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A woman needs to be able to respect her husband just as he needs to believe that his wife is beautiful.
The question is if he is looking for looks to impress his friends or because he needs to feel attraction….
“Most questions in shidduhim that have to do with size that have been asked of me have always revolved around the size of the girls fathers bank account”
Which is similarly wacky.
He’ll come around. Just keep reminding yourself. It’s the ones who have the biggest life struggles who become the greatest.
I was there, my friends were there. We all came around. Just keep showing him that Torah is worth living and that the keepers of Torah are a noble people to be part of.
It’s hard to see now but things will work out.
“-he has a serious anger problem
-he is depressed
-he lies
-he does not sleep at night
-he relies on alchohol and cigarettes to cope
-he is moody”
Sounds like most teenagers I know…..
OneOfMany: Nice!
“I think we should go to sem for five years, nap Shabbos afternoon, arrive at the table like a guest and leave dirty clothing everywhere, while the guy works full time, raises the kids, cooks, cleans up, shops, picks up all our dirty stuff (cause we don’t feel like walking it 6 feet over to the laundry basket)….”
Not all yeshiva boys are like that. From the limited exposure I’ve had, it seems those boys are the exception.
Why do you worry so much about where you’re holding now? See if you both want the same future. Don’t get caught up in these extraneous details like hallel yom haatzmaut and the like. You won’t find someone holding in the exact same place as you. All you need to look for is that you can handle (preferably respect) their present level of observance and that you both are moving in the same general direction. You should know this by the end of the second date.
Perhaps the reason none of them have been a yes is because you don’t have a bio.
Well, that and because G-d runs the world. But writing a bio is tremendously awkward enough that it should be sufficient hishtadlus.
“I see what ur saying, but I also agree with yentingyenta that we are complex individuals, and it’s kind of hard to really describe oneself. Hey – I’ve been married almost 22 years, and I still can’t describe myself ;)”
It is a huge process toward self actualization. Forget shidduchim, every person should know him/herself at least to the point that they could write one honest paragraph of who they are and what they want to be.
The second paragraph should not be what you want you want in someone else, but the traits that you think fully complement yours.
“Also it may sound a bit haughty (for lack of a better word) to point out all your wonderful points – let others do that for you.”
The paragraph should not come across as flaunting, but you want the shadchan to be able to tell your personality from what you write. Are you deep? Are you spiritual? Are you fun? Are you serious? What means a lot to you?
Just because family backgrounds match up, why make someone make needless phone calls when they can see if there is a purpose in any, from how you describe yourself.
RSRH: Spot on!!
The only thing that should be on the resume is name, age, rav, references, and those 2 paragraphs. Everything else is superfluous, and the picture is ridiculous.
If you use Google Chrome, in the Chrome Web Store ( https://chrome.google.com/webstore/category/extensions ) they have many different options of free filters. BLOCKSI is my favorite as it can be customized. If you don’t have Google Chrome, search it; it’s easy to find.
The extensions in the store only work for Google Chrome but most people prefer it as a browser anyway.
mmseeker: “Your answer should have been an emphatic, “Yes!”. I feel terrible giving this painful advice but the situation in your home sounds spiritually dangerous. Please, please save your other kids before it’s too late ch”v.”
Really? It would ‘save’ the other kids? In all liklihood, being as he is the oldest sibling and therefore revered by the others, the younger ones would side with him and resent the parents for making that move.
The only way he will ever return is if he sees that a Torah life is worth living. Chasing him out will turn him off like nothing else can.
2scents: “Believe me, those ‘friends’ dont REALLY care about him, nor are they interested in helping him with his issues (I am sure that are a lot).”
You know his friends? Don’t speak lashon Hara, even about people you don’t know, especially when your claim lacks substantiation.
write or wrong: I’m just thinking back, and I remember what allowed me to give Judaism a chance again. I had all these ideas that my parents cared more for their status than for me. Sparing the details, it took until I realized that my parents would literally do anything for me, as a person, before I was willing to consider anything about their lifestyle. You say you try to make his favorite things. Keep it up! It was those actions which allowed me to open my eyes and consider being religious.
