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Derech HaMelech – “I don’t understand why there is so much emphasis on the actual “marriage”. Regardless of whether they are “married” or not they will still do their aveiros. The “marriage” isn’t a heicha timtzah to it. Why should it matter whether they are allowed to get “married” or not?”
2 Reasons:
1. The Talmud says that this is one of the crimes for which the Great Flood was visited upon the world and that one of the reasons Hashem doesn’t bring destruction to the world is because Goyim who are Toeivas don’t write Kesubos one to another. (This means legal marriage!) Are you in favor of destruction of the world?
Rainus -“Same gender arrangements between women though, cannot be considered immoral. There is not even a clear Issur for Jews to engage in this practice. The Talmud deems it disgusting and shameful but the courts are not empowered to enforce their separation. Although this clearly demonstrates our duty to shun such behaviour, it can be argued that something that is merely shameful and disgusting for a Jew, without minimizing its gravity, may be acceptable for gentiles.”
You are so off the beaten path of Judaism, it’s very sad.
It’s clearly Ossur for Jewish women to engage in this behavior, either D’orysa or D’rabbonom. Even for a Goy, two women together might not be Ossur because it’s not one of the 7 Mitzvos Bnai Noach, but it’s a disgusting, low behavior. You see this from the Torah about Mitzrayim. Most Goyim who believe in G-d don’t want to do something that G-d considers an abomination, this includes two women together!
sms007 – “Yet that didn’t convince him… ideas anyone?”
I’m sure your husband considers himself Frum; well acc. to S’A he has to, otherwise he is Oiver an Issur. I just happenned to see the Halochos of Maakeh in S’A and this applies to anything dangerous. There is no R’Moshe’s Heter like on smoking on this. If you put yourself in Sakana whether- not wearing helmets, seatbelts or doing anything dangerous, you are Oiver!
Bezalel – “You’re just contridicting yourself.”
Let me see, I really don’t think there is a contradiction. I’ll explain to ones who don’t understand – Even if a single woman finds a Heter to have children without marriage, and this Heter is Ousgehalten, people should not spread this around because this will cause some women to lose some of their desire or all of their desire to get married. Because now they have another way to have kids!
SD -“Any therapist worth their salt will tell you that not everyone is a candidate for therapy. In a situation where both partners have an interest in working to make a better marriage, I doubt that many people would say that they should get divorced. However, in a situation where one party is too self centered to acknowledge that they have a problem and carries on with attitude and behavior that speaks of lack of concern for anyone else (even those whom they profess to love), that person is not a candidate for therapy (and would likely never agree to go).”
What you post makes sense. If the therapist says give up -fine.
But this isn’t true in a lot of cases. I was willing to go for more therapy and so was my ex, but her “friends” convinced her not to try anymore and that she is better off getting divorced.
After the divorce even her “friends” see how wrong they were!
Haifagirl -“If you ignore the part about other legal stuff (which was parenthetical anyway), that’s what he is suggesting. Two girls become roommates. They each adopt a child. They each have a built-in babysitter.”
The S’A says two women together (Toeiva) is either Ossur M’drabbanim or D’orysa. The S’A also says that two men can be Meyached together -be roomates because Jews aren’t Chosut (accuse)on Toieva. This would be the same for two women. Once you go beyond the boundry of two people just being roomates, like for example this case, two women acting as parents, even if right now they aren’t doing anything Ossur, I see no reason how Yichud would be Mutter. You are putting two people in a entirely different situation than roomates, they are having a very intimate relationship -raising a child together. This would definitely be Ossur because of Yichud!
AZ – Get a 40 y.o. guy to marry a 40 y.o. woman -how many do you think will agree with this?
SD -“First of all, if a parent is at the point of not being frum, they will not refrain from divorce in order to keep the children in a frum home.”
Well what about the scenario- were perhaps the Parent would remain Frum or remain Frummer if they remained in the marriage? Or your only concern is happiness and no discord in the family?
“Secondly, there cannot be a general rule about that because every home is different.”
Ok, so why are you generalizing that everytime there is discord- the kids will go OTD? I got news for you, a lot of the families from my parent’s generation had plenty of discord and most of the kids didn’t go OTD!
There is a very big Machla in our generation with e/o pushing divorce instead of pushing both parents into therapy to try to make it work. E/o is all of a sudden a marriage expert and they know that things are always better after divorce. The grass is always greener on the other side! I got news for you – 9 out of 10 times, divorce is the wrong solution!
I think that a lot of Frum people feel they can’t make it in our society, if they aren’t part of a clique!
