hello99

the expression used is ???? ????, which means to remove completely.

A simple compromise followed in many shuls is to sell SOME kibudim and distribute others at the discretion of the Rav/gabbai/board.

pushut: Rav Elyashiv DID take a job some 60 years ago as a Dayan for the Rabbanut. He retired about 30 years ago.

It may be possible, but I know number of people who cracked theirs. Better to use a hot plate.

Sefer Ahavas Chesed

mamash: they changed the law about a year or two ago and now only use mugan where they feel necessary.

its me: The other bus companies have switched to the automatic Ravkav, Egged is from the last holdouts.

Let’s break the issue down. Those who follow the (primarily Chassidishe) Poskim that CS is assur should not feed it to there children except as a medical necessity in consultation with their Rav. Those who take it as a chumra must weigh the pros against the cons of their specific circumstances.

popa: I don’t understand your objection. Why not have in intellectual debate, but even if R’ Krauss wins we can vehemently disagree with the way he expresses his opposition to the founding of the State of Israel.

In fact the vast majority of Litvishe and Chasidishe Gedolim would agree with most of what R’ Krauss has written here, that l’chatchila the Zionists were wrong for establishing a State. Our issue with him is regarding how to deal with the b’dieved. On that topic there are a wide range of legitimate views, but I think (almost) everyone in the CR would agree that NK’s action are far outside the bounds of acceptable.

popa: you must be new around here. AZ is absolutely obsessed with closing the “age gap” and imposing close in age shidduchim. He is convinced that this is the panacea for all shidduch related issues and will not consider any alternatives.

az: We’ve discussed this ad nauseum in other threads and it has been conclusively demonstrated that the “age gap” is NOT a significant factor n the “shiduch crisis”. The statistics do NOT support it, the shadchanim do NOT believe it, historical research precludes it,the older singles know it is NOT the issue.

All this has been proven previously and why can’t you leave us alone.

az: can you think of anything other then the “age gap” myth???

Furthermore the Gemara Menachos 44a writes that it rises from the sea every 70 years and therefore it is expensive. Rashi there explains that it is valuable because of its rarity and unavailability the other 69 years. This does not correspond with your un-sourced assertion that during the Beis HaMikdash when it did come every 70 years it was plentiful. I would like to hear a source for your assertion; I searched the DBS Torah Library and did not find it in any Medrash or other sefer.

We are still waiting for part two. I have to say that I would score part 1 as a victory for NK, his arguments were much more convincing. Of course there are many stronger arguments against their shita, I hope to see them raised in the later parts.

fabie: as I pointed out, even if the outcome is the important factor the shaver must cut as close as a razor or at least significantly less then chagiras tziporen. An electric shaver doesn’t do that, I don’t know how the metzius was explained to Rav Elyashiv. Re the Chazon Ish as well, the blade of an electric shaver could NEVER scrape ink off ones skin, the guard would prevent it.

The Chofetz Chaim when he referred to scissors was not discussing an issur l’halacha, because he would not argue on the Gemara and Shulchan Aruch. He NEVER discussed an electric shaver, as it was not yet invented when he wrote Likutei Halachos. More likely he meant the safety razor which was the newest innovation in shaving in his days. This is what your wife uses to shave her legs and it is certainly a ta’ar. He “frequently admonished about shaving the beard year after year” yes, with a razor.

Reb Elyashiv’s issur is based on the misunderstanding that the Likutei Halachos refers to an electric shaver.

Reb Yaakov Kaminetzky is not true according to his son.

The Chazon Ish equates a shaver with powder, which is not a halachic issue. Reb Chaim Kanievsky is quoting this and is obviously also not discussing a problem in halacha as is obvious from the context where he writes that it was learned from goyim. The story about ink is very questionable, because the guard would scrape off ink but have no significance to hair.

Just a few examples to show this cut-and-past list is totally irrelevant.

Lets try to avoid the trap of making this issue into a personal fight and return it to a rational discussion of the halachic issues involved.

The conclusion of the Gemarra in Makkos is that the only prohibition on shaving the beard is when it involves both giluach (shaving in the normal manner) and hashchasa (destroying the hairs to below the skin level). The Gemara writes that pulling out hairs with a tweezers is permitted because it is hashchasa without giluach and cutting with a scissors is permitted because it is giluach without hashchasa. The Beis Yosef writes that misparaim kein ta’ar (a scissors close like a razor) is permitted l’chatchila because it similar to a regular scissor involves giluach w/o hashchasa and the Rema Shach Taz Chasam Sofer etc concur.

It is clear from all the above mentioned Poskim that there is NO problem of lo silbash or “looking Goyish”, as they all permit removing all the hair with a tweezers or powder. The Chasam Sofer brings a number of Gemaros that a beard was NEVER considered a defining factor in “looking Jewish” and writes that wearing black shoes is much more problematic. He adds that since the Crusades it has been customary that only outstanding Talmidei Chachomim would grow beards.