He will come around. Be natural and loving, just not too much that he sees through it as ‘just another kiruv tactic’ nor that his siblings be jealous. Just make sure he knows that it’s him you love and you want more than anything for him to be happy and he’ll come to realize (without you telling him) that Judaism leads to the most fulfilling life.
He is judging Judaism by the Jews. You need to show him how beautiful and essential Judaism is and how genuine you are about your commitment to the Mitzvot and to your fellow Jews (ie your son, regardless of his dress) and he’ll realize for himself the beauty of Judaism.
I apologize that I wrote this choppy; it’s late.
Hatzlocha
Ya’ll should be more careful with the way you talk about The Holy Land. The meraglim did and look where it got us…..
There is nothing quality about America. There is nothing risky about Israel. If you choose to be stupid you can and will find the same shmutzy lifestyle that is the prevailing norm in America. But that is NOT a reflection of The Holy Land. If a person messes around, it is only the result of his/her desperation to run away from the truth, the truth which is absorbed in every rock, tree and creature.
Don’t blame Israel on those who abuse her!
No One Mourns The Wicked: It is universal logic. The alternate ‘logic’ is more accurately called immaturity.
Which are you calling the risk? The quality?
HaLeivi +1
google chrome extensions
Torah is a way of life, not a profession.
Yet many are of the belief that one should be uber holy at the expense of the parent’s paycheck.
Gone yet?
exlakewooder: Don’t generalize. I feel very unfortunate for you that you met so many shallow individuals, but where I come from, we do what we do because it’s right. Heck it ain’t easy, but yes, I have done the research and I have become a full believer. And since I believe, I gotta do.
“The point is simply that a religious life is not for everyone. It works superbly for some people and brings much happiness to their lives and for others it simply does not work and they are happier living without it.”
True say! I was definitely quite happy living your way. But the happiness was transient. This happiness is not as invigorating, but it is more comfortable and fulfilling.
Just please don’t make up shtus that we follow the Torah blindly. Because that’s just not true.
Be true to yourself. Do a self evaluation. Are what you think, say and do consistent? If not you need change.
Logician: I have not said it is shallow to judge a person entirely by looks, only ridiculous. But you called it greedy. I prefer your word.
Neither have I claimed to know what works for guys. I said we know how guys work, not what works.
far east: “SO why do girls get offened when asked for a picture.”
One or both of two reasons. A: Every girl (even the most beautiful) has gone through a process of hating and subsequently loving (or coming to terms with) her looks. Judging her on looks is as personal as reading her diary. You asking for a picture, and then judging her on it is reminding her of that struggle. B: It is frequently the one thing about her which she cannot change nor fake. It is not something she has worked on, just something she was created with. It shows nothing about who she is! She wants to be acknowledged for all that she has to offer and overcome but instead you are merely noticing that which she had no say in.
And you want her to send a picture? Go ahead and base your decision on her looks. But at least give her the decency of meeting her first.
Bechira can be applied anywhere.
True, you do not logically convince yourself to be attracted to someone. It is an emotional process but it is possible in a case where you truly want it.
“It is as someone described earlier – was it you ?” yup yup “that attraction is not based just on the physical, and so as the relationship develops, so do those feelings.”
I stand by what I said. I do not think the physical attraction is immensely important while dating. It is highly important in a marriage however, but your perception of your significant other’s looks change with time so the marriage should not be based on her looks! Just think for yourself if you feel your wife has become more beautiful with time.
“And it doesn’t have to do with values – we’re talking about accepting “flaws” in the physical.”
For me, I only seek a man who has the same vision for the future as well as the ability to get there. That is all. A picture will show me nothing about him than I can see in person.
The majority of people do not have actual flaws in their appearance. I really cannot understand the purpose in a picture. Is it to prove that the shadchan/friend did not mess you over with someone dysfunctional? If you have so little trust in the whoever set you up, then I do not know how you would be able to trust anything from them.
Logician: “Where are you coming from ?! Funny, I always thought it was the other way around – you naturally have a feeling, and that influences your mind, something you have to try to resist if necessary.”
