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Oomis – I agree Bt’s should only marry Bt’s.
Allsgr8 -We were discussing if you can treat DKA without insulin, not if insulin is part of the treatment. Fluids, potassium,
Na bicarb., Phosphate are all treatments. Don’t embarrass yourself by admitting you don’t know Bio-chem. Of course it’s gluconeogenesis.
Alpha-ketoacids (derived from glucogenic amino-acids) is part of the citric acid cycle which converts to Oxaloacetate. Oxaloacetate is a direct precursor of PEP. PEP then goes through a series of steps to produce Glucose as the end result. In other words -protein can be converted to sugar.
Philosopher -“What can be done in chinuch institutions, making sure that there are mentors kids can confide in, whatching out for signs that indicate internal turmoil i.e. slipping grades, being warm to the students etc., these are things that should be done to ALL students in our mosdos, all children of the Aibishter who need a little warmth and the feeling that someone cares for them, irrespective if they have ideas of going OTD or not.”
I agree; so how come they don’t do it? They didn’t do it in the story that I posted and they don’t do it in most frum schools.
I meant boluses, not basal. Why do you go high on a fast day?
Oomis -Because not one poster except for Aries have said what they do to Mekarev rechokim.
Yanky -While I don’t agree with your approach, if it’s working why not? But I do believe the others on this post, do nothing to mekarev rechokim and use the attidude of “let them come to me”, as an excuse.
Allsgr8 -For someone who knows his Bio-chem -you should tell us why your BG goes up. I know why, but you’re telling me that I’m embarrassed about my knowledge of Bio-chem. Btw, DKA can be treated with Sodium bicarb., fluids amongst others.
Tralala -How about lowering your boluses?
Mod 80- 1. We obviously aren’t going to experiment on a patient to find out, but it can be done. You can try it on yours’. 2. A. We start using fat for cellular metabolism. B. Glucose enters the cells through Glut 1- 14. Only Glut 4 responds to insulin to bring the Gluts to the membrane which are only in adipose and skeletal muscles.
After reading all the posts, I think both sides really agree with each other. Aries & others can’t admit that people are responsible for their actions at the time they reach Bar or Bas Mitzvah. Philosopher and others can’t admit even though they are responsible for their actions, perhaps teenagers have greater nisyonos than adults. Instead of bickering, everyone should say to themselves -what can I do today to make Yidden who aren’t close to Hashem, closer?! I applaud Aries in his effort in this way, we should all try to emulate him. I think a godol from the previous generation said -“There is a fire burning -everyone has to do their part in saving whatever you can from the fire!”
Mod -80: Like I said before -“We can control DKA without insulin, but insulin is what Hashem put in our bodies and that’s what we want to use -the natural hormone.” Even though you’re being sarcastic, it’s true -you definitely can survive with a heart-lung machine without a heart. I personally haven’t witnessed long term survival on it, but that yungerman who had H1N1, I think was on it for awhile & B”H he is alive and well. Parental nutrition is given all the time and people live for extended time and they don’t drink or eat. As far as living without a head, we haven’t yet figured that one out in modern medicine, but I do think the Gemorah says that a person can live with their head cut off as long as there is no wind. Don’t ask me to explain this Gemorah.
Parental? Like in nursing a baby? Or did you, perhaps, mean parenteral? –77
Allsgr8 -Oh I do understand Bio-chem. My mistake was that I thought everybody here did too. After reading all these posts, I understand why nobody understands me. I’m like talking Bio-chem 101 and you’re talking Bio-chem 1. But you are correct in that one thing (I must have been half asleep when I wrote it)- It’s not anaerobic respiration that causes the metabolic acidosis, it’s the ketones. Ketones from the breakdown of fat and other acids cause the metabolic acidosis found in diabetics. Also one thing I’ll try to explain, but after this please read up on your Bio-Chem before you respond to me. People do die from DKA; but what I was saying was- we have other treatments for DKA besides for insulin. So I was using this as a proof that insulin isn’t actually needed to sustain life.
