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Reb Eliezer,
Whoever wins on November 3rd does not change anything. It is all part of Hashem’s master plan for America and the World.
You yourself have referenced Rabbi Shafran’s open letter to the Jewish community – Sinai not Washington.
To remind you,
“When we vote, let us do so as Torah Jews, with deliberation and seriousness, not as part of any partisan bandwagon. We are not inherently Democrats or Republicans, conservatives or liberals. We are Jews – in the voting booth no less than in our homes – who are committed, in the end, only to Torah.”To co-opt a phrase of the Freiderker Lubavitcher Rebbe ” American iz nisht andersh”- America is not different (from Europe). ” After November 3rd is nisht andersh.
To those who think that they can decide for Hashem what his plan is, we do not have Neviim anymore. The Torah Codes are not nevuah. If they are, I would like to know the winning lotto numbers.
Mrs. Syag,
There is a debate tonight between Biden and Trump where they both are appearing on stage together.
Biden’s schedule is to be out campaigning until the election.Nope.
” candidates who go awol and decide not to make public showings less than 2 weeks before elections”
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
1
Do you realize how many Jews there are compared to Non-Jews in NY ?
You are under the false impression that Cuomo won the election due to the Orthodox Jewish vote. The people of the state of NY gave him power not the orthodox Jews.
He would have won even if all the orthodox Jews had voted against him.
He won 3,635,340 to 1,926,485.
In the presidential election, the orthodox vote is completely irrelevant in the final Electoral college numbers.He is the governor. Now we have to deal with him.
1
They fought Cuomo and lost. He is the Governor. The courts have ruled for him.
Avi K,
I find it sad that you and the rest of the trump crowd feel that a supposed revelation about Biden’s son from Trump’s personal lawyer that was not picked up by any newsworthy organization due to it being unverifiable and probably a complete lie is a reason not to vote for Biden. The NY Post is the NY National Enquirer. A complete and total rag.
Trump who was impeached with objective witnesses and verifiable testimony does deserve your vote ?
Chareidem not voting for Biden should just sit this one out.
As Reb Eliezer pointed out there is no republican platform. They have a slogan and a hat. It is more a cult than a political party.
Trump has destroyed the US so thoroughly that the Justice department , National Security and Intelligence , the Senate are all there to protect him and not to serve the people of the US.
antifagroup dot com , antifausa dot com , and isupporthitler dot com can be purchased today and configured to be redirected to trump dot com.
It is totally meaningless.se2015,
That is quite funny.
I won’t be voting for either of them in November and neither will anybody else since they are not on the ballot.
There are 215,000 reasons NOT to vote Republican in November.Mrs Syag,
FACT 1 “They tried the impeachment hoax. … And this is their new hoax.”
FACT 2 Trump needed to go to the hospital.
FACT 3 It wasn’t because he lost the sense of taste.
FACT 4 He got the experimental drug Regeneron that nobody else would have gotten.Mrs Syag,
I have found that it is your habit to take a post where you do not disagree with the primary point of it and just argue on ancillary comments.
Also , you disagree vociferously without any proofs.If you agree with the primary point then you should say that before you comment on the points that were brought in derech agav.
I could disagree with a lot of minutiae people say in posts, but try to stick to the main point.
Further, it exasperates me to defend a point which was secondary to my main point. Why should I argue about it if it wasn’t the thrust of what I was posting about anyway?
The main point was that not every person not wanting to take a lulav and esrog is because of the lying dems. “They are getting America unnecessarily hyped about an issue that is not as bad as they make it to be.”
If you disagree with it, then say so. If you agree with it, than why are you wasting your time and getting into an argument?
I don’t need to bring a proof from Trump regarding the seriousness of covid.
If yechi lives in CH then he can walk around to the shuls and count the empty seats. Or he can just read the front pages of Jewish newspapers.The ancillary point was that the president and advisers also got very sick and he needed hospitalization. Thus showing from Republican president Trump that it is very serious.
I did not need to write it nor defend it because it was not important to my point.Once you decided to be the arbiter of president Trump’s condition and calling what I wrote 2 lies, you will now need to defend yourself.
How do you know LIE 2 and 3 ? You do not have a special connection in the WH that told you his exact condition and they are not publicizing it.