It is called bechira. A person can convince them self of anything. I reflect back to when my a handful of friends/relatives were dating and were uncomfortable with the other’s looks. Now, months ahead (and others, years), they are obsessed with the other’s looks. I know I cannot see what they see and I remember their previous discomfort, but they wanted to love the all-inclusive picture of their spouse and it works.
Girls are not so desperate as you think, even if ‘boys have the upper hand’. Contrary to male belief, women were not created subsidiary to men. Why should we make acceptions in an area we hold against our values, because guys want it.
Don’t be an enabler and buy it for it. Even if I didn’t believe anything was wrong with the clothes, if I knew they not within my parent’s standards, I would have felt they were fools if they’d bought them for me.
Neither of you should care what others say. You have to pay up the King of the World some day. He dressing however he feels he can be happiest, if it is within the conforms of HALACHA (it’s irrelevant if it is ‘kosher’ for the community’s mishugas) then he is doing the right thing and should not be bothered by what some other people say. Because they are wrong for caring more about the externals than they do about the Jew inside.
Number one rule I’ve learned to live by is don’t judge Judaism by the Jews. Let him realize that just because someone judges him doesn’t mean they are right, nor that they have the halachik rishut to do so. Explain to him that he has his own struggles (i.e. with conformity and shabbat, even if he doesn’t think they are worth working on) so perhaps he can understand that people in the community have struggles with their perceptions of others (and in the same way, they don’t either believe it is something worth working on), so he can associate with them!
He struggles with ben adam lamakom, they struggle with ben adam lechavero. He has to realize that when a Jew hurts another Jew, it is dead wrong on their part and he is fighting the wrong battle if he throws away the Torah because some other people give it a ‘bad reputation’.
If a person wants to fall for the other’s looks, it will happen. That is for certain, it is the way we are wired.
“And so if for whatever reason, I want a book WITH a cover, I am free to judge ?…..Are the girls here trying to claim they don’t say no to boys regularly because of looks ?! (Or do i only know weird girls?)”
You are always within your right to do whatever you choose. If it is approval of your opinions you seek, I happen to disagree. But apparently you are being set up with girls of the same mindset so it apparently works for both sides of the mechitza just as much as it fails. In that case, this dispute is simply a matter of personal preference and therefore a waste.
write or wrong-
two possibilities:
1) he/she reaches the realization that he/she has hit rock bottom-wherever he/she draws that line
2) he realizes that there are other hashkafot which are equally acceptable. He is clearly unhappy living the life you have set for him (mostly because he has been burned). He needs to realize that he can define a new identity for himself within the conforms of halacha. Also, it would alleviate a lot of hurt if you could research for yourself where actual halacha ends and social standards (chumrot and the like) begin.
I am so happy that things seem to be picking up! Many teenagers change their dress as a rebellion against the notion that one’s value can be based on their external appearance. It is possible I am wrong but I would venture to say that you should not be making as big a deal when he makes steps in the positive direction, just as you should not make such a fuss each time he crosses the line. He needs to know that you love him just as much on his ‘better days’ as on the days that he knows he is doing what he should not.
far east: Notice my semantics. My apologies, I should have made the difference more blatant. In life, one cannot have a mature argument if they alter the other’s statement. I did not say attractiveness, I said attraction. Attraction is crucial, her attractiveness (in the physical sense) is not so necessary.
Logician: “Telling us to date those we like for their inside, and then try your best to become attracted to them based on that – no, I am very sorry, you most assuredly do NOT get what men are.”
I have not said to disregard everything physical, just not to make life-long judgments based on it. My objection is on sending a picture and having the entire worth of a person be dependent on his/her looks, before you have even met him/her!
Yes, you had better find one another to be appealing to the eye, but that factor should not be decided until after you have given each other the decency of getting know the person.
Because, far east and Logician, perceptions do change.
far east: “However you seem to be consumed with this idea that looks dont matter for anything and are only a side part of a healthy relationship. A picture doesnt tell the whole story, but a persons attractiveness is very important in a relationship.”
