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“All they want is to be left alone. They are going on to the Tel Aviv-Haifa bus and demanding that the hilonim dress modestly – they just want to run their own buses, their way, preferably without you hilonim meddling. “
Hmmm. Please explain how spitting on young girls in RBS, physically attacking hareidi soldiers and calling all MO Jews “amalek” is “wanting to be left alone”?
“Sinas chinom? It’s the truth isn’t it? You believe that the Torah tells you to live on the charity of others and learn full time rather than to work and support a family. True or not?
I do. Can’t speak for anyone else. “
Not sure how you can call yourself a Torah Jew, but I guess people can rationalize anything. The Torah teaches us that if you don’t teach your children a trade, you teach them to steal. Is that what you are doing? Not to mention the fact that by not working and living off everyone else, you are perpetuating the anti-semitic canard about Jews.
Finally, if everyone took your advice and didn’t work, please explain to me where you would get money to live from?
I have no problem with Jews learning Torah full time, as long you have a WILLING person ready to support you. If not, you are just a shnorrer living off the backs of everyone else.
Sinas chinom? It’s the truth isn’t it? You believe that the Torah tells you to live on the charity of others and learn full time rather than to work and support a family. True or not?
Health, how about you move to Turkey and start setting up the logistics?
Can you take kanoi and abra cadabra with you? Set up your own welfare state that relies on the Muslims to pay you.
abracadabra: You have real insolence to infer that you are right and everyone else is wrong. Even the great Chofetz Chaim, who lived as poor as a shul mouse, ran a grocery store.
Why can’t people like you work instead of living off everyone else (and whining about it!)?
The tanaim and amoraim mostly had jobs. Only now has it become not only acceptable, but preferable not to work. I love Torah, but one must combine it with supporting one’s family. Don’t you have any pride? Do you really think the Torah wants you to live off charity for your entire life?
Health reminds me of the simple minded pigs in Orwell’s Animal Farm: “Me-right! Zionism-wrong!”
Health: “Let’s get it straight -the British never hated the Jews. After the Jews started with terrorism – I’m sure this didn’t increase their love towards Jews. The arabs only started hating Jews vehemently because they were against Zionism. This is historical fact, no matter how much you deny it.”
Really?
Ever hear of the York massacre?
The completion expulsion of Jews from England for over 350 years?
The revocation of giving Jews citizenship in 1754 just a year after it passed (it was revoked due to British Anti-Semitism)?
And more recently, here’s some information from your favorite website:
“Though there was some growing anti-semitism during the 1930s, this was counterbalanced by strong support for British Jews in their local communities leading to events such as the Battle of Cable Street where anti-semitism was strongly resisted by Jews who fought it out on the street with Fascists elements. Consistent with its complex history, Britain was not particularly receptive to Jewish refugees fleeing the Nazi regime in Germany, and the other fascist states of Europe. Approximately 40,000 Jews from Austria and Germany were eventually allowed to settle in Britain before the War, in addition to 50,000 Jews from Italy, Poland, and elsewhere in Eastern Europe. Despite the increasingly dire warnings coming from Germany, at the Evian Conference of 1938, Britain refused to allow further Jewish refugees into the country.”
Gee, I didn’t realize that Herzl and his followers have been around for hundreds of years.
akuperma: “Note that the zionists aren’t discussing defunding yeshivos, but of seizing the students and their money, and seizing money raised in America so it can’t be used to support students learning Torah. Even the British and Muslims never did that. So this means Lapid and Bennett are more in a class with the Crusaders and Romans as enemies of Torah.”
Are you kidding or just delusional? Show me exactly where the Israeli govt is proposing seizing money raised in America. I want to see the EXACT language that describes this. Also, using comparisons of murderers like Romans and Crusaders to describe your fellow Jews is rather disgusting. It certainly adds to sinas chinam!
You gotta love these wikipedia posts and the blind faith that “Health” has in them. We have now proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that El-Husseini was a murderous anti-Semite who believed all Jews anywhere in the world should be dead. It must be the zionists’ fault (the same as the zionists are to blame for the holocaust and every other Jewish tragedy).
