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BS”D
I think I have visited E”Y 14 times, the most recent time being 3 years ago. Next trip is IY”H 25 Teves and I am not buying a return ticket.
BS”D
Sadly, with the present two or three minyanim shteiging away in Otisville, shidduchim between chavrei Federal Kollel can probably be arranged quite easily.
BS”D
Let me look later. I tried GoogleDocs only once but I kind of remember a tracking feature.
There is also something called DropBox that lets you save the Excel spreadsheet but then everyone in the group would have to install it.
BS”D
MDLevine – yes there are. Set it so that only admins can change things whereas others just have viewing rights. I’m off to a shiur but I can help out in a couple of hours when I get back.
BS”D
Sure – Megilah it is.
BS”D
Will B”N learn any except Beitzah (already committed to it).
I signed you up for Megilah – is that OK? Thank you. YW Moderator-72
BS”D
Please.
The only characteristics that are important are:
1) Height over 5’4′
2) Size no more than 2 so that weight is no more than 110 (that is pounds).
3) Shabbos tablecloth is white
4) Father of kallah wears same style and same brim size hat as chosson; it is even better if they have the same head size (what is in the head is of no consequence so long as the hat matches on both sides).
5) Father has a Lexus; doesn’t matter if he is in the red every month on lease payments and definitely does not matter if he is involved in stuff that could land him a 10 year shteler as the rosh koilel at Otisville.
6) TV only in closet
7) Internet filter but not at the office.
8) Went to the right sem and therefore can cook a chicken properly and make kugel in the same (Litvish, Poylish, Oberland, Ingarish etc) style that the chosson’s mother cooks in.
9) Mother wears same head covering that chosson’s mother does (again remember only the covering counts).
10) If you need any more criteria like this, I feel sorry for your daughter-in-law!
BS”D
The only men who have any business on a tznius thread other than rabbonim who can post the proper halachos, are those who have experience in the textile business and who have constructive suggestions for how to promote sale of proper clothing in our communities.
I happen to qualify as the latter, and I would suggest that women make deals with some of the wholesalers in the NYC “shmatte” district for their samples and overstocks.
They are located in the area near J2 and Kosher Delight; from what I remember having assisted a wholesaler with liquidation once, the wholesalers who sell to the public are found on the side streets (37th or 38th and 39th between Broadway and 7th Ave and also whatever street Circa Midtown is on).
Many of the shmatte district wholesalers/importers are tayerer Yidden from Iran and E”Y who are very receptive to helping frum people, and in these hard times they are very happy to offload perfectly good tznius styles that look great but did not sell for whatever reason. The prices can be as low as $5 per top or skirt (maybe even lower if you are buying large quantities in these hard times), and a semi-gemach can be set up to sell this clothing at cost to women and girls who take it upon themselves to improve in this area. (Alternately, the leader of a tznius group can check things out and see if it is worth organizing a shopping trip there – I’m no longer in the US and can’t vouch for what is going on there now).
Hatzlocho!
BS”D
Neturei Chabad here.
BS”D
While I said I was not going to post anymore, I did want to clear something up that I said to Teenager:
Teenager, from your last post I see that indeed you are very sincere and that you are someone who is truly trying her best to do what we all should do as Jews.
What I meant by not trying to save the world is that if you get too bogged down in trying to solve other people’s problems, or you try to help someone who really needs a professional, or you become discouraged because people you are trying to help do not respond, you yourself may become disillusioned.
Are you studying for one of the helping professions? If not, you should at least take some courses that might help you become a trained volunteer counselor. You are a true asset to the frum world and it is great that we have you back!
BS”D
I think it is time to close this thread.
First of all, I apologize for even getting involved as I see that what happened is that Gitty hijacked her mother’s thread and turned it into a thread about HER rather than what it was meant to be which was a thread about HER MOTHER.
Second of all, it is becoming an excuse to present all kinds of krum viewpoints.
Standards were more lax in the old days because it was barely socially acceptable to be frum and that was the best schools and shuls could do to keep people in the fold. In those days there was still some of the “miss work Saturday and look for another job on Monday” and even if you had your own business, it was hard to bring it to the level of a B&H because banks weren’t too anxious to extend credit to a shop that would not open Saturday. You could barely wear a yarmulke on the street without getting a rock in your face – and a Jew could just as soon be the one throwing that rock, especially if you were a “refugee”.
You know that, yet you do not want to acknowledge it in your nostalgia for the old days which were just that – old, not good.
This reminds me of the old excuse that between WW1 and WW2 standards were much lower – yes, of course they were because Europe was in a horrible depression and anti-Semitism was rife. Many could not even afford cheese, let alone worry about cholov yisroel, and hemlines were short because fabric was expensive and in short supply.
I and most of my baal tshuva friends would have found little in the old frum lifestyle just as I see little real yiddishkeit and no emmes among the less observant, along for the ride, crowd that is found in every community and tends to look more numerous than it really is.
What is more, at least in my world, they are the ones who really have nothing except huge bills every month from overly high mortgages and lease payments that they fund with scams that, while illegal, are neither big enough nor creative enough to make the big time chilul Hashem headlines.