I know for certain that attraction is essential for a relationship. However, I also believe that looks enhance the attraction but should not define it. Nor should they define a relationship. Looks will grow on a person but only if the looks are not the foundation of the relationship.
far east: My argument is that one can not know right away if the other person is attractive; such a statement would be ridiculous. My contention here is about being attracted and having feelings within the first five minutes. Sending the picture is the same reason I am shomer negiah, because it distorts my perception of the situation. Shidduchim is simply a process toward finding the person you want to build a home with, not a chaynek to display in the hallway.
Logician: “perhaps the women should come to the conclusion that they really just don’t get the reality of what men are?!….Either way just give it up already”
We get what men are. I just wonder why it is that men seem to think they have this upper hand over women. Is it because the odds are in favor of the men?
What exactly should we give up? Our self respect? Our feeling of self worth? Our values?
Maybe you should, or have your kids, go out on a shidduch date without DEMANDING she be a size[] or of whatever looks standards you deem ‘crucial’. Find a girl whose values and goals are in sync with yours. Then, go out to meet a human being with intellectual thoughts, dreams and passion, and see if you can become attracted to who she is instead of who she looks like.
“So according to you all guys are unstable? Thats the way of the world, you may find it sick or disgusting, but thats pure human instinct. When you look at a guy, do you not know immediatly weather your or attracted or not?”
It is one thing to acknowledge that the person is attractive. To actually be attracted within one minute, that concept is from Hollywood.
Looks should not be a starting point! Looks should be a bonus!
far east: I know the way guys’ minds work, yet still, the mentality you mention makes girls like me sick. I believe that anyone who thinks he has found the one within the first minute, is delusional. Anything that starts that fast can end the same way. He can think she’s nice looking but he absolutely should not be attracted within the first minute, such a guy would seem unstable to me.
Any girl can be beautiful and she should not be reduced to her mere physical attractiveness, no matter how exemplary.
bein_hasdorim – “I know this sounds awful but it seems like the attractive girls have no problem sending a pic while the ones who feel they aren’t nice looking (maybe it’s in your head) don’t feel it is fair”
Personally think I am a nine but been told I am a ten. I have been set up because of my looks but I automatically reject the shidduch when I am told that he has said he needs a pretty girl.
Anything else I say will be censored, but your theory is wrong.
YWN-42 “Providing a picture is proper hishtadlus if it gives you a better chance of getting a first date. Supposedly there is a shidduch crisis out there. Perhaps we should make takanos that a girl can only give a picture to a boy who is within a certain age gap of her.”
HaQer “So if a boy has to choose between a whole bunch of “great” girls what is he basing that decision on? It’s the little differences-one girl has a better job than another, has a better education, family etc. But even after all those things there is still a list, so why not go out with the prettiest first? Not only that, but all those little things that a resume might list will sound that much better when he has a picture in his mind that he likes.”
I should allow myself to get to a first date because of attraction? I’m worth more than that. Have some self respect people!
It is highly demeaning. I will never give a picture and I do not want to see one. It ought to be unacceptable to give a picture to a boy or his mother.
“This isn’t shallowness, it is human nature. So take advantage of it!”
Human nature is such that the more a person cares about a person, the more beautiful they become.
Looks are meant to be an enhancer and everything else should be the deciding factors. Sending the picture breeds shallowness and, unfortunately, it results in the reverse situation where the looks determine what makes or breaks the shidduch.
I can only speak for myself. This is all I’m going to say because I do what I do because I believe in it and the more I say the more I feel I have to prove a point.
Women have just as strong a craving for knowledge as do men. I wish more than anything I could bring sources for my hashkafa and halacha, rather than ‘because someone else said so’.
I don’t make a mezuman for the reason stated, that it comes across as feminist and contesting halacha, despite that I learned (I don’t have a source because women are discouraged from learning) that it is just as big an inyan for women to make a mezuman as for men.
But you’re saying that because someone else does it for twisted reasons, it becomes forbidden. Yet, so much of what we hold sacred is practiced by other religions, for reasons of blasphemy or idolatry. Are we to research every voluntary practice to determine if others are doing the same action for tainted reasons?
