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Ofcourse -The abuse, of course! When people say hypocrisy, I think that it’s not just the hypocrisy, but how it affects the teen. In other words -abuse. Kids see plenty of hypocrisy in the Goyish world, eg. white collar crimes can get you life imprisonment, but if you kill someone -you can sometimes get away with only a few years. But they aren’t turned off by it.
I’ll give an example and it’s Not based on any real event: A yeshiva has a Rebbe who abuses kids. The yeshiva gets complaints, but tends to ignore them. The same yeshiva finds out that a kid watches movies at home and throws the kid out. Not only will the kid thrown out be disillusioned, but so will all his peers. It’s not per se that the problem comes from hypocrisy, but such a kind of hypocrisy is abuse. The kids realize they are less of a person than this Rebbe. They are treated differently. So people are saying hypocrisy is the main reason, but it’s not really the hypocrisy, it’s how they are treated differently than others (abuse). If a person thinks into what I’m saying, they will realize that I have a point! Abuse has many forms and it can come from the home or the school! I think everyone knows all the different forms!
Wolf – I’ve been here too long. Even you have become predictable. I knew you were going to say that. While there are people (Mussar seforim) who do learn that it has to be a shelo lishma that can come to a lishma, your case is definitely one that can come. In other words, the actual type of proper intention can come. So if this second he means only for reward, the next second he can mean Lishma! It doesn’t even matter if he ever comes to lishma as long as his Shelo lishma was possible to come. Let me give you an example of shelo lishma that could never come to lishma (my own).
Tanach talks about Eliyahu and Har Carmel. Let’s say one guy says you know what I’m going over to help Eliyahu light his Mizbeach (altar) to sacrifice to Hashem. Ya’know why because I’m going to prove to everyone that there is No Hashem ch’vs and it’s only the Baal (Avodah Zora)! Because my sacrifice will never go up. Even though this guy is sacrificing to Hashem, his intention is so bad it will never come to Lishma. Like my example?
He should have made the date his designated driver. Better safe than Sorry!
Feter Shmelka – “The OTD crisis is directly attributable to the two-income family that takes the Mother out of the home and away from the family.”
While a lot of people agree with this type of thinking, I don’t know why this has anything to do with OTD kids. There is a science called statistics, were a person has a hypothesis and then tests out their hypothesis with a study to see if it’s true. You have a hypothesis, but because you want to be right, you just say your right without any proof. I haven’t done any studies, but just from my family alone I know your hypothesis isn’t true. I come from a family were both parents were working parents and none of the kids are OTD, but I have a cousin whose mother never ever worked a job and he is OTD! I like the theory of abuse and actually there are a lot of professionals who agree to this hypothesis.
I B’H have two.
I think in a CR it’s next to impossible to hate or ignore the person. Yes, you can do that to their posts, but not to that person because you really can’t know that person until you know them in real life. In real life, it usually happens that you first hate the person and then you ignore them.
Wolf – Actually Chazal answered your question: “Mutav Sheh Lomaid Torah V’osek B’mitzovs shelo L’shma -she metoch shelolisma Boh lishma.” (It’s good to learn Torah and do Mitzvos without the proper intention, because even so eventually you’ll come to do them with the proper intention.) Your OP is a classic example.
My pet peeve is when people do things and talk it into themselves they are only doing it for good, but something evil comes out of it. Then they say- that outcome had nothing to do with them. Even if they truly meant it L’shem Shomayim- it’s even worse than the catergory of a Mitzvah Haboh B’aveira!
Adorable – It’s all part of growing up. Everyone is always learning new things & sometimes we aren’t so “innocent” anymore. Sometimes this is a good thing and sometimes it’s bad.
Daas Yochid -“We know what you think, you blame the schools.”
And all schools are blameless? What about schools who protect abusers? Imagine if you or your child were a victim and to add insult to injury, not only don’t they care but they deny you Justice!
justlooking – You missed the point. Whether he is here all the time or not, topics go off on tangents all the time. I understand why you started this topic, but this is a public forum. Some posts go off totally from the topic. Just to make you aware.
berny – You are correct, but it seems you are new here in the CR. The way it works in the CR -the topics go off on tangents. Some tangents are related – as you can see here with a medical discussion about TS. And sometimes the tangents have absolutely nothing to do with the topic!
Dave – Our Gov. (C.C.) says he isn’t running and I believe him. Even if Paw would be the most honest man in America, he still doesn’t stand a chance because he’s a no-name. If Gingrich gets back to the way he used to be as Speaker, I think the conservatives could fall behind him. But if it’s Romney, be prepared for another four years of Obama!