Now, things are different and we have the ability to keep halacha as it should be kept. And that is what we are doing. If someone is uncomfortable, then there are still communities and shuls that are close to the old standard. But the shallowness there is amazing, as is the lack of a real feeling of community and the real frum values that are the rule in the more strict communities.
Gitty WAS shown another way of being frum; she did not accept it either. Now, she is here looking for validation and acceptance – to have her cake and eat it too.
Teenager is not looking for an easy way out; she has found herself but is being encouraged to get lost again by Gitty and other posters here. Stay the course, Teenager – yesh sachar lepeulatech – and don’t let the ones who aren’t as strong as you are, frum or frei, take you down with them. And don’t feel you have to save the world – if you want to help people with emotional issues then please get proper training so that you don’t end up doing more harm to yourself compared to any help you can provide to someone else. Whatever you do, don’t listen to losers explain away their own loserkeit by saying others are at fault.
Anyway my day off is over; I am going back to my no posts rule as I did not accomplish a thing except getting fooled by a confused young lady who is far less sure of herself and far less mature than she makes herself to be, and helping to throw a thread off track.
I should have responded at the very beginning in the spirit of “hake es shinav”, because some people need to be broken down so that they can rebuild again.
BS”D
That is not choice and freedom as the secular world sees it, and indeed your error was one of semantics. What is true is that there is plenty of choice within Judaism, and that Judaism recognizes free will. And you choose a particular TORAH lifestyle, not whatever lifestyle you see fit and then try to reconcile that to what you want to pick and choose from Torah. (That is either naval birshus haTorah or “conservative” depending on the details.)
But freedom and choice the way the secular world sees it is that you can pick and choose what YOU feel is kosher, or as some people are supposedly said to do, pick a different posek for a different question so as to get the answer you want.
BS”D
I do not think Gitty wants our advice. She has even tried to give someone else advice, which I, for one, find preposterous on a frum forum.
She is looking only for justification, which she will never find here.
If she convinces herself that she is right because of the responses given here, then I have to say, sadly, that we are better off letting her go for now. We have the truth and the fact that a few morons are hiding behind a facade and doing everything wrong while getting all the attention does not change anything.
Gitty is also hiding behind a facade; she KNOWS she is wrong but is temporarily so infatuated with her wrong choice that she cannot face facts and go back to the right way.
Just as Silvio Berlusconi said about the West versus Islam after 9-11 – we have the right to say we are superior to the frei world because we are, plain and simple. Of course we can’t always be that blunt, and I would not be this blunt on a general Jewish forum, but the truth is the truth. Whatever our problems are, they are nothing compared to those of the frei world, and many of our problems come because our yetzer leads us to want to copy the vapid materialistic values which surround us.
In fact, I think part of the problem is that as much as America is a free nation and relatively devoid of overt anti-Semitism, we still are often made to feel like second class citizens especially by frei Jews who are in reality jealous of us, and it rubs off on us at times. In the business world, I never had any real problem with non-Jews because of my beard and black clothing, but Jews have gone out of their way to make me feel out of place. That is because the non-Jew knows I am doing what I should and has no problem with that, whereas the Jew knows I am doing what HE should and feels like he is missing out but does not have the strength to face facts.
Gitty chooses candy instead of nutritious food because the candy tastes good and looks good. She also offers her candy bowl to others who are not sure what they should eat Wait until she gets that stomachache tomorrow morning or more likely, finds that after years of consuming that candy (or that Kool-Aid) and having to take Zantac every hour to mask the pain and discomfort, she is deficient in just about every nutrient known to man.
BS”D
That is a very long schoolday – are you exaggerating or is that the way it is now?
At one time, the boundaries between us and them were very strict and no one wanted to be like the drunken peasant or the illiterate Arab who surrounded us in the lands we left for America or Western Europe or E”Y.
Now, the culture of the drunken peasant (which I am still zoiche to see here in Ukraine and will not miss when I leave soon for E”Y LOL) is varnished with glitz and even education, but the culture of the Wall Street parties with cocaine and gilui arayois, or the frat party of college infamy, or the tailgate party, is really nothing different than the celebrations of the drunken peasant or Cossack. However, it takes a lot of strength and exposure to Torah to be able to see through the veneer of fun, enjoyment and being “with it” and to realize that secular culture is just as low as it always was and just as far away from the way we should live as it always has been.
Also, this culture is not off limits to Jews as its equivalent was in times of old – but it is just as inimical to Jewish values now as it was then.
Therefore, some communities may have become a bit more restrictive and isolated lately – but at the same time even these communities embrace technology and other positive elements of general society.
BS”D
Kids need to understand that Judaism is about choice and freedom, within limits.
Sorry, but Judaism is not ABOUT choice and freedom. There is choice and freedom within Judaism but Judaism is about using your freedom (bechira chofshis) to make the RIGHT choices. A choice as to whether or not to have a TV is not as important as what leads you to that choice – do you want your kids to be able to watch Barney the Dinosaur or Square Sponge whatever like their non-Jewish and non-frum neighbors do or do you want it because you want to watch The Discovery Channel with them and show them how to understand the topics shown there as “ma rabu maaseicha Hashem”.