Did you know that Stalin was nominated for the Nobel peace prize? That must mean he was a saint.
rabbiofberlin: great post!
I am constantly shocked about how the standard among so many Israeli chareidim is to never work and live off the backs of everyone else. Then, they are suprised why there is so much opposition to their preferred lifestyle.
When you don’t teach your son a trade, you teach him to be a thief. Somehow, this teaching has escaped many supposedly religious people.
Health: “This wasm’t my opinion. I just stated facts. I know it’s hard for you deal with the truth since your whole life you’re living with Zionist lies!: “
If your idea of “facts” is quoting Wikipedia, you have more issues than I realized. Do you have any idea where “facts” on Wikipedia come from? LOL.
Please read this. It is a direct quote from one of the Nazis at the Nuremberg trial:
According to testimony by Nazi war criminals, the Mufti’s influence was critical to the German decision to annihilate the Jews of Europe. At the Nuremberg Trials in July 1946, Eichmann’s deputy Dieter Wisliceny (subsequently executed as a war criminal) testified:
“The Mufti was one of the initiators of the systematic extermination of European Jewry and had been a collaborator and adviser of Eichmann and Himmler in the execution of this plan… He was one of Eichmann’s best friends and had constantly incited him to accelerate the extermination measures. I heard him say, accompanied by Eichmann, he had visited incognito the gas chambers of Auschwitz.”
I guess good old Haj Amin the butcher couldn’t differentiate between “Jews” and “Zionists” as well as you can.
Health: Did you ever get a secular education? Ever study history? Ever read a secular book?
Forgive me, but you sound like an Arab. Everything you don’t agree with must be “Zionist Propaganda”. Try and read a few books my friend, instead of cutting and pasting from some website that you found that justifies your narrow minded viewpoint.
And BTW. I’m still waiting for you to explain how Zionists caused Chelminicki and the holocaust. Please explain. Everyone here would LOVE to read your views on this topic.
“Actually the truth is in many cases the Rabbanim refused to allow their flock to emigrate to Palestine before the 1937 White Paper made it illegal. They declared the land assur. Much like they declared going to America assur”
And we see how well staying in Europe worked out, didn’t we?
kanoi:”Do you think countries like turkey would welcome Jewish immigrants from all over the world and give them a place to live??”
So they would’ve all gone to America. Big whoop.”
If you tell me that you never studied any history, I will believe you. Otherwise, I don’t know where you get your information from. Wall posters?
While some American activists sincerely intended to assist refugees, serious obstacles to any relaxation of US immigration quotas included public opposition to immigration during a time of economic depression, xenophobia, and antisemitic feelings in both the general public and among some key government officials. Once the United States entered World War II, the State Department practiced stricter immigration policies out of fear that refugees could be blackmailed into working as agents for Germany. Beginning in 1940, the United States further restricted immigration by ordering US consuls to delay visa approvals on national security grounds. After the United States entered the World War II in December 1941, the trickle of immigration virtually dried up, just as the Nazi regime began systematically to murder the Jews of Europe.
Wake up! No one would accept us other than in very small numbers. Even after the war, only 20% of the displaced persons who were admitted to the US were Jewish. And although I would agree that some secular Zionist leaders were less than enthusiastic about taking in Jews who were not labor zionists, the fact remains thus, it is doubtful that that they could have done much anyway. I’m not excusing some people’s attitude, but it probably wouldn’t have made much of a difference. Today, despite all the issues you raise, Israel is the ONLY country in the world that will accept you solely based on religion. This is the first time in 2000 years this has happened. If you don’t appreciate this fact, I truly feel sorry for you.
ah talmid: “The zionists caused the severe limitation of the ability of Jews to be allowed to go to Eretz Yisroel before the war. They also said they don’t want the old Jews from Europe to come to Palestine. And they said they preferred a cow in Palestine than a European Jew.
And, today, Israel is the most dangerous and deadly country for a Jew to live in. “
Congratulations! You win the award for the dumbest post of the day!
Israel is the deadliest country for a Jew to live in? I won’t even dignify your post with a refutation. But let me ask you this: If you believe this, how can you justify living there?