Either you understand my point or you don’t, but it IS logical.
Allsgr8- I might not be the best health sciences student out there, but when I post I usually know what I’m talking about.
From the Diabetes Journal: “We conclude that in type 1 diabetes acute regulation of EGP by insulin is mainly via changes in GL while GNG changes little during the early hours of acute insulin excess or deficiency.” In English -lack of insulin causes Glucagon to increase to make more Glucose. Sorry, but I know a lot of medicine. Like I said before Insulin by itself isn’t necessary for life -it’s just easier to live with it. Acc. to you every patient that goes into DKA should die, but we do manage to control the DKA most of the time and then we give the insulin. We can control DKA without insulin, but insulin is what Hashem put in our bodies and that’s what we want to use -the natural hormone. A person who goes into hypoglycemia -the first thing we do is give glucose. If not available, an injection of Glucagon is given to release a lot of glycogen to glucose. It’s not that Diabetics can’t do it- it’s just that the process takes a long time in everyone. Giving a large dose of Glucagon releases a lot of glucose pretty rapidly, which is what they need in an emergency. Hypoglycemia is an emergency because the brain can’t function without sugar.
allsg8- That’s exactly what I said -what facts do I have to check? What wrong information did I post? I’ll say it again -it’s better to have a lower insulin level for those that give themselves insulin- so glycogenlysis can occur. In your pump language -less or no boluses.
Forever 1- I never mentioned basal, someone else did. Plus, you don’t need insulin to survive technically. People die from DKA, not from too much sugar. The by-product of anaerobic respiration is acid which makes the body go into metabolic acidosis. They also die from dehydration. So technically it’s not the insulin you can’t live without, it’s all the complications that are caused by sugar not getting into the cells for its energy.
Diabetics (Type 1 only) should technically lower their intake of insulin during a fast. After the body runs out of carb intake -the next step is glycogenlysis (converting glycogen to glucose). In order for this to occur two things happen in the body -1. insulin drops, 2. glucogen increases. Discuss this with your med practioner before actually doing it. Mod 80- Any comments Doc?
My other post got deleted -so here I go again: Kids are not more sensitive than any generation before, just in previous generations children had to keep everything inside. In our generation- there is more of a healthier psychological climate than ever before; the children don’t have the fear of adults like before, so they don’t bottle anything up!
Philosopher- “My point was that just as you apply the halachos of dan l’kaf zchus for those who have mental disease and go OTD, let’s also apply those halachas to the girls in your story and then nobody takes the blame for anything anymore.”
Let me repeat what I wrote back then -Some people who go OTD do so because of mental illness; some of this mental illness can be classified as a person who has a din of shoitah. They don’t have to be non-functioning to be in this class. I never said you have to dan every mentally ill person l’caf zecus. If you dan these girls l’caf zecus- all you can do is make it not a Maizid, but it’s still a Shogegg!
“Obviously the younger kids are, the less they can behave in the proper manner as they are not developed enough to make proper decisions. I’m not saying it never happens when the sudents are older either, but generally, frum students are better behaved than public school students.”
We all know that children only have a Yetzer Horah, but that is the purpose of Chinuch. This was obviously a breakdown in the chinuch of these girls. Now, whom to blame for this breakdown? Let’s see -it’s either the Rebbeyim/teachers or the parents, but certainly not the girls.
Be happy -You are correct to some degree. There definitely are overprotective parents who find no fault with whatever their kids do. This type of upbringing usually brings to spolied rotten adults, not usually OTD. Then there is the opposite extreme- they always find fault with their children even when the Rebbe/teacher are totally wrong. This type of behavior can most often bring to rebellion and OTD. The way a person in life has to be- is in the middle, like the Rambam says!
Philopsopher -You can blame people for going OTD, but if they were pushed -the pushers get most of the blame. BTW, do you know anyone personally who went off?
