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apushatayid, the story is about the monkey. we do not see all aspects of the man with the yellow hat’s life, like who he dates and whatever… if one would stop focusing on the fact that he likes yellow, it is obvious that he is constantly doing chessed. he has many wonderful internal qualities that seem to be overlooked. We need to look beyond the physical here
I once dated a guy who likes yellow… it was a little awkward at first… but i got used it. It didn’t work out in the end for other reasons. But after that experience, I wouldn’t hesitate the next time a guy who likes yellow is suggested. it’s really not the biggest deal
I have not been in shidduchim long enough to be sensitive about my age… but i was very excited to see that ppl are discussing the issue of not getting back to a girl after asking her for information… It is the most frustrating thing when someone says “i have an idea for you, please send me your resume.” and then never ever mention it ever again! This has happened with quite a few of my coworkers! They pull me over to the side, ask me for my number, call me in the evening, drill me about what i’m looking for, tell me about some incredible guy they have in mind, give me their email address, text me 3 minutes later that they didn’t receive it, say “oh yeah i got it, thanks! I’ll be in touch!” and then….. i see them every single school-day after that for months and months and they never again mention a word about it and i’m just left WONDERING!! did she end up redting it? did the guy look into me? did she decide it wasn’t shayach? did the guy decide it wasn’t shayach? I can handle a guy saying “no”! I’d rather not go out with someone that isn’t my bashert! the rejection doesn’t hurt me… it’s that feeling of “what ever happened to that?” i’m just left wondering and hanging…. and every time i see that person, i wonder all over again! it doesn’t help that i see them every day!
so if we’re talking about redting shidduchim in a sensitive way, and not wanting to hurt either party… PLEASE get back to us if you mention something! It’s like starting a conversation and never finishing it- and it’s extremely uncomfortable!!
Thank you to all those that put in the effort! it is greatly appreciated!
I was trying to send a text to a friend asking her what she thinks we should get for another friend’s birthday… i accidentally sent it to the birthday girl
Are these “early stages” referring to just one date? sometimes a girl that is very makpid on tznius slips without realizing… I don’t know what the specific issue is, but let’s stick to the skirt issue as an example… a girl can be very makpid to cover her knees at all points. She has a great skirt that she knows covers her well, so she pulls it out of the cleaners bag, puts it on, retouches her hair an makeup and runs out the door… it’s very possible that it isn’t until she sits down in the car that she realizes that her skirt shrunk, or that she gained a few pounds since she last wore it and it doesn’t fit her the same way anymore… i’m not justifying the short skirt… i’m just saying that if you only saw this issue once -or even twice, give it another go! see if her wardrobe looks like this consistently
I don’t know what they are expressing in these jokes… and I do understand that this is a very serious matter that should not be joked about… and I do understand that many people would be offended by these jokes…
But I also understand that sometimes people make light of serious situations as a coping mechanism…
When I became an aunt at 13, my sister-in-law asked me if I wanted to be Aunt, Auntie, Tanta, Doda etc…. and I said “why can’t I just be Hodulashem?” She said that she called all her aunts and uncles by titles, and felt it was better for her children’s chinuch to do the same… She claimed that it’s ok for a 4 year old to call her 17 year old aunt by her first name, but when my niece would be 17 and I would be 30, it wouldn’t be so respectful anymore… I don’t remember what title I chose to make her happy, but long story shorter, my nieces and nephews usually just call me by my name and I prefer it that way! But hey, I’m only in my 20’s …I’ll let you know if I feel disrespected when I’m 30
seminaries are constantly changing… the sem i went was mentioned in an above post, but I know for a fact that it has gone through many changes since i was there, and what I know would no longer be helpful! I think that the best way to get information is to speak to someone who was in the sem in the last year or two.
good luck!!
oh never mind- i found the thread! I gotta catch up
Where was Lior’s original comment posted? I want to understand the context of the conversation…
getrealnow, did you end up shaving??
di amar- huh?
in reference to your minor point, let me clarify… after the first date, i came home repulsed by his appearance, but he was a mentch and there wasn’t anything else besides his appearance that made me want to say no to a second date, so knowing that looks can “grow on you” I decided to go out a second time. the second and third date went really well, and as i learned more about him, I liked his personality more. Yet after each date I was really torn because I really enjoyed my time with him, yet his looks simply weren’t “growing” on me, and I couldn’t imagine marrying a guy that I wasn’t attracted to! I was nervous to continue dating him, because i knew that if my perception of his appearance didn’t improve, I would eventually end things, and I didn’t wanna take him for a ride… after speaking to a mentor, i realized that the appearance factor could have been affected by the beard, and that seeing him without it might help things. With that in mind, I decided to “give it another shot” after tisha b’av. I specifically didn’t write “a second date” after tisha b’av.