“”More importantly, “Who exactly is going to defend you like in 1929 and 1936 when the Arabs decide to massacre you”? Or is your decision to repeat the holocaust?”
The zionists triggered those massacres.”
Some of the points get silier and silier. Did the Zionists trigger gezeirus tach v’tat? How about the holocaust? If you ever studied history in school (something I have my doubts on), you would know that the Christian and Moslem countries have done a bang up job of raping, pillaging and murdering Jews for hundreds of years. Now, there is finally a country that will defend our rights. A country that will deter Moslem attacks. A country that you had very little to do with building. And you malign it at every opportunity, while enjoying the umbrella of its’ religious security. Think things are better elsewhere? Try France, where wearing a yarmulke in the streets is a sakanas nephashos. Or Greece, where neo-nazis march openly. Or one of the Arab countries that hate your very existence.
Instead of hakaras hatov, you spit on Zionists. Attitudes like this led to the destruction of bayis sheni.
And to answer Daniela, yes, of course I believe in Moshiach. However, that would not prevent me from defending myself and my family if need be, rather than going like sheep to the slaughter.
Daniela: “”What is your point? That we don’t need soldiers or workers? Are you really serious?”
Yes, of course I believe in 200 years or less we will need no soldiers and no workers, no one will have to sweat their bread, let alone to spill their blood. You don’t believe that? Actually, even our nonreligious and nonjewish fellow human beings believe that (you can e.g. google “singularity”). For the time being, and keeping in mind that only a negligible fraction of the current world riches derive from actual sweat in the field or in the workshop (which is what brought down economies such as ussr a couple of decades ago, while debt-based economies such as Japan are thriving), there are more than enough volunteers for both roles, whether among nonjews (properly paid for their effort) and among jewish people.”
Sure, I believe it. This same utopian vision has been sprouted for many many centuries. The last time it popped up was in the late 19th century. Roughly 20-30 years later, World War 1 broke out.
I still don’t understand your point of view. You truly want everyone to sit on their tuches and not work???
Who will pay your social benefits?
Who will pay for your electricity? You want to live in a mud hut and eat cold food? Where will you get water from?
More importantly, “Who exactly is going to defend you like in 1929 and 1936 when the Arabs decide to massacre you”? Or is your decision to repeat the holocaust?
Daniela: “OK ifti99 but that will now not be a “danger” any longer, due to the fantastic govt that was somehow put together. Now what will be next? Soldiers are unwanted in modern warfare, work hours are superfluous in our highly automated production lines. However these hours have to be paid – and not a pittance, either. Yet they will not increase productivity or GDP. Where do you plan to obtain the resources to finance all of this? The economy is already as squeezed as conceivably possible, increasing taxation might even decrease revenue (start-ups will move elsewhere). Social expenses have already been cut. Foreign investors will not rush to invest, especially if social turmoil increases. Please explain to us your plan.”
I’m not the Israeli Finance Minister. However, for a smart woman, your post is most disappointing. What is your point? That we don’t need soldiers or workers? Are you really serious?
Israel’s economy is amazingly vibrant. The growth includes areas such as agriculture, high tech, energy, textiles, finance, etc etc. How do you contribute to it?
Israel’s military is the best in the region. They have survived against all odds as a lamb among 70 wolves.
Other than take money from those who developed this economy, please explain how you are contributing to it. I am amazed at the mind gyrations some people make in order to justify not working and not serving. They are those who contribute and there are those who take.
Again, do you really think the country would be better off if every able bodied male just learned full time? Or do you just insist that every non-chareidi work in order to support your lifestyle?
I have no problem with people learning in Kollel for years, IF their family can afford to support them, or if they can somehow support themselves. I have a big problem with an entire community choosing to learn full time, while expecting all the workers to support them. Apparently, most of the country agrees with me. If not, the chareidi parties would have won the majority of seats, no?
Kanoi: I am again, simply amazed at your selective retention of material. You have no problem with this:
“From Zionism shall spring forth controllers of gambling in Bucharest, Prague, and Budapest, drug dealers in Thailand, so called intelligence operatives in Central America covering for drug warlords and jails full of plain petty criminals. “
But when I show how ALL stereotypes are wrong, you jump to the defense of chareidim without criticizing what was written above!