Regarding Kabbalistic motives, the Chasam Sofer who was a talmid muvhak of the Hafla’ah and Reb Nosson Adler writes that there is no problem at all, as is evident from the MaHaRah miPano who was the “Father of Mekubalim” and was clean shaven. However there is admittedly much debate on this issue and it seems that different talmidim of the Arizal had various understandings on the matter. Since I am not personally versed in Kabbalah, I prefer not to comment.

It is also clear from the above that the mainstream, accepted Poskim are matir a misparaim kein ta’ar, the halachic category under which shavers fall. That is why I have quoted them as permitting electric shavers even though they did not address them directly, because part of the job of a Posek is to determine which existing category new technological innovation are most similar and the Poskim I listed permit l’chatchila the category of misparaim kein ta’ar.

Regarding the possibility that a shaver is a ta’ar, the Terumas HaDeshen brought in Darkei Moshe clearly defines the difference between a true ta’ar which is assur and a misparaim kein ta’ar which is mutar as whether the moving cutting blade makes direct contact with the skin. An electric shaver (other then possibly the lift-and-cut) certainly does not and would be mutar. Reb Tzvi Pesach Frank zatzal YD 143 clearly learns this way and therefore sees no issue with electric shavers, as does Rav Shmuel Kaminetzky based on personal conversations I have had with him on this issue. However Rav Vozner shlita in a number of teshuvos proposes an original understanding that the reason misparaim kein ta’ar is mutar is simply because it is not as close of a shave as a true ta’ar, but if it would create identical results it would also be considered hashchasa and be assur miD’Oraisa. Based on the assumtion that an electric shaver is in fact just as close as a razor he writes that they should be assur. He says he discussed this with the Chazon Ish who he understood to agree with his chiddish, but is disturbed that the Chazon Ish makes no mention of any issur in his sefer and seems to be uncertain if this indicates that he did not agree. It is evident from the teshuvos of the Nodah b’Yehuda and Chasam Sofer that one may cut the hairs of the beard with a scissors shorter then k’dei chagiras tziporen (what can be felt with the edge of the fingernail, for example when a shochet checks the schita knife) and this is NOT considered a ta’ar. They apparently either disagree with the understanding of the Shevet HaLevi or they define the closeness of a true ta’ar as leaving a PERFECTLY smooth face. This is something an electric shaver can not deliver.

While there are certainly grounds to be machmir, this pshat is not generally accepted. Furthermore, it is not an accurate depiction of the metzius as an electric shaver is NOT nearly as close as a razor, and it is not likely that even Rav Vozner would forbid shaving if he were aware of this.

helpful: “Time to rid yourself of that Norelco and start looking like a Yid. :-)”

Personal insults are not “helpful” to a constructive discussion of the topic. Actually I have a long, full beard and my sons do not shave either, but I do not hold it is assur to shave.

I have already quotes Shulchan Aruch, Rema, Shach Taz, Chasam Sofer, and Rab Moshe is matir a number of places in Igros Moshe as well as by oral testimony of numerous talmidim.

On the other hand you have only quoted hearsay evidence to the Poskim you quote. Nothing from the Chazon Ish’s seforim, in fact he was only “disgusted” with shaving, but he equated it l’halacha with powder which is muttar. The Chofetz Chaim is a misquote, as he did not refer to electric shavers which did not exist when he wrote Likutei Halachos. When I learned in Philly many decades ago, Rav Shmuel Kaminetzky shlita insisted that the bachurim shave and said that the quote in Emes l’Yaakov is untrue.

So I think it is clear that the vast majority of Poskim have always and still do permit shaving, as long as it is not done with a razor.

feif un: if most people usually eat it as a meal it has the status of pas gamur and your situation is irrelevant.

Assuming most people usually eat pizza as a meal and not a snack, it is always hamotzi. The cheese and tomato sauce is irrelevant as the Magen Avraham writes in the end of OC 168 (don’t remember the seif katan) that only sweet fillings that make something desert-like render a pastry pas haba’ah b’kisnin and not cheese etc. Even if the dough is made with fruit juice instead of water, it doesn’t help unless the dough becomes too sweet to eat as a meal, which is certainly NOT the case with pizza.

The Chasam Sofer also writes there that there is no reason to keep a beard based on Kabbalah either.

Is that better, mod?

maxwell: not true, Shulchan Aruch permits ??????? ???? ??? which completely removes all hair. The Poskim who asser either pasken not like Shulchan Aruch Shach Taz etc, or they assume an electric shaver is a ta’ar mamash.

maxwell: Shulchan Aruch there DOES permit shaving the body other then the armpits and pubic hair as long as a razor is not used. In YD 181:11 Shulchan Aruch writes that the beard may not be shaved with a razor, anything other then a razor is permitted.

The Eida HaChareidis came out with a policy statement that herring must be checked.

apushatayid: “Is that a psak that the worms are assur or a statement that says, we are not sure what the halacha is, so better safe then sorry”

Maybe you ddn’t notice that I renamed the list “should not eat” rather than “assur”. Rav Heineman certainly belongs on that list.

I’ve never had good experiences dry-cleaning a talis. Instead I wash it by hand with Woolite and iron on medium heat. Comes out great.