Sof Davar – Does this include if the parent raising the kids in peace, isn’t going to be Frum or not that Frum anymore?
Even if Mutter, it’s definitely Ossur to spread this around. So now more women won’t find any need to get married and be Oiver the Issur in S’A!
You won’t believe how many Reshayim out there -telling others to get divorced. Why don’t they practice what they preach and get divorced themselves?
GAW – “want to have a family should pair up (as friends of course,”
I don’t think this would be Mutter. Do you have any Rabbi/Rov that holds this way?
OOmis – Maybe Pacman and AZ have MPD. In other words, same guy, but multiple personalities!
To the single girls/women:
“@ pacman: where is the emunah in your first post?”
“Maybe you should just stop following the Torah, because you are missing the most important point. Emuna and Bitachon. There are enough singles around for every person to get married.”
Emunah & Bitachon is always tied up with Hishtadlus. There probably are enough single men for almost everybody to get married. But some of these men are divorced, some are older, etc.
Are you broadening your horizons to include these in your dates?
To everyone:
“So perhaps he can enlighten us as to what to do about the girls who will never be able to get married since the current generation no longer has enough bachelors for them all.”
I so disagree. I don’t know if e/o out there can get married, but most of them who won’t have that possibility. I posted on the Rus thread, if girls would start considering divorced guys, 40 & 50 year olds, the prospect for marriage would be greatly increased. But it’s taboo. Aizeh Hachachom Horoyeh Ess Hanoyled. Wake up girls in your late 20’s and 30’s, if you don’t widen your considerations, you might not ever get married and that means -No kids (in our circles)!
From J. Pollard. org:
“Why Pollard Doesn’t Apply for Parole
Hillel Fendel – (IsraelNN.com) – 20 Elul 5767, September 3, 2007
Rabbi Pesach Lerner, Executive Vice President of the National Council of Young Israel and a long-time activist on behalf of Jonathan Pollard, explains why Pollard has not applied for parole.
The Question
A recent Arutz-7 article on Pollard, reporting the National Council of Young Israel-sponsored call-the-White House campaign and reasons why Jonathan Pollard must not be abandoned by the Jewish community, provoked one reader’s curiosity regarding Pollard’s chance for parole. The reader wrote a talkback as follows: “I followed [the National Council of Young Israel] request to send a letter to President Bush. The response from the White House was that Mr. Pollard was eligible for parole, but had not requested parole. Does anyone reading this understand this response? Why would Mr. Pollard not request the parole?”
Rabbi Pesach Lerner, who has visited Pollard in prison four times, [J4JP Correction: Rabbi Lerner has visited Jonathan Pollard numerous times; 4 times in recent weeks alone!], responded with a lengthy comment of his own. Rabbi Lerner wrote that though it’s true that Pollard is eligible for parole, “the implication that there is a possibility that he would receive parole is totally incorrect.”
Parole is Impossible
Pollard’s “pro-bono attorneys have done and continue to do everything that can be done, within the legal field, to gain Jonathan’s freedom,” Rabbi Lerner wrote. “They are outstanding professionals, stymied only by a judicial system that is strongly biased against Jonathan… The [relevant] law enforcement and intelligence agency officials… have indicated that they would oppose parole… Parole is a virtual impossibility under those circumstances. Every legal expert the Pollard camp has spoken to, and there have been many, told them that the parole board would reject Jonathan’s request out of hand.”
However, even worse than the rejection itself is the fact that it could lead to a 15-year delay before the next parole request can be submitted. This 15-year “set aside” means “the case cannot be revisited for another 15 years,” the rabbi writes, which would be “catastrophic for any clemency request that might be made within that time period. In short, a parole request is absolutely the wrong avenue to follow.”
In addition to asking for Divine intervention, Rabbi Lerner writes, “the only ‘human’ chance is for the president [Bush] to be approached by the right people, with the right documentation, at the right time, and we are working in that direction. The moment we feel there is a chance for clemency, a request will be filed.”
Noting that Pollard’s health is not good and that he suffers from numerous illnesses, Rabbi Lerner states the importance for “everyone to continue to call the White House, daily, 202-456-1414 or 202-456-1111, and request that the president release Jonathan Pollard; 22 years in prison is enough! The calls have been noticed. The president is aware that Pollard is an issue the community cares about, and that is important.”
