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I don’t get it.
It seems there are problems with people not being tznius enough so the complaint is
“it’s taught too much”.
So the answer is what?
Teach it less and all those who do not follow it properly will suddenly start doing it?
Will people learn more Torah if it is taught less?
Will Loshon Hara decrease if fewer people talk about the laws regarding it?
What kind of backwards, upsidedown plan, are we supposed to follow here?
It is one thing for an individual to like a fast pace.
But when he is a boss and demands it from his workers and they (or at least some of them) have a hard time with it and it makes them miserable, that could be a different story.
I think Dr Peppers idea is the best.
Put in your letter, that if he does not stop, then you WILL go to his manager or the store owner.
Or perhaps don’t say that in the letter but keep it as an option in case the letter does not help.
You also might consider contacting HIS Rav, if you can find out who that is.
Well the OP asked a question and then all those who apprantly have a problem with those who are “too machmir” jumped down the throats of anyone who defended holding by C’Y’ going so far as to strongly imply if not outright ‘say’ that all the Rabbonnim held that they were “the same” and that anyone who did not agree was automatically holding themselves as ‘better’ then those who drink C’S’.
This reminds me of non Jews who hate Jews, for think they are better then non Jews, because Jews are “the Chosen People”.
I agree that at the time of tragedy R’L’ the people it happened should not be given mussar.
What really bothers me is that if G-d forbid, something happens to say for example, Plony ben Plony, and people say something like;
“How could this have happened to such a wonderful person who was so good and kind”.
And Lets say for example, I happen to know this person, and in his case, I personally know he was far from being good, let alone a Tzaddik, about whom a new Tehillim, should be written.
In that case, I want to scream out, “I know this guy and he ruined my life with Loshon Hara, and cheated me in business by not paying me wages, he owed me!!!”.
That people would think of him, as so good, and then use him as an example to emulate, and learn from, is something that I think spreads evil and lengthens the Galus.
I saw recently a man comming into his house and a woman was holding the door open for him and he was making no effrot to get inside very fast at all nor was she rushing him in.
She was standing there talking to him wearing some kind of blouse that did not cover her arms at all.
Her shoulders and every part of her arms below them, were totally exposed.
And the guy wore a hat and beard, as I recall.
Now, if that was his wife and she wore that only around the house, that might be one thing, but she was exposing herself in public (even though technically speaking, she was still “inside”) where anyone walking or driving by, could easily see her.
“So are you saying that Rav Nachman, Rav Huna, and Rabba bar Avuah were not frum enough since they did not consider themselves to be a Baal Nefesh?”;;;;;;;;;;;;
So are you saying that Rabba was ‘too frum’?
If not following Rav Nachuman and Rav Huna etc… is to claim that the person not following them is saying “They are not frum enough” then doing the opposite must by that logic, be saying that Rabba was being more machmir then he had a right to be, even when it was apparantly, a case of actual possible issues of kashrus and not just a matter of being “more machmir”.
;;;;;;;;;;”And TMB, what besides CY does a Baal Nefesh abstain from? And is a Baal Nefesh MACHMIR on HIMSELF all the time?
The above paragraph certainly seems to be contradicting the paragraph below, when someone is accused of forbidding what is allowed and I believe similar wording is used in some Halachas, to say, people are not allowed to do such things.
It certainly sounds like quite a harsh criticism when the next paragraph seems to be against criticising those who do not follow
things that the criticisers themselves, do.
;;;;;;;;;”So according to Rav Moshe, if this is the definition of who you are, you should be machmir. But says, Rav Moshe, regular milk of dairy companies are muter without any doubt and he says that one should not criticize anyone from drinking it. “;;;;;;;
This is what this thread looked like in the beginning;
An excuse to criticise those who drink only C’Y’ while at the time, demanding better treatment from those they criticise, to not do the same critricising, of those who drink C’S’
“I can criticise you, all I want, but don’t you dare criticise me”.
And nothing in any of these posts has done anything to convince me, that my first impressions of this thread, were wrong, in any way, shape or form.
Sure I call tell them the guy on the net ‘said’ that, but still it is someone on the net, saying he has the inside scoop.
Till now, I hadn’t had any reason to question the accuracy of their stories.
But if it is at a Shabbos table as it has been sometimes in the past, I will Bli Nadir, try to remember to ask them.
Of course all I will be able to say was that someone on the internet ‘said’ it could almost always be lowered just with meds and they might say something like; “Anyone can say anything on the internet”.