My estimation (which is just that and can easily be disagreed with) is based on the drugs and treatment that they gave him.
President Trump was prescribed the steroid dexamethasone. Sean Conley, DO, the president’s physician, said the steroid was given to him in response to his blood oxygen levels dropping twice to 93 percent, according to STAT. Normal pulse oximeter readings usually range from 95 to 100 percent.
The steroid is typically recommended for hospitalized patients who need oxygen or are on ventilators.My estimation could be wrong but unless you have a better medical degree than me, your estimation is no better.
The only thing criminal is taking a Russian agent Derkach’s words as the truth.
Trump used his Russian connections to win in 2016 but the US is smarter today and won’t let him get away with it again.People being afraid of dying and getting sick, like the over 1 Million people dead worldwide, is not because of the lying dems.
It is simple facts. The disease spreads. Science always wins. It is not a political party.Just check out how great Trump and every single member of his administration are doing now that they believed it is all a democratic lie.
They all got infected. Trump needed major medical intervention from new and untested drugs to help him stay alive. Anybody besides him would be in the hospital now on a respirator.
I cannot believe that anybody who has watched the news from the white house as people fall sick one after the other since erev sukkos, can still announce that it is “the lying dems”.
I blame the republicans for ‘downplaying’ (trumps own words) the virus.
These events are usually not started by the Gedolim but are the result of an Askan who works to plan, coordinate and implement the event.
To whom is this question being addressed to ?
CA,
You have a great idea. Gantz klal yisroel believes in the koach hatefilah, especially in the zmanim of ratzon of Elul and Tishrei.Did you go to a Gadol or organization to suggest this idea?
If you want something done , just do it.
Trump has taken 210,000 Americans down with him.
That is his track record. Not protecting Americans during a pandemic.White House’s Larry Kudlow on Trump cutting off talks: “We’ve only got four weeks to the election, & we have a justice of the Supreme Court to get passed. It’s too close to the election — not enough time to get stuff done at this stage in the game”
He has no time to help Americans during a pandemic and get his SCOTUS pick elected.
So he does away with relief for Millions of Americans who need help today. (Remind me which party cares about Americans again.)
In the Trump era money does grow on trees for the Federal Government. He is going to give the wealthy another tax break if he wins election.
The deficit is 3.3 trillion dollars this year and not a peep from a single republican. (unless we are talking about money for healthcare or education.)Biden never was and never will be controlled by anybody.
He will try to do exactly what his agenda is and what he has declared his policies are.
He will be the Leader of all Americans and not just the red states.
The allegation, without any basis, that he will be a puppet of 1 senator or 4 congressmen is comical.
It is the Fox news right who are grasping at straws to scare people away from voting for him. They have a few catch phrases that they repeat ad nauseum – like “Soros”, “Hunter” ” Trump did more in 47 months …”.
They already did this with casting him as a senile old man until the debate blew that up.
The prophecy that I saw a poster express on YWN, that he is going to die in 2 years is ridiculous and absurd.Although, in my heart, I would love for him to give the republicans some of their own medicine and show them what it means when you completely ignore the other parties valid concerns.
Syag,
You are agreeing that Caine got it from the rally but Trump who held the rally is not responsible at all ? WOW. WHY DID TRUMP MAKE EVERYONE WHO ATTENDS HIS RALLIES SIGN A WAIVER THAT THEY WILL NOT SUE HIM ?
BECAUSE HE IS 100% LEGALLY RESPONSIBLE! And morally also!There is always a tweet when I need it. This is a tweet from today.
“I will be leaving the great Walter Reed Medical Center today at 6:30 P.M. Feeling really good! Don’t be afraid of Covid. Don’t let it dominate your life. We have developed, under the Trump Administration, some really great drugs & knowledge. I feel better than I did 20 years ago!”
How many people will act carelessly and die from this one tweet ?
I am talking from experience.
I know many orphans and widows that are personally suffering due to covid.
I know many healthy people that suffered and are still suffering greatly due to covid.I know many Great Jewish Leaders – Rabbonim, Rosh Yeshivas, Rebbes – that have completely changed their lives and the lives of their followers due to covid.
Unless you have been living in a cave for the past 7 months , you know exactly what I am talking about.The only one who is doing the exact opposite of what is needed is DJT.