Thank you for proving my point better than I possibly could. BTW, if the logic of this post alludes you, don’t even bother to reply.
“I would not be surprised to see the whole country collapse.”
Well, if the entire country followed the chareidi model of not working nor serving in the army, that’s exactly what would happen.
“ifti99:
“The arrogance among some of you is simply astounding. And I say this as someone whose relatives came to this country way before most of you in the 18th century. You think all Zionists are gamblers and drug dealers?”
AT never made such a blanket statement. He simply said that “From Zionism shall spring forth controllers of gambling in Bucharest, Prague, and Budapest, drug dealers in Thailand,” etc. Which is not too much of stretch; after all (as R’ Aharon Feldman points out in Eye of the Storm), Israel has a significant mafia and is the world’s number one exporter of prostitution; not quite a “light unto the nations”.”
Riiiight. The light upon the nations is tens of thousands of people who work off the books, don’t pay taxes, and then come visit the United States to schoor money for chanasas kallah. You gotta love how they fit four people in a car, and after you give one or two money, two more jump out at you.How much money do you think a deserving MO guy would collect in a chareidi shul? Three shekels? Yet some chareidim have no issue criticizing every one who is not like them (like secular and MO), but have no problem taking money from them!
Funny how your little stereotype cuts both ways, doesn’t it?
“Of those whose families came to EY in the 18th and 19th century, the vast majority disagree with you and are the strongest anti-zionists.”
You’d be surprised. You probably live in a bubble if you think eight generations believe exactly the same way.
” And it is doubtful the zionists will risk starting a civil war by attempting to jail thousands and thousands of Chareidi draft-dodgers. “
Watch. Chareidim are a minority with no support anywhere in Israel other than themselves. They have no monetary or military power. I’m not advocating this, but it will be a lot easier than you think. Believe me, the vast majority of the country will not be neutral; they will be enthusiastically on the sides of the government.
“From Zionism shall spring forth controllers of gambling in Bucharest, Prague, and Budapest, drug dealers in Thailand, so called intelligence operatives in Central America covering for drug warlords and jails full of plain petty criminals. “
The arrogance among some of you is simply astounding. And I say this as someone whose relatives came to this country way before most of you in the 18th century. You think all Zionists are gamblers and drug dealers? Honestly, you are same type of narrow minded bigot who believes all chareidim are lazy shnoorers who won’t lift a finger to help anyone other than themselves. Haing these bigotted views only increases the animosity that non-charedim have for chareidim. Is that really what you want? I guarantee you this will end badly. You have had ample time to work out a solution on the draft. Instead, your response has been like the Arabs… NO NO NO! OK, what do you think will happen now? Think chareidim will go to jail instead? Ever been to jail? You are going to have a very rude awakening.
BTW, I do not consider myself to be a Zionist. However, the hatred some of you have toward anyone who doesn’t agree with you is just plain wrong.
Kanoi (what a self righteous description!):Nothing personal, but if ifti99 disagrees with an attitude and the Gedolim support, I’m gonna go with the Gedolim.
Good for you. Tell me something Kanoi. Who, exactly is a “gadol”? Were they elected? Appointed? Or just someone whom you agree with?
If other rabbis (most, actually) and the Talmud believe that work is absolutely preferable than living off tzedakah, why would anyone believe otherwise?
These same gedolim were the ones advising Jews not to leave Europe during the 1930s when Jabotinsky begged them to leave.
One more thing. You criticize the state and every Jew who doesn’t think like you. Well, that’s your perogative, but don’t you feel just a wee bit hypocritical taking money from this same state and from these same Jews that you hate?
Chevron: “We need to keep things in balance. We should have a Yissoschor / Zevulin relationship. 50% of Klal Yisroel (and Israelis) should be learning all day and 50% should be working (and supporting the learners.)”
Great! I’ve worked all my life. I’d like to sit and learn for a couple of years. Will you agree to support me? Or were you only interested in people like me supporting you?
