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“You don’t think it’s a kiddush Hashem to do a mitzvah?”
Why would it be? Is it Shiluach Haken to light Chanukah lights?
“and if there is a conflict, following the halacha is ultimately the kiddush Hashem even if it looks strange and/or angers goyim, and violating Halacha is a chillul Hashem even if it seems to curry favor with goyim”
Why can’t it just be neither?
You want to live in a country where you’re forced to put Tefillin on the floor or get kicked off your flight. I don’t.
These flight stories keep getting worse. They feel that anything that went through their mind they have the right to bully you into obeying.
The real “Shtetl Yid” is the one with the what-are-the-goyim-gonna-say complex.
Don’t say anything. Just post the following on the wall:
I don’t think it is a big deal. You would have to discuss it with your prospective spouse. I know someone who took on his wife’s family name, since it was a brand name.
In this thread I noticed a knee-jerk reaction to a knee-jerk reaction. Just pointing out that this is what makes conversations boring. It becomes, at times, almost as if we’re replaying a scripted act.
“So there is no real halachic plusses to wearing a long jacket?”
Hardly. There is an element of Tznius, so that’s enough to make it matter in a Shaas Hashmad, being a Tzad Yehadus. I saw someplace that the Chazon Ish held it is Tznius thing.
There is a hint to this in the Gemara in Shabbos, in which Rav Yehuda illustrates how the overcoat, the Glima, is related to Golam, that you don’t see the limbs but only one solid form. The assumption is that he said this as a positive attribute.
The idea is very simple. We find in Chazal that we don’t change our attire to match the outside world. This does not mean that we create a new design for ourselves. It does mean that we do not change over.
Now, if this were held onto 100% we would still be wearing wrap-arounds. So, obviously changes and adaptations happen slowly. People who interact with the outside world on their business are the first to get a Hetter to change. Rabban Gamliel’s family, and Reuven Itztarubi (if I got that right) come to mind. Next will follow those who don’t really fall into the previous category but are connected to the world at large in some degree, or they just like to be up to date and jump onto the newest style — once some in the community already dress that way.
Eventually, it stops looking un-Jewish and so the common folk adapt, which eventually leads the Bnei Torah and Rabbonim to follow suit (yup).
This is why we all have buttoned shirts and suits when, not that long ago, anyone who put that on was an outcast.
Now, two points need to be made:
The sensibility to this is obviously not set in stone. After all, the Gemara about being Mosser Nefesh for clothing was only about Shaas Hashmad; otherwise, it wasn’t all that terrible. It is a point of identity and strongly recommended, but hardly an out-and-out Issur. Therefore, you’ll find that the adherence to this concept will vary from community to community and from one time period to another.
The other point is, that it is all relative. Those who found themselves struggling in a new world, had to adapt fast in order to make it. Even after the great influx of proudly-traditional Jews came and didn’t have to adapt, those who had already adapted had no need anymore to switch, since there is nothing inherently wrong with the way they went — the issue is with changing.
Those from the Litvish background, who had adapted somewhat faster to newer styles, even in Europe, were still Makpid not to change any faster than that.
In other words, the Chasidish and Yeshivish communities have the exact same attitude towards dress. Any difference is only historical.
At this point, once entire communities have specific styles, it is a loud statement if you suddenly switch. And so, people are reluctant to do so, although this has nothing to do with my whole topic.
I hope this sheds some light on the topic, as well as puts an end to the shallow cry of, “Moshe Rabbeinu didn’t wear a Shtreimel.”
AAQ, for its own sake means that instead of a hierarchy in which Torah study is on top, and other things fill in underneath (Parnasa, interests…), you have a system of parallel values. On the top is secular knowledge alongside Torah. That is the charge.
“Avira, you have an admirable nack for putting everything in one sentence:…”
To this, I must agree. You ruin your better points when you intertwine them with weak, or questionable, ones. Do realize that several of your complaints are not hard fact. The issues of whether there is or isn’t a place for Jewish nationalism, what its place is, or the importance of retaining Eretz Yisroel as a Mitzva or for keeping people Jewish, are debatable. Even if you feel very strongly that you are correct and you can back it up, it does still remain an opinion. You can’t lump that alongside arguments that are hard & dry facts.