It is ironic that in a post about how Trump shows no respect for others you also show a lack of respect for me and my opinions. It is the midos trickle down theory.
The Biden supporters have a hard time showing more concern for Trump than he has shown for other people.
It makes sense to us that since Trump shows no consideration or respect to many others that he does not deserve it in return.
I can list 200,000 of them in the past 6 months. But it started from before he was elected. (ie Ted Cruz)It is not that we do not realize that he has done good things, but we realize that he has hurt many people without any conscience.
Wasn’t it hard in school to feel bad for the class bully when he got hurt?
I totally disagree with the assessment that the President and the Federal government bear no responsibility in Americans dying during a pandemic.
What is your feeling on Trump infecting his aids and the Secret Service members who are obligated to protect him? Or holding a rally that killed Herman Caine?KLC,
None of those issues are anywhere near the SC currently and they are not on the Democrats policy list either. They also would never be implemented nationally in the US. I am not sure why you are using those examples.
If the republicans would have nominated a normal republican , then I would agree with you.
However, the republican party no longer exists and it is the Trump party. He has shown us a lot in the past 4 years besides open bad middos that gives us reason not to vote for him.Syag,
There are a lot of people who post in the coffee room from the other side that also sound very angry. But I do not believe they are angry, just very firm in their views.
Here are a few recent samples.
“Let me be very clear and not mince words, you are a shotah for advocating voting for the Democrats who have open antisemites in their roster in leadership positions. There is no justification in my eyes, no matter how he acts to vote any other way then trump, period.”
“dems are evil.”
“I daven that democrats should fail”
“Democrats support Palestinians more than Israelis who are your brothers.
They are responsible for countless intifada and encouraging rockets from Gaza.”Syag and 1,
I am a patriotic American who sees a person acting against the principles of the United States. Trump denigrating the validity of the election is totally beyond bounds. He has made America into a banana republic like Belarus.
The only bots are the confirmed Russian ones who are continuing to influence our elections.
If someone is afraid of their vote being counted by mail, then they do not have to vote by mail. But do not tell people that they have to vote in person.
Voting in America is sacrosanct and is part of the constitutional rights of every American. Many people have given their lives for the ability to vote. Read the 14th,15th and 19th amendments.
What would you do if Trump attempts to stay in office ? Wish him well ?!
What do you care what happens to him or Melania after he leaves office?
Since when are Jews so concerned with what happens to a goy who has committed crimes or been unfaithful to their wives ?
Your posts perplex me because you have decided to treat Trump differently than all previous and future presidents.
Were you as concerned when Trump threw Michael Cohen under the bus and sent him to jail?
How about when Alexander Vindman lost his career because of Trumps pettiness?Coffee Addict,
Because there are many people at risk during this pandemic who will not risk their lives a la Herman Cain (RIP) to vote in person during a pandemic.
They are liberals, democrats, republicans and even trump supporters.There is no reason that everyone should not be allowed to vote by mail this year.
This is an issue that all American’s should agree on.Trump made this an issue because he is preparing to eventually disregard the election results by claiming voter fraud.
I can’t wait to see him dragged out in handcuffs and Melania handing him divorce papers.All the people who have been expecting Joe to be wheeled in on a stretcher connected to life support and surrounded by men in white coats got the surprise of their lives last night.
Joe is totally healthy. Physically, mentally and cognitively.
His way of speaking and mannerisms show that he is infinitely more presidential than Trump.In fact, now they need to find excuses for his tremendous debate showing. They are grasping at straws.
Joe won fair and square and the whole US and the world saw it.
SHOULD JEWS VOTE FOR A MAN THAT would not condemn a group like the Proud Boys whose founder Gavin McInnes said the following in a video?
“I felt myself defending the super far-right Nazis just because I was sick of so much brainwashing and I felt like going, ‘Well, they never said it didn’t happen. What they’re saying is it was much less than 6 million and that they starved to death and weren’t gassed, that they didn’t have supplies,’” he said, before adding, “I’m not saying it wasn’t gassing.”
He also blamed Jews for Josef Stalin’s starvation of millions of Ukrainians. “I think it was 10 million Ukrainians who were killed,” he said. “That was by Jews. That was by Marxist, Stalinist, left-wing, commie, socialist Jews.”
He then said Jews have a “whiny paranoid fear of Nazis.”