About time: Interesting commentary. However, I think you are a bit confused about “Fiscus Judaicus”. This was not started by the Romans to wipe out Torah. It was done as a retaliation against Jews, who revolted against Roman rule. Honestly, what would you expect? I’m not defending it, but this was a typical response by the victors in that time. I fail to see what this has to do with the draft. The chilonim want you to share the burden. You can’t understand that? Suppose they proposed that for one year, they don’t work or serve in the army, and you take their place. Would you agree? If not, why would you expect them to agree to the current situation?
Daas Yachid: D??????? ?? ?
…????????
??? ??? ???? ??? ??? ?????? ???? ????? ??? ???? ?? ???? ?????
Not sure what any of this has to do with my question. In any case, this entire sugya deals with those who denigrate Torah scholars. However, at the end of the sugya (which DY conveniently forgets to post), it states that the case of considering someone an apikores for this SPECIFICALLY refers to Menashe ben Chizkiyahu, whose deeds denigrated the Torah itself.
So much for your proof…..
Kanoi: No, it is preferable to live off perfectly legal government programs and learn full time than to work.
I totally totally disagree with this attitude on so many levels that I can’t even begin. All I will say is this: If you truly believe that what Hashem wants is for all Chareidi Jews to refuse to work (legally) and just live on tzedakah, we live in different worlds. I guess you can try to justify your decision any way you like, twisting and turning whomever supports this untenable position, but anyone who has more than a eighth grade education will realize that this is totally unsustainable. Do you realize that in Israel and America, the view of chareidi life gets more negative every day? All we see are people who demonstrate against other religious Jews in Ramat Bet Shemesh, shnooring money to marry off their children, and refusing to do anything to help other Jews other than themselves. Is it any wonder there is so much hostility against them? At some point, you are going to realize that not only is this lifestyle completely unsustainable, but goes completely against Hashem’s will. I’m sorry, but thats what most of non-chareidi Jews believe.
Your other comments like ” The Chareidim have just as much of a right to the land as the Zionists do. Would you be singing the same tune if the Chareidim passed a law that nobody could go to work?” are even more insane. Is that really what you want? Pass a law that no one should work? All you are doing is playing into every negative stereotype against you. Although it saddens me to see this, I was not surprised by the union of Bennett and Lapid. Your stance toward everytyhing non-chareidi has managed to turn even other religious Jews against you. So sad…….
bentch: “ifti99: chareidim lived in Eretz Yisroel before the zionists came or were even considering Uganda for their homeland. If anyone should leave, it is they. (And look around NY. A lot of chilonim have long emigrated.) This is besides the fact that no other country will accept a million Israeli citizens to move there.”
Your point is irrelevant. Many people lived in Israel before the chareidim. So what? Taking your analogy further, it would seem that the Native Americans should have absolutely no obligation to observe American law. They should just be able to attack and scalp their enemies, right? After all, they were here first.
The point is, it doesn’t matter who was there first. Governments and countries change hands throughout history. You can’t get out of the laws by claiming you were there first. Try making that argument in Austria in 1938 after the Ancsluss.
“You’re joking -aren’t you? Since when does a Medina based on Kefira have a Din of Malchus?!?!”
No, I’m serious. So, according to you, does any nation have a din of malchus? Do feel any obligation to pay taxes or observe the laws of the country you live in? Or not?
Daas Yachid: “As far as serving the state, if you mean State, then i’m sure by now you realize that the founding of a secular state in E.Y. is a very painful thing to us.
I don’t understand. So you don’t agree with the state. No one forces you to live there. This isn’t Russia, you can move. I doubt most of you were born before 1948, so the state was there when you were born. What does that have to do with obeying the law of the land? I thought you believed in dina d’malchusa dina. Perhaps you don’t?
Daas Yachid: “If you mean contributing to the welfare of its inhabitants, need I remind you how Chaza”l categorize one who doesn’t believe that lomdei Torah contribute?”
Yes, please remind me. I am aware that in Sefer Bereishis, Yaakov Avinu did things for the general population which were not even Jewish. Are you on a higher level than he was?
