HakunaMatada

Truthsharer-

Your statement isn’t really true. there are MO rabbis who don’t have respect for the chareidi rabbis because they disagree in hashkafa matters and feel that they are unnecessarily machmir in halacha. The reason the chareidi rabbis don’t respect the MO is because they feel that they are wrong, not adhering to halacha as they should, and that they are hashkafically krum.

It’s pretty explicit in halacha that elbows are ervah,n not sure what your referring to. And how can you mock das yehudis which is potentially grounds for a women to lose her kesuba! Eating in the sukkah on Shmini Atzeres is a machlokes, covering knees isn’t.

Anonano-

While I’m not willing to completely side with hakatan, as I mentioned before, the MO rabbis 50-75 years ago did bend the rules to draw people in, and that hasn’t been completely undone.

writersoul-

I agree in most situations where the parents can’t support the couple and the wife doesn’t want to our can’t work, then there is no obligation to learn in Kollel. the obligation is to do whatever possible, and what that is depends on many factors. The question is, is it a priority that they are willing to sacrifice for, even if it means the wife working, our is it a nice thing, but it’s not something to bend over backwards for. The first attitude is the attitude of those in Kollel. it’s not easy, you have to cut back on certain things, but if that lifestyle is very important, it’s worth it. There are many people who claim they can’t make it work, but really they’re just not motivated.

The reason Kollel was never the norm is because they struggled even with working. But Baruch Hashem, there’s a lot more prosperity now than there used to be, so it’s realistic for thousands of people to learn full time.

Anonano-

Thank you

I think you misunderstood what I meant at the end. All I meant to say was that because of the broad spectrum of modern orthodoxy, sometimes the differences are blown out of proportion, because although I may disagree on many issues with some in the MO world, there are others who I’m basically in line with, but because they are officially MO and I’m officially chareidi, it can create a big, unnecessary, divide.

I disagree with the way you started your attitude towards learning full time. You write that there is “nothing wrong with it” , while I think it’s pretty pashut that in a perfect world everyone would be learning full time, that’s one of the aspects of talmud torah kineged kulam. I’m not sure what you mean by “eilu vaeilu”; that’s when there are two valid Torah opinions on an issue, but if you look in chazal, what I’m saying is clear. In fact, one if the pshatim of what the “test” was that Hashem tested the Jews in the midbar was now that they had no worries or reasons to not learn, because their needs were taken care of, will they devote all their time to Hashem, i.e. learning, or not. Pretty clear that without financial concerns, there are no excuses, you can’t just decide it’s not what you want to do

Anonano-

You make good points, but I don’t agree with everything you said.

Obviously there are many shades of gray of MO. But I can say with confidence that there are people who are MO and b’shita don’t cover their hair. I have relatives who are MO, and got their hashkafos from their MO rabbi, who was very respected in the MO world, and he wasn’t makpid that women cover their hair or elbows, or not wear pants, and sometimes even shorts.I assume he did this because he didn’t want to turn them off, but I don’t think it’s okay to condone it, the same way we don’t condone chilul Shabbos when trying to be mikarev someone.

And let’s even grant that you’re right. But do you see masses of chareidi women waking around in short sleeves and hair uncovered? No, you never do. So it’s obviously somewhat accepted in MO circles, or it would never happen.

In regard to learning full time, as long as wives and parents have chashivus for learning and it’s financially feasible, what’s the excuse not to. My point is that it’s a different attitude. The chareidi hashkafa is that learning is the starting point, but if it doesn’t work out because of parnassa or because he’s not cut out for it, then it’s fine. I’ve been around MO kids and adults a lot, and I don’t get a vibe that talmud Torah is ideal way of life for EVERYONE, not just special prior.

And with regard to the not so zahir in halacha,I think you missed my point. I agreed that people aren’t perfect and are very careless in certain areas, lashon hara is a prime example, but the hashkafa is that there are no cutting corners in halacha, and factions of the MO world can’t say the same.

An important thing I forgot to mention is that if the rabbis are on board, then it says a lot more about what the MO world does, and most issues that people have with the way chareidim act are things that our rabbonim don’t approve of. but there are a significant number of MO rabbis who are on board with problematic practices of the community in general.

The problem is, there are many people who are machshiv Torah and mitzvos, but are pro Israel, so they identify with modern orthodoxy, and then you have people at the opposite end of the spectrum who do most of the basics, and label themselves as orthodox (rightly or wrongly), and everyone gets lumped together, so it’s really not fair. so yes, the more right wing MO are basically in agreement with chareidi on most issues.

Feif un-

I never said that we should all be doing what the Gra did, but to claim that the Gra wouldn’t agree with what we are doing seems ridiculous.

