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What do you mean “objectively”? Hair is erva. How is a hair (erva) covering that looks exactly like the erva it is covering any more tznius than a bossom (erva) shirt covering that is designed to picture the erva IT is covering?
Secondly, how is a sheitel that looks exactly like the erva it is covering anymore tznius than a shirt thats designed to look like the erva it is covering?
Dave, when the mutturim permitted “sheitels” 50 or 100 or whenever years ago, who said they are the same thing that is sold today under the name “sheitel”? They weren’t natural hair then and they didn’t look impossible to differentiate then. Just because the industry today calls their product today a sheitel, does not necessarily mean it is the same thing that was mattired by some back before these products existed in their current nature.
And then there are people who declare anything that inconveniences them to merely be a discardable “chumra”.
The reason the ossrim assured sheitels, is because it is less tznius than a tichel.
It is also worthwhile pointing out that when the mutturrim permitted sheitels, it was NOT todays natural sheitels that are often impossible to differentiate whether she is even wearing a sheitel. They mattered a sheitel that was synthetic with obviously fake hair.
EDITED
rob, that gmora was brought by someone trying to drey a kup that your supposed to be more tznius by a chasuna than a bas mitzva.
Btw you promised earlier to quote additional Igros Moshe’s on bas mitzva ceremonies.
The worst sheitels are those natural impossible to differentiate from real hair ones, that have unfortunately become somewhat widespread in America during the last 10 years.
People looking for excuses will find them for everything from television to short skirts to mixed swimming.
Amongst various chasidim and sefardim (incl. Rav Ovadia) and other shittos especially in E. Yisroel, it is still assur.
To the one whose now edited post question my audacity of asking that question. The tenor of the OP’s previous posts on this board raised sufficient question whether she was coming from an Orthodox perspective. Her second post on this thread overtly confirmed such suspicions, as if the screen name itself hadn’t raised sufficient red flags.
As I said, I’m sure you have an excuse. Of course you have no compunctions claiming he allegedly says so, you just have compunctions verifying such claimed allegations. If you have no need to prove anything, you were free to never claim what you cannot back up. You shouldn’t be surprised that the veracity is questioned.
There you go again, sjs, with your vivid imagination of “beatings” whenever someone mentions the Tanach & Shulchan Aruch mandated and proven proper chinuch of corporal punishment when educationally necessary, as deemed by thousands of years of foresight and proven success.
How many more people do you need to point all this out to you? You would do well to reread bombmaniacs above posting.
MG: What is your idea of “inclusiveness”? Does this extend to the idea of women leading prayer “minyan’s” Rabba/Weiss style?
I dont believe your assertion that “My Rav has no problem with me having a TV”, and I’m certain you will have excuses why you cant name such alleged Rav if I were to challange you to.
Sjs, why do you keep trotting out that untruth as your only retort? Rambam never allows beating a wife. He does say you can take her to BEIS DIN if she doesnt do her duties for him, and THEY can HIT her (not “beat” her) IF she remains stubborn and continues to refuse to listen to beis din.
Beis Din can also hit a man who refuses to listen to it. (Not even for a maalkus punishment.)
Sinning “in this regard”, is no less a sin than sinning “in regards” to kashrus or stealing.
You missed both points.
1. Even so, another bad thing does in no way justify a “less bad” thing.
2. The web can be filtered (i.e. YeshivaNet)
Wolf, whist I wouldn’t consider you a heretic (at least not on this basis), I will say you are a bad father for not knowing the difference between a potch (or using the type of strap mentioned in S”A) and a “beating”. Just as the posek says.
Wolf, true. But two wrongs don’t make a right. And anyone here presumably (I sure hope) is using a filter on the net.
The S”A says you should discipline your children with corporal punishment. Only during the 3 weeks you shouldn’t do so.
In fact the S”A tells parents and rebbeim what kind of strap to use on the children.
What kind of midgets are we to argue with Reb Moshe’s psak din, or to even suddenly shop around for another psak when we don’t like what Reb Moshe said.
The fact the some miscontents resent issurim or chumros, is no reason whatsoever to turn issurim into mutturim or to even change chumros into kulos.
What kind of midget is anyone here to argue with the Shulchan Aruch.
Sjs, there is no way for a woman to be dressed “appropriately” in a pool/beach in front of men. EVEN IF she were fully clothed in the pool (ha!), the wetness would make the clothing too tight.
Squeak, then a father could only go swimming with his daghter until the same age he could sleep in a bed with her.