Even the complaint about how they value secular study for its own sake, is after all a Hashkafa issue. You can point to that to show differences but you won’t get anyone on board who hadn’t already agreed with you.
“While Avraham was teaching, Shem and Ever had their own yeshiva where Yaakov goes to learn how to live and deal with Lavan.”
C’mon, you are going to prove something from what you made up?
“Both types of learning are legitimate.”
This entirely ignores every single one of Avira’s points. As if he complained about practical vs theoretical learning.
There’s actually no evidence of a written Mishna, and plenty of evidence for the lack thereof. Last Daf Yomi round, I jotted down some notes on this as I made my rounds.
Before Rebbe it was like I wrote above about was it was before Rav Ashi. They always studied Talmud — the reasoning and proofs of the Halachah as well as Halachic statements. Every Rebbe taught Mishnayos to his Talmidim. This is the summation of the Halachos that he received from his Rebbes or had ruled on. This led to a situation in which any two people had a completely unrelated Mesora.
Rebbe brought everyone together. This was a tremendous undertaking. As it says, only Rebbe was able to pull this off with his wealth, government connections and peaceful time period. He had everyone recite what they had received from their Rebbe. Then, he painstakingly worked everything out and formed one solid, coherent Mishnah that should be the standard. From then on, that was what every child was taught and memorized.
Two more points. It appears that the titles of Mesachtos predated Rebbe. We find in the end of Horios how Rabban Gamliel organized Uktzin overnight. This tells you that it was a topic with a title (unless the Gemara was speaking shorthand), and that there was no set Mishna yet.
The other point is that the Gemara says in several places that the Mishna is Rebbe Meir according to Rebbe Akiva. This means that Rebbe used Rebbe Meir’s Mishna as his basis. On top of that he could have rejected parts and added even large sections.
Even if you’d say that he went ahead and wrote it, that was not his monumental achievement. But he didn’t.
Well, you can stick to national politics, and then you’re always covering אפי תלתא material, and בעלי מחלוקת, and those of whom Misaskim won’t be needed.
“And the respect for those who attempt it, is withering away.”
This is sadly, very true. It is hardly even addressed.
“HaLeiVi: What about Saul Liberman?”
Would you use term, Talmid Chacham?
“yeridas hadoros isn’t really a chidush”
It’s a phrase used for certain purposes. But it has its place. No doubt that the Talmidei Chachamim from 200 years ago were greater than the majority of today’s. We’ve read their achievements, and of their Yiras Shamayim. But it doesn’t mean that the generation as a whole looked better.
It is pretty much common knowledge that Torah is more widely learnt today than ever before.
Avira, you wrote (parenthetically), “his time, kal vechomer ours“.
I don’t think that would necessarily be the case. I don’t think he was in a great time, or place. There’s a good chance that we are doing much better.
Another thing: I don’t have the insider perspective that you have. However, you must be careful when criticizing Talmidei Chachamim and Yar’ei Shamayim. Somebody who is a Muchzak Talmud Chacham can’t be spoken of with derision, scorn or worse — sarcasm.
““Ashkenazic” is not a race.”
If there is any such thing as race, Jewish-Ashkenaz would be it. In fact, that’s what I always enter into the (racist) government forms. I am not from the Caucasus.
I do say, though, that black is not a race. It is a skin attribute that many races have in common.
Huju, the Gemara refers to the game of Nardshir, as is a good mind stimulant. Rashi explains this as Chess.
The assumption is that it is a reference to the Persian king, Ardshir, who might have picked up the game from India.
Wait. So maybe the Matanos that Avraham Avinu sent along with those he sent eastward was a new set of games.
The mistake is to think that Yeshiva is where you learn anything you’d ever need to learn. No. Yeshiva is where you are taught the skills to be able to learn on your own.
Most Yeshivos do teach some Nach, so that we get to know and recognize what it is all about. And then the focus is on Gemara, Gemara in depth, Halacha (maybe not enough), and a sprinkling of Hashkafa. These are things that require being taught and require spending time, especially youthful time.