Additionally, there are people from all stripes who do what they’re not supposed to do. It’s not a hashkafa of chareidim to do the things you mentioned. (I don’t want to get into covering up molesters, it’s very complicated in terms of how much evidence is necessary IN HALACHA to take it to the police. So I’m not willing to get into it, because it’s not a slam dunk either way.) Chareidi hashkafa is that movies and tv aren’t acceptable due to the inevitable pritzus and inappropriate content contained in most material. Covering hair is also something that is a halacha, and isn’t debatable. Just because people don’t do what they should doesn’t mean they or other people in their circles think it’s right. unfortunately there are many things people do wrong, but if you ask them, they went condone it. And regarding tznius, there are some things that are clearly defined, like covering hair, and other things which should be done, but are more gray, and not so clearly black and white, such as tightness of clothing. And, as i said, there are plenty of MO who cover their hair, but there are those who don’t, AND WILL TELL YOU THERE’S NOTHING WRONG WITH IT. that’s the difference. And there are other realms of halacha, such as mingling of genders where MO isn’t as scrupulous. In fact, that was one of the reasons the MO rabbis in the early twentieth century modernized it was too attract the masses which they felt would be completely lost, so they sacrificed in halacha hoping for wider acceptance.

Sam2-

Like you said yourself, the way it was back then was how it had to be, people needed to make a living. but when that’s not necessary, such as the Jews in the Midbar, there was no excuse to not learn all the time. The Gra himself says on the Mishna of talmud torah kineged kulam that there’s a mitzvah to learn every second of the day, unless you have a reason not to, such as parnassa. The MO world as a whole doesn’t have the attitude that Torah is all important and the top priority.

I don’t really understand what you mean that Daas torah is an innovation. The Ramban on the posek of Lo sosur says that there are two logical reasons to listen to the chachamim. 1. they’re more knowledgeable and probably right. 2. Because they’re the leaders, Hashem gives them special siyata dishmaya. A third reason is that from learning Torah, you see where the Torah and chazal’s values.and ideals are. Hashkafa isn’t a rabbi’s personal opinion, it’s applying his learning of Torah values to that situation, the same as in halacha issues where it isn’t discussed explicitly in halacha, you have to apply the proper halacha. who else would you rely on for the torah’s perspective on issues if not people with the most Torah knowledge?

*oops, “yeshiva bochur”, not “trains guy”

Anonymouschochom – I heard from someone in kashrus that the reason the OU doesn’t use DE is because people didn’t realize that you can’t eat it WITH fleishig, so putting on an OUD is safer, and if there are no milchig ingredients, you can call and find out if it’s actually parve.

Although it may sound logical that if there is nothing milk related on the allergy information, it must be that there is no milk content, this isn’t true. I spoke to someone in kashrus, and he said there are things that don’t affect people with milk allergies, but are still milk derivatives. In fact, they are coming out with a way to make milk without the part that allergic people react to.

Another point: the OU says that they take no responsibility for the companies cleaning off the equipment after a dairy run, so although the ingredients are parve, it might be an issue. Ask your rov what to do before you have oreos or the such after fleishig.

I have a lot of experience with Android and iPhone, Android is very hard to properly kasher, iPhone on the surface is much easier as others have noted, but there are potentially much bigger issues.

With all due respect to those who have unfiltered Internet on their phone, although I’m not saying you’re viewing inappropriate material, but a smartphone lends itself to secretly doing things you shouldn’t, and you’re therefore putting yourself in an unnecessary position. Not that it’s exactly parallel, but the gemara says that if you walk down a street with pritzus, and there was an alternative path, you’re a rasha even if you close your eyes. Don’t put yourself, or anyone else who may use your phone, in a makom nisayon, it’s not worth the risk.

Have any of you learned through the ????? in depth? Have you asked a shayla about it to a knowledgeable rav? You guys are having a discussion on par with elementary school kids hocking in the nuances of foreign policy, i.e. you’re clueless. These issues have been debated by rabbonim much greater than you, and as a mod said earlier in the thread, stop sticking your head between two mountains.

ROB – a few things

1. For you to claim that certain positions of the gedolim, i.e. the draft, are clearly against halacha, is foolish. These gedolim are quite knowledgeable in everything you know, plus a lot more you’ll never touch. Additionally, part of daas torah is knowing how to apply halacha to certain situations, and, as was mentioned, being mavin davar mitoch davar, two abilities which you, and just about everyone else with an opinion, lack.

2. Hashkafa is halacha. The rabbonim don’t make up how a Jew is supposed to live. Based on the Torah that they’ve learned, both the technical halacha, the shulchan aruch that you refer to, and everything else in gemara and midrashim that shows how we are supposed to conduct ourselves in day to day life, and how to deal with certain situations. All the Hashkafa is either derived from the Torah or is based on their shikul hadaas, which is more accurate because their whole way of thinking is dictated by the Torah, and therefore their conclusion is more likely to be in line with the Torah.

3. Gedolim aren’t perfect, they’re allowed to make mistakes. The Avos made mistakes, Moshe Rabbeinu made mistakes. But, the chance that they made a mistake is much smaller than the chance that you made a mistake, so for someone so severely lacking in daas Torah to claim that a gadol is wrong and he is right is idiocy, and probably wrong.

4. You are correct that Gedolim argue and you have to pick a rav. The same way that in a shulchan aruch related shayla there can be a machlokes, and they can BOTH be right, Hashkafa is the same thing. And just like there you have to follow your rov, and you wouldn’t pasken for yourself, Hashkafa is the same thing.

So in short, yes, you do have to listen to them, it’s the same as shulchan aruch, and they’re probably right.