If I am overhearing two people on a bus talking about it, as has happened in other cases, it will be none of my business and I do not plan on injecting myself into their conversation.
Health It’s not that common because the medical establishment does not promote those solutuons at least not publically where those like me would hear about it.
If the cholesterol is so often lowered just with meds why do I hear so many people talking about how their doctor tried this and that and ‘nothing is working’?
Charliehall have you heard of the particular study about Alzheimers I am referring to that I believe tgook place in Europe perhaps about 6 years ago (when it happened is just a guess, could be longer or shorter), or so?
Also about Cholesterol I have never heard of any drugs that anyiobne can take that lower a high colesterol level down to safe levels if they are very high to start.
The best I ever heard of lower it a few points and that is the best they can do.
And for that, there are many side effects and restrictions, I have heard.
Obviously if I said where and who were doping people up so unprofessionally my post would be deleted as Loshon Hara, so I cannot get away with saying it, but just because you haven’t heard of such a thing, hardly proves it is not happening.
I personally know of cases where meds were increased when they were not working and they just cused more problems and were not stopped.
Further I know of places where the “professionsals” had to be onboard with the unofficial policies of keeping people doped up no matter how bad it was for them of they would be fired in such a way that they had extremly little chances of getting those in charge of these places in any kind of legal trouble.
Besides that, it is well known, that most infections people get happen inside the hospitals, these days and there are an overwhelming number of cases where limbs were wrongly amputated
when the patient simply came in for a biopsy, or something like that.
hello99 those like you are the ones doing the harping, and saying the difference is irrelevent is just like saying the two things are the same and that is false.
If indeed Miller and Migdal are both owned by the same Jew, that still does not mean they are both watched by a Jew during wahtever (or all of) the processes for which it must be watched to be catagorized as C’Y’ as opposed to C’S’.
If it was ‘just semantics’ then anyone could go rav shopping and hold only by the most makeil opinions in each catagory.
Health, I don’t know because I found an excellent Chiropractor who is also a medical doctor, and he never said the reason was that Chiropractic was so bad at one time.
Also in the 1970’s a paramadic truck rearended me and I went to a chiropractor and did not hear at that time either that doctors were afaraid of bad chiropractors.
There were and still are plentry of bad doctors too and they used to take a bad doctor and move him to some other hospital far away (like a different state) where he could start all over without any patients knowing how bad he had been at the previous hospital.
It seemed to be like Priests accused of doing certain things to some of their younger parishoners who were simply moved to another Parish.
Sure the ‘official goal’ is to cure, so how come every medicine is so full of side effects, that often the cure is worse then the disease?
How about people who have said that they lowered their cholesterol more by natural means then any medicine could do?
Are they all mistaken?
Are they lying?
The first generations lived several hundred years.
Even Avroham Avinu and his family lived well over 100 years.
As things got more industrialized and further away from natural remedies, life spans got much shorter.
Now thanks to modern medicine life spans are getting longer again.
But that is no proof whatsoever that the natural remedies that were used thousands of years ago, are no good.
There is a modern saying usually applied to politics;
Follow the money.
When someone advocates for or supports anything, that has economic or political ramifications, who stands to gain from it?
Many Doctors for many years (possibly still today) were dead set against the Chiropractic approach to fixing back pain and problems.
They get much money from operations where the spine is fused together permanently reducing a persons flexibility.
Chiropractic costs far less can often fix the same problems and the patient goes away with more flexibility not less.
But the hospital does not get $3000 per day for the use of the room and the doctor does not get $50,000 (or more) for the operation, after which, he enjoys the rest of the day at the Golf Course while the patients once back at work have to work overtime (if they can get it) to spend years paying off the bill.
They market heartburn pills when simply drinking water during the meal will eliminate the heartburn before it starts.
I know from experience I used to get horrible heartburn till I started drinking more water during meals.
But again no one was ever admitted to a hospital for failing to get heartburn.
The more and longer someone is hospitalized, G-d forbid, the more the hospitals and doctors rake in the big bucks.
Follow the money….
The same is true for lawyers.
The lawmakers will never ever vote in a flat tax system and simplify everyones lives and make living cheaper while still providing plenty of tax dollars to run government, because
the lawyers make billions from all the impossble to understand and conflicting tax laws.
70% of all US Congresspeople and Senators, are lawyers.
Follow the money….
