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cookies have tzuras hapas, a wrap is so thin it may not.
why are ther 2 identical threads? can they be merged???
A wrap may not have tzuras hapas, and if so would not be hamotzi even if you were kovea seuda.
Rainus: I don’t have time to debunk each tangential point you raise, but I will make my main arguments.
1) You have not mentioned a single name of a Rishon born in Germany before Rashi and the Baalei Tosafos, who were in France, to support your assumption that the community and Yeshivos in Germany preceded them.
2) Even if the community in Germany did predate the other European communities, there is no proof or logical reason to assume that Frankfort or any of the other German cities preserved the original minhagim more accurately then the communities that migrated to Central and Eastern Europe. Why should we assume everyone who moved to Poland and Lithuania wantonly chucked all their traditions overboard even before Chassidus and all those who remained in Germany faithfully preserved the “authentic” traditions without deviating by a hairsbreadth? And we see that each city in Germany had it’s own minhagim, how do you know if Frankfort, Hamburg etc is the “true” tradition?
3) I proved by the way of examples (3 hours and talis, and Kabbalas Shabbos can be added to the list) that the German communities did NOT preserve their traditions completely unchanged (regardless if 3 hours is a chumra or kula, it is certainly a change). If we see they made these obvious changes it is only logical to assume they also made numerous more subtle deviations. It is much more logical and reasonable to assume that in EVERY community minor discrepancies crept in over the centuries, all of them are valid but none are identical to what was practiced 1000, and certainly not 2000, years ago.
4) Why would the Magen Avraham, who is probably the foremost authoritative sefer on Shulchan Aruch Orach Chaim, have written all the things he did just for the fun of it?
Halacha – Abriged Amidah
Submitted by anonymous Answered by Rav Peretz Moncharsh
Answer: The source of the Chaye Adam is the gemara Berachos 28 and it is brought in Shulchan Aruch OC 110:1 and commonly referred to as “Tefilas Havineinu”. However the Mishna Berura there in Biur Halacha and the Aruch HaShulcha write that it is not done just because one cannot concentrate on a full Shmona Esrei, because today people have difficulty concentrating even for an abridged version. Additionally, the Shulchan haTahor writes that it should not be said because Abaye in the Gemera there curses anyone who says an abridged tefilla. Furthermore, the Kaf HaChaim writes that since there are various nusachaos mentioned in the Poskim and we are uncertain which is correct, the minhag is to always only say the full version.
“You missed the point, which was that Poland’s Yiddishe yishuv was younger than that of Ashkenaz”
Do you think that because they were younger they upped and corrupted all the minhagim their fathers followed precisely for hundreds of years???
MHY: “There are more Jews in the USA now than were in Poland, Hungary or Russia. But we still look back to our roots in Europe nevertheless”
You missed MY point. I am challenging your assertion the the “roots” were in Germany. I mentioned Rashi and the dozens of Baalei Tosafos to prove that in the early part of the Rishonim from about 1050 on the majority of the talmidei chachomim and yeshivos were located in France NOT Germany. You claimed that 100 years earlier the primary roots were in Germany, but you did not mention a single name other then Rabbeinu Gershom to support your hypothesis. Actually, even Rabbeinu Gershom himself was originally from Metz, which is in France!!!
“””In Ashkenaz they kept the old minhogim better.”
Dream on.”
It is true, fact”
Your saying so does not make it a fact. Can you prove in any way that Yekkeske minhagim are more “authentic”??? I demonstrated in a different thread that the minhag of unmarried men wearing a talis is a relatively new innovation, the Maharil, Rokeach and Rosh, all Rishonim from Germany, write that the minhag was not to wear them. Also waiting 3 hours after meat has no basis in Halacha or minhag, in fact the German poskim over the centuries all write that the minhag was to wait 6 hours, including Rav Hirsch in Chorev.
“Incorrect. Not all minhogim all equal. There are different levels of minhogim and we have expressions among the poskim reflecting this, such as ???? ???????, ???? ??????, ??????? ???? ????, ????? ????”