Remember technically if you don’t eat glucose, you don’t need insulin. Yea I know about gluconeogenesis, but you won’t need as much insulin as usual.
philosopher – I never mentioned Ruach Shtuss in any of my posts -you’re confusing me with someone else. Also, if life is not about finding excuses, why do you always find excuses for all those that in your head are always right? Also, it’s not an anomaly for kids to make fun of everything and anything; it’s a common, everday occurance in Yeshivas and Bais Yaacovs!
No B”H, not that I know of. Don’t blame me for Johns Hopkins research -I just brought it to everyone’s attention due to the fact that the leading cause of death is Cardiovascular disease. I obviously understood the implication of their research and that’s why I added in- it will be extremely hard to achieve!
Niacin should be taken under medical guidance only!
While I have posted in many other posts, that there are many reasons why people go off the derech and I feel that one of the solutions is to have mental health professionals in every yeshiva and bais yaacov; I would like to relate a story that I’m dealing with now. In the hospital, I’m helping treat a drug addict suffering from a bone infection. Like most of my patients, I talk to them. This one noticed my yarmulka, beard and payos and told me she learned in frum schools in Flatbush, not necessary Bais Yaacovs, but within the frum spectrum. She didn’t come from a frum background, but she probably would be frum from the schools- being that’s all she went to till the end of high school.
What turned her off was the fact that the other girls constantly made fun of her due to her lack of knowledge of frumkeit. So here we have another case due to the school(s). It might not be the direct fault of the Hanhalla, but they should have instilled the proper middos to the girls, not to make fun of others. I don’t think adminstrators can do a good enough job alone anymore, so I reiterate my call for mental health professionals in all schools.
One lesson that can be learned for everyone is -when you do something you don’t know what your action can cause in the future. This patient might ch’vs die (only in her 20’s); all due to drugs- due to going off the derech – due to her experiences in her school!
Previously, I posted A1c should be <6. Acc. to Johns Hopkins research, everybody should be <5 for optimal heart health. This will be extremely hard for anyone to achieve because acc. to another Johns Hopkins article most Americans (non-diabetic) are between 5 & 5.5%.
Sam- I never understand what you are saying. A shoitah doesn’t have to be non-functioning to be in this catergory. Other less levels are also included. Also, with the methology of teaching hearing-impaired nowadays, some poskin hold that deaf people can keep the mitzvos.
Nurse- You can actually eat the fish, not just take fish oil pills.
the.nurse- Another thing you can do for your heart health is to eat fatty fish and other sources of omega-3’s. From JAMA 2002:
“Conclusion- Among women, higher consumption of fish and omega-3 fatty acids is associated with a lower risk of CHD, particularly CHD deaths.”
Mod -80 -I don’t know anybody who would tell her to go on statins first. Also, acc. to conventional medical wisdom, she might not need to be treated at all with meds unless she has a fam Hx of CAD and a HDL of <45mg. Are you retired?
From Medicinenet: “HDL cholesterol: Lipoproteins, which are combinations of lipids (fats) and proteins, are the form in which lipids are transported in the blood. The high-density lipoproteins transport cholesterol from the tissues of the body to the liver so it can be gotten rid of (in the bile). HDL cholesterol is therefore considered the “good” cholesterol. The higher the HDL cholesterol level, the lower the risk of coronary artery disease.
Even small increases in HDL cholesterol reduce the frequency of heart attacks. For each 1 mg/dl increase in HDL cholesterol there is a 2 to 4% reduction in the risk of coronary heart disease. Although there are no formal guidelines, proposed treatment goals for patients with low HDL cholesterol are to increase HDL cholesterol to above 35 mg/dl in men and 45 mg/dl in women with a family history of coronary heart disease; and to increase HDL cholesterol to approach 45 mg/dl in men and 55 mg/dl in women with known coronary heart disease.
