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Thank you very much. You described the Teshuva very accurately. Unfortunately, I disagree with almost every point, both in Metzius and in Halacha.
ZeesKite: it may be done without any problem, and the urn remains Pareve. Provided you are VERY careful the milk does not splatter on the urn.
Do you want detailed sources?
yitay: regarding the Aruch HaShulchan, I must disagree. He writes ??”? ?”? ???? ??? ??? ??? with liquid it is Mamash instantaneous. He only agrees for solid, and quantifies the time span at ?? ??????
yitay: nice chabura. I thought something a little simpler.
1) It seems Pashut to me that it is impossible to have either Bishul or Bliyos in something that remains very cold. Therefore, while I have numerous proofs that the Sugya must be discussing where both ended up hot, I think they are superfluous.
2) There are 2 possible ways of explaining ???? ???, in my opinion. Either the dispute relates to the Metzius of whether the cold one became hot or not, or it is assumed hot and the dispute is whether it has a Din Bishul similar to a Kli Rishon or no Din Bishul similar to a Kli Sheini.
That will have to wait for a different day.
Health: theoretically you are correct. However, practically this is more often used for a conventional oven. The physics of a microwave makes it extremely likely that the steam pressure will burst any wrappings.
Sam2: that is the opinion of the Rashba, and it is quoted by the Shach in 2 places. However, on the ???? ??? thread I quoted a long list of Poskim who disagree. They include Tosafos, the Smak, Issur v’Heter HaAruch, Rema, Maharshal, Pri Chadash, other Shachs and the Chavos Da’as.
DY: I still don’t any source for your “new” knas. They are equating a “Kariate” with a Goy to apply the regular issur of bishul or pas Akum. I hear the logic of comparing a Mechalel Shabbos to a Kariate, but they certainly do NOT say any new knas.
sam2: first of all ???? ??? would presumably make them hot, as the steam is rising from the bottom. Anyways, a liquid heated for more than a minute or so DOES make the roof of a microwave hot. Try it.
I agree, as ROB mentioned on a previous thread, if you only heat covered or very dry foods, you may not have a problem.Furthermoree, if the Zeia is hot, it absorbs even if the surface is not.
dy: if you look up the original source in the Pri Chadash you will see that it is only a chumra.
ilovetorah: You’re right. But note that Tosafos argues based on the Gemara 35. All the Poskim only quote Chasnus. Anyways, risk of Issur would not be relevant with a Hechsher
Do you have a source that explains Rav and Shmuel that way. It is a huge Chiddush. I don’t disagree, I just suggested the same in a Shiur a gave this week, but couldn’t find any supporting source. In fact, the Binas Adam 48 clearly does not learn this way. He writes that a red hot milchig pan placed on raw meat does make it Assur because ???? ???.
In fact, it creates a huge problem. If we don’t require a Din of Kli Rishon, why wouldn’t a Kli Sheini Yad Soledes Bo or Iruyi be Mevashel the entire item if we see it became hot. The Beis Yosef on 105:2 writes that there is never Bishul w/o Kli Rishon, implying a “Din” is necessary.
I have a partial answer for this as well, but I want to hear what you think.
If it was a liquid batter and lacking “To’ar Lechem” it would be eqivalent to noodles that are never Hamotzi even with a full meal.
sam: an interesting teshuva. First he calls a microwave ??? then he writes it is steam. in the end he quotes Reb
Moshe and makes your distinction to resolve his chiddush with Reb Moshe. In any event, Reb Moshes basis for his Psak did not play out and the Metzius is inaccurate.
BTW Shvus Yitzchok actually distinguishes between a microwave running on solar generated electricity which is ?????? ???? and a gas or coal burning generator which is ?????? ???
yitay: The Aruch HaShulchan only agrees with the Chamudei Doniel by a dry, solid object. He writes that Rotev is instant. Zei’a is similar to Rotev as in the end of Siman 92
I don’t understand why we wouldn’t suspect that the walls of the microwave are full of Bliyos, just like we do with any pot. Again Zei’a is equivalent to being full of liquid. Additionally, it has been hit by months of repeated Zei’a and even w/o the Taz’s Iruim Harbeh, there is much more than a ????.