“Rav Dovid and Rav Reuven Feinstein, Rav Moshe’s two sons, paskin that one may purchase Chalav Stamm milk L’chatchila; so who’s got bigger shoulders? “
Did they use those exact words?
What would they say if someone said “so, they are the same, then.”?
I was with soemone whio teaches for a living and he was telling stories to some of his students and those stories were interesting enough to just about make the night go by (with some niodding off here and there on my part, but I started off already very tired because I had to work that day and had no time to ‘nap’, before Yom Tov started.)
The morning davening does not change much, not even from Nusach to another.
People do not say “I’m tired of the same Shma and the same Shmona Eseray, every day”.
Why is it that those who engage in it (even if its only one or two who do it), never get tired of gossip, but when it comes to things like Tznius, everyone gets tired of it?
OK as long as we are clear that saying “fulfills the requirement” is not saying “they are exactly the same”.
A Yugo will get you to work, so will a Ferrari, they both fulfill the requriment of getting you to work, but no one would say they were “the same”.
When you say “Reb Moshe” is that Rav Moshe Feinstein (I just want to be absolutely clear, on that)?
If so, did he say C’S’ and C’Y’ were “equivelent” in those exact words?
Did he make it clear he held that there was absolutely no difference between them?
You say “No, not exactly!”
Then what “EXACTLY”, are you saying?
People from other religions (like the Conservatrive and the Reform, religions) also have leaders they call “Rabbi”.
I don’t call them that, but those who follow those religions, do.
Someone like a Baal Teshuvah who has started doloing mitzvohs and
in most ways is trying to follow Torah and do mitzvohs (not turning on lights on Shabbos, not eating in places that obviously are not kosher studying and learning all they can especially about practical halacha, etc…) but who still might not be doing something because they do not know better,
or because they can’t (like a woman who just decided to follow Torah but has no clothes that are properly tznius, and no money to go out and buy any)
In my opinion, I would still consider them frum (or at least sincerly trying to be), even if they are not yet doing everything so properly.
On the other hand; Someone who knows better and still does things wrong (like one person I knew who was considered to have been the best learner and most knowledgeable about Torah of anyone his age in his neighborhood, but he was also the biggest baal Loshon Hara
I had ever met) in my opinion, is not someone I would call ‘frum’.
Cherrybim I did not put words in your mouth.
I just pointed out that no Rav has ever to my knowledge said that
C’S and C’Y’ are “the same”.
When you ask ‘what is the difference’ (and I have already said I am just trying to follow the rabbionnim even if I do not know exactly what the difference is, but Rav Gronish has specifically said they are not the same and no other Rav, to my knowledge, has ever said they were) what can you possibly be trying to get people to think, ‘other then’, “they must be the same”.
You asked what is the difference, I did not “put it in your mouth”.
I can only try; thanks.
“What’s the difference if the OU attests that certain milk is kosher or if Chaim Yankel (who we believe to say he saw the cow milked), claims it’s kosher? Once milk has hashgacha that verifies the milk’s kosher status, in my opinion, that milk is chalav yisroel. “
From everything I heard in life and in this thread even Rav Moshe (or any other Rav from everything I have heard) never said
“they are exactly the same” .
And if anyone claims that pointing this out is “putting anyone down” they are just trying to embarrass people into not having a fully open and honest discussion.
I do not know enough to fully know what the exact difference is.
I just try to follow the Rabbonnim.
Those who want to claim the Rabbonnom are wrong, let them go argue with the Rabbonnim.
(AFAIK, CYLOR)……… What does this mean/indicate?
I do not think not saying Loshon Hara is more important then some other things, is any kind of “personal attack” on anyone.
I think it is discussing the issue in many cases.
Most threads where not following a certain halacha (whatever halacha is brought up in each particualr thread) , is brought up
the underlying problem is that it brings down the level of Yiddishkeit in any community where it happens.
Loshon Hara will do that, far faster and more insidiously, then just about anything else.
Lets say for example; Someone is talking about achdus and why there may not be as much of it as there should.
One of the biggest and most obvious reasons is because of Loshion Hara.
And the effects of it get very personal, if someone loses a job or shidduch from it, of course it’s extremly personal.
But bringing it up is not necessarily “an attack” on anyone.
It is just brought up as part of the discussion.
Yitayningwut so are you paskening that C’Y’ is “too high” a chumra for the average person who is not a big scholar, to hold by?