Now you do it again. you are calling the minhagim of Lita and Poland minhag shtus. WATCH YOUR MOUTH!!!
“in Eretz Yisroel there is no one minhag hamokom due to the diverse population with multiple botei dinin”
I have already disproved this spurious allegation at length.
Is he Avrahm Fried’s nephew?
Dave Hirsch: blending is muttar even if there is a safek or miut hamatzui of bugs and it need NOT be muchzak naki, b/c there is no issur to be mevatel a safek issur l’chatchila. Shach YD 89 and Terumas HaDeshen brought in YD 84. Therefore if veges are grown in a way that makes them less that rov likely to be infested they may be ground.
MHY: It seems you have conceded the point that minhag hamakom in Yerusholaim is NOT to wear tefillin and that it is assur in public, correct.
MHY: “The ikkar yishuv of Ashkenazic Jewry, the spiritual center, was in Germany. That is where Rabbeinu Gershom Meor hagolah and those who followed after him were”
Actually in the times of Rashi and the Baalei Tosafos there were more people and Talmidei Chachomim in France.
“Eastern Europe five hundred years ago was still shvach compared to what developed there later. By the way, can you name one rishon from Poland?”
500 years ago was NOT the Rishonim. Frankly I am shocked at your condescending tone toward the communities of Eastern Europe in the 1500’s that gave rise to the Rema, Levush, Bach, Sma, Maharam Lublin, Maharsha, Maharal, Shela HaKadosh etc
“In Ashkenaz they kept the old minhogim better.”
Dream on.
“The Rashba lived a long time before R. Yitzchak Karo”
My point exactly. The original minhag in Sefarad was NOT to wear tefillin, long before the Zohar was even discovered.
The bottom line is it is impossible to determine that one set of minhagim is “superior” to the others, and each individual should continue following his minhag avos unless it conflicts with minhag hamakom.
rebdoniel: here is worse. Since he presumably was not watching her clean the fridge, we do not know what she may have done to the bottle. She may have uncorked it and actually poured it.
Tiferes Yisroel does NOT prohibit trimming payos in Makkos 3:5, but he does write there that one may remove his beard with cream l’chatchila.
Maharshal writes not to SHAVE the payos at all, even with a scissors. He makes no mention of trimming where the concern would not apply.
Mishna Berura writes ?? ??? ?? ?? ??????? they may not be REMOVED completely. He doesn’t say they may not be trimmed.
MHY: “Ashkenazic Jews have roots, somewhere down the line, in Ashkenaz (Germany)”
Actually there were “Ashkenazi” communities in France, Italy and Austria as far back in history as the ones in Germany. Anyways, there were established communities in Eastern Europe 500 years ago. Why should someone drop 5 centuries of minhagim because his ancestors may have briefly sojourned in Germany previously? And if you want to follow only “original” minhagim, go farther back to Bavel and EY???
“Authentic Sepharadim have a similar kesher to Spain”
Not true. The community in Bavel even had yeshivos that were open consecutively from before the destruction of the First Beis HaMikdash until Saddam Hussein closed them. Similarly Egypt had a community during the time of the Bayis Sheini. Neither of them originated in Spain, but they are referred to as “sefardim”.
I think the Rashba knew minhagei Sefarad as well, and he writes that they did NOT wear tefillin. Remember the Beis Yosef left Spain 5 years old while the Rambam was born and raised there and only move to Egypt later in life. The fact is that anyone familiar with minhagei Sefarad knows that they do NOT consistently follow the Rosh, who only moved to Spain after his children were grown and married unlike Marcus Lehman.
I am aware that many Rishonim hold tefillin is not worn CHM. My point was that those who do not wear did not ORIGINATE from Kaballa.
“my father wore Tefillin on CHM as well as my grandfather. But not because they were Ashkenazim, as I try to be”
Ashkenazi is a generic term referring to Northern European Jews and indicates nothing about Germanic origin. Just as most Sefardim have nothing to do with Spain.
smartcookie: you must be chassidesh. We Litvacks pronounce Sis-IL shnur.