BS”D
I hate to say it, but sometimes I think that there is a time to say “shygetz aross”. Part of the problem is that there are some in our communities who are indeed so far from Torah both bein adam lamakom and bein adam lachaveiroi that they literally need to be run out of town.
Instead, they often control the communities because they have those cash businesses – and because they keep the TV’s in the closet and the rest of the aveirois for when they are “unter vegens” or on vacation and no one sees them.
Was it Reb Michoel Ber Weissmandl ZYA who required “emmes” as a prerequisite for living in his community (Mt Kisco)? Maybe a group of people ought to come together and form a similar community today.
On the other hand, the idea of a “religious” person not committing any sins is an Xian one! All of us are living as imperfect Jews because we are imperfect people. For one it may be a problem with watching what she shouldn’t on TV, for the other he has a cash business, and yes, for the 3rd his shortcoming has to do with what used to be called 42nd Street. Yes, you can become a naval birshus hatoirah – but that is not what we aspire to and those who are at that level are really not regarded very highly in most communities – even if they have money, they are often the subject of much “mikve nayes” that is not very positive.
Nowhere does it say that if you keep kashrus lemehadrin you will not cheat on your taxes. The difference is that if you are keeping kashrus lemehadrin you (probably) know what you are doing is wrong and you do it only because you are tempted and think you will not be caught, or you think you are back in the old country where the poritz is out to get you and therefore you want to get him first. If you have secular values of anything goes, and no right or wrong, or right and wrong being what society decides is right and wrong rather than what Hashem has told us is right and wrong, then why not cheat? The problem for a secular person with a secular mindset is only that he will be caught and go to jail and lose everything, not that what he is doing is wrong, because he does not have a sense of absolute right or wrong. I know many secular people, and most are law-abiding only because they don’t have the guts to break the law – when you speak to them they say, well, what that lawyer did with the escrow is the same as I would have done if I were a lawyer and had access to client monies.
As for kids playing outside being regarded the same way as TV, where is this the case? Nowhere that I know, and that includes Satmar.
BS”D
Teenager, it seems that you are busy trying to save the world rather than saving yourself!
There is a community leadership which is basically paid (in either cash or kovod) to take care of these issues, and if they cannot get their act together or they are the problem themselves, just move on ASAP. In 2 years you will have to move on anyway, and you will never see many of the people you are in contact with now, so don’t worry about problems that you will never be able to solve.
Don’t worry about the problems in your community if it means getting too deeply involved and being discouraged. And don’t think that being a magnet for problem cases is the same as chessed. These people need far more than you can ever give them unless you get proper training, and they are needy and take advantage of whoever tries to help them. Only a professional (and that does not even include most rabbonim) can help these people, and the best you can or should do is help them find a qualified professional.
Those who get into problem situations as we all do and just need encouragement to get through hard times are another story altogether, but it takes experience and training to know the difference, and when you have that, there are many proper outlets through which you can help those who can really benefit from your help.
When the time comes, you can get involved in the right way, or you can decide you are just not cut out to solve the world and therefore choose the path of a professional or business person who leads a Torah life and therefore quietly sets an example for the community without making a lot of noise or having an official title in some organization.
In the meantime, don’t get influenced by those who have thrown it off if you have already decided to come back.
Sorry to be so blunt, but Gitty has as little of an idea of the real world as you do; she is not someone who should be giving anyone advice, and you should not be taking advice from her or from others like her. Find the kinds of people you want to meet in the Torah world, not outside it. Whatever problems there are in our world, there are 10 times as many in the secular world, and the difference is that because no one believes in anything but themselves in the secular world, you can literally be left to die alone once your problems get too far out of hand. While not everyone can or should help in our world, unless you antagonize everyone around you, you are never alone.
That is because we know that we are never alone and that Hashem is always here for us, and we try our best to copy Hashem and do what He wants for us in this world.
And the only reason those who seem not to be doing what is expected of them stand out in the frum world is that we have higher standards. For instance, in the secular world, it is expected that when a man travels abroad on business on a regular basis, he has a girlfriend waiting for him regardless of the fact that he is a married father. When someone in our world does that, and yes, it does happen, it is a scandal of the first order as it should be.
When people in certain businesses and professions are caught for white collar crime it is considered typical behavior by his peers who are doing the same but have had better luck and have avoided prosecution. And if the convict is Jewish, the only support he gets comes from Torah organizations such as Aleph, as his own have disowned him, simply because he got caught and they did not (yet). When it happens in our community, it is an embarrassment, but nevertheless we try to help the person who is caught navigate the legal system and deal with prison because he is still a Jew and we know we, too, are not perfect and can succumb to the yetzer horo as he did.
BS”D
Teenager:
Have you finished high school yet? Sem? If not then now is the perfect time for you to experience another community. Go away if you can, so long as you know you will not run into trouble away from your family.
Something tells me you are spending time with some of the marginal or disillusioned elements of your community and they are turning you off, or that you are looking in the sewer of the community and finding the sewer rats.