SJSinNYC I hope not but then it would nice to have some clarification, which is all I am asking for.
Someone posted;
Excerpt…”There is no question that taaivos are an issue. However, the Muslim response to that is to put women in a chador or burquah, and only allow her eyes to show. So maybe the problem is with the man, and not the woman. Maybe men need to learn more self-control. I love the smell of a BLT, but I am not going to eat it.”
So should we say the Chochimim were wrong G-d forbid, to assur swimming and horseback riding on Shabbos?
Since I remember being taught they were not Assur D’Orisa but the Rabbonnnim assur’d them, because of making and breaking.
What I mean by making and breaking is;
In the case of swimming they were worried that people would ‘make’ a raft and so they assured swimming altogether.
In the case of horseback riding they were afraid someone might ‘break’ off a stick from a tree to hit the horse to make it go faster so they assured riding.
I could argue that I would not do those things and let those who would, learn to control themselves, but it’s not “my problem” and
thus I should be able to ride and swim all I want, even on Shabbos.
I do not get the idea of an excuse that someone is ‘struggling with it’.
They either wear tznius or they don’t, what is “the struggle”?
What about Loshon Hara which I remember reading somewhere that there were 3 mitzvohs that everyone has to struggle with everyday and one of those is L’H’.
Yet I have never seen a heter for saying it, based on everyone having to “struggle with it”.
I recently heard from Rav Gronish that the other G’dolim were still looking into it and had not come to a conclusion at least about one particular fish from China or some similar “wild” area.
Anyway I think I heard him say thay all agree that farm raised fish or anything with a a good hescher is no problem.
I could be wrong so no one should rely on what I post here I’m just putting out ideas for anyone who wants to, to check up on.
bein_hasdorim, what I am asking is not if there are some that are very ‘frum’ and excellent places to daven.
I know there are.
I am asking if any of them anywhere are not proper places for a frum Jew.
Out of all Young Israel places everywhere, is there a single one anywhere, that might be a problem halachically, for someone to daven in?
To put it another way, does the sign saying “Young Israel” automatically guarantee, that it always is by definition, a kosher shule to daven in, always and everywhere without question, under any circumstances?
Anonymous555 since you have said you think ‘gee a moron’ has so much common sense how about telling us the proof for his claim that being machmir in one area, automatically means being maikel, somewhere else?
Yitayningwut so you are talking about chumras that someone isn’t holding by.
What about someone who has been holding by them for many years already?
Are you saying they should go “down” (for lack of a better word) from them?
anonymous555, what would you then have said to the R’ Abuchatzera who would never daven with someone, who had no beard?
He did not say he would daven only with big scholars who could quote Zohar and what beard means.
He would daven with the simplest most unknowledgeable Jew but he had to have a beard which obviously means he did not think that
it was wrong or foolish for “an am haaretz” to ‘have’ a beard.
Yitayningwut; even if we pasken from the Gemarra when the S’A’ does not say anything about a certain thing, in the case of Cholov Yisroeal vs C’S’ it certainly has what to say so at least in that case it would seem to me that we would go by the S’A’ and not directly from the Gemarra.
What exactly is a Baal Nefesh?
I always wonder about the ‘free’ testing for heart disease and stroke and other physical ailments they offer these ‘free tests’ for.
It might be great for some people to have preventative medicine.
But what is the point, for those who might be told they are at risk, but they can’t afford the treatment?
With some of these aggressive drivers, it’s not so much about getting there faster as it is about showing off.
When I was a teenager I worked for a short time for a company that
did house to house soliciting for the people t meet with a company salesman to pitch their product (siding, an extra thick longer lasting painting, for houses).
One day there was no room in the car for all of us who were going to go knocking on doors to get to the area we were to be working that day so I had to follow them in my own car.
They drove down the road at breakneck speed swerving into and out of traffic and I could barely keep up not loosing them.
Finally when we got there the arrogant driver said “I had to slow down for you, you are just not a real driver”.
It was all about him being Mr “Indy 500, race car driver”, not about getting to work any faster and he didn’t care who elses lives he put in danger and thought his own was as safe as if he were in bed since he was
“so good” and thought it would have been impossible for him to ever make a mistake and cause an accident.
yitayningwut, what about the idea that we do not pasken from the Gemarra?
Also (and I am just asking since I truly do not know) are Rav Moshes sons considered rabbonnim just as great as their father?