Or maybe they just want to see the sources for doing what they are being told to do. The entire world had to be redefined through the chet of Chava because she was not told the actual halacha. It’s not forbidden to learn inside, just not encouraged.
mmseeker: Many of those book are books for maaminim. Those books will strengthen one’s emunah if they already believe, but if they don’t there are so many loopholes that the reader is left with more questions. The fact is over here that they had a mountain held over their head and they had just come out of 200 years of oppression in Egypt. And they had just died and been revived. It was a pretty vulnerable time and besides Moshe didn’t go through the Torah with them until later. They would have agreed to just about everything.
EzratHashem: The fact is that there are some guarantees in the Torah which, with all our science and almost 6000 years of accumulated knowledge, have not been disproved. The book Permission to Believe is written by a brilliant man and is pretty much about that.
“Everyone heard of the joke that when on the plane to EY the girls are watching movies while the boys are hunched over their gemaras, but on the way back it’s the opposite……Also I hear that’s why guys like the freezer, to settle down a bit.”
You do a disservice to yeshiva boys in the way you portray them. I hope it’s not true that boys use Israel as an excuse for freedom and to let go.
“It’s only for girls, who don’t know what a boys life is about, is it shocking to hear something’s that are the norm.”
Just because it’s normal for boys a certain age to act a certain way doesn’t make something okay. I always assumed Kollel is meant those who know what life is about and want to make their life Torah. How moser nefesh are you being if her father is paying for it? At least you should make yourself deserving of the check.
That being said, it’s okay to be human and to press snooze every so often or to need to get out once in a while by playing ball (and missing seder), if you really need it and not because you’re lazy or ch”vsh tired of learning.
Before you start dating, you should have an idea of the person you want to marry, and you should make yourself someone who you think that person would be proud of. Then there will be nothing to hide.
Regarding anything you are doing presently (both guys and girls):
If you honestly think it’s wrong, don’t do it.
If you honestly think it’s good for you, why would you hide it? If you honestly believe it’s good, you will be able to sell it well and (s)he will hopefully understand.
But know that the other person may disagree.
“What happens in EY stays in EY. Besides, she’s not telling you everything either.”
Apparently it’s okay to enter into a marriage based on deceit. Don’t gush forth with every dumb thing you’ve ever done but don’t pretend like it never happened.
If you think your life is not one (s)he would approve of, change yourself or you don’t deserve her/him. Besides that you had better earn her father paying the bill.
WanderingTeen and write or wrong- I grew up with the hashkafa of “mitoch shelo lishma ba lishma” and “adam nifal kefi peulotav”, that the more we do, the more it becomes a part of us. It took until three years ago, that I realized I had it backwards. The understanding of those two ma’amarim, are appropriate when a belief system is in place. I had been taught to do, do, do without having any appreciation for our heritage, that eventually with enough doing I would want to do. However, I have always been a deep thinker, and although I would ask all the questions, I never received answers that worked for me. W.O.W. you do what you do because deep down you do believe. At that point, however, I did not have a source of belief; I felt I had been fed lies and constrictions my entire life. I came to the point that I resented my entire childhood. I had been done with Judaism for a while and was going to try elsewhere when I decided to give the religion of my birth one last (truly openminded) chance.
Instead, and against everything I wanted to do (I, as well as many of my closest friends were not observant so it was going to cost me, besides that I didn’t care to believe it was true), I began to work from the bottom up. I began to work on my understanding of each individual mitzvah, and therefore on my love of God. It took time, but I began to realize how true and awesome our heritage is!
There are answers to any and every question, because the Torah is true! If an answer doesn’t suit you, ask again to someone else. If a person has a foundation of respect and belief in Judaism, everything will automatically follow. If not, the fact that we have to pay someday, is irrelevant because ‘who cares about a God whom I half believe in anyway.’
If the issue is a lack of answers, call Ohr Sameach, call Aish, call Neve Yerushalayim. And read those books by Rabbi Kellerman; extremely worthwhile reads. There are brilliant people who know how to give all the answers in a way that you realize how true it is.
definitely mac
I hate to give advice when I don’t personally know the person. I only know for myself and for other that I know in such a situation (whom I asked). I won’t tell you what to do, only what would have worked for me and my friends.
You said he believes in tefilla, that he says he knows when things don’t work out it’s because of your tefillot.