Always & anon. – So you thought my question was so important that it needed an answer right away before Simchas had a chance to respond. But there is a deeper reason than what is posted -that if the poster Simchas is recommending that Turner syn patients try to become pregnant; so to this I posted -“No one with Turners Syn should undertake becoming pregnant without discussing it with a Rov whom is an expert in medical issues!” People with this syn have a lot of issues; infertility is by far not the most important one!
To berny #1 – No, I do not!
To berny #2 – No, I don’t!
Always – Why is it “We”? Is “Simchas” another one of your Screen names or do you know this poster and feel they can’t answer for themselves- so you have to be their spokesman?!
anon for this – Quite possible, but why can’t Simchas speak for him/herself?
Btw -No one with Turners Syn should undertake becoming pregnant without discussing it with a Rov whom is an expert in medical issues!
Always – Well it would be nice if Simchas would tell us want he/she meant. I really don’t think you have to be his/her spokesman, as long as that blogger can answer themselves!
Gefen – The net we enjoy as opposed to High School grads!
And obviously we are here blogging because we don’t hold like the ones who say internet is ossur especially blogging to all ages and genders!
Fritz – Some women can’t drive. The men are the Baal Hagolah. But, I think they should ban or stop visiting day anyway, nothing to do with Tzinus.
Always – Sorry, not like some posters here, I actually get my info from med books, not from Google. And I’m still wondering what Simchas meant in his/her post!
Always – Wrong post! I was talking about the post right before mine!
Dave – Why go with Pawlenty? He is as famous as Huckabee. At least Huckabee had enough Sechel to give it up. The only one that has a chance to beat Romney is Gingrich. If Romney wins the GOP, he will lose to Obama. Centrist candidates can’t bring out the vote of the conservatives and Obama will win again. I do feel Gingrich has a chance against Obama. The conservatives will wake up and vote for him because they don’t want another 4 years of Obama, but they ain’t coming out in force for Romney!
Simchas – What does your post have to do with Turner’s syn?
Adorable – I agree with mdd. I don’t know what you mean by innocence. I thought it meant you did some sort of aveira. But my post was to tell you and everyone -in life everyone does aveiros. A person should never give up -we can always do teshuva. One person isn’t better than the next one -we all have things to work on!
wallflower -Can’t get in a word edgewise. Can’t hear myself think because of the loudness.
Whether right or wrong, I’m glad they have such a policy. You think I wanted to go to listen to a bunch of boring speechs? And to the poster who just says -“well you don’t have to go”, if they allow men -then you do have to go. How do you think your daughter will feel if she is the “odd ball” out, because her father didn’t come?
I’m scared of dogs because I was jumped by one as a kid. But if I could afford one, I wouldn’t mind having one for protection, like a German shephard.
If it would have ended, I’d have finally got that crown and those slaves that I’ve been yearning for -for so long!
Because it’s a day In the Omer that is celebrated! We don’t call it Shloshim v’sholosh yom L’omer, it’s called LAG B’omer!
On a side note, due to the lack of funds going to the docs themselves, a lot of good surgeons are leaving regular surg and going into plastics. What I must be crazy -medical costs have been increasing the last 30 years straight? Yea, but what the Clintons started with the HMO’s and changing the whole insurance business, decreased the money to docs and everyone else in the medical field. So where does all the profit go? To the insurance and HMO execs. And I’m sure gov. gets their kickbacks. Before any politician tells you -I’m changing things for your benefit -figure it out -if it’s true?! So if the next time ch’vs you need a trauma surg and it only turns out to be a resident with limited experience -don’t complain -you put these people (politicians) into office! You get what care you pay for! And if you think I don’t know what I’m talking about, how come so many hospitals closed in the last few years with the pop. increasing, not decreasing?
Mod 80 – I agree. I got the impression the OP was saying that wearing beautiful-natural looking wigs is equal to Not covering your hair at all!
Blinky -Lesson learned -Do your civic duty. If you actually can’t do it, most of the time they will let you off.
Both by Esther and Lady Liberty, green isn’t their natural color!
Definitely get an opinion from an endocrinologist!
What I don’t understand is this mentality is you see/look at something inappropiate, then you are unpure (Timtum Halev). Every Aveira causes Timtum, not just your eyes. So think about it -next time you speak LH, do something not nice, you have a little more Timtum. Some people won’t look at anything that could bring to Timtum like they will only read very frum newspapers and they won’t eat anything except the best Hechshers, but when it comes to things like LH, they can’t stop. It’s very nice what they do about eyes and eating, but a lot of them have bigger Timtum than those who aren’t so Makpid on those type of things. My point is -don’t fool yourself that you are better or worse than anyone else -we all have areas we need to work on!