Did this guy disobey the gedolim?
no links
Kanoi: It is also fairly obvious that not one of the Tanaim, Amaraim, or Rishonim used electricity. The reason for this is also fairly obvious; in that day and age, it simply wasn’t possible. It also wasn’t possible to survive without going to work, so they worked. But today, if one is learning and can survive without working, why work?
With all due respect, do you understand how ridiculous you sound when you make such comments? The only reason you can live without working is not because you are supported by the community; rather, you are living off the backs of everyone who works. So, you are saying it is actually permissable and even preferred to live off charity than to work. I will tell you that this view completely goes against the Torah. I am not talking about some individual boy who is supported by his family. What you are saying is that is preferable NOT to work and live off everyone else! In the US, we call such people moochers and parasites.
Let’s take this a step further. What if everyone took your advice? How would anyone live??????
BTW, your comments about the medinah are just plain wrong. The state was established in 1948. If what you say about the Arabs is true, please explain the riots in 1920, 1929 and 1936 were about. Please also explain why all Ashkenazic Jews were barred from Yerushalyim for over 100 years in the 17th century. Please also explain the reason for the Arab pogroms in Hebron and Tzsfas in 1834, when Zionism as a movement did not even exist!
So, what you guys are saying is that the ideal lifestyle is not to work, not to serve the state in any capacity, and just live off the government and sit and learn all your life (or perhaps work off the books as well)?
Is that really what you believe??????
Thank you akuperma for proving my point! So, you are advocating that people work “off the books” such that they cheat the government out of taxes?
“If the government wanted most of the bnei yeshiva to be part of the economy, they could exempt them from the army (perhaps tied to being fathers, a grounds for exemption in many countries with conscription). “
Please give me a logical rational argument why a yeshiva student should be exempt from his duty to the state as opposed to anyone else. If everyone did what you suggest, there would be no army and no benefits as there would be no taxes to collect! You have aptly proven the gemara’s point: If you don’t learn a trade, you will eventually come to steal (in this case, from the government itself. The same government that these yeshiva boys seem to have no problem taking money from).
I have been following this thread for some time. There are some very good points made by several people. On the other hand, some of the views expressed here are somewhat like living in another world! I don’t think some people here actually understand how they are viewed by the vast majority of the population. There are 2 main points I would like to make:
1. Since when did it become acceptable for the majority of the male population not to work? I learn Daf Yomi, and it is pretty obvious that the vast majority of tanaim and amoraim held regular jobs. Rashi was a winemaker. Rambam was a doctor. All of a sudden, work is assur? In fact, so much so that chareidi girls in Israel are persuaded that it is much preferred for them to marry a kollel rather than a working man! Well, if you want to live in poverty, that’s fine, although the Germara teaches that one that does not teach his son a trade teaches him to steal (as he will have no other way of making a living). Instead, what happens today is that the vast majority of Chareidim simply take money from the government. All that does is make charedim look like parasites in the eyes of those that work for a living.
2. Then , to top it off, they absolutely refuse to serve in the army. So, let’s some up. If someone living in America absolutely refused to work in order to live on welfare, and then refused to serve in the army (if there were a draft), and refused to even do community service, what would you think? Welcome to the Obama world. I have to support these people and I resent that able bodied people don’t work. How do you think the Israeli working population views you?
Meanwhile, some people seem to think that since they were not in favor of the country, the govt has no right to make them serve in the army. Are you kidding me? If you lived in Egypt or Italy or Greece or any other country and they drafted you, do you really think you could refuse with the excuse that you are learning full time???? At the very least you would be imprisoned; you might be sentenced to death!
One more point. Some people have made the argument, “well, we don’t really care what the rest of the world thinks”. Let me remind you that in the last century, the Jews in Germany, Austria, Poland etc had the same POV, with disastorous results. The Meam Loez reminds us that the Jews in Mitzrayim had no idea what the Egytians felt about them, with the disastorous result that 4/5 of the population died there.
I’m not suggesting that anyone will die over this, chas v’shalom. However, I do think the chareidi community should do some real soul searching on whether Hashem really desires that living your life by refusing to work or take on communal obligations of the State is correct.