Turned out that my perception of his appearance did not change when he was clean shaven, but my decision to end it was actually based on some other factors that I learned about him through conversation on that final date. (As far as giving him another shot BECAUSE he hadn’t shaved, I meant that I would have ended it even sooner had there not been that hope for improvement.)
Now, that was MY experience, and I do realize after writing it all and thinking it through all over again (it’s been a while!) that with all those details it might not provide support to the shaving vs not-shaving discussion after all!
I guess my bottom line for the OP is that a bit of stubble due to the time of year did not negatively affect my decision to see him again.
Patur: i guess i didn’t choose the right words to express myself… i didn’t mean it from a halachik standpoint… I meant that because I understood that perhaps i’d feel better about his appearance after he’d shaved, I gave it another go… had he shown up clean shaven on the first date, I wouldn’t have had any hope that my perception of his appearance would have a chance to improve… I know this might sound confusing and backhanded because i left out many other details about my experience with this particular guy that have nothing to do with this topic… My decision to go out with him again was based on many factors,(we went out a few times over the three weeks) as was my decision to end it… meaning that the beard was not the make it or break it over here!!
Perhaps i did not need to weave in my personal experience to make my point which is that if the ONLY thing a girl is unhappy with about a guy on a first date is circumstantial facial hair, she should be understanding that it’s a temporary thing and she should continue to get to know him. If everything else goes well, she’ll eventually get to see him without the beard…
I once went out with a guy during the three weeks and he looked terrible in a beard!! He was a nice guy but i was TOTALLY NOT attracted to him, and the extra facial hair certainly didn’t help matters… However, i really did appreciate his adherence to halacha. I decided to give it another shot knowing that the next time we would meet would be after tisha b’av and he would be clean shaven… it turned out that he wasn’t for me, but it was BECAUSE he didn’t shave that I actually agreed to go out with him again.
precisely… this thread is called working boys, not heavy girls…
absolutely not!!!
Because I am a girl…
Would I date a boy that is not thin?
absolutely yes. I’ve gone out with more than one in that category, for more than one date.
I can’t exactly understand the question altogether, because I don’t see how size influences ones’ inner beauty… But what I REALLY want to understand is why this question is specific to “working singles”?
In honor of my continued frustrating dating experiences, I hereby BUMP this thread!
Have any of my fellow “working singles” seen the light at the end of the tunnel?
DaasYochid, it might not make sense to us that one would get frustrated over this innocent terminology… But I do understand why someone over the age of 40 would be pained by the idea that a 23 year old is being called “older” …and although no offense was ever intended by all the innocent people, i think it’s ok for one to express how hearing this affects them. we all need a little venting time, no?
i just want to correct myself- it hasn’t been 4-5 years of frustration and heartache! They started off eager and excited… but as the years go on and their friends move, it begins to get frustrating
I believe that it’s all relative…. I’m single and nearing my 22nd birthday, and although many of my friends are already purchasing double strollers, I do not consider myself to be old! However…. When my 19 year old co-workers (who were my campers a few years back) walk in sporting sheitels, I do feel old in a sense…
and when I see my co-workers who are in their mid-thirties and are still single, my perspective obviously changes….
As far as what is actually considered an “older” single, I can completely understand why someone in haifagirl’s place is offended by 23 being labeled as older! in my opinion, “older” is not before 25… Yet in defense of those 23 year olds, as young as they are in comparison to the singles in their 30’s, 40’s, 50’s and beyond, they are also in a challenging position… Although they are young, have a whole life ahead of them, and should really just have a little “patience”, we should be mindful of the fact that they have been in shidduchim for the last 4-5 years. No, it hasn’t been 20 years. But every girl enters shidduchim with the same anxious butterflies and hope for their future… some marry the first guy, some get lots of dates, some get dates here and there, some go on dates every week and just can’t find the one, and some wait and wait by the silent phone for months- and then years… Each year that passes makes the heart a little heavier. These 23 year olds are not “old”, but they have spent the last 4-5 years attending vort after vort and wedding after wedding, 4-5 years of planning friends’ bridal showers, 4-5 years of frustration and heartache… eventually the questions of “when” turn into the question of “if” they’ll merit to meet their intended and start their own homes… bH, I am not personally feeling a sense of despair because believe that when the time is right for me, it will happen. but I do know girls that are in their young 20’s and are the only ones left of their circle of friends… and they are losing hope.
I am not trying to undermine the pain of haifagirl and others in her situation! I just want to point out that as new as us young ones are to this struggle, the struggle is still there, as is the fear of the unknown…
May all of klal yisroel be zoche to their personal yeshuos bmheira b’yomainu!