Regarding requests for clemency, Pollard’s lawyers have explained that the government has refused to allow them – even though they have top security clearances – to see the documents that were submitted to the sentencing judge prior to sentencing in 1987. “Without access to that file,” the lawyers write, “people… know that they have free reign to say absolutely anything about Mr. Pollard without any risk that they will be contradicted by the documents. Applying for parole without access to the court file and in the face of unremitting hostility… in the intelligence community, would be significantly less effective than an application on the basis of the complete court record.”
Now Mod -80, I’m calling you to close this topic, since you are in that mood.
Sarah – Does S.E. take you an hour or the whole davening?
Mod -80 – Even though logically I can agree with mewho, I’d never post it. I try to keep my posts practically helpful. I know, I don’t always succeed.
2qwerty & apushatayid –
“Do you give out/pay money to those who meet your guidelines? And if i dont agree with your choices am i allowed to steal it from you?”
“To you, not to the government.
It is a temporary form of assistance until one is able to be self supporting. That is how the government looks at it, even if you do not.
Does halacha equate the taking of tzedaka with earning parnassa? Does halacha require a gabbai tzedaka to give money to someone who comes to collect his daily “paycheck”? “
I’ll repeat myself one more time. The gov. doesn’t have the right to make guidelines as opposed to a Gabbai Tzedokoh or anyone else. They only would if they had the Din of D.M.D.! This is the reason also why you don’t have to pay taxes. I don’t recommend holding up Fort Knox, even if that wouldn’t be considered stealing. (Which it might, even acc. to me, but I’m not sure.)
Newhere – “I am a firm believer that we should be allowed to express our views without censorship”
You are speaking hypocrisy. One second you say, you don’t believe in censorship and the next second you say I should be censored. If you would have bothered to read all the posts, you would have seen, I based my opinion on Halacha. If you have any Proof why the Halacha isn’t like me -post it! Calling for me to be censored, is your desperation -that since you vehemetly disagree and you have no proof that I’m wrong, the next best thing is to keep me quiet. Why don’t you move to a country that believes in censorship? How about Iran?
“When is it permissible to discuss others’ problem (if ever)?”
If you truly are going to help the person with what they need. You Will look for a shidduch for them. You Will go out and collect $ for them. So and so on.
Yes, unfortunately many people enjoy speaking about others, which is pure LH.
Ex. -Even though it’s innocent -how many people when asked what is with so and so, will answer -Oh, he/she is divorced? Who gave them the right to spread this around, unless they are really trying to help the person. If the person asking is just curious and isn’t really going to make any effort to help, then the correct response is – “I don’t really know what is going on with so and so”!
They have nowadays a special car alarm that works with kids in the back. I don’t know how exactly it works, but if you leave the kid in the back, it goes off. Anybody, who has young kids, should consider buying it. I don’t think that they are that expensive. You definitely need to get one, if you’re the absentee type. There is nothing that is foolproof, but this seems to be the best insurance. Even though a few different products have been developed, after a web search it seems the only one that actually made it to market is Baby Alert child minder system. The only place that I know is selling these is Baby Alert online. They have two systems, both starting at $70 for one kid. I also think the auto stores who put in alarms, are now putting in back-seat baby alarms which are hard-wired.
2qwerty – Let’s see -What is Geneivas Daas? S/o is making you think something without actually lying. Lying is actually saying something to manipulate their mind. Lying has to be worse than Geneivas Daas, so where you are allowed to lie – you can do Geneivas Daas!
apushatayid -“Somehow you equate tzedaka and government programs with parnassah.”
Wrong, taking Gov. programs isn’t Tzedaka, it’s Parnossa.
“they said one may be mishane”
Play on words – that means lie.
“for the sake of shalom and extended it to, one may lie for the sake of parnassah.”
Wrong again, lying for the sake of Parnossa would be under the umbrella of Sholom. You have every right to that money, whether you comply with their guidelines or not!
HL -“the smartest are sitting in yeshiva (yes, along with hypocrits who dont understand, bla bla) because a smart person will see the smartest, most logical, beautiful thing in the world-Hashem and Torah.”
And people who left Yeshiva and are making a Parnossa don’t see Hashem and Torah?!?! And they are all dumb too!?!?!
zahavasdad -“How does it affect you that someone you dont know, never met, never will meet and only heard about does something in their private home.”
I’ll repeat it one more time. The passing of this law will bring a decree of destruction on this country from Hashem, a little closer. This will affect e/o, not just me. And I’m not the one saying this, Chazal are!
apushatayid – I’m not extending it to anything. If you want to extend it -go ahead. I said what I said with regards to Gov. programs. Stop trying to bait me on other things because you don’t like what I said.
