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Just some questions….
what about if the couple gets divorced (I mean within a short period of time…)?
or call off the engagement before the chasunah (if paid before the wedding)?
if the shadchan lied about the other party?
What would happen if your child’s place is NOT in bais medresh? what if they are not going to be the next rav, posek or kollel guy? Are you going to force them to fit a mold that you know is not appropriate for them? or will you allow them to channel their kochos into becoming a better yid and helping others? Do you seek outright a doctor that is frum? Many people I know are more comfortable with Jewish professionals. You know they wont (or at least are more likely wont) cheat you. They will be better able to understand your concerns and problems (especially psychologists) being from the same background. Then what is so wrong about your son or daughter becoming one?!?!?! I will say it again, if they are not cut out for learning would you stuff a square peg into a round hole because your child must be “like everyone elses”- even when it is bad for the child?
anon- I know about homeschooling. I have known people who have gone through it themselves and have told me about it. You must take secular studies. You go through some sort of institution, whether it be the local public school office (you dont step in a classroom) or another. They went to an office. The assign you work and you must bring it in and show that it was completed. Yes, you have a little more liberty as to what is covered, like choosing from a list of books what your child will read. No, artscroll biographies or works of fiction most likely wont make the cut. These are books that the government says are grade appropriate. You take a standardized test at the end of the year to see that you actually did the work and learned the basic skills and knowledge that was supposed to be covered. you cant just not do the work.
SO homeschooling doesnt mean that you can not learn secular studies. get the facts before making assumptions. And based on other posts in other topics, people do not want to homeschool…even though it is cheaper and your kids can learn more and waste less time (why should there be homework to color in pages in 7th grade?)
Texting is bad, I agree. So is the internet. You are all on it. This shows that there is a good side to things. By banning them, you make the child desire it more and seek it in their own ways (at a friends house, purchasing one on their own ect). But, by teaching your children how to use it safely and appropriately, you instill a measure of self-control, personal responsibility and maturity so they can make these decisions on their own. Teach them, so that the first time they encounter it when you arent there, they are not immediately drawn to it, unsure of what to do. Model appropriate behaviors, instruct them in reasoning, logic, resposibility and maturity. Otherwise, what will happen when you arent there to tell them about the next technological invention???
There is a law that states that every child must attend school. school must be accredited and meet certain standards. No English, math, history or science doesnt exactly fall under that. So if you live in America, you need to send your kids to a SCHOOL.
Good point “Thinking”. I am sure they have heard of this Rama…
chatty- she didnt daven before? How funny! did they get married? What was the end of the story?
who are the creedmore chasidim? I am a little confused. But anyways- not funny A600KiloBear- Why the sinas chinam against Yidden? I am not a tzioni but they are still yidden!
He was awarded only like 11 days after innaguration. Yep. He changed the face of America: Do you like the new picture? I mean, isnt unemployment almost up to the double digits when he said it wouldnt go past 8% if we pass the stimulus bill?
Joseph- you still have not answered my questions…. please explain your love to bash those not like you while accepting from them. Just like there are two sides to a coin, there are many sides to an issue. Many of those you have quoted were not around in the last century. Some times, circumstances bring out different aspects to light. If you would have asked the Rashba and the Rama about using computers for gaining academic degrees, you would have been sent to a mental institution as they didnt exist and could not be comprehended. Times have changed and that is why we have poskim in every dor to explain it to us.
So its assur to have a secular education, except when we need them! Stop being hypocritical about taking “money deissure” (dont collect tzeddaka from them) and receiving help from those with the education. Medical professionals are needed in the frum community. So are lawyers and other professionals. I know lawyers who take pro-bono work for frum institutions. There are doctors who are willing to give free services on shabbos and yom tov if they are necessary. They know the halacha and the medical field- they know if its pikuach nefesh and can break shabbos for them. A doctor I know who was doing bikur cholim on shabbos and noticed that the person had to go via ambulance to the hospital. Rabbanim who were over didnt notice- they didnt know the medical signs! Someone was in a car accident right before shabbos and was in need of a once-over to make sure nothing was broken and didnt need the hospital. (B”H that time they were ok but the doctor came over quickly and was willing to give services free of charge)
If C”V someone needed a psychologist or therapist or marriage counselor, wouldnt it be better to talk to a frum person? They understand you better than goyim can and thus can help you better. How can you explain the importance of halacha and not violating it to a goy?
