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Not worse, according to the Rashba, the same. A Goy who rejects idolatry does not create Yayin Nesech, but he does create Stam Yainam, see Shulchan Aruch YD 124:6. A Mechalel Shabbos, in his opinion, is the same.
I contacted a number of leading Hechsherim to determine the Minhag and accepted Psak. The OU as you saw is Matir.
uneeq: while the format is less than ideal and talking face-to-face is more productive, it does have advantages. This way, each side has time to look up sources and contemplate their position in between rejoinders, something difficult when debating in person.
In any event, while not a perfect venue, debating Torah certainly beats discussing mundane topics.
I’m sure yitayningwut is joking.
As a Rav with extensive Kashrus expertise, I can assure you that modern food production creates a situation where innocuous sounding ingredients are treif. Anyone who does what he suggests is a Mumar Ochel Neveilos l’Teiavon. If he was a witness at your chasuna you should get married again!
DY: “Referring to mumar l’avodah zara, not l’challel Shabbosos”
Wonderful. So you understand the Shach as agreeing that only a Mumar l’AZ makes Stam Yainam and not a Mechalele Shabbos who is equivalent to aMashuch b’Orlaso.
excerpted from OU document a-133
Rav Belsky commented as follows:
???? ???? ????? ?? ??? ????? ???? ?? ????? ?? ????? ????? ??? ??? ????? ???? ????? ??”? ????? ???? ??”? ??? ????? ????? ??”? ??? ????? ?? ????? ???? ????? ????? ???? ????? ???. ??? ????? ????? ??? ???? ??? ???? ???? ??? ???? ????”? ???? ???? ???? ???? ???? ???? ??? ?????? ?????? ???? ?????? ???? ?????? ????? ??? ????? ?????? ???? ?????, ??? ??? ?????? ?? ???? ??? ???? ????? ??? ????? ???? ???? ???? ??? ????? ????.
?????? ???? ?’ ??? ????”? ?????? ???? ??? ?????? ?????? ??”? ????? ?? ??? ????? ????”? ?’ ????? ????? ????”? ???? ???? ?? ??? ??? ?????? ???? ??? ?????? ??? ??? ??? ??? ????? ?????. ????? ??? ???? ????? ?? ??? ??????? ??? ??”? ?????’ ???? ?????? ??? ???? ????? ???? ????? ????? ???? ???? ??????. ??? ??? ???? ????? ???”? ?”? ???? ?”?, ???? ?? ?????, ??? ???? ?? ??? ????? ?????? ??????? (?? ?? ???? ???) ??? ?? ?? ????? ?? ??? ?? ??? ??? ????.
??? ?????? ??? ????? ?? ???? ????? ????? ??? ?? ????, ??? ??? ???? ????? ?? ???? ???? ???? ????? ???? ??? ?????, ??? ??? ????? ????? ????? ?? ??? ????? ???? ??? ??? ????, ??? ??? ????? ?? ?? ????? ?????. ?????? ?? ?????? ???? ??? ????? ????? ????? ???? ????? ????? ?? ??? ???? ?????. ??? ???? ?????? ????? ???? ???? ??? ??? ???? ??? ???? ?? ???? ????? ????? ??? ?? ???? ?? ????? ????? ??? ??? ?? ?? ?????, ??’ ???? ??? ??.
He clearly understood that Reb Moshe was Meilkil, apparently, he heard it personally.
Another lenient Posek:
??”? ????? ???? ??? ? – ???? ??? ???? ??
(??”? ??? ?????) ??”? ?”? ???? ????? /?????/ ?”? ??”? ??”? ???? ????? ???? ????? ?????? ??? ??’ /?????/ ?? ?”? ???? ????? ???? ????? ????? ???? ???? ??????? ?????? ????? ???”? ???’ ?? ?’ ?????? ????? ????? ??? ??’ ???”? ?????? ????? ????? ??? ???? ????? ?????? ??????? ??? ????? ??? ?”? ??”? ????? ?’ ????? ???.