Igros Moshe calls microwave Bishul, but the logic is problematic. He writes that it is the same quality as a regular oven, and when they become more available everyone will only cook in them.
Shvus Yitzchok quotes the same from HaRav Elyashiv. Very extreme. Writes that no Bishul on fire after cooked in microwave because they are identical.
Yita: a couple of observations on the teshuva you posted. To say that bliyos takes time is the position of the Chamudei Doniel quoted in Pischei Teshuva 105 at the end of Seif 3. However, the Issur v’Heter HaAruch 30:14, Shut Maharsham 2:20, Pri Toar 98:9, Shevet HeLevi 10:116, Pri Megadim 68 mz 9 argue. See also a list of machmirim in Darkei Teshuva 105:65 and Badei HaShulchan 92:35 and Biurim.
Don’t know why it should be ??? ??????? ????, certainly no 60x in food against walls.
other issues too, but no time now
DY: we don’t make up our own Knas and there is no source to invent a new Knas by Bishul
ilovetorah: As I mentioned, there is only the single reason of Chasunos, as per the Gemara and Shulchan Aruch. Treif is simply a Hava Amina.
Syag: I’m not aware of such a process, but it’s possible
Good. To summarize your position, you are suggesting that ???? ??? only applies when the top object actually becomes hot. Correct?
In addition to the Aruch HaShulchan you quoted, this is also the view of the Da’as Kedoshim 91:4, andclearlyy implied in the Yam Shel Shlomo 7:45 and many other Achronim.
Now if ???? ??? is primarily a ??????, what would say to this follow-up.
What if the top item was the hot one, and we clearly see that it significantly warmed the bottom one, maybe even reaching ?? ??????
RSRH: the rationale for kim li is ?????? ?????? ???? ?????
back to ???? ???:
what would you say if the hot bottom item was tiny and 1 degree above yad soledes and the top one was huge and frozen solid?
Does ???? ??? tell us that the top one is hot despite our observation to the contrary, has a din kli rishon when observed hot, or can be presumed hot when we don’t know?
copied:
I have frequently been asked the appropriate Bracha to be recited before eating a wrap. For the uninitiated, a wrap is a thin piece of dough wrapped around a filler; which may be tuna, cheese, salad or anything else conceivable.
As background, it must be clarified that there are three basic categories of grain based foods.
1) Bread. Bread products are designed to be eaten as a staple food and are always HaMotzi.
2) The other extreme are products that are never HaMotzi, always Mezonos. This includes noodles, oatmeal and other items that have no similarity to bread.
At first glance, a wrap would seem to be very similar to a Lafa/Eish Tanur, which is essentially a wide, pocket-less pita. Both are thin doughs that are designed to be filled for a sandwich-like meal. This would unquestionably render it a bread product, which is certainly HaMotzi. This is the position of HaRav Belsky Shlita.
Additionally, those who allow making Mezonos on a wrap generally take into account these factors and rule it a category 3 rather than a 2. So if you are eating a wrap for lunch, it is likely that you would have to say HaMotzi on it, even if it is not a pure bread. Since it is eaten as a meal, and together with the side dishes is a significant quantity, it is raised to the status of a HaMotzi product.
In conclusion, while it would be ideal to make HaMotzi on a piece of regular bread first, in my opinion a wrap always requires a Bracha of HaMotzi and one should not say Mezonos on it. However, if one did say Mezonos, the Poskim conclude that he has fulfilled his obligation ex post facto, even if it was the incorrect Bracha.
I found that there IS an opinion that forbids the cooking of a Mechalel Shabbos. The Maharam Shick in OC 281 s.v. Amnam writes that a Mechalel Shabbos is equivalent to a Goy for Bishul Akum and Pas Akum, just like Stam Yayin.