There are a handful of sewer rats in every community, and sometimes they do occupy positions of power or respect, often because their betters are not searching for kovod, or have no time, or because of some fluke in the community structure.
I know because that is what happened to me years ago. I stayed in a truly RICO (Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations) run community, the worst of the worst, even though I had alternatives available as close as a 25 minute walk away, and in the end I went off.
I knew better, because I knew I believed in Hashem and His Torah. I also knew full well that these people were not representative of anything but their own collective yetzer horo, and my bad decision cost me a lot of lost opportunities in every way imaginable.
BS”D
There are rebbis who probably would appreciate hand or power tools as gifts – keep in mind their salaries are not high and they often have to handle home repairs themselves.
Why is it that frum schools have pathetic art and music programs if they have them at all?
BS”D
You had to have attended the pathetic art and music programs in my suburban public school, and that was years ago before they started to teach tagging and rap and who knows what else.
I have long since blocked the music program out of my mind (I probably spent most music classes in the beis kisse or in “detention”), but I remember that the art teacher’s idea of art was a bunch of auto engine parts sprayed in different colors. Huh?
Also, as you well know, the rabbi who was accused of abuse was not what you would call a respected figure in the community; if anything he was far more in touch with and a part of the modern world and its values than most in your community.
Privacy in the secular world? Wait until you join the professional workforce and see how much privacy there is at the “water cooler”.
BS”D
see the thing is now i am sort of back ont track and hanging out and speaking to good people (some from this site) and i am still seeing this false facade
Perhaps you are looking for the false facade where none exists.
If you spoke to me when I was rushing out of Shacharis or Mincha to go back to work, you might think I was putting on a show and just rushing through davening or trying to spend as little time in shul as possible. I’ve run into people I haven’t seen in 10 years or who I see maybe once a year and the best I can tell them when I am in shul during the week is sholom aleichem – will you be around Shabbos – here’s my card (with my phone and e-mail) as I just about run out the door.
The truth is that I am making a very meaningful and even often enjoyable sacrifice any time I can pull myself to minyan during the week or attend anything going on in the community on a weekday, but life is life and I am in a hurry as soon as davening ends.
If on the other hand, you took the time to tell me that you need to speak to me about something, I’d give you my mobile number or my E-mail and I would make it a point to be able to speak to you some other time during the day.
And are you really listening to what people are telling you without assuming they are saying what you want them to say?
Just because someone is complaining about his broken car or washing machine or computer and wishes he had more money to buy a better one does not mean he is fed up with being frum. It means he is angry at high prices and low quality and he would be that way no matter his beliefs. And just because someone is fed up with some issue in his shul or his childrens’ school does not mean he wants to throw it all away. He wants the situation to be resolved in a way that is truly befitting the ben Torah that he is and that all involved in the situation should be.
BS”D
also every time ive gotten close to a frum person who tried to convince me how wondeful being frum is and so on and so forth when they finally open up to me, every single one has told me their life problems and how really they dislike being frum and their whole messed up story that has made me think no one really likes it just isnt open like me
I do not know who you are hanging around with, or who you are speaking to.
There are frum people who may tell you they would be financially better off had they not chosen to be/remain frum (not true anymore with this crisis), but then they will show you their families and tell you how much more they appreciate what they do have compared to the money they could have had. I was once at a simcha where the (rather eccentric) remaining frei member of the mostly frum family tried to show how much better off he is than his frum brother who was the baal hasimcha and who had a chance at a “successful” career before his tshuva, and he was shot down and laughed off by family and guests alike (this was in EY where people speak their minds). It was very easy to see who was truly happy and successful and who needed a good psychiatrist, regardless of the fact that the baal hasimcha was struggling financially and the frei brother was not.
If, on the other hand, you are hanging around with marginals, of course they will reinforce your confusion because they are as confused as you are if not more so.
I was a semi-counselor on a “kiruv” shabbaton once and I went with one of the teen participants to a family that never should have been allowed to host shabbaton guests.
The couple went on and on about how bad the system and the community is (and they did not match up to standards bein adam lechaveiro or bein adam lamakom themselves) and ended up reinforcing the wavering teen’s decision to stay in public school. I was only 23 at the time and my words hardly carried any weight against those of this semi-dysfunctional couple. This teen is not a frum adult today (nor is he particularly successful), and I do not know what became of the family either.
If he had been exposed to the right people, he probably would have participated in more shabbatonim and would have found his place in the frum world as he was earnestly searching but just at the beginning of his journey; these menuvelach helped him lose interest fast as he was not able to discern the difference between their rantings and the real situation in our world.
BS”D
BS”D
If your car gets stuck is there a secular version of chaveirim which will come in minutes to change a tire, unlock the door etc. and not only refuse payment but even try to refuse a thank you?
Can’t resist this one:
Why, yes there is, especially in large urban areas. Difference is that these volunteers will also take your car with them!
BS”D
What does it say that when a lot of frum Jews get together they create a culture that is so unappealing to intelligent, free thinking people?
I am sorry, but I think that you are grossly underestimating the frum world.
The frum world is full of intelligent, free thinking people.