This is a common problem in the Yeshiva World, (not web site), that people like to try and bait you because they disagree with your opinion on something!
zahavasdad – “Avodah Zorah is also prohibited according to the laws of Bnei Noach and I dont see anywhere here going to protest a Hindu or Buddist temple (Assuming it wasnt sold be Young Israel)”
Again, we protest things that affect us, not everytime a Goy doesn’t keep his/her’s Mitzvos.
I think a law that can cause the destruction of the US perhaps affects us!
miI – “My personal opinion is that the Pollard case in particular is not so much an issue of anti-Semitism as much as a political game with Israel, but that’s a different story!”
Ok, so they are still holding a guy to put pressure on Israel, presumably to get them to give in on the “Peace process”. Do you know of any other person in the whole prison system that they are still holding him because they use the guy for a political game?
I guess the reason he wasn’t even allowed to visit his sick father or go to the funeral was because this helps with their political game. Perhaps you are being blinded by your Negious; I for one have only one answer for the Gov.’s action with regard to J. Pollard and that is that they are Antisemitic!
apashutayid – “Is it permitted to lie so that you can get a good shidduch (if the shver is rich, does the parnassah heter apply)?”
I’m not a Poisek to judge up every case, but I can tell you that people lie in the above case all the time.
“If I damage your property and I don’t have the funds to pay you back, can I lie to you and deny it under the parnassah heter?”
You’re lying to prevent you from paying the guy what you owe him anyway.
“If my wife wants be at home, but I want to hang out and eat chulent and sushi with the chevra, can I lie to her and tell her the car broke down to maintain shalom?”
Again, people do this all the time.
I’m not here to give people Heterim for every case you can think of, I was talking in a specific case. Ask your Rabbi all your Shailas that you posted above. I’m not the CR’s Poisek. Comprende?
charliehall – “The Rosenbergs were NOT innocent!”
True, they were spies, but they were Innocent of passing atomic secrets to Russia. Read my post to the Kilobear. The Judge only passed the Judgement of death on them due to the passing of atomic secrets. This is called a miscarriage of Justice!
Name other people (who aren’t Jews) who got killed by the gov. and their case was a miscarriage of Justice!
Hakatan -“It’s unbelievable how so many otherwise intelligent people have their heads in the sand about this issue.”
1. Who says they are intelligent? 2. Even if they are, the Y.Hora makes them blind.
“If you live in NY and care about (acting and) raising kids properly, you do not want this bill to pass, no matter how little the effect may be on you, personally.”
Wrong, I don’t live in NY and don’t want this to pass. I’m very upset that NJ even has “unions”! The more states that pass this perversion, the more the country goes to pot. In my opinion, anybody who voted for Cuomo the H–o (which they called his father) can’t be considered a Frum Jew (if that is what they consider themselves). The people fool themselves and say Hashem doesn’t really care what the Goyim do, so why should we? Wrong, at some point there will be the breaking point and Hashem will bring destruction here. So either, the Jews are suicidal or they are Kofrim and don’t believe Chazal when they tell us that Toieva marriage brings destruction to the world!
The new place on 38th is very nice. People have gotten married in the Garden State Arts center -exit 116 on the Parkway if you live in Jersey.
I discussed this many times in previous topics here in the CR. To refresh e/o’s memory the reason you have to make a Machoh against Toeiva marriage is because it’s much worse than just being a Toeivahnik. We previously quoted that Hashem didn’t bring the destruction of the world until the Toievaniks wrote Kesubos to each other. So how can you stand by and watch the destruction of the world? It’s probably Ossur to say about their marriage plans -live and let live. This brings destruction to the world, so you can’t be quiet.
mischiefmaker -All these diseases are treated step wise, which I’m sure you didn’t know. Take the time, since you’re on the net anyways and research your disease. I believe you’re at the stage for the next step. What the next step is will depend on your Derm. If you really are in a lot of pain, get an appt. ASAP with your Derm. In the meantime take Ibuprofen for the pain. Your PCP won’t treat your psoriasis because you are already seeing a specialist.
Kilobear – “When they opened the KGB archives in the early 90’s, I was living in Moscow. The information in the archives made it very clear that both Rosenbergs, of less than blessed memory, were guilty as charged.”
Were you privy to the real docs, not the ones they just showed to the world? Like were you in the gov. at that time? At that time, a lot of people were claiming that the execution was based on anti-semitism. It now appears that this was true. I personally until yesterday did any research on them, but once this was brought up here, I did. Lots of info is now available immediately due to the net. Now the Judge said that he is giving them the death penalty because of the atomic secrets.