Not 100% clear what Pri Megadim holds
??? ????? ???? ???? ??? ????? ???? ??? ?”?
??? ??? ??? ???? ????, ?? ???? ????? ????? ???? ?? ??? ?????? ?????? ????? ?? ??? ????? ????, ????? ???? ??”? [???? ? ??”? ??? ?”? ?] ???, ??? ??? ????? ????”? ???? ????? ?? ???? ????? ????? ?????? ????? ???? ??? ?????? ??????, ??? ???? ??? ??? ???? ??? ??. ?????? ?????? ???”? ????? ????”? ?? ???? ???? ????”?, ?????? ????? ????? ?? ?? ??? ???? ?? ????? ?????.
He seems to only be concerned about a Mumar l’AZ and not a Mechalel Shabbos.
I doubt someone would put a completely raw cholent on the crockpot immediately before Shabbos. I think the remaining improvement from 1/3 cooked to fully cooked is enough to Asser Hana’ah
Secondly, the IGM 8 writes that since the Rashba is only quoted in Beis Yosef and not Shulchan Aruch, the true feelings of the Mechaber are unclear. This would be equally applicable here. There is no proof he Paskens the Rashba against the Rivash, if they are arguing at all.
Finally, since when does the Shach ever hesitate to argue on Shulchan Aruch? Especially, when he has the Rivash, Rabbeinu Yerucham, Tashbetz Katan, Orchos Chaim and Kol Bo backing him up.
So, how do YOU understand the Shach?
Actually, these words you are quoting from the Minchas Yitzchok are NOT his conclusion. They are a quote from the Levushei Mordechai.
Jothar: any update?
Health: It is very unlikely that there will a Bishul Akum problem. The cholent should already be cooked at least k’Ma’achal ben Drusai before Shabbos. However, Amira l’Akum is certainly an issue.
???? ?????? ???? ????? ??????? ???? ?????? ???????. ????? ?? ????? ?? ?? ?????? ???? ??? ?????, ??? ????? ?? ???? ???? ????? ????? ???’ ?????? ??”? ??? ???”? ??? ??? ????? ????? ???? ????? ?? ???? ?????.
I edited briefly, but he concludes that when supervision has eliminated the risk of Tarfus, the remaining issue according to some Poskim that a Mumar is a Goy, does not bother him.
You are correct that the Shach does not seem to agree with the Ran who includes a Mechalel Shabbos in the general Gezeira against Goyim. However, this is exactly the point. Instead, he learns like the Rivash 394 that Yabia Omer quoted, that a Mumar makes Stam Yainam because of a risk of real Yayin Nesech. This is clearly not relevant to Bishul. So the Shach would appear to side with the Meikilim.
BTW, I heard that they printed a 9th volume. What do people say about its reliability?
DY: “You didn’t cite sources, besides which, your list is anyhow incomplete”
You could have asked. Tzitz Eliezer is 9:41.Rav Belsky is in OU document a-133, I have requested it from the OU and will post it when I receive it. Rav Nebenthal is ????? ???? – ?? ?? ????
???? (?”? ???? ???”?) : ??? ?? ?? ???? ???? ????? ?? ???”?, ??? ???? ?? ????? ????? ?
?????: ?’ ????? ????
I’m sorry it was incomplete. I shouldn’t have left out the Kaf HaChaim 113:1 who is also lenient.
DY: “He only differentiates in the sense that if there’s no supervision, it’s not even a shaila, but is explicitly machmir even when there is no chashash that he would add something unkosher”
No. He writes that when there is supervision, there is no issue of Ma’achalim Assurim. the only remaining concern would be Chasnus, and on that he concurrs with the Tiferes l’Moshe that Chasnus does not apply to a Mechalel Shabbos.