DaasYochid, I must say that that was an awesome comeback!
i’m the only lefty in my fam! not sure why i always took pride in my left-handedness…. I decided that my artsy and creative side was due to my right brain dominance… but then again, i’m often compared to my brother who is extremely artsy and creative and he’s a righty so go figure!
this is where we implement the good ol’ “I” messages;
“I feel confused, because I thought we agreed that this is not what we wanted in our home, can we talk about it?”
“I feel uncomfortable bringing that into our home; I’d like to discuss this before we continue to do so, can you tell me your take on the matter?”
wife should express how it makes HER feel, and then ask him to discuss his take on the matter. they have to communicate respectfully
Little Froggie: it is not only you… i was quite perturbed by it! couldn’t believe that A. they chose that picture and B. it was advertised on YWN!
When my head hits the pillow after a successful day!
i thought u knew it all…
jk! Mazel Tov! May you be zocheh to build a bayis ne’eman b’yisroel.
Sorry, can’t help in the marriage department yet
OURtorah, I really appreciate the insight in your response! thank you!
When i say i’m looking for a “learner/earner” i mean that I really want a learning boy but I don’t have the financial means to support… so I want someone that’s a real ben torah, sticks to daily sedarim, and is connected to a rebbi, and also works for a parnassah. When i had this discussion on a date, the guy told me not to use the term “learner/earner” cuz ppl will get the wrong impression… i don’t know what impression he meant though… so i said “what are you? you learn and you earn! so what does that make you?” and he responded “ugh, u sound like my mother” (no we did not go out again!) so i’m still waiting for someone to tell me what everyone else means when they say “learner/earner” and what i’m supposed to “label” the kind of guy i’m looking for…
and in regard to whether it’s learner/earner or earner/learner, i used to debate this all the time… my mother holds that it’s “learner/earner” because the learning comes first! But I thought that it should be “earner/learner” because the adjective comes before the noun so he IS a learner and “earner” is just a way to describe him… what do u all think?
I think it’s even worse when really good friends say “I was talking about you with my random friend that never met you and she has someone perfect for you! Oh, he’s like way older than you and isn’t looking for the same thing as you… you interested?”
like, what???
Logician: Well based on the guys I’ve gone out with who were supposedly looking to live a “Torah centered life” but couldn’t stop talking about how much they dislike yeshiva and wanted to focus more on their career, I am definitely hearing you.
hakol b’yidei shomayim… iyH everyone at the right time.
Question: Are you a regular follower of the coffee room? Or did someone say “Hey, Rocky! They’re talking about u in the coffee room!” and u came to check it out?
I’m convinced!
uh oomis, just wanna point out that Yashi and Pember asked the question himself lol
Syag, once again, I really appreciate your chizuk! It’s really my dating experience that makes me despair more than anonymous posts… that is why I have an easier time relating to Logician’s perspective… But I am certainly not disregarding your comments! Just waiting to meet the real, authentic, frum male you speak of lol.
It’s frustrating on so many levels… My older brothers are all in kollel or are rebbeim and I share their hashkafos and value their lifestyle and wish to have Torah in my home as they do… (they have truly beautiful homes -i don’t mean in a physical sense!) But because I am female, I need to present big bucks in order to marry someone with those hashkafos… Not because the bochurim out there are selfish and greedy- but because if the guy’s gonna be learning, the money’s gotta come from somewhere! So i’ve gone out with guys that are learner-earners… but their hashkafos and midos are just not up to par with the ben Torah I want to lead my home… and as we keep discussing- it doesn’t mean that he doesn’t exist! This is just a frustrating tekufa in my life (and I’m sure in many other girls’ lives…) and hopefully one day I will look back and laugh for every feeling an ounce of despair…
Logician, I wish that a couple years of learning was feasible for me… but at this point, i don’t yet have my degree, and most of my salary is going towards college tuition… that is why at this stage of my life I need someone that is working. I don’t know what Hashem has in “mind” for me, but I don’t think I’ll be able to “change my tune” until I get my degree (another 2 years)… I hope to find the level of frumkeit I’m looking for in a husband before then, but based on your perspective, I see that I need to raise the level on my davening… which i should be doing regardless…
(sigh…)
syag lchochma, I appreciated your chizuk 🙂 thanks.
I guess it doesn’t really matter how many guys like this each person knows… all i need is one
Logician, I hear what you are saying about the effect of having less learning… brings me back to my thought process from years ago; If a guy truly values his learning time, why isn’t he in the bais medrash? But I can’t afford to support someone that is learning full time… So does that mean I won’t ever find someone that will be my partner in building home of Torah that has all the basic physical necessities? I need a real ben Torah that can help me with the financial aspect of building a home… But i really want his heart in the bais medrash… so why isn’t he there??? see- my thoughts go around in circles, and I wonder if the kind of guy I’m looking for actually exists…
i don’t think the shadchanim are to blame! I just don’t think there are enough shadchanim out there that are known to work with us…
friend in flatbush, thanks for bringing back this thread! was about to go search for it and bump it!!
when i saw “shpiel” I actually thought this might be fun… until i saw the word ketchup and discovered that I had accidentally clicked on a ridiculous ketchup post for the first time!!! I can’t believe i fell in the ketchup trap!!