Instead Trump told them to “stand back and stand by”.
RACHMANA LITZLAN!
He will work on the following once elected.
1) PROTECTING AMERICANS AND RECOVERING FROM THE COVID-19
PANDEMIC
2) BUILDING A STRONGER, FAIRER ECONOMY
3) ACHIEVING UNIVERSAL, AFFORDABLE, QUALITY HEALTH CARE
4) PROTECTING COMMUNITIES AND BUILDING TRUST BY REFORMING OUR
CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM
5) HEALING THE SOUL OF AMERICAYou can read the details in the Democratic party platform.
FYI: most Americans do not see what you see.
1
POTUS cannot carry out an execution and he definitely cannot impose martial law. Do some research.
He is an elected official not a king.She does not spout any commy ideas. The commy title is reserved for Trump and McConnell who love and are loved by communist Russia and NK.
Her views are for a better social network and providing for the poor and middle class in America. It is surprising that the pro-life party hates helping people who are livingYou should read her website for what her views are because I am sure that you will agree with most of them.
The Democratic party is not dying by any stretch. In fact, they are poised to take back the senate and the presidency.
The republicans are so scared of the results of this election that they have to ram thru a SCOTUS appointment 30 days before the election. Go figure.
The only dead party is the republican who had no platform at their convention. The platform was ”
for whatever Trump wants in the next 4 years.” In fact , there are many republican groups and prominent republicans in open rebellion of the current face of the party such as the Lincoln Group.If Trump wins , then we can probably count on at least another 200,000 Americans dead. Again this is the pro-life party.
If Hillary was President , there would be 10,000 deaths and there would be 10 Senate and Congressional committees investigating her for the deaths.
1
RBG passed away before Rosh Hashana and I wasn’t reading the news during that time but I cannot find anywhere that she spoke in the Senate.
You didn’t post what you felt she said that was anti-American.
RBG is a female that was born and raised in NY. She is an inspiration to women. AOC is a female representative from NY. That is enough of a reason to have her speak on RBG’s death.Even if she became speaker of the house , so what? She is 100 times more Pro-American than the Russian and Chinese owned hypocrite Mitch Mcconnell.
I have no idea why you feel that AOC should not speak on the floor on the passing of RBG or what this has to do with her not being mainstream.
Please explain.
What did she say that you feel is anti-American propaganda?
From the articles that I read regarding her remarks on the passing of RBG, she was full of praise for the first female Jewish member of the SCOTUS.
“If you take the blue states out, we’re at a level that I don’t think anybody in the world would be at.”
You know who said it.“This is quite simply one of the most appalling and inhuman statements ever uttered by an American president.”
—Rep. Don Beyer
Both morally obscene and factually inaccurate, the president’s comment drew immediate backlash from lawmakers and other observers, one of whom said Trump’s remark will “be remembered as one of the most callous sentiments ever uttered by an American president…. if it’s remembered at all.”How many threads are going to be opened about the same topic with the same discussions ?
Enough!
There are more important issues to discuss that a single Biden gaffe.
Maybe 1 can tell us how many hundreds of thousands of Americans he will allow Trump to kill before he realizes that he does not care about American lives.
N0mesorah,
They are a real organization to Trump and his supporters. In fact ,the Trump campaign sent out an “ANTIFA ALERT” to supporters on Saturday as part of a broader effort by President Trump to instill fear of civil unrest and left-wing vigilantes.
This is even as he says his crisis management strategy where he lied for months about the COVID19 pandemic is primarily aimed at maintaining calm.Trump needs to create a ghost enemy on the left to match the real terrorists – White supremacists organizations on the right.
Rand0m,
Thank you for the post.
I feel that some people voted for the Trump idol and they believe that only he deserves to be called “The Chosen One” and therefore everything he does automatically has a Divine Imprimatur.It is a double standard to believe that Trump was Divinely chosen but Obama (Or Biden) was not.
It is also a double standard to believe that Obama was Divinely chosen but was completely fallible whereas Trump isn’t.HBS,
After a week on this topic, it is still 1-0. Since nobody has found a second Gadol publicly advising to vote for Trump, it is obvious that the 1-0 is not really very meaningful. This is not a contest of how many Gedolim support which candidate.
Ben,
“At the same time he did all that was possible to publicly portray confidence and ensure that Panic did not set in.”