DY: “No, I didn’t read it into that sentence. In the previous sentence, though, he writes that “shar issurim” are a “safek gadol” so it’s hard to believe that in the following sentence (your favorite line 🙂 ), he is specifically excluding bishul”
“Clearly, although he (IGM) personally would be mattir, he does not do so in the face of the consensus of the Acharonim. (He is also clearly equating other issurim of maachalei akum with yayin.)”
I’m really confused how you are understanding the Igros Moshe 1:46. What he says is that “other Issurim”, in contrast to wine, are “very doubtful” if there is any prohibition for a Mechalel Shabbos, and he leans to be Mattir.
I don’t know where you see deference to Machmirim on Bishul or milk. I don’t understand why you think favorite line” should exclude Bishul. And I don’t understand why you think he equates Bishul to wine. Please reread the IGM.
DY: So,what IS your point?
Not that yayin is mutar, rather that the same reasoning for the issur should apply to bishul.
So your main point is that when Igros Moshe 1:46 writes “???? ??? ???? ???? ???? ??? ???? ????”? ?? ????????? ?????? ???? ????? ?????”, what he really means is that Bishul and wine are equivalent and both apply to a Mechalel Shabbos due to the Minhag?!?!
You’ll need a really big shoehorn for that one.
I’ll try to get to your other points later.
Thanks for the compliment. I would have cited names and precise sources.
was this helpful?
“I mentioned this twice already”
unless you’ve had unapproved posts, this is the first time you are mentioning an IGM other than 1:45 and 1:46
did you realize that this teshuva from the unreliable 8th volume contradicts 2:132?
“???? ??? ????? ?????? ??? ???? ????? ???? ?? ????? ???, ????? ???
???? ????? ??????, ??? ???? ????? ??”
Where did you get this quote from? It’s not in the Igros Moshe we have been discussing until now.
“Please look up the word explicit in the dictionary; you’re using it incorrectly”
Sorry, it is EXPLICIT in Igros Moshe that he holds that Bishul of a Mechalel Shabbos is Mutar and Yayin is Assur. You are trying to put words in his mouth based on weak Diyukim that are inappropriate to make in an Acharon.
“See the Shach 124:14 that Yayin Nesech depends on Avoda Zara
Of course it does, but we’re discussing stam yaynom.
That’s referring to a mumar l’avodas kochavim.”
The Shach is also discussing Stam Yainam which is Assur to drink but Mutar b’Hana’ah, nevertheless, he ties it to AZ. While SA and the Shach in 124 are discussing a Mumar l’Kol HaTorah, the Chasam Sofer and Igros Moshe I quoted extend it to a Mechalel Shabbos who is also considered Mumar l’Kol HaTorah.
“You’re completely missing my point”
So,what IS your point?
“You also haven’t defended your contention that most poskim are meikil”
Well, you dropped half my list, so that’s why it sounds lacking.
Yes you did, and I already refuted them.
I also do not understand why you think Reb Moshe equated Bishul to Yayin. He explicitly wrote that regarding Bishul a Mechalel Shabbos is not equivalent to a Goy ?? ????????? ?????? ????. It is obvious that he distinguishes between them. While he does not specify why, the explanation is simple, as the Shach I quoted says; Bishul is due to Chasnus, while Yayin depends on Avoda Zara.
In general, I think the best way to analyze your query regarding modern ovens is not to compare to labels in Shulchan Aruch and cases mentioned there. Rather, I would break down the question like this.
1) YD 108/Reicha/Tanur-Not relevant for many reasons. Our ovens, especially American ones, are large and have ventilation. Additionally, there is no Reicha consecutively, and it is highly unlikely and not recommended to cook Kosher and non-Kosher or meat and dairy simultaneously in the same oven.