The first step in increasing HDL cholesterol levels is life style modification. Regular aerobic exercise, loss of excess weight (fat), and cessation of cigarette smoking cigarettes will increase HDL cholesterol levels. Moderate alcohol consumption (such as one drink a day) also raises HDL cholesterol When life style modifications are insufficient, medications are used. Medications that are effective in increasing HDL cholesterol include nicotinic acid (niacin), gemfibrozil (Lopid), estrogen, and to a lesser extent, the statin drugs.”
philosopher/clearheaded:
To say that in order to be Putter from mitzvos you have to be so severely impaired that they don’t know how to take of themselves is clearly against Chazal that says a Cheresh is Putter. What deaf person can’t learn basic life skills? What they can’t learn is mitzvos due to lack of communication. A person who can’t control themselves due to mental illness would be Putter in mitzvos. (Included in the din Shoitah.).She also puts in bold -“Otherwise my personal opinion is that no one has the right to do aveiros under the guise of mental disease or other excuses.”
Like this is some sort of Chidush. Either you fall into the catergory of Shoitah or not. People who go OTD don’t need excuses -they don’t care. People who claim to be frum -they need excuses. I can do whatever I want -it’s not my fault because of mental illness or whatever.
EDITED
HOT- Noone said T.S. isn’t genetic. “Their goal was never to prevent any genetic disease.” Maybe I should said “every”, to prevent confusion.
Dor Yeshorim purpose was to prevent diseases like Tay Sachs. They added other similar ones afterwards. Their goal was never to prevent any genetic disease. If you feel you might be a carrier for a certain disease, by all means you can go to your medical professional and have it checked out. If you want- you can have your prospective spouse checked out too, if he/she agrees.
Wolf -“It’s all in the balance. No parent should say “yes” all the time — but it’s just as true that no parent should say “no” all the time either. You’ve got to find the right balance for your children and your family.”
And I agree with you! But nowadays, people are more spoiled than previous generations. If you want to say because most people in previous generations were poor -that’s fine.
Clearheaded -Not everybody who is mentally ill can’t control themselves and are Putter. Some can and some can’t. Stop trying to paint every mental patient the same.
“Interesting how you feel you have the right to interpretate halacha and when I do it you say that I seem to think I’m a posek. Talk about double standards.”
How can you call this a double standard? Even if you went to Rabbi Weiss’s school and you are a Rabbah, you can’t pasken.
“What gives you the right to extrapolate and say that I think that I’m a posek?”
I didn’t extrapolate anything- you said -“mental disease is not an excuse for going OTD”. This is a P’sak Halacha.
“I have said that mental illness is not an excuse for dropping Yiddishkeit. When I say that they dropped their Yiddishkeit under the guise that “mental disease caused them to” that’s exactly what I mean – that they used their mental illness as a guise for dropping Yiddishkeit. You twist my words out of context.”
What your saying is -mentally people are so twisted, that they know they are mentally ill and that they know they really can control themselves, but they want people to think that they went off because of their mental illness (which isn’t the case acc. to you) in order to fool everyone why they went off. Or are you saying people like pretending they are mentally ill, when they are not. You actually need a mental health professional to diagnose mental illness. People or even YOU saying that guy’s crazy doesn’t mean anything. I never heard a person who was OTD say -“I’m OTD because I’m mentally ill”. People only admit to mental illness when they have a real diagnosis.
This sounds twisted to me and you call yourself “Clearheaded”!
Sam -A lot of mentally ill function just fine. Plenty of people with OCD have become normal due to professional mental help.
Not eating tons of Fat- doesn’t mean we are fasting!
I didn’t say that all OTD comes from mental problems. For #1 & 2- I didn’t define which mental ilness has a Din Shoitah -you did that by saying no mental disease is an excuse for OTD. I don’t know if people with mental disease would like to be called shoitim, but I was discussing if they fall into that catergory for Halacha purposes. You seem to think you are a poisek by saying no mental disease is an excuse -you’re not!
“I thought you’re not judging them? Anyway that’s you’re interpretation of the application of halacha.”
Of course I’m judging them -L’caf Zecus! You are correct, it’s my interpretation based on many years of learning. How many years did you learn in Yeshiva?