As far as the pre-6 AM beach idea, that doesn’t help since – even though very infrequent perhaps – a man may pass by the beach that early and see her. (Or in the case of a man, a woman may come by to swim.)
A parent who doesn’t discipline his child with petch, hates him.
I completely agree Josh.
American history is surely bittul Torah. For that there is no excuse. Assur lchol hadeios.
Rav Moshe specifically distinguishes between a bar and bas mitzvah in the text of his teshuvas.
The earlier discussion of ostenacious simchas is interesting and makes good points, but is irrelevant to Rav Moshe’s psak, as Rav Moshe makes no distinction, for the purposes of his teshuvos regarding a bas mitzvah, whether the bas mitzvah ceremony is done on a shoestring budget or ostenaciously.
APY, I would think the point is to educate the uneducated. And learning an Igros Moshe is worthwhile in its own right. Besides, how many of us knew beforehand there is a halachic problem making a Bas Mitzvah ceremony? How many of us knew the Reform initiated this foreign practice? Even putting the strict halachic issues aside, how many of us knew that the heilige Rav Moshe zt’l – the posek hador, called this practice “nonsense” and said its a “non-mitzvah”?
I, for one, learnt some new things today. I would also venture to say that most readers did not know this inyan beforehand. Considering many of us DO care what Rav Moshe paskened, who even knows how many countless people will now be saved from engaging in this reform nonsense?
Yasher Koach!
Shim, Hilarious!… by the EY frum chivalry is not considered tznius…
Moq, doing nothing about the problems you recognize, is the worst approach of all.
Is there a problem playing chess due to the Christian religious figures represented in the game?
Is there a search feature for the CR? (There ought to be.)
How does one apply to become a mod?
Thank you holtzichfest. You said it well.
SmartCookie, is that copied from the classifieds or for your business?
Wrong HLM, the street is not “just as much” ours as theirs. I mean if you believe in Hashkofos Hatelevision, then you are correct. But not if you believe in Hashkofos HaTorah. Enough meforshim have been earlier cited here clearly and conclusively demonstrating a girls place is NOT on the street.
Eisav Sonei LYaakov.
Never turn your back to them.
The Chasam Sofer in Parshas Beshalach says certain secular knowledge is required for Torah study i.e. cow anatomy and arithmatic. So such study is proper, so you can properly learn the relevant Torah portions.
None of what you listed was required knowledge for the hamon hoam. For those that required the knolwledge, it is permissible.
ONLY the Sanhedrin (etc.) learnt that as they required that knowledge. The hamon hoam did NOT study these secular subjects.
lesschums, Rav Hirsch was the antithesis of MO, as Rav Hirsch’s succesor Rav Schwab explained. Austritt is vital.
No, the shaila was sent to Reb Elchonon & Reb Boruch Ber by Rav Shimon Schwab.
In Volozhin, by closing rather than caving to the government, the students could go to other Yeshivos (in nearby countries) without the secular studies. In America, due to the laws there might be no alternatives if all the Yeshivos closed.
Mbachur, no, check out the history. There was no founding fathers or principles. People simply were deviating from traditional orthodoxy, and eventually it picked up the name “modern” orthodoxy
MO is whatever anyone who self-declares as MO wants it to be. There was no founding movement with MO, as there was with Chasidus, the Mussar movement and even illigitimate movements like Reform and Zionism.
To some MO means mixed swimming and TV. To others it might mean Torah Umadda. To other MO folks, they reject even that. Since there never was a movement that got together and said “lets start a MO movement” as occured with the other movements I mentioned, there is no authority that can say no, your philosophy is wrong and not MO. Instead, when asked how can you can allow mixed swimming (for example) in your bungalow colony, the answer invariably is “oh, we’re an MO colony.”
At the end of the day, it is you versus the CC, CI, R. Kanievsky, R. Shach, etc. etc. THEY called it an issur, as the many maare mekomos above prove. And it was the CC who brought up lo yilbash.
I rest my case.
In EY they hold by the shittos of Rav Elchonon Wasserman, Rav Boruch Ber Liebowitz and others based on a Rema that a secular studies curriculum is assur min halacha (based on a Gemorah in the Yerushalmi).
aries, What about chatting with non-relative opposite gender ppl at your home? Or Shabbos table? That’s even worse than the CR since there it is non-anonymous and in person!
The Drukman Conversion Factory has done enough damage to Klal Yisroel with their false converts on a massive scale. We don’t need that duplicated a hundred fold.