What is more, as I am seeing in the mixed community I am about to leave for a much frummer one, it is the frum people who created a culture that appeals to a lot of intelligent, free thinking people.
However, especially in an open, “kiruv” community, this culture attracts a whole mix of people, from people who are truly sincere to people who are looking for a quick fix of status or feeling respected or whatever, so they are frum on the outside and in reality retain the crude secular culture of the shkootzim who surround us.
The ones who are just along for the ride are the ones who are making a mess of things. They muck up the society which we built, but because we have ahavas Yisroel, and the builders of the community want to be as inclusive as possible, we cannot throw anyone out and we have to find a level where everyone feels welcome (after all, the strongest people can do well on their own whereas the weaker people need to have the feeling that the community institutions give them).
In my particular soon to be former community, it is half-hearted “mekuravim” who want to have their cake and eat it too that bring down the level of the community to the lowest common denominator. Here it is excusable because this is a post-Communist society and the people have for the most part been educated under Communism or during the chaotic early 90’s. The problems will pass in a generation or so as people start to grow and will no longer look up to the present “mekuravim” as role models but rather will follow a small but growing group of more earnest baalei tshuva who in turn will bring up the transition generation (or they will set up new institutions and leave the present ones to the old guard).
In the US the problem is that we have copied the materialistic ways of the gaudy, new today old tomorrow McSociety around us and some have taken it to the point that the McSociety is the ikar and Yiddishkeit is the tofel even though they look like frum Yidden on the outside.
Basically, then, it is people who are just going through the motions who are making the mess. And that makes it far harder for sincere people to shine through; the noisiest people are always the ones doing the wrong thing and a tiny bit of this group are even “frummer than thou”, making it a point of keeping some very public mitzvah behiddur while keeping very unexemplary standards of Yiddishkeit behind closed doors.
You may not have learned in a school that was right for you, and maybe it was geared toward or dominated by the frum-for-show crowd (that was the case in a lot of places because that crowd had the very illusory gelt before the credit crunch hit their mortgage schemes and left them high and dry and unable to pay the monthly lease on their Lexuses), but if you go to a place where there are a LOT of sincere, frum people who indeed think and are truly ehrlich, you will not be able to make the statement which I quoted above.
Gitty, from what I heard, though I was never there, I think you would be well served to give Aish Kodesh in Woodmere a try. (Caveat: I cannot read a map for the life of me and I could be way off as to the distance between where I think you are and Woodmere, L.I. but I am sure you could find a place to stay there for a Shabbos if they do not actually have a Shabbaton from time to time).
No “box” of conformity there, no rigidity, people are not overly materialistic, and it is a place where people think and explore and grow together.
BS”D
Dare to drink this one:
“Chemical Ali”
Fill a large glass with ice and add the following:
100 mls absinthe (Pernod absinthe 68% is kosher and so are a couple of others)
50 mls rum
50 mls triple sec
50 mls Drambuie (or Benedictine if you hold by it)
Sprite to fill glass
See you next Purim :).
BS”D
Gitty, I dislike structure more than you ever will – my black clothing and full beard are more of a rebellion against the phony structure of the secular world than your leaving is anything to the frum world. I deal with the world on Hashem’s terms, not on the terms of the clothing companies, or the razor manufacturers, or anyone who says I have to work on Shabbos etc etc.
In fact some silly shaygetz on the street once told me my flying tzitzis are “unfashionable”. I pointed to a sign for Versace and I said my fashion comes from G-d and not that dead M”Znick.
I work for myself and do as much as I can by myself and that is how it will always be. The only rules I don’t break are the ones that will land me in the can or inflict harm on myself or others if I break them or the ones that are related to civil society.
But if you look at it the right way, Shabbos is the greatest escape from the structure that all of us, including you and I, must deal with during the week.
I am totally relaxed on Shabbos; I don’t watch the clock, or my bank account, or my computer, or the calorie or carbohydrate count of what I eat – OK I try never to surpass three pounds of meat, one US gallon of wine or one litre of hard liquor, but if I do, so what LOL!
What is more, the little bit of structure that you do have on Shabbos is more for men than women, so you really have it easy. I have to get to shul by a certain time – you don’t.
I think what bothers you is not Yiddishkeit – it is “frum” society.
There are 70 ponim letoirah – one or more are for you and if someone doesn’t like what you do, they can kiss you somewhere else besides the ponim.
You don’t need to be accepted by the entire frum world. If you felt that being a bit different means you did not have a place, you may have been right during childhood when sometimes that is the case, but now you are free to find your place, even if it is different from the one that may have been intended for you by your local version of “the system”.
And there are communities where a lot of what you mentioned just does not matter.
Today, with telecommunications, you can live in one place and essentially work in another (or as I do, work all over the world at the same time). Somewhere there is a place where you will find happiness within the very wide 4 amos of Torah.
BS”D
I don’t watch TV programs online (and I wasn’t aware you can do so in real time as opposed to downloading them for watching at leisure – your post implies you can indeed do so). I got bored a few times and halfheartedly watched a couple of PBS type documentaries that somehow made it to YouTube which is my entire experience with online viewing.