In EY (and I gather Hungary)an aunt is a muma
Additionally, not wearing tefillin CHM is not only based on Kabbala. It is the opinion of the Tosafos, Raavad and Rashba predating the popularity of Kabbala, and the Teshuvos HaRashba testifies that the minhag was NOT to wear tefillin CHM, not like the Beis Yosef’s uncle.
I clarified with my Erloi neighbor the conduct in the Erloi Beis Medrash. In Erloi in Beitar tefillin are only put on at home before davening and not in shul at all. In Yerusholaim, the Rebbe has always worn tefillin in the Ezras Nashim or Sukka with a minyan of just 10 men accompanying him. In recent years a number of bochurim have jumped at the opportunity to daven with their Rebbe in a small group and joined bringing the numbers a little higher. However the Rebbe considers himself to be wearing tefillin in private and tefillin are never worn in the Beis Medrash by anyone.
Despite the words of Teshuvos Divrei Chaim, Tzanzer bochurim do NOT wear tefillin in EY. The Divrei Yatziv writed that minhag EY trumps even a teshuva from the Divrei Chaim and their long-standing minhag.
Rainus: I feel bad for you that you have run out constructive points to make and must resort to attempts at personal insults. The topic of discussion was largely based on conflict between “minhag hamakom” and “minhag avos”. If one does NOT have any minhag avos there would be NO heter to violate minhag hamakom.
If your family was originally from Stolin then they were never Ashkenazim/German Jews, rather they were Litvaks. So you have not “returned my family to the way of Ashkenaz”, as minhag Lita has many significant differences from minhag Ashkenaz.
I am shocked by your rant against the “kabbalistic bandwagon”. Are you aware that the Magan Avraham and many other Gedolei HaAchronim quote extensively from kisvei haArizal and their words are nearly unanimously accepted by all Ashkenazi Jews and have been for many hundreds of years.
especially strange because one may not give a gift to an aveil.
Absolutely speak to a VERY BIG POSEK! As you converted as a baby and were not yet frum, you may need to undergo a new conversion yourself.
I am very aware of history as well as Sefardi minhagim. However while it is true to say that the Rosh “influenced” Sefardi minhagim as you write, R’ Yitzchak Karo writes that “all of Spain follows the Rosh for all dinim and all Issur v’Heter”. This statement is strange. Sefardi minhag follows the Rif, Rambam, Ramban and Rashba much more closely then the Rosh. The Beis Yosef in his introduction famously writes that he generally follows the majority of the 3 pillars of halacha: the Rif, Rambam and Rosh. Since the Rambam writes in his hakdama to Mishna Torah that he argues on the Rif in less then 8 places, the Rosh is usually outnumbered.
Rainus: You cannot invent a new shita from a story about the Gra.
I have davened in KAJ-Beitar as well as spoken there on Fri night and I know most of the members personally. My observation, confirmed by one of the organizers of the minyan, is that the majority may have families that originated in Germany/Switzerland generations ago but few of them have fathers who wear tefillin at all. Would you like to go over the list of regular mispalelim name by name?
I have heard from numerous sources intimately involved in the Yekke shuls that Ramot does NOT wear tefillin CHM based on R’ Elyashiv’s psak.
My neighbor Deutch is a chossid of Erloi and tells me that his family and the vast majority of Erloi do NOT daven Ashkenaz. I still need to ask him how many wear tefillin.
R’ S. Z. Ulman forbade KS from wearing tefillin.
Thank you for the quote of R’ Yitzchak Karo. now I understand that “therefore…” in your original post was your own words and not a continuation of his quote. BTW, it a strange statement he makes to say that minhag sfarad follows the Rosh in all matters, any ba’al halacha knows this is not true.
holtzichfest: Do you want to be more specific, I don’t see any mashmaus from the Taz to your “mis”understanding of history.
MHY: “You are not accurately reporting what Rav Moshe wrote. Rav Moshe said clearly that one may wear tefillin on chol hamoed in Eretz Yisroel, and didn’t have a big IF before those words”
IN PRIVATE! We are discussing in public
I never said nor implied the Gedolim made a “mistake”, I am challenging Rainus’ implication the the names he mentioned approve of wearing tefilin at a public minyan CHM. Most of the names mentioned only permitted individuals in private or for visiting guests from Chutz l’Aretz.