“I don’t look down on non-frum Jews in general and never indicated as such. I do look down on those that could so carelessly and callously shed all vestiges of our holy religion under the guise of “mental illness caused them to”.”
This is an Oxymoron. You equate people with mental illness with Mummer L’hachas. By saying “guise”- I guess in your mind there is no such thing as mental illness -something that was just made up by a bunch of shrinks!
Clearheaded -Saying that a person cannot go OTD for “mental reasons” is clearly K’neged Halacha. If you defined different levels of “mental reasons” it could be that it wouldn’t be k’neged. But to generally say all “Mental reasons” is. Didn’t you learn a Shoitah is Putter in mitzvos? Even a Cheresh is Putter. You seem to misinterpret Dan l’caf zecus. We were judging them up at the time they went off and at that time they were keeping mitzvos. You have no reason not to give these kids the benefit of doubt.
EDITED
Sam -Butter can’t heal OCD! Do you even know what OCD is?
Clearheaded -Did you ever hear about Dan l’caf zecus? Yea, people have bechira, but just maybe the nisayon was too great for them. How do you know how you would handle xyz mental problems. The gemorah says that if we would have the yetzer horah of avodah zorah, everyone would pick up their coattails to run after it. Al todin etc… Don’t judge up others until you are in their shoes. Every person and situation is different. Have the Jewish middah of Rachmonnus.
Sam -What’s your obsession with fat? Did your mother only cook with chicken schmaltz? Antibiotics are good for you, when you need it. Excess fat is never good for you!
Emoticon613 -Stigma for mental problems is very real in the frum community everywhere, not just NY. The yidden are way behind the goyim in this. It’s time we should stop and start having more Ahavas Chinum, then trying to find everyone Chesronos!
Allsg8 -It depends on the insulin. There are some which are ultra fast. Tralala -Get a endo that is uptodate on the pumps. Boluses are always before eating. If 20 min is too long try 15.
Wolf -Why do most (not yours) kids have it -because they need it or they want it? I’m not saying as a kid you can’t have things just because you want it, but there has to be a limit. I see very few parents nowadays with the means, saying no to their children. The sky is the limit.
Wolf -How many teenagers you know that don’t own cellphones or other electronic devices? It’s the “Me” generation and this can affect the person’s marriage!
I think most people nowadays are being brought up as selfish human beings. This causes a lot of friction or divorce in the frum community. When just a generation or two ago most Jews didn’t have the means to spoil their children, so they had much better chidren, which in turn these children had much better marriages.
JG- You are correct in saying that you have to get to the cause of it, but you only list one cause -I’m sure there are many. The best persons to get to the root of this problem are mental health professionals. Go to ones that specialize in eating disorders.
Of course someone can give someone else a vein, but why would it be needed- everyone has their own? YSGFK must of read somewhere the words “vein donation” -this doesn’t mean getting a vein from another human, this means harvesting a pts. own vein to do a surgical procedure such as a CABG. People have enough of their own veins to take, it wouldn’t be necessary to go elsewhere. Even if some are damaged, there will always be plenty of healthy ones. This has nothing to do with varicose veins.
As the DA are you doing an investigation of whom has the Net in the mountains? DoDodoDodo. (Spy music -for those wondering what dododo means.)
Sam -why don’t you tell us? No wait a minute -let me guess? Eh -NONE! No matter what I say -you ain’t changing -so why should I waste my time?!
Sam & tralala- I’m not a nutrionalist, but I know of a web site that does food planning. I’m not pushing this one over others, just I know about this one. Reader’s Digest has a site called Change One. Here they help people lose or maintain their weight. They even have a section for diabetics. I don’t know how much they charge, but I trust these people for accuracy. Their recipes include all sorts of different types of food, not just veggies!
Yea, but the spirtual void for dreying is caused by feminism. I don’t know what the spiritual void for compulsive shopping is. Maybe it’s just a mental illness.
Sam -Ok, you’re right -High fat isn’t dangerous. That’s what you want to hear, isn’t it?