Actually, I see nothing wrong with those who do watch The History Channel or the nature shows via any media, or with using any media to view reports on an event of national or international importance.
I just don’t see the point of having a TV now that the Net allows us to pick and choose.
More importantly for Gitty; if you find Shabbos boring what you really need is a Shabbos away from your community. Unless you really enjoy routine or have a very close knit family or circle of friends, or a large choice of shiurim and activities that really interest you, Shabbos can seem monotonous even if you do appreciate the beauty of it.
I know because I need a few Shabbosim away from home as well and I can’t wait to go to E”Y this winter – but the E”Y shabbosim will be the high point of my extended stay there.
BS”D
Please keep in mind that with internet, we are in control of what we view (yes we are tempted which is why filters are necessary; even if you have no tayvas in that direction or are an occasional surfer get a filter because inadvertently hitting what looks like an innocent link can get you to places you don’t want to go as well as install spyware on your machine) whereas with TV, the station decides what we see and when.
That is why I don’t own a TV. I am proud to say that despite being an Internet professional and therefore the guy whom everyone hocks in shul when their computers or cellphones or personal websites or whatever are giving them trouble, I don’t even know how to operate or program a TV remote.
I’m not 100% sure because I’m not into TV programming but I believe you can get hold of some of the better programs like History Channel or decent nature programs (as well as the d**ck for that matter) online, so that there is no real need to own a TV. And as for news or financial updates, even for those of us who need up to the minute information for professional or investment purposes, the Internet is far better and more “real-time” than any TV news program. Tonight, I will be up all night (I’m in EY time zone) tracking the US election online. I really would not consider it an aveira to watch TV tonight and I can easily go to a friend’s house and watch his large screen TV, but in the end I will get better information and less fluff this way.
BS”D
Judging someone by a label is exactly what turns people off instead of encouraging them to explore other paths within Torah.
However, the issue at hand here could be the difference between real Modern Orthodox (R’ YB Soloveichik ZL, Yeshiva University etc) and sort of a flexible pattern of observance that was really more common years ago and is indeed dying out. At the time when this pattern was prevalent, it was socially and financially very difficult to be fully Torah observant and this was the best many could do – it was very commendable at the time.
Children from such “flexible” homes either take on a more standardized level of observance or indeed drift away. (YCT is a different issue altogether and is really a very small segment of the MO world). There are children of such “flexible” homes of the 1960’s who now wear shtreimlach, or learn in Lakewood full time, or are part of the “charedi” community in EY etc. (Of course, others are involved with the “conservative” movement or secular).
Real Modern Orthodox nowadays is almost indistinguishable from the “yeshiva world” on the outside except for the emphasis on professional secular education. While there are some points of debate in terms of hashkafah especially for the non-Zionists among us, the level of learning among serious YU beis medrash talmidim was quite high even in the mid-1980’s.
BS”D
I did not grow up in the system; instead I returned and returned again. Therefore, I have no idea what is being taught in the system, and by that I mean any system from MO to Mishkenois HaRoim. (As I was never confronted with anyone who spoke that way in my chosen community, I assume this is not the way Yiddishkeit is taught in our particular yeshivas, schools and seminaries, although we too most definitely have serious problems reaching some of our young people who are questioning and testing the boundaries).
But if people are being taught that they will be struck down by lightning for not keeping Shabbos, then of course rebellion and a desire to test the boundaries will result.
When a Jew who knows what Shabbos is does not keep it, he is just not fulfilling his potential and doing what Hashem put him here for. Nowadays, you do not get zapped for that. Even in the days of the beis hamikdash it was not Hashem Himself, or a ray of lightning that He sent, but rather the human beis din or Sanhedrin, that carried out skila for chilul Shabbos, and that only in very restricted circumstances.
I must say that I do know of two people – actually three, with the second two being involved in the same maaseh – who seemingly were clearly punished by Hashem for certain aveiros. The one I know firsthand was a clear case of mida keneged mida in that he destroyed something very dear to Hashem and a few months later Hashem took away that which was dear to him. The other two were conspirators in a resolved aguna case that BH ended very well for the now freed and remarried young lady, whereas these two met up with very unpleasant, but seemingly natural, circumstances at the time of the case.
But none of them did what they did out of questioning or doubts in their belief. On the outside these people are very frum. They did what they did out of plain old greed; they are like the real or imagined haimishe gonif who goes on and on about how he does not want to see “his tax money” pay for welfare while he himself runs a successful business off the books or in his bubbe’s name and gets Medicaid and Section 8.
And I knew of the first one before I went off; what happened did not change my decision at the time because for every person like that who seemingly got “zapped” there are ten who prosper despite their aveiros bein odom lamakom and bein odom lechaveiro.
Instead, the right approach to education is bekol drachecho doehu – to understand that within the limits of Torah, there are many ways to serve Hashem and all of those ways were created or enabled by Hashem in order to allow us to fulfill our true potential as members of the am segula who were created with a particular purpose.
BS”D
I know I said I would not be posting here in 5769 but since I happen to know who Gitty is I feel I should say a few words:
Gitty, I know you have your head on your shoulders and that you will not end up in trouble.