The Darkei Teshuva also quotes others.
The Tiferes l’Moshe is clearly making this leniency dependent on which explanation you hold of. He writes that the Nafka Mina between chasnus and issur would be a mumar. If Bishul Akum is due to chasnus, a mumar is mutar. If it would be because of concern of treif, it would apply to the mumar as well.
The problem is that the Gemara and Shulchan Aruch clearly state that that the sole motive is chasnus. It seems that issur is only a hava amina, not even a dissenting opinion.
An irrelegious Jew does NOT create Bishul Akum, because the Gezeira was to prevent intermarriage and there is no prohibition against marrying the daughter of a sinner. Sources: Tiferes l’Moshe, Pischei Teshuva, Yabia Omer, Halichos Olam, Tzitz Eliezer. There are grounds to be stringent based on the Pri Chadash, but even he only considers it a Chumra.
toi: pure avak lashon hara
Rav Elya Svei zatzal quoted in refernece to Lamm the Pasuk ????? ?’ ????, ????? ???? ??????
I hope this information was helpful
finally:
4 Things To Look For When Buying Aravos
1. Edges – The aravos should have long leaves that are either completely smooth or only have very fine serrations.
2. Lavluv – One should check that the tip of the branch has not broken, and for this reason many look for aravos with lavluv, the bunch of immature, unopened leaves at the tip.
3. Dried/Shriveled – Also, the aravos should not be dry or shriveled and no leaves should have fallen off, and since this is a very common problem, it is preferable to replace the aravos frequently over the course on Sukkos.
4. Grey Goods – Finally, since aravos are commonly grown in private yards and on public property, it is especially important to insure that the person you are buying from really has permission to cut and sell them. All of the arba minim are pasul if stolen.
and:
5 Things To Look For When Buying Hadassim
1. Mishulash – The main concern with hadassim is that the leaves should be in sets of three. This requires examining that all the sets of three leaves in the required length grow parallel to each other.
2. Falling Leaves – Furthermore, one must check that no leaves have fallen off.
3. Dry or Broken – Also with hadassim, they must not be dried out or broken at the tip of the branch.
4. Size – Preferably, the leaves should each be smaller than a thumbnail
5. Branch Exposure – Preferably each set of leaves should be close enough to the next set that none of the wood of the branch is exposed.
more from Revach:
6 Things To Look For When Buying A Lulav
1. Closed – The primary issue is to insure that the middle leaf is completely closed all the way to its tip. Preferably, one should not even be able to see two separate points.
2. Not Dry – Also, it is important that the lulav has not dried out and shriveled, but a little brown on the tip is natural.
3. Complete – Furthermore, care must be taken that the tip has not broken off.
4. Covered In Brown – Some prefer to take a lulav where the tip is covered with brown korah insuring its complete closure, while others avoid such a lulav out of concern for what lies underneath.
5. Knepel – Also, some prefer a knepel, where the tip of the leaf is folded over, as such a lulav will almost never split. However, some poskim invalidate such a lulav because of its bent state. If the tip bends slightly, but not so much that the tip points back to the bottom of the lulav, is not a problem and has all the advantages.
6. Beauty – A long, thick, straight and green lulav is ideal, but not of primary importance.
5 Things To Look For When Buying An Esrog
1. The Top Section is Crucial – Always start checking from the top, the side of the pitom or where the pitom would be. A black dot on the top that is easily noticeable renders the esrog pasul. A white dot would also invalidate the esrog, but most light colored dots are beige, not white. This is the most common problem to look for.
2. The Whole Body – Next, the entire esrog should be examined for holes or scratches that would make the esrog chaser, lacking. Also, numerous discolorations that can be seen from all sides while examining the esrog render it menumar, spotted, and pasul even if they are all only on the bottom of the esrog. Furthermore, brown spots may indicate a recent bruise which is likely to darken and turn black over the course of the next few days.