Popa -It’s not just Chassidim. In EY- alot of Sfardim & Litvaks make Bon-fire parties the nite of Lag B’omer too. I guess the Litvaks over there aren’t Kalt. (They get warmed by the fire.)
Covering one’s hair after marriage is required by Halacha. Dressing not so “out there”, including these types of shaitels are gedarim. Gedarim are something that is the way people are brought up with. You can’t compare the two. If you were brought up to only wear a tichel -fine, but don’t go tell everyone else they have to also. The same thing with these long human-hair shaitels. If you feel that isn’t the way a frum person should dress, so fine -don’t. But don’t put your gedarim on others!
If you have a good friend and you want to tell her what you believe in, then you can. But you can’t tell the public at large –
“If you wear a long human-hair shaitel, then it’s just like your hair isn’t covered”!
Aries -“Friends should NEVER know you better than your family. Even though you think your best friend will be your friend for life. and they can and sometimes do turn on you”
How true!
And sometimes friends can destroy your marriage and you end up totally off the derech -which happenned to my ex-wife. But don’t worry, they meant well!
Always runs -I’m sure this isn’t the first time you’ve met such a person, but not going into whether she was entitled to ask her questions or not, why did you let her go on? Even if her questions were appropiate, but you don’t feel comfortable answering them, then don’t. This obviously got your goat, so why play the part of I must answer because she asked? Why are we so scared to act the way we feel? I could go on & on, but I think you understand my point!
“So enthusiastically with a bounce to my voice, (even though I am already hesitant and skeptical about “being checked up on” I repsond joyfully yes how excited it all is…etc.”
But WHY??
Adorable/ cutie pie – And what about me?
Of course – It’s not that new schools are opening all the time, is the problem -some of these old schools are the problem. I know plenty of old schools whom have the same mediocre staff or worse for years. This is why new schools are opening -people don’t want change in the old schools. Some of these new schools are doing a much better job than some old schools! Doesn’t mean that every new school is better – I said some!
Wolf – I agree with you, but the world is that everyone in society has to think they are better than the next guy. What do you do if you’re just a plain person? Go after Yichus or money and then you can think you’re something special. I know people with Yichus with No middos, but does that stop them from getting married? No, because so many people just want Yichus! Middos is less important or not important at all. The same thing is true with families that have money. I don’t or ever will envy these people. They have no clue what life is all about!
“Pimary maalos: ????/??????, ???? ????, ???? ?????
Secondary maalos: Yichus, looks, money.”
This is true, but not reality. What I find the two things most people care about is either Yichus or Money, or both!
Mamala -Who are you to judge that the yeshiva is wrong? You haven’t even heard their side yet. And if the kid deserves to be thrown out (which you have no idea), then the kid should be thrown out even on the last day. Yeshivos shouldn’t throw out their Principles just because the kid’s schooling is over. I’ll tell you what a college would do. If they found out a student cheated majorly, they would revoke his credits/degree even many years later! I don’t know what happenned in this case, maybe the boy was having an innocent convo and maybe he wasn’t. If you don’t like the way Yeshivos nowadays are run, you can always start your own. Or better yet give enough money to the 2 MO schools that are closing so that they don’t have to close!
Aries – I’ve seen plenty of hypocrisy in my life and I didn’t go OTD. My ex, who saw the same -did. Why? Because of our different upbringings. People are given different Nisoyonos in life. Sometimes it’s a difficult school, sometimes it’s other things. The only way to survive is to fall back on your Emunah and Bitachon. Blaming Yeshivos or whomever, won’t change anything. The only one you can change is yourself!
Of course – Exactly. Why wouldn’t a modern school take an “A” student who was thrown out for talking to girls? Especially when most of the students in MO schools talk to the other gender.
Aries – Are you just guessing or do you know cases of MO yeshivos refusing to take boys who were thrown out from regular yeshivos for minor infractions, like talking to girls?
Introvert and can’t stand the loud, macher type!
Of course – I don’t think that the orgs. that do Kiruv also do the OTD kids. They have created special orgs. for this. I also don’t think that all the OTD kids are from bad mechanchim, there are many factors. This is why I suggested in the other thread, if ch’vs a kid gets thrown out, the parents should move quickly to get the kid in another yeshiva, even a MO yeshiva, before the kid gives up on Yiddishkeit!
That I don’t actually have to get up and go the Yeshiva’s/Shul’s
Coffee room to “shmooz”. I can be the ultimate “couch potato”!
SJS – “I’m laughing that everyone wants to send the “problem” Yeshivish kids to MO Yeshivas.”
I know. Isn’t it amazing that we still consider MO schools within the Frum velt (world)? I just hope the time doesn’t come when we consider MO, just like we consider the Reform & Conservatives!