Dunno: same here! It’s my friends and coworkers that are generally setting me up! And I’ve even had to wait on line to go out with certain guys like Adam3 because they had a “list” of girls…
networking is definitely important!
shishi. i do NOT agree
“I would describe a top notch girl as solidly hashkofik Bais Yaakov girl, willing to support a husband because she sees the chashivus of Torah.”
solidly hashkofik? yes.
sees the chashivus of Torah? yes.
willing to support a husband? that makes a top notch girl??? no! what if there’s a solidly hashkofik bais yaakov girl that is not CAPABLE of supporting a husband… let’s say her parents are not in a financial position to help her out to that extent, and she is still working on her degree, and her current earnings are going toward her college tuition?
a top notch girl is someone that is willing to let her parents empty their pockets for x amount of years because she sees the chashivus hatorah? what about midos? what about kibud av v’eim? what about acting like a mentch?? what about chessed? what about living like a yid!! what about implementing all that torah learning into your life and into your children?!?!
I have a friend who’s father agreed to support for 2 years… she got married, moved to israel, and guess how she and her husband spent their evenings?? watching movies!!!!!!! I know that that is not the norm… but my point is that in my opinion, you can have a top notch girl that has solid hashkafos but is not “willing” to support a full time learner… but I don’t think it’s very “top notch” if a girl is someone “willing” to support and does not live according to those hashkafos… willing to support is based on having the resources to be able to support…
The girls that I know that have Daddies with $$$ and have their knees covered only because their shaitels are longer than their skirts, were very willing to support because they “saw chashivus hatorah” when they were dating… top notch? i think not.
that being said, I don’t think there’s any basis or any point in judging or ranking people in their level of yiddishkeit… and of course my opinions are a product of my experiences… and of course this post turned into a venting session for me because no, I am not capable of supporting financially… But I do want my home to be built on Torah and I hope to support my husband in his learning in every other way that I can…
what’s a top of the notch girl?
yawn… I’m getting tired of all this arguing. Let the expert psychologists/psychiatrists treat the patients that come to them in the best way that their expert knowledge sees fit… let the expert patients seek the help that they need from the expert psychologists/psychiatrists that uses the method of psychoanalysis/cbt/meds etc etc… that works best for them! Why in the world are you still discussing this?? to prove a point?? nobody seems to be very agreeable here so why don’t we all just agree to disagree and move on!!
adam3, it’s not simply the attitude towards working guys that needs some adjusting, it’s the attitude towards the concept in general… I can’t believe that I have to defend my decision to marry someone that will help me provide for my children!!! and i’m not talking about providing designer clothing… i’m talking about the basics!
I have heard that people shave their hair off so they don’t have to deal with the trauma of clumps of it falling out in their hands… I actually heard a story of a teenage girl that made a little “upsherin” party out of it to make it a less scary idea…
When ppl ask me what kind of boy i’m looking for, I groan inside cuz I’ve grown so tired of the reactions I get when I tell ppl that I’m looking for a learner-earner…
some examples of what i’m dealing with: (these are ACTUAL responses that i got!!)
“really? so interesting… I really have a much easier time picturing you with a serious learner”
“what? why? you want him to work from day ONE?? your parents can’t even give you one penny???”
“oh… so you want someone that can really learn and is working… so we have to find you an older bachur!”
“so, what if your parents suddenly found a way to support… would you change your mind?”
So now this is confusing! see, ppl *assume* that I am (what squeak refers to as) an “elite”, but I actually want to have divrei torah AND food when I’m sitting at my shabbos table, and I can’t see myself being a functional wife and mother if we’re living on one income and it’s all coming from me!! so I am actually a “working girl” cuz i’m looking for a learner-earner, and so I suddenly fall into the “non-elite” category and people can’t come to terms with it! I believe that there must be men out there that can and do learn on an elite level, are ovdei Hashem, have yiras shomayim, are baal midos, have a rebbi they are close to, etc… but people perceive them as “non-elite” because they ALSO want to have food on their table (and a table for their food, and an apartment for their table etc…) and recognize that a good, functioning wife and mother can’t have the sole responsibility of parnassa!!
So I was thrilled to see Adam’s post!! I’m happy that guys like you do exist!!! Maybe one day I’ll actually meet one…
BUMP