3. The Stem – The stem should be checked to make sure it is firmly attached and not likely to fall off.
4. The Pitom – The pitom should also be inspected to insure that it is free of blemishes and that it is strong enough to last the week of Sukkos. If the esrog does not have a pitom, the place where the pitom would usually be should be checked to verify that it did not break off, but rather grew without a pitom.
5. Overall Beauty – Of course it adds to the beauty of the esrog if it is a good size and has an attractive shape and color, but these are of secondary concern.
copied from Revach.net
sam2: it’s a ??? ???? ?? ???. see Shulchan Aruch OC 217, especially Seif 3.
without kavana the neder/shavua is invalid, as ??? ??? ????? ?????
m80: I expected that you got it, but apparently adorable did not.
an m80 is an explosive firecracker.
Sam: Protestants also believe in Trinity, with the exception of Unitarians.
m80, do you have an explosive temper?
someone once asked Rav Soloveitzik if he minds being referred to as JB. he responded that RJB would be preferable.
old man: can you explain to us why you are under the impression that Chalila indicates Kaballa?
yitayningwut: your welcome, my pleasure
The term ????? ???? is used frequently in Poskim, even when referring to a purely Halachic consideration. For example: the Elya Rabba 316:26 regarding killing a flea on Shabbos, the Mishna Berura 473:43 regarding bugs in maror, the Kitzur Shulchan Aruch 162 regarding Tevila in a river during the rainy season and the Chochmas Adam 52 regarding Bitul Issur, etc.
Secondly, the conclusion of the Taz is ????? ???? ???? ??? ????. Pretty strong language in a recognized Halacha sefer.
Let my try to post an objective and non-controversial answer to tickle toe eitus’ question.
Rav Abadi is an Israeli born Posek, probably in his 80’s. He was the official Posek of the Lakewood Yeshiva under Rav Aharon zatzal, but left that position shortly after Rav Shneur became the Rosh Yeshiva.
He known for his brilliant and original reasoning, as well as for his independent positions. His rulings are often in conflict with the vast majority of other Poskim and accepted practice.
Sam: the sources I quoted are specifically referring to meat and fish. Some of them explicitly differentiate this from snake poison which is assur in minute quantities due to its potency.
yitayningwut: 1) thank you for the mareh makom in Rashi.
2) if you want sources regarding 60 and Sakana
?. ???? [??? ????].
7. ??? ????? (?”? ?’).
8. ??? ??? ????? (?”? ?’, ?”? ?’).
12. ?? ????? (?? ??”? ???’ ?’, ?? ???’ ?’).
[?”? ??”?] ????? ???? ??? ???????? ??? ???? ??? ??? ?? ????? ??? ????? ????? ??? ??’ ??????? ????? ??? ?’ ??? ??? ??? ??? ???? ??? ???? [???”? ???”? ??”? ???”? ??”?]”.
23. ???? ??? (?”? ?’, ?”? ?”?).
34. ??”? (?”? ?”?, ?”? ?”?).
[?? ?? ????? ????? ???????, ??? ??? ?? ???”.
39. ?????”? ????”? (?’ ?????? ??? ?”? ??’ ?’, ??? ??”? ???? ??? ??’ ??”?).
43. ?’ ?????? (??? ?”? ???’ ?”?, ??? ?”? ???’ ?’).
?. ?????.
[?? ????]”.
5. ??”? (?”? ?’).
7. ??”? ???? ????? (?”? ??”? ??’ ?”?, ?”? ??”? ??’ ?”?).
I’m honored to have my own thread.
I’m sorry I didn’t have time to notice before Rosh HaShana, but I really appreciate it.
PY: see the Taz OC 95:3, he clearly understands the Gemara differently than you do.
Thank you very much, I really appreciate it. Now I understand how he resolves liquids as well. I didn’t know a second volume of Ohr Yitzchok came out, it’s not on HebrewBooks yet.