Please dont make it into a thing of money. Many are not in it for the paycheck but to help others.
I was witness to a terrible chillul hashem in shul on Simchas Torah. A few men were drunk beyond comprehension of time/space and started shouting ridiculous comments! The whole shul was embarrassed for these men and their wives. one at least was not married because his also drunk friend shouted that he was a bachelor and everyone should set up their daughters with him. I for one would not let any children near people who risk their lives and ruin kavod Torah for an alcoholic high. no way should anyone be willing to be set up with someone who drinks like that…
What about the middos of that father? What kind of lesson is he teaching his son? That he is automatically better than others and should push for his rights? Yes, he might be getting the first aliya and there are special halachos for regarding kohanim. But if the kohanim are arrogant and without proper middos then it kind of defeats the point. They are supposed to be an example for the rest of us….
So I guess it comes down to this: It is assur to go through college or any secular training except when I need something from them… I need my child to see a doctor at odd hours, I need money, I need someone to know the halachos of when it might be a shaila of breaking halacha (shabbos) for pikuach nefesh… [rabanim dont always know how serious something might be. I know someone who was very sick for a while (machla) and was at home. It was shabbos or yom tov and they were at home not feeling so well. A man came by to do bikur cholim and said that he was calling the ambulance over NOW. Rabbanim were over and didnt see what was wrong. He ended up having pneumonia on top of it and it was pikuach nefesh. Only a doctor would be able to tell the difference between a cold, the flue and pneumonia. It saved his life and was able to live a lot longer because of it. (in the end he was niftar from the machla but it was not because of pneumonia…)]
Secular knowledge is wrong except when I need them, and then I am glad they are there.
Stop being so hypocritical- either dont partake of their services and benefiting from their “malacho deissure” or stop complaining and ranting that it is assur! Not everything is so black and white, there are kosher ways of doing things. If you dont agree- get off the computer because all computers are treif, all internet is assur, technology is the work of the sattan….
For those against college (or any secular) education, please answer me the following points:
* Why are you wasting time on this site? bitul torah!
* Women dont have an issue of bitul torah…
***. Are you so against marrying your sons to families with wealthy father-in-laws? If you are so against secular education, it would fit that you would be ashamed to take “tainted money”. No more father in laws who are lawyers, doctors, engineers or ones that have any college education! Dont take money from those who earn a living. Dont collect money from those who have college degrees!
Maybe it would be wise to get some training beforehand in how to deal with children who may have certain psychological or physical disabilities or issues. Raising a child like that takes a special family. Be careful that the kids do not feel pressured or hateful to the new kid, or treat him/her any differently. It is a hard balance and I wish you much hatzlacha in this! You have to be special just to consider it.
One of the worst names to have if you want to work in the airport: Jack…
HI Jack!! (I know someone who has relative named Jack who said that they dont say hi that loudly in aiports cuz people start to look at you more carefully….)
Seriously, a relative of mine went through security and was told “please step to the side”. Doesnt look like a criminal, more like the lawyer look (suit, white shirt ect), nothing wrong on his passport or anything, but when asked why he was chosen, “If we pull you out, we can pull 3 suspicious people (ie Mohammeds). We cant pick people out of the line based on how they look, so if we pick you, we can pick them…”
That’s why they pick a few handicapped people or people they know are ok. Also, cuz they never can be sure! That little granny sure looks like she is plotting something…
We should never forget that day. Never forget how we acted during the tumult and for weeks afterward. The way we hugged our families, treated our neighbors, let the little arguments fly off without burning a hole in our hearts like it used to. The way the flag of America flew over so many homes and shops, the way we showed appreciation for our country, were PROUD to be an American for they have allowed us to be frum yidden. America has helped us, so we should now help them during their tragedy. How yidden helped Jews and goyim alike, how Jews helped others without regard for their type of hat, nussach of their siddur, or color of their shirt. How the stores gave away water and shoes for those who had to walk home. Our siblings weren’t annoying- we were glad they were there. We appreciated human life in a way we haven’t in a long time. We cared about people we never met, may never see in our entire lives. But they were there, and they needed us, our tefilos, our thoughts.
We became different that day. Our R”H and Yom Kippur were different.
We should never forget how it changed our lives and we should never have allowed us to relapse into our old selves.
Never Forget 9/11/01
Machon Raaya seems to be a new BJJ…not for everyone.