Lying to the American people about the seriousness of the virus and telling them that the virus is going away is not a portrayal of confidence. It is criminal !
Did other countries leaders feel the need to lie to their citizens regarding the seriousness of the virus in order to portray confidence?
Ben Levi,
I used google because I do not have every newspaper, TV show and radio program delivered to my house. I do not know the history between Israel , Kosovo and Bosnia to come to a conclusion whether the entire MSM are not treating it as what can be described as a front page story of an accomplishment that is objectively a groundbreaking act of peace.
If you know the history, I will be happy to understand why this is front page news and is groundbreaking .I do not know who is lying on the issue of the statements attributed by the Atlantic to anonymous sources and denied by others. I take no stand one way or the other.
My point is that if I was Jeffrey Goldberg and I had senior officials tell me statements that Trump made, I would feel 100% correct in reporting them.common seychel,
The Atlantic is anti-trump. It is one publication. The Atlantic is not “The MEDIA or The MSM”. They alone are responsible for their story.
Everyone else is reporting what they said because it is newsworthy.
Trump has his own Pro-Trump media. I never hear his supporters complain about Fox news, OANN ,Newsmax, Bretibart ALL the millionaire conservative radio hosts, Twitter (which allows Trump to reach directly his followers) etc … when they are biased against the democrats.
The left leaning media is biased against Trump and the right leaning media is biased towards him.Resident,
Fox news went to the sources and they confirmed what was said in the Atlantic article . What else do you want – a tape recording ?
Jennifer griffin , “Not every line of the Atlantic article did I confirm, but I would say that most of the descriptions and the quotes in that Atlantic article, I did find people who were able to confirm, and so I feel very confident in my reporting,” Griffin said.
“I can tell you that my sources are unimpeachable,” Griffin said on the air Saturday. “I feel very confident with what we have reported at Fox.”The president lashed out at Griffin in a tweet after she initially reported that her sources confirmed details of the Atlantic report, calling for her to be fired from the network.
Can you imagine Obama requesting a news organization fire an employee ?
What difference is it that he disparaged McCain before he died ? It shows that he has no respect for an American war hero who suffered in a POW camp in North VN.
Can you imagine an Israeli politician saying that he isn’t a fan of the Israeli’s captured in the 1956 war with Egypt ? He likes people who weren’t captured.
Ben Levi,
The story was written by Jeffrey Goldberg in the Atlantic who vouches for the truthfulness of the story.
The multiple sources that told him the quotes in the story vouch for the truthfulness .
Why should the Atlantic quash the story when it is newsworthy ?The MSM picked up the story from the Atlantic.
Why should the media quash the story when it is newsworthy ? Fox news did their own investigation and confirmed parts of the story.It is not one incident that can be denied by people who were there. The story is about a president that has repeatedly disparaged the intelligence of service members, and asked that wounded veterans be kept out of military parades.
Trump’s denials are not believable anymore . Nor is anything else he says since he has lied so much.
Biden’s is not trying to unite with Trump. He is trying to beat him.
With a simple google search, it is clear that the MSM media has covered the Serbia-Kosovo deal.
I would change the name of this topic to Name 2 Gedolim that openly Endorse Trump.
There will only be ‘cricket noises’ in response.
I agree 100% to what mentsch 1 wrote that ” And more importantly its not worth arguing over. Our vote/hishtadlus can not pick the next president, that outcome is decided by Hashem”.
I will add that the reason we vote is as follows:
Rav Moshe Feinstein, zt”l, wrote in Igros Moshe that “It is incumbent upon each Jewish citizen to participate in the democratic system which affords us the freedom we enjoy.”Syag.
My long post about Rush was a general observation. We all know that nobody is changing their opinions here and the arguing sometimes degrades into name calling .
Maybe in the coffee room Trump supporters can read the opposing opinion, or facts, but all of the major frum publications and websites are completely supportive of anything that Trump does and attacking everything that the Democrats do.
That creates a echo chamber. That is why the President loves to listen to Fox news and OANN.