Besides that question it seems not understandable that they would expect people to go by what they personally do and yet when asked about it say ‘it’s not your business’.
It would seem like in this context it would be ‘our business’ if we are supposed to learn halachas and psakim from it.
Also I am simply tryingh to learn and understand not judge others by where they hold as long as what they hold is Al Pi Halacha.
If they follow halacha fine, if not I need to know not to learn from them or to be influenced to do the same.
Since Young Israel was brought up (not by me) let me ask;
They may not be from the Reform religion, but are any from the Conservative religion?
I do not know, I am just asking.
D a; Yes I understand now, thanks for the explanation.
I do not know what halacha says but if there are such obvious violations of Shabbos going on, I think I would stay away from that shule.
In my personal opinion, someone who openly violates any mitzvoh
(like saying Loshon Hara, when they clearly know what they are saying is assur, and they make excuses for it, or if they wear untznius clothes like the Halachly forbidden ‘slit’, at the bottom of some skirts and dresses and have been living with frumkeit long enough that they clearly should know better, or were clearly told and refuse to change) is not “Frum”.
Cherrybim; To clarify;
You posted; “Years ago EVERYONE, including Rav Gornish, accepted and used the “Big Five” hashgachos”………..”especially since his Yeshiva and his family did”
#1 Where did you get this information from, how do you know it’s all true?
#2 What are these “Big Five” hashgachos”
#3 If the Rav once relied on them, those in charge of them were most likely not the same people overseeing those hasghachos now.
Perhaps the Rav does not rely on those who over see them now like he did with others he may have known personally and relied on his personal knowledge of their integrity.
Why can’t this or something similar be true?
You posted; “…so we have every right to assume that Rav Moshe did also, especially since his Yeshiva and his family did”
Where does Shulchan Aurich state clearly that we have the right to make these assumptions that you say, we “have the right”, to make?
This thread along with a few others is highlighted in darker background and the word “sticky” is next to it.
What does it mean to be “sticky”.
I used that word once to indicate my post might have been very crotroversial or uncomfortable to talk about.
Is that what it means here?
If not, then what does it mean here?
Please someone, explain.
Thanks in advance.
For me personally, I only heard about it, from this thread.
Before that, I did not know it existed.
cherrybim posted;
hereorthere – “Unlike you, I did not ‘assume’ anything.”
Years ago EVERYONE, including Rav Gornish, accepted and used the “Big Five” hashgachos; so we have every right to assume that Rav Moshe did also, especially since his Yeshiva and his family did. ;;
My response;
Please tell me where I can find such a halacha in Shulchan Aurich?
Also please tell me where you have this info that he and his family for sure used all those hescherim.
Also are you saying it is impossible that any quality or people that he might have relied on, has/have changed since then, in those hescherim?
yitayningwut
Doesn’t Torah teach us that it has “70 faces” IE…Ways to Darshan it out?
I just thought of it in what could possibly be one of those ways.
Also that story was probably not about Cholov Yisroael, it might have been about learning Zohar about which there are many warnings of who should and who should not learn it.
Also it does not say that any Rav had paskened that if given a choice people should be machmir and he was following any Rav.
To go from that case to our situation, and apply that we are wrong to be machmir is something I think a Rav would have pasken.
I do not know what “b’shas hadchak” means.
I did not ask in those words from Rav Gronish if C’S’ was
“mutar gamur” but when he told me it wasn’t “the same” that did not seem to indicate it was “mutar gamer” (of course I’m guessing here, but it seems to me to be a logical guess).
You posted ; “and so I heard first hand besheim R’ Dovid and R’ Reuven – the sons of R’ Moshe. And I posted this more than once on the thread, so you must not have been paying attention.”
My response; First of all, before this post that I am responding to I never saw the term “mutar gamer” in this thread. If it was there, and I missed it I am sorry but I do not remember seeing it so I doubt you could have said it, many times.
Second; Are you saying that Rav Moshes sons paskened in his name that one was not allowed to be machmir in holding by Cholov Yisroeal and that they said so, in those words?
“CY is not a chumra. CS is a heter. CY is l’chatchila”
Is esentially, what Rav Gronish told me.
He did not use the word Chumra or heter, he said that CY was L’Chatchila and other relied on the psak by Rav Moshe which sounds like it was a heter, they relied on even though he did not use the word, heter.
But he clearly did use the word L’Chatchila in saying that C’Y’ most certainly was.