MHY: before being motzi laaz on R’ Moshe that he would pasken a sheila without knowing the metzius, please read the teshuva. He writes, as I have quoted previously, that only if MANY people in EY wear tefilin it would be permitted. That is still not the case today.
Rainus: “Shu”t Beis Yosef, published in Jerusalem 5720, T’shuvos Rav Yitzchak Karo, siman 1”
Beis Yosef is teshuvos from R’ YOSEF Karo and siman 1 of the volume you mention is 7 pages discussing the minhag of sending sivlonos to a kalla. The entire volume seems to only be on Even HaEzer.
MHY: please list the “other minyonim that wear tefillin in Yerusholayim and Bnei Brak and perhaps elsewhere as well”
I question which Gedolim TRULY gave permission for tefillin in public. R’ Scheinberg and R’ Finkle were talking about bochurim who keep 2 days YT, R’ Vozner and R’ Ulman forbade the Yekke minyan in KS from wearing tefillin. The Gaavad only permitted in private as did R’ Eisemann.
So who are we left with? Only the Gaavad Erloi. So if you are a member of his community you should certainly follow your Rav, though it seems even the vast majority of his own community does not. If you are not Erloi there does not seem to be any grounds to wear tefillin in public.
It is true that the Yekke minyan in Beitar wears tefillin CHM, however one of the organizers told me that the Yekke minyan in Ramot, Yerushalayim does NOT because R’ Elyasiv told them it is assur. Also, the Yekke minyan in Kiryat Safer does not, based on a psak from R’ Ulman, a talmid of R’ Vozner. The minyan in Beitar is only ~15 men and would be difficult to classify as “following minhag avos”, since the majority of them are Baalei Teshuva or Geirim.
As CHM guest pointed out while true minhag Erloi is to follow minhagei Ashkenaz of the Chasam Sofer, today most of Erloi have become “Chassidim”. For example, minhag Erloi is to daven nussach Ashkenaz, but a neighbor of mine who is a chassid of Erloi told me that the only people in the shul with Ashkenaz siddurim are the chazzan and the Rebbe. I doubt if the cassiim wear tefillin CHM. So I will bl”n ask my neighbor, but I imagine only a VERY small number of people in Erloi actually are wearing tefillin.
Rainus: “R’ Moshe in OC 4:105.5 tells the questioner that he is permitted to desist from putting on Tefillin and is also permitted to continue doing so”
Yes, but ONLY IN PRIVATE
MHY: You are the one mixing issues. I have clearly stated that wearing tefillin IN PUBLIC is assur and in private is permitted but not required, as Reb Moshe writes. And yes “it is it is still unheard of to see one wearing tefillin IN SHUL on CHM”. Now do you understand that Igros Moshe permitts tefillin privately even if no one wears them but forbids them publicly except “efshar” if MANY communities began wearing them, which is clearly not the case.
Sorry, the Taz there does not even mention the Gemara daf 29. So I don’t see why you imagine he learns it any differently then the Magen Avraham does.
Also what do do you do with the Maharil etc, clearly there is no basis for your “theory”.
so right: he only asked about frum Yidden
da is right, you most certainly may not enter the tunnel. The relevance of “moving” however is not that you are “technically sitting in one spot each time he moves only for a millisecond”, because tumas ohel does not require sitting like bayis hamenuga. Rather the car should be its own ohel and protect you, except that since it is moving it is an ohel zaruk which does not block tumah.
so right: you addressed the theoretical legal loopholes, however the OP’s Q was who actively practices polygamy today and the answer is virtually no one.
MHY: Reb Moshe did not hold of your chiluk. He writes that the minhag of which shita to follow goes by minhag hamakom.
MHY: reread the Igros Moshe, because you are the one distorting his words. In the continuation of the teshuva what he REALLY writes is that “perhaps” now that many have moved to EY from Europe it is now common for many to wear tefillin CHM in which case it would be muttar. However anyone who has ever been in EY for YT can tell you that despite the waves of immigration the past 60 years, it is still unheard of to see one wearing tefillin in shul CHM.