So when a very respectable Editor Binyamin Rose wrote in an Opinion Article titled , “Many Orthodox Jews support President Trump. I’m one of them — here’s why ” and gives the reasons that Orthodox Jews support Trump, it is hard to know whether the horse came before the cart or the cart came before the horse.If President Obama would be President today and over 185,000 Americans died from Covid19 , including many Frum Jews , would the following statement made by Rose be true – “Recent events have only solidified Trump’s standing, despite the coronavirus pandemic, which most Orthodox Jews view as primarily a health issue and not one that politicians can solve.”?
I assume that Obama and any Democrat would be treated much differently.
N0mesorah, if it is true that a health risk does not bother you on Trump then it shouldn’t bother you regarding Biden.
Syag, I am saying that he is cognitively sound now. I do not even know how you can deny it. For you to hypothesize that 7 months ago he was fine, but suddenly, he has gotten dementia, boggles my mind. He is on the media every single day. Maybe actually listen to him and not listen to Trump media which just points out his gaffes. He will debate Trump 3 times.
“TDS” – Should I coin the term Biden Derangement Syndrome? Do you see how silly that is and that it doesn’t advance the argument? (Similar to people posting about democRATS. It shows that you need help making your point.)
venezuela top line messages. What is your point? That he made another gaffe reading off a TelePrompter? Trump has 100’s of them. If it does not make a difference to you when Trump does it, stop pointing it out when Biden does. Wanting to make fun of Biden makes more sense to me than the belief that he has dementia. I listened to Rush after Bill Clinton won and he said that he was going to have fun the next four years on the radio. I was too naive then to realize that Rush’s goal was the EIB network making money and not America hearing the truth.
Biden supporters do not live in la la land any more than Trump supporters. You are living in an echo chamber. I post to YWN so Trump supporters have to deal with other Jews with different viewpoints that forces them to think.
I have friends that will listen to Rush for 3 hours a day and then Hannity and then The Great One. It lulls them into extreme close mindedness.
Trump has been President for the past 4 years. If you can honestly say that American is better off than it was 4 years ago, vote for him. If you think the opposite, then do not vote for him.
If you think Biden can help America become a better place, vote for him.
But the narishkeit of Biden going through dementia is ridiculous.2scents, are you a Doctor that can confirm that when someone needs two hands to lift up a glass of water there is no concern?
I did not say he had a stroke. If you can question Biden’s health, I can question Trump’s.The questions I brought up regarding Trump’s health are not the main issue of whether he should be elected or not. I have many strong Torah reasons why I will never vote for him.
Nobody besides his Doctor and staff know whether he has health issues.I only bring it up because Trump, his media and sycophants , including his Jewish media and sycophants , are hammering Biden on his gaffe’s and mental health. It takes a great deal of chutzpah and hypocrisy for Trump to hammer Biden on an issue that he might also have. It is a greater act of willful blindness for his media and sycophants to only attack Biden for the issue but not Trump.
2scents,
I did not allege anything here.
It is clear that Trump went to Walter Reed discreetly and without notifying the media and giving any reason for it.The using a second hand to lift up a cup of water is also clear.
I feel that the American voter needs an explanation for these things. If there is a good medical reason then fine.
If the President has health issues and is keeping Americans in the dark regarding them that is a conspiracy.Syag,
I do care about the health of Biden. There are no secrets. His health is clear for all to see. I ignore the stupid and silly repetitive defamatory accusation of Trump and his followers of a “slow and sleepy “Biden and that “He is in hiding .”
The man was on stage for all 11 Democratic primary debates in front on millions of viewers and was successful in all of them You think people would have realized his health ?I watched the videos of Biden that try to show his mental health and if you remove the laugh track from them , they are worthless in determining his health.
Dr. Kevin O’Connor of The George Washington University released a three-page medical summary of Biden’s health at the request of his patient, in which he described Biden as a “healthy, vigorous, 77-year-old male, who is fit to successfully execute the duties of the Presidency to include those as Chief Executive, Head of State and Commander in Chief.”
Biden survived two brain aneurysms in the late 1980s — one did not rupture. And while the condition was later complicated by subsequent deep vein thrombosis and pulmonary embolism, O’Connor states there are currently no serious threats to Biden’s health and medical conditions from his past are currently under control.
Biden is taking blood thinners and medication for acid reflux, cholesterol and seasonal allergies.2scents,
I did not give any explanation. What conspiracy ?
You didn’t give one either.
It is not normal health and I would like his Doctors to explain it.
Until they do, I assume that something is wrong.