3) Mamashus- Pieces of caked on grease could fall from the roof of the oven onto the new food, and if they are edible there would be a problem. However, this can easily be solved by a simple cleaning, and no Kashering is necessary for this concern. More problematic is the possibility that the grates/racks the pans are placed on could have residue on them (Bliyos would not be problematic due to Shtei Kedeiros). A thorough cleaning would solve this issue. A simpler solution is to place a sheet of aluminum foil on the rack and under the pan. This wat, any possible Bliyos will only penetrate the foil, but cannot continue in to the pan due to Shtei Kedairos.
Still, as a general behavior, I cannot recommend using the same oven for Milchigs and Fleishigs, both uncovered. However, minimum precautions are sufficient.
This is just off the cuff, I’m not holding in the Sugya at the moment.
DY: “I still disagree”
Why?
“but it’s still clear that he doesn’t allow his sevara to be matir all pas of a mechalel Shabbos doesn’t stand on its own”
Not true
I would agree with Yitay mi’Ikar HaDin, but l’Chatchila I recommend people should wait 24 hours and run it on high for a while. Certainly, the rack the pan is placed on must be cleaned.
DY: The second Teshuva is clear that he is lenient on a Mechalel Shabbos without any other factors to consider.
DY: “You haven’t explained why he needs another sevara to be matir a mechalel Shabbos’ pas”
He doesn’t
“If he holds l’maaseh that a mechalel Shabbos has the din of a Yid, he should be matir even if it wasn’t difficult to hire other workers”
He is
You didn’t read it carefully. You are confusing the part regarding non-Jewish workers with Mechalelei Shabbos.
“Where does he state that their halachos are intrinsically different?”
Beginning of 1:46. We forbid a Mechalel Shabbos for wine but not Bishul. The obvious reason is because Mumar may be Menasech but no risk of Chasnus.
I forgot to mention, Rav Belsky also said that it is obvious to him that the Halacha follows Tosafos, the Rosh and the majority of Rishonim regarding the number of strings. Therefore, he said that if you only wear one Techeiles string on each corner instead of two, you have accomplished nothing.
Jothar: any update?
I clarified with a Talmid that Rav Belsky does now encourage people to wear Techeiles. However, for personal reasons he continues to only do so on Shabbos, when it is not seen.
DY: Wow you really know how to twist an Igros Moshe out of context! He writes a blanket Heter on Mechalelei Shabbos, because the sole concern is Chasnus which is not relevant. He only consents to be Machmir by wine.
DY: ??”? ????? ?? ??? ??’ ??”? quotes Rav Dovid Feinstein that one should be Machmir .25″
Sam2: “I get Shailos every year from girls/women asking what they’re allowed to do or not”
Haven’t you mentioned in the past that you are a bochur?
However, HaRav Moshe Feinstein in Igros Moshe YD 1:45 and 46 explicitly rules like those who are altogether lenient, as the sole issue is Chasnus which is not relevant. This is also the position of the Tzitz Eliezer, Rav Ovadia Yosef, Rav Neventhal and Rav Belsky.
The bottom line is that I remain with my original position; the Halacha is that it is Mutar, but there are grounds to be Machmir.
Furthermore, when milk is already Batel, it is impossible to become Assur subsequently. You want to extend this to steak sauce where the common usage may be unlikely to contain 1/60, but it is certainly not impossible.
BTW, the Meikilim on Bitul Sakana are: Pischei Teshuva, Chamudei Daniel, Eretz Tzvi, Ramatz, Ein Yitzchok, Avnei Nezer, Maharash Engel, Yad Meir, Yad Eliezer, Degel Efraim and Rav Ovadia Yosef. The Machmirim are: Mekor Maim Chaim, Avnei Tzedek, Maharsham, Yad Yehuda, Shulchan Chai, Atzei Olah, Divrei Yatziv and Rav Chaim Kanievsky
zahavasdad: “its really no different than taking a church and making it into a shul “
Which is forbidden according to many Poskim. See Mishna Berura and Biur Halacha on 154:11
DY: YD 53:4 IS a chumra. See Shach and Taz that we are Meikil with any minimal Tlia.
So is 48:12, because a child has no Ne’emanus.