1,000 and it didn’t pas yet. Anyways, it only expires if the Gedolim of that time want to uproot it. They don’t.
If you really hold there is NO minhag hamakom in EY and only minhag avos, then you get into a big problem. When Beis Din determined Rosh Chodesh based on eidim, chutz l’aretz kept 2 days YT as a safek. ~1500 Hillel HaKatan authored our calendar and since then 2 days YT in CLA is a minhag, in EY the minhag is to keep one day and in CLA 2. If one moves from CLA to EY with intention to remain we say his new minhag hamakom trumps 2000 years of minhag avos and one starts keeping only 1 day. If there is NO minhag hamakom today, as some here have maintained, then all Ashkenazim and most Sefardim who came to EY from other countries should maintain their minhag avos and keep 2 days YT.
Now that we have proven that there IS minhag hamakom in EY even today, it only remains to debate if the few individuals who wear tefilin prevent the 99.9% who do not from obtaining the status of minhag hamakom.
The Tur is clear that as a matter of fact, all Jews shaved their beards for Rosh HaShana. He didn’t NEED to address any issue.
Not “who can argue with ME”, who can believe these rumors about the Gedolim you names against an explicit Rishon and Chazal???
so right: I’m going with the Tur and Medrash, who could argue.
HaRav Moshe Feinstein zatzal writes in Igros Moshe OC 4:105.5 exactly as I have been saying. That one who intends to remain in EY and keeps 1 day YT should NOT wear tefillin Chol HaMoed, and he proves that we follow minhag hamakom even to be lenient on a d’Oraisa. I am surprised that the Gaavad didn’t acknowledge this teshuva.
Rav Gedaliah Eisemann (Mashgiach of Yeshivas Kol Torah) is the exception that proves the rule. Kol Torah was founded by and for Yekkes, and only one individual in the entire yeshiva wears tefillin.
Rav Finkle tell the BACHURIM to wear in the Ezras Nashim. They are ???? ????? and keep 2 days.
I don’t know why you assume a Catholic run University would not have many secular, Jewish students. Georgetown and Notre Dame both do.
It is evident from the Third Perek of Pesachim and from the Chochmas Adam 92 that minhag hamakom has precedence over minhag avos, that is also why 1 or 2 days YT depends on where you currently live. While it is true that Minhag Yerushalaim is exaggerated, in this case there is a confluence of the Sefardim, Chassidim and the Litvaks who were talmidim of the Gra and there IS a near unanimous minhag not to wear tefilin Chol HaMoed. Therefore one who is a permanent resident of Yerushalaim MUST follow minhag hamakom and stop wearing tefillin.
Please bring a source for this teshuva from the “uncle of the Beis Yosef” because the way you quote it has numerous inaccuracies.
holtzichfest: That’s the Gemarra I referred to, the Magen Avraham 8:3 understands it refers to the talis.
The Maharil, Rokeach and Rosh all write that the minhag was for bochurim NOT to wear taleisim based on the proximity of the pesukim ?????? ???? ?? and ?? ??? ??? ???. They are all from Germany and its seems much more likely that the original minhag was that ALL Ashkenazi communities did NOT wear taleisim until the chasuna and the Yekkes changed later for various reasons. Please bring a source for your speculation that it was for economic reasons, I have otherwise from older yidden born in Frankfort.
Today NO Jews marry multiple wives, if for no other reason then that is illegal in nearly the entire civilized world.
http://www.ask.revach.net is a great place to ask a Posek. They give you the name and bio of the Rav answering, and the question can be posted or responded to privately.
If you keep one day YT and intend to stay in EY, then you should stop wearing tefillin on Chol HaMoed as you are ??? ???? ????? (as I have done). If you keep two days and intend to return then you should put on tefillin at home privately after davening, since you are still obligated by your original minhag but since NOONE in EY wears tefillin Chol HaMoed it would be ?? ??????? to wear them in shul.
It seems it is neither “goyish” nor “beged isha”.