I know someone who went to shoshanim and she LOVED it. Very warm and friendly, everyone was friends with everyone. The staff really cares about you. The schooling is academic toned down… there are girls that are super academics and girls who are not so academic. Its more of a low-pressure environment where you can learn and absorb without having to memorize the whole tanach by the end of seminary. You learn tons but you dont have the pressure to study 40 hours for a single test. There were papers but the teachers guided you and there was always help from the madrichot or aim habayit if you wanted it. There were tests and preparation to do, and girls did it. Its not a party school where no one studies or does the homework. Girls do it, but they aren’t driving themselves crazy over it.
Each seminary is slightly different and for specifics, ask those who went there!
Hatzlacha with picking a seminary!
thanks for sharing it.. it brings the year right down to a tefillah that many of us dont think about. yikes.
Mepal- any school can close, so why could it “not close no matter what”?? It is just a school- others will be made if there is still a need. Just because it has been around for a long time, it doesnt mean that it has to stay open forever. Schools open, schools close. Many people here stated that a problem the school has is that the chasidim moved into the area. So maybe it has to move, or close, and other schools will sprout up in the demographically correct neighborhoods.
If parents knew that BYOBP may not open this year, why did people not rush to try to get their kids into another school? Were people all relying on someone else to pay for them? Were they depending on the generosity of “someone else” and “someone who is richer than I am” to pay??
I appreciate it Mr. Joseph. We dont want to be too friendly here in the anonymous CR where we wont know someone if we bumped into each other on the street (figure of speech- not advice).
Joseph- I was referring to you…. Please dont call me HSS anymore. I would now like to be refered to (specially by Joseph) with a proper surname before it.
Josh- thank you… I think your post makes the case quite well.
Joseph- I think you are speaking from your personal bias and opinion and you fail to bring facts and/or evidence. Please give some reasons as to why you think that those jobs are more frum-friendly than any that are “with a four year degree”. By the way.. there are many ways to get that 4 year degree in less time and it still be worth something. Many chasidim (and others) who are not working but still have money come from a money-family. They own apartment buildings and collect rent, they own stores or real estate ect. It is very hard to break into that type of market without connections. I can’t just wish it and get a couple buildings the next day to own. It takes money to make money.
Joseph- I dont want you to call your neighbors, friends, students, co-workers, secretary ect by their first name-ok?
There is a difference, Mr. _______(fill in your last name here).
feivel- do you want to experiment to find out? I have some rubberbands…. A danger is still a danger?
Joseph- But many degree-requiring jobs can be done at other times. Ex: Lawyers: the court is only open monday through friday. There is work that has to be done outside of courts and that can be done sunday or during the week ect. Other medical professionals, like OT, PT, doctors, dentists ect can choose their own hours to work or can arrange to take the hours that others dont want: sunday, goyish holidays ect. Jobs that are obtained through training programs are lower on the totem pole of job-hierarchy and have little choice on when to work. But these things differ based on the particular job or trade. Also, jobs that need little college education may attract a certain segment of the goyish population that we might not want to work with…
Back to a point discussed before: why are some parts of the frum world so against the men and women learning a trade/career? Yes, there are jobs that dont need a lot of schooling, but openings for some of these jobs are few and far between.
Earlybird- just dont require the rest of us to pay your bills. If you want him to stay in kollel, fine, but please dont EXPECT us to pick up the tab. I would rather spend my tzeddeka money on organizations that rely on donations to do their mission and not on people who PREFER to do something regardless of the outcome.
Also-
–rocking backwards on chairs. Someone who worked with special needs children once told me about someone who was born normal, rocked back on his chair,fell and hit his head causing brain injury….
–Playing with rubberbands. It is true about it poking someone’s eye out. Be careful what they play with!
Expensive weddings can cost more than just money. It can cause hurt feelings and emotional energy from both sides. It can cost some sholom bayis at the beginning of the marriage- something that we dont want to see! (well, my mom spent this and yours owes her…Your wife/husband’s side owes so much to us, no wonder they can afford XYZ..sounds childish but it can happen!)
Some of these jobs may not require a regular 4 year degree, but they require at least a few years of school. There are training schools to get these degrees but they require you to stay in the program the entire time. You have to be able to prove your academic worth- able to communicate easily in English (writing and verbally) and pass certain entrance tests (essay, math, reasoning ect). Also you need a high school degree- Many frum high schools are not accredited!