When I was finding my way, the more people reminded me of where I should be holding, the more I wanted to improve at a slower pace. True or not, I felt I had to prove that my worth was not dependent on my relationship with G-d. Even if I had already decided I was going to work on something, as soon as someone told me it was where I needed to be, I would get resentful and lose interest. As my friend said, “We all want to be in control and as soon as someone tries to cross that boundary, we get defensive.”
When people stopped reminding me that I had to daven or cover xyz, that was when I was willing start working on it. I had known it was true, but the more it was shoved down my throat (even respectfully) the more I felt I had to be rebellious.
If he is in the same place, he needs time and he will come around because he knows it’s true. But it needed to come from myself; perhaps he’s the same.
Nobody becomes frum because of the people who throw stones ‘in the name of Shabbat’, but many a person becomes frum because of an act of chessed. That’s why I said to make yourself enjoy it more, so he sees it’s something worth striving for.
Sometimes it’s necessary, sometimes it’s a waste of money. It goes both ways. I personally know many people for whom the yeshiva/seminary Israel experience turned their life literally from black to white (for many different reasons: social, religious, clarity).
Every person needs something different. If you don’t think it’s in the best interest of your kids, by all means don’t send them. But don’t ask why others send their children.
One sentiment common among all OTD kids (really most teenagers in general) is that the most they are reminded of something that others, but not they themselves, think they should be doing, the more they won’t want to do it. Even if he might consider davening, the more it becomes a fight, the less interest he will have. He knows G-d thinks he should do it, but the more he feels your respect of him is dependent on his personal ben adam lamakom, the more he feels like you’re jutting into his privacy.
I don’t mind sharing how I found my way back but I’m not sure how it would help. You mentioned he believes in G-d – I didn’t, nor did i believe in the validity of the Torah. Doesn’t seem like he and I were dealing with the same situation. Except what I said about proving that the Torah is awesome. Don’t try to be in competition with video games. Just however much pleasure you get out of keeping the mitzvot, work on yourself to love it more and the enjoyment will be infectious.
The actual declaration was before Shkiya. It was Friday afternoon and approaching Shkiya when the Jewish People’s Council chose to declare it a state before Shkiya in order that the the absolute genesis of the Medina would not involve Chillul Shabbat.
This is the same reason the day is never celebrated on a Friday, Shabbat or Sunday.
First of all, you seem like a great mother, that you really care for his best.
I am an FFB but was OTD for some of my teenage years and up until a few months ago. It took a long time for me and my parents to come to terms with each other, but now we have a tremendous relationship and I love and respect my parents immensely.
What frustrated me most about the system and caused me to lose interest were:
1) From how I saw the system, there were so many inconsistencies in the way my teachers and parents acted and the way they expected me to act.
2) As much as they (my parents and school) would say that they don’t expect everyone to follow a one-size-fits-all level of Judaism, everyone who does not follow their level of observance is radically in need of help (i.e. read the Dvar Torah from a Chayal blog)
3) My parents and the school cared more for how others viewed them than about the individual child.
IMHO a child first needs to learn responsibility before he can appreciate the Torah and Mitzvos. His role models need to exemplify integrity and responsibility. He doesn’t need to see that Judaism is ‘also’ fun; he needs to see how awesome Judaism actually is!
About the computer, it seems more like he is testing you. Have him earn the money to buy it himself; it may encourage him to get a job.
Sing your heart out all to the zmiros by the Shabbos meal! Bring up all your kosher experiences which could only happen in a Jewish framework (like something that had to have happened on Shabbos or Chag), and don’t make it appear like your trying to prove a point.
Let your children see how much you love the mitzvos. It doesn’t need to be said, all they need to see is that preparing for Shabbos and waking up for minyan, truly makes you happy.
Encouraging him to be productive is the first step toward building up his self-esteem. Give him space (but don’t be an enabler) while allowing him see that every single mitzva makes sense, and he’ll come back on his own.
Be strong in your values for yourself so he sees Torah is true! If he and the rest of the children see that Judiasm is not only worth living, but that you truly are obsessed with it, be”H you should see nachas.