But I also know you are missing out on your real purpose by living the kind of life you are living. I fully understand that your community turned you off. But why not try something else within the 70 ponim of Torah? I know you online and not personally, so I don’t know what your particular interests are, but for instance, if you prefer being with a creative, offbeat crowd, there are many such communities in the frum world. If, as I suspect, you are more rational and career oriented and constantly questioning, then look for such a shul and community. And don’t necessarily look near home or near school. Take a weekend off and go somewhere else, away from your old and usual surroundings, and experience a Shabbos among people who do not know you and who do not assume they know you by your appearance (I’ve been fooled many times myself by people’s appearances and anyone who judges you that way is making a fool of himself, not you).
For that matter, take a semester or a year of university in EY and check out different communities every Shabbos until you find what you like – or (chas vesholom) at least know once and for all that you cannot fit in whatsoever with Yiddishkeit as it is presented in today’s world.
I went off for 7 , yes, SEVEN, years because I experienced corruption of the worst kind in my former community. And I am talking Mafia corruption, where the rav of the community was and is no better than John Gotti, Jr. because while he started out sincere, he could not withstand the particular pressures of the place where he lives and the yetzer horo got to him. The other choices in town were not a fit for me either as I was abroad and did not fit into the local Jewish culture. In retrospect, I had many places to run to but I stayed put physically and went down spiritually.
Those seven years were successful in secular terms – I was literally one step below a celebrity because of the respect I earned in my chosen field of endeavor. I would gobble down a package of smoked salmon every evening because I had no time to eat until 9, 10 pm – the phone was always ringing with journalists asking me questions and then I would buy the paper the next day and find my name and picture there. I traveled throughout Europe, stayed in the best hotels, filled my closets with the best clothing, liquor, cigars etc. But it was all empty; first of all I could not forget that I am a Jew, much as I tried to. Either something within me or the anti-Semites – or fellow Jews – reminded me fast enough. And there was just no satisfaction; if you think the frum world is all about money and yichus (and maybe it is superficially in some places), wait until you get into the professional world. It was all about showing off, wasting money on luxuries that were here today, worn out or available in a better model tomorrow. And in the end, these things had no value. I ate bear, kangaroo, ostrich – and they all tasted the same, like beef or chicken.
Now I am back for 3 years, but it is hard because I am older, and have to start all over again in many ways. Nothing I have from the old days is there anymore, and even if it were, it would be gone as of today because of the financial situation. I hope I can start over financially but in these times, who knows what will be. I never married (BH the one non-Jewish woman I was seriously involved with relocated and I could not follow her), and now I am finding it very difficult to find a shidduch. But people do not judge me for those years I was off; some people find it hard to believe that I even was off for seven years. Except that I do not yet wear the levush my married friends wear on Shabbos, there is no way anyone would know where I have been from the way I look or act.
And the best revenge was when that gangster rav saw me once, after I came back. He trembled with fear, knowing full well I could expose him (or that, as he was not in his home city and therefore unprotected by his minions, I would do something completely out of character and inflict physical harm upon him).
Everyone has questions. Everyone has times when they wonder whether or not Torah is true. There are so many things happening in this world that seem so unfair; far too many parents are burying children and far too many children are losing parents even before they reach the age of mitzvos. Many decent people will suffer during this financial crisis; criminals will find a way to steal even more.
But if you keep your eyes open, you can see there is a plan to this world. I had a business partnership go bad this past year, and at the time I was very upset as it was the reason I live and work where I now am. The clients were in the UK and my services were priced in UK pounds and only the exchange rate made it worthwhile. I had an opportunity to take the business from my ex-partner as he was negligent and clients wanted me to handle the work but I asked a rav and he said it was ossur. End of story. I changed my phone number and blocked all incoming E-mails from my ex-clients so I would not be tempted to try to service them on my own against the rav’s psak.
Had I taken the business away against daas Torah, or even had it worked out between my former partner and I, I would now be deeply in debt and unable to continue (and possibly subject to a din Torah and/or secular legal proceedings) because the exchange rate is not favorable anymore.
And yes, in these dark times of the final days of golus, there are a lot of people who have fallen victim to the yetzer and are in positions where they can and do cause spiritual, social, financial and even physical harm to others (all were the case with me). There are those who are just going through the motions and do not believe themselves, and their doubts show in every one of their actions; sadly some of them are in chinuch or rabbonus etc and they can turn you off faster than I can turn off this computer. There are also those who feel that Torah compels them choose ways of interacting or avoiding interaction with the darkness of the secular world that may be too extreme for you. (I’m probably one of them LOL!!!)
But for every one of those bad apples, there are a hundred people, some in official positions and some just poshuter Yidden (or not so poshuter Yidden – some are multi-millionaires who made their way in this world the honest Torah way; others are successful professionals, including creative professionals, who do not compromise in either their Torah or professional lives) who live according to the way Hashem wants us to live, and they are not only people to look up to, but they are even “fun to hang out with” – and much more interesting than the empty souls of the secular world.