OT and PT both do not require 4 years of undergrad to be able to enter the grad school, just the pre-requisite science and othermiscelaneous classes (depends on the school). They are each 2-3 years full time for the grad school. They make quite a bit as well.
Joseph- litvish is an area, yeshivish is a mindset. Many people who refer to themselves as from an area would be considered yeshivish as well. Now, what does yeshivish mean????(define in 50 words or less…)
Joseph- thank you for explaining what IOW means. Now, can you please explain how your statement fits mine??
Why can’t people go according to the simcha guidelines? I have been to weddings that didnt even take them into consideration… I wonder if it cost as much as a month’s (or a year’s) rent, bills, tuition for their other kids….
Joseph- sometimes tips are given at visiting day or when the parents mail the kid the money (if sleep away).
A note to add- camps should make sure that all jobs be given a salary or be a “tipping job” at least. There are those camps out there where certain jobs dont get a paycheck but they do get tips. That is known before the staff works there. I had a job once at a sleep away camp and I didnt get a tipping job. I felt like the camp forgot about me when I worked the whole summer, got no tips and no paycheck. I was told that they would give money in tips/appreciation (from camp and not from parents if need be) but I wasnt given anything. Some jobs are automatically tipping jobs: waitress, counselor or JC. what about lifeguards, office staff, nurses’s assistants (camps have them), activity-heads (arts and crafts, boating, ect)??? The camp I went to did not pay me and I forgive them at this point but wish camps were more attuned to their staff.
The word TIP means “to insure promptness”. (acronym)
I have been a counselor in a camp and was paid almost nothing. I was told when I got my paycheck that I shouldn’t show it to others because I was paid more as I was older…They paid according to the counselor’s grade in school/age. If I was paid that little, I would hate to see what the younger counselors were paid. Yes, some were much younger, more like junior counselors, but some were high school-age and they should be receiving decent pay. I wonder what the adults in charge were paid… From my personal experience, I see that tipping is important. But I had a family where they gave a small gift instead of payment. Yes, money would be more appreciated after a summer of work, the gift showed that they cared and wanted to show their appreciation. One family- it looked like the kids picked something out for their counselors. It was cute and I wouldn’t really use it or need it, but it showed that they cared. Sometimes, that is what is important.
Joseph- what does IOW mean, and what does your message to me mean?
“hss: IOW you are basing it upon your own personal feelings.”
ok, I guess that it is something that the parents have to reckon with regarding choosing seminaries.
Aimhabonim… anything else we can help with?
mepal- same here…
I dont like the fact that seminaries have access to internet and email. It might make things more convienient but where is the supervision? Parents aren’t there so the staff has to know what is going on. if there is a filter, well, there are those who know how to bypass it…
Mepal- you assume for homework… what homework purposes would you get from YWN? Gmail?
I know many seminaries who would NOT have them. They might have had them at one point and then chose to remove them. Some seminaries I know have them just to type their papers and the like… no internet capabilities on them at all. Girls would be on the computer all day and not experiencing Eretz Yisrael!
Teachers should be very aware of the goings-on in their classroom. There can be physical torture or mental torture. Look to see if there is a kid that is never included, is never approached to be a potential partner for a project, is never spoken to during recess… even if they seem ok. they probably are not if no one speaks to them. they can be doing well academically but a kids social life is just as important.
Dont point the kid out or tell the whole class to be nicer to Shloimy or Rochel. That will just make him the object of more teasing or ignoring and wont help. Help the kid but dont make it OBVIOUS… like calling the kid out of class many times (and no one else) to talk to him or her. When making a class project, try to assign groups of two. two kids to work on a part together (one being THE kid and the other is one who he/she might possibly get along with.) Split up cliques and the bully with his/her compadres… 3s dont work because one kid can be left out.
so can he call her by her first name? it should go both ways!
Joseph- I can say that because innocent children who haven’t received a proper education have an extremely hard time getting one. They can’t work to pay for their own tuition, can’t exactly tell their parents to pay for it for them or to send them. They have little choice in the matter…
Kollel, on the other hand, is made up of older, married men who could have the ability to pay for their own learning. They are not required by halacha to sit there every single day if it is at the expense of their own children. Just by working (on the side or full time) does not make them automatically “less frum”. Becoming less frum is a choice and it is not necessarily true in most cases. Men can be kovei eitim and still stay as frum or grow to become “frummer”. Working and being less frum or Learning and being more frum are not proportional in any way. If working=being less frum then how could you take our money? Those with the money to pay for other people’s tuition are working… so you would have “non-frum” money paying for you to learn Torah? isn’t that a little counter-intuitive? How do you know that since “we arent frum” that our money isnt through illicit means?