The brother who got ten years, said he lied and involved his sister to protect his wife, but his sister Mrs. Rosenberg was really innocent. The spy from Mother Russia whom Mr. Rosenberg passed info to -said -“none of the info contained any nuclear data”. Yes, he was a spy and maybe his wife helped him, but acc. to the reasoning of the sentencing Judge at that time, they executed two innocent people. Two lower level spies were executed in America because the Court system based a decision on something other than the facts. Why did this happen? Perhaps the groups screaming at that time were correct, it was a case of antisemitism! Even Charlie admits, the Country wasn’t so much into the cold war at that time, so this abuse probably wasn’t due to the Commie witch hunt!
Charlie – “The Rosenbergs were given a penalty prescribed by law. They had a fair trial.”
True, they had the legal right to execute them. But how could anyone call the slaughter of two innocents -“a fair trial”?
“Go find a country where Jews are treated better. You won’t find one.”
I have no idea where Jews are treated better -I haven’t lived in every country, but then again, neither have you!
“If D.M.D. doesn’t apply in the US, it doesn’t apply anywhere.”
Well, perhaps it doesn’t!
“Frankly, I would be happy if the courts would be tougher on business on religious accomodation cases…”
This last paragraph is the clincher. Clinton and Obama aren’t liberal enough for you. So when are you going to stop blaming the Republicans for everything wrong in this country? When the Commies make a revolution and this becomes Mother Russia, who are you going to blame then?
And I was talking in my legal case about they didn’t apply the law as written. For some reason everytime I bring this up you jump on your soap box and scream that the law has to be stronger
and this is the fault of the Republicans. Perhaps. But, my beef is that our Court system didn’t apply the law as written equally to Jews as to other groups that have beed discriminated against.
The law states in employment -that the religious beliefs of an individual has to be accommodated unless there is “undue hardship”. The Courts didn’t uphold my rights as an individual to practice my religion. I never have seen them do this with any other religion. And if the Courts decision was based on the written law that the company had a legal loophole of “undue hardship”; I’m still waiting to be informed what that is. Since the Company, nor the Judge put this in any legal paper, I assume there isn’t any. So why wasn’t the law applied to me, like any other American, if it isn’t because the Court system is bias?
apushatayid – “Health. This svara of yours that extends stretching the truth for sholom to parnassa. Is this svara advanced by any rabbonim or poskim or is this your own chiddush. Also, is it permitted to outright lie for sholom? Is taking a government benefit considered parnassa or a form of tzedaka? Based on your lomdus one may lie to a gabbai tzedaka in order so that he should have a “parnassa”? Am I misunderstanding something? Please clarify your position. If this position has the backing of a posek, can you name him?”
See above post. My own S’vara. You’re permitted outright to lie.
Tzedaka can be someone’s Parnassa. If you lie because they have certain guidelines that you aren’t in compliance with, it’s not a problem because they have no right to make those guidelines, as opposed to a Gabbai Tzedaka!
w.chana -“I completely reject this. Have you asked your Rav?”
No, but you can ask yours. I’m not paskening for anybody.
Charlie – You’re so predictable. At least you’re consistent. As a matter of fact, I was going to bring as an added proof what you posted – “Wrong again. Julius and Ethel Rosenberg were executed after being convicted of spying for a then-ally. (And Ethel was probably innocent of the charges.)”
You are just adding fuel to my fire!
Why do you think they were treated differently than other spies? Why do you think they executed at least one, perhaps two innocent people? Perhaps, just perhaps because they were Jews. If they treat Jews differently, even if it’s not all the time, they don’t have the Din of D.M.D.!
“Your ingratitude is a chilul HaShem.”
Actually it’s not. People who treat Jews differently are making the Chillul and Bizoyin of Hashem.
And I have this ingratitude after the Judge laughed off my discrimination case. Which BTW they don’t do with other types whom are discriminated against. I’m still waiting for the Courts to tell me why it is any hardship, let alone “undue hardship”, for the company to have accommodated my religious beliefs. All the company ever proved was that it was a business decision to force all employees to work on Sat. Well, no company would be open on Sat. if it wasn’t a business decision, in other words, they are making money on that day. And forcing all employees to work on that day, is because they figured- workers don’t want to work on weekends. But where in these last few lines, have they proven -if they accommodate Shabbos observers that there will be a hardship, let alone an “undue hardship”, on their business. The law requires proof, not theorizing.