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aries: “The job of the Principal is to do the administrative work and that includes making the decisions about applicants”
100% correct. And to make a proper decision he needs all the relevant information.
“Children should never have a say in whether another child gets accepted or not”
Also true. The child is not making the decision, he is just supplying a perspective.
oomis: “People can…fake having good middos”
exactly why the principal need to ask friends. A student is likely to fool authority where he puts on his best face, but will never fool his friends who see him when his hair is down.
oomis: he is not asking them “how to do HIS job”, he is asking for their observations. Perfecty legitimate.
“trimmed beared during the week”
and what about on Shabbos, does it grow back???
oomis: and if the principal only asks former teachers and principals he can’t get “a false preconceived notion”???
aries: I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree, because I see nothing wrong with a Yeshiva choosing to cater to a specific niche and feel that they are fully entitled to make all reasonable inquiries to insure incoming students match their criteria. There certainly is an important need filled by broad community schools, but specialized Yeshivos are also very important. Of course this enters a whole separate issue.
Everything you write about new students having a “clean slate” etc. is true, once the child has been accepted. However there is no reason a school should feel pressured to accommodate inappropriate students even if they may improve, they are fully entitled to select talmidim who have already demonstrated their abilities. We aren’t discussing 1st grade, 8th graders have had years to prove themselves already.
“ASK THE QUESTION- Don’t just be a chazer”
I think its rude and insulting to call a person a “pig” for following what has been the accepted practice for hundreds of years an is an accepted manner of paying a contract worker (eg. real estate broker) in the business world.
“principals lower themselves to the level of “friend” and discuss with bochurim things that are not on their level to discuss”
I don’t think the issue here is “shmoozing” with students, it is garnering information from them. The bottom line is that friends know much more about each other than teachers and principals know about them, and they are freer about sharing honest info. Obviously the principal will take into consideration the maturity of the source of his information when determining its reliability.
KBear: I gather you have had personal negative experiences with shadchanim, but reasonably speaking can you imagine telling your real estate broker that you will only pay him if you are still happy with your house 3 years later???
AZ: I don’t think the income levels of a real estate broker and a shadchan are meant to be comparable. The point is that it is well accepted in the business world that some professional are paid by the hour and some by the completed job. Real estate brokers and shadchanim from time immemorial have been paid when a deal is successfully completed, so it is difficult to say that such a system is lacking in “yosher”. Maybe the payout for shadchanim should be increased, by why does that necessitate changing the whole system.
oomis:”It is showing them he suborns loshon hara, by actively encouraging it”
It isn’t Lashon HaRa when done for a to’eles (and meets the other criteria in Sefer Chofetz Chaim).
“he doesn’t have a more intelligent, productive, and proper way to get the information he needs to make a good decision (i.e. speaking to the child’s FORMER principal and teachers”
Contemporaries provide an important, different perspective then teachers and principals can provide. Additionally, friends may know information the child has taken pains to hide from figures of authority.
“not to mention the most important person – the actual child”
If you have ever interviewed someone for a job or school you would know that everyone puts their best foot forward for the interview, and without doing some prior research the value of the interview is seriously diminished.
“Gas and tolls: $25.-$250”
Where is he taking her on a date that is could cost $250 for gas and tolls?????
az: “YOSHER dictates that it should become the norm not the unique case.”
What would you say about a real estate agent etc, would YOSHER dictate that he must be paid for showing a house even if no sale is made.
oomis: “the person who called the school (and so quickly) was guilty of L”H”
Actually this would be a classic case of to’eles and 100% permitted if done properly. If I had a teenage daughter who was hanging out with unsavory boys I would certainly want to know about it in time to deal with the issue and not find out only after it is too late. I find it hard to believe any parent would feel differently. It also sounds like the school dealt with the matter very responsibly, not threatening to expel the student, just informing the mother that “they thought she needed to know”.
However I do think the school should have been left out of the picture, the classmate should have asked her mother to call your friend’s mother directly.
sometimes a principal needs inside info that can best be gleaned from contemporaries of the student.
I didn’t know Wiki publishes PR pieces.
Sorry KBear, but any Yiddish speaker will tell you that Shprintza is the Yiddish word for the season Spring.
Shprintza means spring in Yiddish and would be equivalent to Aviva in Hebrew.
Nimrod was often used to indicate rebellion againt the British Mandate.