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bym: You missed quoting benig’s second part: “The difference between the men and women, in general, is in the path to that accomplishment.”
bym: Being a housewife IS ideal and should be encouraged as that indeed is one of the ultimate accomplishments of Bnos Yisroel.
DaMoshe: So by your own admission you must respect talmidim of those Rabbonim when they publicly share and espouse their Rabbonim’s shitta.
I think HaKatan should clarify that point, since my impression is that he intended to be referring to the beliefs not necessarily to the religious believers (as far as carrying the personal status as heretics.) As you both pointed out, that one comment seemed to against the grain of most of his other comments.
DY: Vayoel Moshe, to take the most prominent example, was certainly directed at other than just his own followers.
DY: Yes, the tone may not be mainstream but the tone is certainly within the realm of the Torah world with various gedolim using that same tone on this issue, even if they are the minority – which they may be insofar as the tone is concerned. . . . As far as referring to MO/DL as kofrim/ovdei a”z, I agree with you that is wrong to call them that but did not notice him referring to them that way, only to the beliefs espoused.
“like I said, he said many outrageous things.”
Except that he is the gadol hador, not you or I, and neither of us are in a position to make such a pompous comment on a gadol.
The only point I want to make here is that the general position HaKatan is espousing is not a minority view but rather the majority view of gedolei yisroel. I’m not speaking the oaths specifically but rather of the overall impermissibility of the state, its formation and its subsequent actions.
I don’t think the two of you are disagreeing but rather are emphasizing different points. Rabbi Miller often said that 99% of divorces were avoidable and unnecessary. So, yes, of course there are those 1% exceptions. But as a general rule it is by far tragic.
Well said Ben Levi. When the barriers to divorce are lowered (and they shouldn’t be but have been) it causes unnecessary divorce, often for frivolous reasons often for convenience and often for reconcilable differences, where it wouldn’t have occurred otherwise and shouldn’t have but was due to its ease and the disposable nature of society we are unfortunate to live in.
Baruch Dayan HaEmes.
Are you his niece?
I disagree. Actually with the premise, even, that he would have to insist on it or that she would be uncomfortable with it. Aside from the halacha, it’s just natural in a marriage (and has been that way since the institution of marriage until women’s lib came along).
I was trying to find the paraphrase I cited from Rabbi Miller. In his sefer I found the following quote he wrote that is more relevant to the OP’s original question:
“The woman’s career and happiness are in her home – absolutely and entirely. Her husband, her children and her home are the expressions of her personality and her free will, and they are her chief forms of serving Hashem. The modern wife with a college degree and a job in secular professions is a misfit even in a non-Jewish home. The ideas of revolt against a husband’s authority and the unrealistic dream of equal leadership in the family, lead only to unhappiness and failure, and very frequently to divorce.”
(He wrote this about 40 years ago. So the point about non-Jewish homes probably changed since then. The point about divorce has been demonstrated with its rising rate together with the rising rate of demands for marital equality.)
Sam, because they have to actually say it to effect it. Otherwise the standard halacha applies, even if it would have been financially beneficial for her to have said it.
“In addition, a quick search shows that there a number of countries which permit marriage from 14.”
New York does with parental and judicial consent permit from 14. With parental consent it is permitted from 16.
yytz: The Rav said this many times and you can hear him stress this point on many of his tapes. Obviously he felt strongly that this is the proper way both from a halachic point of view and from a point of having a proper and traditional marital relationship. I don’t even think Rabbi Arush is disagreeing with the gadol. She can be in charge of financial matters on behalf of her husband the same way a company treasurer or accountant is in charge of corporate finances on behalf of the owners and not himself.
bym: The rav said this actually promotes and enhances shalom bayis. From personal experience and from speaking with many others I find that he is very correct.
Also, you misconstrued Ben Levi. Previous generations, unfortunately, weren’t financially or otherwise capable of meeting the ideal Torah scholar scenario. Now that we are able to, certainly we should as much as possible.
Rabbi Avigdor Miller zt’l many times said that a working woman should hand her paycheck to her husband. Besides this being the halacha he said she should acknowledge that he’s in charge even if she is working. (I don’t know how that would work now with direct deposit. Maybe the bank account should be in his name with her as an authorized party.)
In life there are people who are superior to others whether for reasons of birth or reasons of accomplishment. An example of reason of accomplishment is a talmid chochom is greater than the hamon hoam. An example of reason of birth is a King is greater than his subjects and a Kohen is greater than a Yisroel. A Yisroel is required to give kovod to a Kohen and Kohanim get the first Aliya and other kibudim. There is nothing wrong with all this and everything right. It is the natural state of affairs and what the Torah commanded us. You don’t find (to the best of my knowledge) Yisroelim demanding egalitarianism in getting the same status as Kohanim. And similarly with gender issues we must accept and follow the comparitive status differences and differences in life demands that exist between men and women as defined by the Torah and nature itself.