Don’t make the same mistake I did – leaving because you don’t like the exterior of the particular community you were exposed to, and then coming back after a long time away when it becomes harder to re-integrate. See what the interior of the Torah world is by really learning and by really doing and by really looking for the right community for you (and not the one anyone thinks you belong in). Only then can you really decide. And I think that you will “choose life”, and not only you but many others will be better off for it. Just do it fast while you are still young!
BS”D
1) We are not “our greatest Rabbonim”.
2) As an Internet professional and someone who has also had the zechus to use the Net help people who have cried out, I think that in most cases I can tell the difference between someone who is just starved for attention (a/k/a a troll) and someone who is crying out because of real disillusionment. Even if the people posting some of what they post here do believe in their position, posting here is just a way of getting attention because they know they are in the minority and therefore will spark debate.
3) No matter what the case may be, none of the “krum” posters here is articulate enough to convince anyone of his position. So, the only possible danger is that the krum posts may show up on a search engine. But in the case of those who just look for attention, replying will just generate more and more krum verbiage in reply. If someone is looking for help, especially if he or she was mistreated or perceives to have been mistreated by our community, we need to reply very simply – we understand what happened but it is not representative of our world, and what can we do to help.
BS”D
I know what kind of posts you were referring to :).
The only value in replying (and actually I think I did see one post that was just about on the level of chalila tznius is not applicable anymore) is that our posts may be picked up on a search engine so that someone may see the troll post without a response.
BS”D
Yes, I would ignore it, because whoever posted it is just looking for attention and I don’t want to fall into their trap. The only way I would respond is if I could somehow figure out that the post is a disguised cry for help. Usually those posts contain something about the poster’s own life (which may or may not be true or accurate).
Posting on this board that tznius no longer applies is the equivalent of posting a recipe for baked cat on a board for people who keep pet cats. In other words, it is trolling. Don’t feed the trolls!
BS”D
People flip the tolko and krome in the various stanzas. I used what made sense as I do speak Russian myself. I’m in Ukraine so there has to be someone here who knows the exact correct words – will check again.
I think the title of the thread is the JEWISH national anthem – but indeed it would have to be in laha”k so that all Jews could understand.
BS”D
but feivel, tell me.
if someone sees a comment that is so wrong, unacceptably so.
say, a comment says pork is kosher; or chillul shabbos is not so bad.
what should the response be?
To ignore it because chances are whoever posted it is looking for attention. Alternately, if it looks like a cry for help disguised as hostility then the only reply is explaining everything with ahavas Yisroel as Hillel would have done.
BS”D
You see, that is why I love the Ku Klux Kartel! We may be divided as to their real impact, but everyone agrees they are nuts and no one agrees with their actions.
So, we can debate harmless stuff that no one gets too upset about, like whether they need to be whipped 10000 times with a wet loksh or whether a harsher punishment, such as listening to mp3’s (after all they are too frim to watch videos) of chickens being schechted at kappores.
And then there is the halachic question of whether Freeky Freedy is allowed to play with felt and plastic scissors on Shabbos….
BS”D
The best Chabad niggun that could be an anthem for Yidden is actually in Russian and would not help much!
Nye boyus ya nikavo
Y nye veryu nikamu
Krome B-go odnavo
Nyet nyet nikavo, tolko B-go odnavo
I fear nothing
And I believe no one
Except the one Hashem
No, no, nothing, only the one Hashem
BS”D
Check the Sameach Music website http://www.jewishjukebox.com (and the related blog/podcast site – link should be there) and the music magazines like Jewish Insights and Country Yossi. Someone, and it may have been Sameach, was asking for original compositions within the past year. Hatzlocho!
BS”D
See Rabbeinu Bachaye, Parshas Acharei Mos.
And since when do we pasken by him? I did not know that he supersedes the Shulchan Aruch and Remo!
BS”D
Are you in NYC? Dr Jacques Doueck, who was my dentist years ago, and has his office on Kings Highway in Brooklyn, makes seforim available for his patients in the waiting room (and I hear he now makes video shiurim available for patients to watch during dental work!); while he is B”H very successful it would still be nice to ask him if he wants some of yours as he probably has little time to check up on what he has and update his collection.
BS”D
Intellegent, I am going to ask a research physician at Hadassah Hospital who is a friend of mine to see if he has any info on that. Now dealing with post chassune exhaustion exacerbated by a 2 mile walk to get rid of all I ate so will do it tomorrow IY”H.
This is non-Torah? Isn’t this a little bit of an insult to YWN?
BS”D
Shindy, please read my post again!
I said clearly that YWN is not treyf chas vesholom but that I feel my own posts contribute nothing (and they are very wordy to boot)! No desire whatsoever to block YWN (I block the bad stuff – the LH sites and “ortho-skeptics”, inadvertent porn and phishing that I may accidentally surf to in the process of legit business research) byusing K9 which is free though I do use Vista) as I certainly will want to read the forums as well as the site.
BS”D
Seriously, where does the minhag of using a fish come from? Does it come from the hard times when a chicken was very hard to come by and beyond the reach of many, whereas a fish could easily be caught in a local body of water?
Or is it based on Harav Corleone as in: “Now, da yetzer hora gonna be swimming wid da fishes”?