Whenever you have the time to do so, please do learn Nach. A friend of mine had this idea that whenever a Gemara quoted a Pasuk from Nach he would look up the entire Perek. When I was in Kollel I began my day with first learning some Nach. No new skills required for that.
Oh, mosherose! Fun times.
“The poskim hundreds of years ago said that being meshalesh learning doesn’t apply nowadays, and that gemara takes priority, both because it is “balul mekulan””
That’s Tosafos.
When the early winter wave happened last year, it did go through our NY communities but not at pandemic levels. It got those who weren’t infected previously and a few of those who did. We all remember what the actual pandemic was like and that wasn’t it.
The fact that what we were being told (blamed, cautioned) flew in the face of what we knew for a fact, did not help in taking authorities seriously.
If the Wuhanvirus makes its way around here, I’d say it hit be much fewer than any previous time, and likely no casualties.
“What was foretold?”
That the conversation will follow along party lines, which is what makes it boring.
Yes. Listen closely:
mP mP mP P P. mP mP mP P PSyag, why would you be upset? It was foretold.
It’s at least as bad as not lighting a Menora by your second door.
You only look at it after Shabbos, and you don’t bat an eyelash at the fact that someone, whom you know lives in Eretz Yisroel, sent it earlier.
But scheduling is not all that common.
Kuvult, they were allowed to jot some personal notes down in order not to forget. It was not common, and was merely used as a self reminder. Never was it taught from text.
By the way, not just Chasidim, but anyone will gain by having a close connection to someone greater than him.
The natural tendency is to get comfortable where you are at, and to begin to feel that there is nowhere further to go. I’ve seen plenty of individuals who feel like they’re on top. When you get a glimpse of how much more there is to go, it will change you a lot.
RuffRuff
ibn HugoBasket of Radishes
Ctrl Alt DelWhat exactly is not clear?
I’m asking “Added to what”, since you are implying that there was a Sefer that had to be re-edited each generation. But it wasn’t so.
Syag, sorry for the smug comment.
These things are always broken along party lines, and you see many rehashed points. There are many topics which I don’t check out. Here, it’s not the topic but rather the way it is bound to devolve.
“HaLeiVi, how can one newly start experiencing Chasidus?”
By joining a place. Most Chasidishe Sefarim stress having a close connection to a Tzaddik. Today, there are a lot of people who learn Chasidishe Sefarim and don’t have a Rebbe. It’s worth what it’s worth. But to really get the benefits of what it has to offer, would be to be a part of something alive.
This thread is going to get boring pretty fast.
“So people just added certain statements and opinions of Amoraim throughout the generations?”
Added? Added to what?
Every Jewish boy studied the Mishna, by repeating it (with a tune) until he knew it well. There was no Sefer Mishnayos. (That’s right. If you want to argue, start a new thread.) Once they knew the Mishnah they would join a Yeshiva and discuss everything they learned. They would lesrn.from their rebbes what the previous generations had to say, and what the Halachah is. They would learn how to interpret and resolve certain hard Mishnayos and Braysos.
Then, they would argue and discuss new issues that came up, as well as weighing previously given interpretations. Those that rose to the top and became Roshei Yeshiva would teach all this old and new material to the next generation.
Obviously, students of different rebbes would land up with different interpretations and even, at times, different versions of earlier statements (or, more commonly, different attributions).
Eventually, Rav Ashi along with Ravina made one coherent Talmud, incorporating and ironing out everything that was taught until then. After him, the next generation committed it to writing.
The next few generations, the רבנן סבוראי, edited it to give it one language, to fill in steps to make it easier to follow, added some Sugyos (i.e. beginning of Kedushin) and stuck in a few explanations.
The generations following that are the Geonim, who were mostly occupied with Halachah. They also had many points that were passed down and weren’t written in.
לקוטי דברים קדושים מאדמו”ר שליט”א
That is the publication of every single Chasidus, so I can’t go wrong.Seriously though, you cannot get good advice from someone who doesn’t know you. All you get here is that the one posting enjoys. Three are so many styles, angles and levels. But to really get Chasidus, it has to be experienced. It doesn’t really live in a book.