I would rather pay for a non-frum child to become frum than pay for a guy who is frum to continue being frum…
charlie- I have some issues with your statement that chinuch needs to be prioritized over kiruv and kollel. Yes, over kollel, but kiruv needs to be addressed as well. Those iare automatic money-losers and will remain in debt constantly as they cant charge tution or the parents wont send their kids there. What about all those other deserving organizations out there that can’t support themselves but are very necessary? bikur cholim, chai lifeline, schools and organizations for special needs students and adults ect. How can we say that they dont deserve a good deal of our funding?
Also, by stating that any one organization or type is deserving more than others will cause subsequently an increase in the wastefulness and misuse of money as these institutions wont necessarily be as careful in allocating funds. They will realize that they will get most of our funds as “they are the priority”. Its a cycle- state that one thing is priority or will have unlimited funding and they will find a use for the new money. Every cent. Then they will eventually run out of money, will cut back and be about to close and then “priority” status is granted again.
machon raaya- can you please tell us: (not trying to be accusatory, just want some info about this new seminary!)
a) how do you have access to the CR? Does your seminary give you access to computers and internet?
b)what do you mean by “not typical BY girls”?
Plonis- you’ve got a pretty good eval as well. 😉
so, Aimhabonim… where abouts on the spectrum are you… ie: darchei bina or closer to chochmas lev? peninim or shoshanim? **be careful with those two…their name is similar but they are very different. peninim is much less academic and just a different type of crowd goes to each one. People confuse them but once you know the two types, they cant be confused.
Gezuntheit- I know a lot of girls who are or were in different seminaries the last few years. It could just be that those I know who went were not on the “academic track” in their high school… I didnt state this one as fact, if you would look back, I said “I think…”
It can also vary year to year. I think the girl I am thinking of right now went the first year it opened and the sem could have changed in the last 2 years.
skates-Shoshanim doesnt have that much HW. (Good friends went there) They have a “study period” twice a week to do homework/ preparation that will be needed for the next day’s class but they have teachers and staff ready to help during those times if needed… Besides that, not much at all. More classes so less homework… The trade-off between classes and HW comes from whether or not you like to learn things on your own or if you want to learn from teachers.
iswhatitis; so what else do you want to talk about?
To my earlier post, another question to ask yourself is
**How much a JAP (another box word) is your daughter? Is she going to be bringing 32 pairs of weekday shoes to seminary? Is she going to wear designer/brand name clothes? (I mean if she wants only those and likes them for the name). It all depends on what type your daughter is… Some seminaries are known for being one type or another….
Oh, Maybe a list of different seminaries and just cross off the ones that wont be a proper fit and keep adding to it….
On the “No list” so far based on your statements are:
Hadar
BYA
Meor
Seminar
Bnos Chava
So far listed here that weren’t commented on as yeses or nos….. the: “yes so far” list
Chochmas Lev- academic but not THE most, a little more to the left than some of the others.
Shoshanim-small, out of town but still NYers there, not the most academic but I saw someone’s schedule and it was a lot of classes-more than the norm- (so less homework… thats why it seems to be called less academic). I heard that they will do their best to make everyone comfortable in the environment (tutors if needed or special accommodations) and ask opinions of girls about topics for speakers, yomei iyunim and follow through.
Seminar- I think this one is on the larger side.
Darchei Bina-sister of chochmas lev, but drop to the left.
Ateres- not so academic
Machon Raya- new
Mesores Rochel-its new and I heard its very academic.The “new BJJ” acc. to some.
Nachlas- kind of new…I dont think it is so academic
Tiferes (I dont mean Tiferet which is more modern/MO type and in Ramat Beit Shemesh)tiferes is yeshivish but not the most booky, location: Sanhedria Morcheves, someone I know who is there said that she applied cuz they were big on middos…
Another idea: is your daughter comfortable in “all hebrew” classes? if yes, maybe bnos sarah…but that is really academic as well. I know girls who did the BJJ and Bnos Sarah (and some mesoras rochel) combo…
Hope this helps…hatzlacha