 1st born in your home with you, since his parents were scared. And during all this you were eating Korban Pesach (his god).

R’ Brevda went on to say how this didn’t save the Egyptian. Seems like he geared his shiur towards the shitta of R’ Yonasson

Wanted to add this but too late.

So 10 out of the 11 times we see clearly that Klal Yisroel doesn’t get included. As to the 11th, there are plenty of other ways of interpretation.

Please don’t use choshech as a counter proof, they didn’t die because of the makka

@benign

Did you look at the gemarra before making that comment?

If yes I’d love to know how you learn pshat

@avhaben

It actually was quite common in various places. Nero married a young male in a very public ceremony. It became outlawed after the spread of Christianity throughout Europe.

A question was asked of me by “Naysberg” (probably Joseph) and I will respond. This will probably be my last response on this topic. I made my point, and I stand my this initial point (that we should look how to better ourselves when tragedy strikes vs. blaming others). The current nature of this conversation, whilst interesting, is far enough away from my initial point that I will choose to step away.

JayMatt: How do you feel about the aforementioned actions of Rav Miller, Rav Kaminetzky, Rav Cohen, et al?

1. Don’t ask me how I feel about the actions of gedolei yisroel.

I have no right to “feel” anything about their actions.

2. I’ll answer the following question “Having heard the actions of the above 3 gedolim, do you still stand by your position”.

Yes

There are a number of reasons why people protest:

A: Because they believe the protest will inspire change

B: They dont believe it will inspire change, but they feel they shouldn’t be silent on the matter, lest people believe they agree

C: They dont feel it will inspire change, but by protesting you are reminding yourself where you stand on the issue.(Mussar for one’s self)

Let me tell you something, the reason for the protest wasn’t “Option A”. Why were there only 40 people with him? Why not make an announcement in BMG and get everyone to go?

When there was a parade in Yerushalayim, there were many protests leading up to the parade. Friends of mine went to R’ Shturnbuch to ask about it. He replied “You’ll notice, I only signed the notice for 1 protest”. He was holding either options B or C. He told they guys to go to that one protest, and not leave yeshiva for any others.

I’ve been in Eretz Yisroel for about 13 years, I only remember once where R’ Eliyashiv zt”l said to go and protest, and that was in regards to the situation in Emanuel, where they were going to imprison the parents of school children when the school denied entry to some students. Never once did he say to protest anything “mishkav zochur” related

So if R’ Cohen and the other Rabbonim only got 40 people, and R’ Shternbuch said to only go to 1 protest, seems to me that the protests were supposed to accomplish something else.

Additionally, from what I can recall, there WERE Gedolim who said to vote for a “pro-toeva” candidate in an election not too long ago. Apparently, they decided a decision on whom to vote for was not as simple as “Just pick the Anti-Toeva one”

http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/article.php?p=41515

And getting back to the initial point, why would we be punished to harshly with a hurricane for not doing enough? Seems like those who say to protest, do so in a very limited way.

HaKatan

The gemarra in chullin says that the goyim have 30 mitzvos, 3 of which they still keep.

Seemingly all 30 are zechusim, it is just that gem area stated that they stopped doing 27 of them, but should they resume keeping it, sounds like it would still be a zechus.

And murder is certainly one of the mitzvos the bnei noach took upon themselves

I ignored it cause my logic doesn’t demand that.

Your illogical conclusions lead you to inject some twisted logic into my words.

I spoke about protesting how goyim should behave and about when to and not to protest. Not about avoiding government jobs, not about having a preferred candidate. Not about having opinions

Oh, and even though I didn’t imply that, I’m actually quite confident that a search of the forum will show no posts siding towards a particular candidate or party, I try to avoid those topics.

An issue affecting yidden directly, eg bris, shchita etc one can and should.otherwise no

Talking on a commity level here, don’t say that I’ve forbidden every yid every time

HaKatan Said:

2. The gemara clearly states that the only zechus the Gentiles have is that they don’t write a kesuba bein ish liIsh. Absent that…?

WRONG! WRONG!! WRONG!!!

Sure it is easier to argue when you make up the facts, but that isnt what the gemarra says. (dont believe me? have a look yourself. Chullun 92a-92b)

Ulla says it is the 30 mitzvos the goyim accepted upon themselves, and the only 3 that they still keep

1. Not writing “a shtar” for same gender unions, as you’ve mentioned

2. Not publicly selling Human flesh for consumption (Rashi: even though they eat it in private, they dont sell it in public)

3. Give Kavod to the Torah (this is probably a discussion in its own right)

1. We were not punished for what the gentiles did. But I’m not sure (I don’t know) we “did everything we could” either.

3. There is a concept of Oy LaRasha Oy Lishcheino, which means that if an innocent person associates with a wicked one then the innocent person may end up caught up, CH”V, in the punishment of that wicked person.

You seem to be contradicting yourself here, 1st you say a yid wont get punished for the goy’s actions,then you define “Oy l’rasha…” as meaning: “which means that if an innocent person associates with a wicked one then the innocent person may end up caught up, CH”V, in the punishment of that wicked person.”

So does he or doesn’t he? and where does it say that “association” is punishable? All I have to do is have such a waiter serve me at a restaurant and I can get punished? cmon

But the main point of your post which I’d like to discuss is where you say “maybe we could have done more”?

Firstly, where is there a mitzva to try to convince the goyish government to make their laws in line with our laws? Where is it stated that there is a Mitzva to do anything?

Secondly what should we have done exactly?

Given tzeddaka to the anti-toeva campaign, leaving less for yeshivas, mosdos and chessed organizations?

Taken our elementary, high school and beis medrash students away from their learning to protest?

That sound very anti-torah thinking to me. To suggest that it is in our best interest to take away from our Torah to try to suggest to goyim how to behave.

Point to note, I’d find it very interesting, should you actually suggest that we should take away the funds and time from learning, as you’ve been posting in the forum about the Israeli Army that one shouldn’t leave the Beis Midrash, since the Torah provides the protection (harei zeh mikra kotzer)

@The Litvishe Kiryas Yoelite – Wasn’t talking about gedolim, was talking about posters on frum sites, and the “Rabbi”no one ever heard of before who came out and blamed Sandy on the “toeva crowd”.

You will note that the real gedolim blamed things which are within our power to control

@akuperma – I dealt with your point in my 1st attempt my issue. Yes it was legal and around. But by the gov’t giving it legitimacy it makes it more ok in people’s eyes

@Healrh “So this isn’t just about how bad Goyim are and we are perfect, like you claim, which none of us ever said, but the fact that Frum Jews have Not been vocal enough against these people and have Not voted against these politicians who vote the Toeivah agenda, is what bothers me and many others! “

This was directly addressed in my 3rd attempt. Who should we be vocal to? The goyim? It is the job of a yid to educate a goy? Since when? It has always been our duty to separate ourselves form them and their mores, and for good reason. Additionally, there is no way you can claim statistically that if every frum jew voted against, then the STATE ELECTION would have turned out differently.

Please provide me with a proof of such a chiuv to go out and educate the goyim. Also please provide a proof that a yid can get punished due to the actions of a goy.

I dont believe that either exist