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Avi K:
1. Actually, appealing to international bodies against Israel could, in fact, actually be a tremendous mitzva, if, for example, doing so saves Jews from Zionist shmad or saves Jewish lives.2. Their “fighting spirit” is far, far better used in a milchamta shel Torah in the Bais Midrash, not in the Zionist army whose specific purpose is to shmad them, to take the Torah away from them, in addition to “treating them to extreme doses of the big three cardinal sins (particularly, but not all limited to, if they were in actual combat units).
3. “HaTekufa HaGedola” contains “falsifications of fact”, as Zvi Weinman wrote both in a journal and in his book Mikatowitz Ad Hei B’Iyar (pp. 134-136). (From truetorahjews, about half-way through the article).
link removedReb Eliezer:
I think Joseph addressed well that AHS is not relevant here.Regarding the Mahara”M Schick (from the Chasam Sofer) that you quoted, though, he is very obviously NOT discussing voting in Zionist elections because he died close to a century before the Zionist state was even founded.
Furthermore, his sevara there obviously has zero to do with Zionist elections. First of all, much of Klal Yisrael, B”H, lives outside of Zionist rule. Whereas in “biblical” Egypt, it was everyone.
In addition, Reshaim voting in Zionist elections vs. liHavdil, tzaddikim who do not vote, has nothing to do with the Mahara”M Schick (from the Chasam Sofer) discussing having children and literally keeping Klal Yisrael going to the next generation.
In other words, regardless of who does and does not vote in Zionist elections, Klal Yisrael will definitely continue to the next generation, ad beas goel tzedek BB”A.
This barbaric practice still exists even after the dangers of these carcinogen sticks are so well known, R”L L”A??
I’m sure the chosson could give out something of benefit to his friends to achieve (an even better or) same result, and I imagine the kallah could do the same if that were necessary.
manitou:
Rather than address any of my points, you chose the “Satmar” attack.
I suppose that’s because the only fact you could contribute to the discussion is that you don’t like the facts I’ve written. Sorry about that.Wow. There’s so much confusion about this topic.
First, nobody proposes boycotting “E”Y”; they propose boycott the Zionist State of Israel. The two (E”Y and, liHavdil, the Zionist State of Israel) are diametrically opposed, not CH”V the same and not complementary.
So before you can even attempt to have an educated opinion on this topic, you have to be able to separate the holy land from the very unholy Zionist invasion and state the Zionists made there in E”Y.
Jewish Anti-Zionism is, as Joseph wrote, both de facto and de jure, both Pro-Torah and Pro-Judaism.
Moreover, even according to the Satmar Rav (the story to which he refers, as implied here, is a myth), a Gentile’s anti-Zionism does not at all mean that the Gentile is anti-Jewish. He could very well be more pro-Jewish than might be his pro-Zionist neighbor Gentile.
Anyone can see how true this is, if they have even a small understanding of the fraud, shmad and identity-theft of the Jewish people that is Zionism. In fact, if a Gentile understood how anti-Jewish, to the core, is Zionism, it would be ANTI-Jewish of them if they did NOT oppose Zionism. In other words, it is pro-Jewish to oppose Zionism.
According to some, Anti-Semitism is, in fact, one of the reasons the UN allowed the creation of the Zionist State.
Anti-Zionism is not NK, even though NK is anti-Zionist. NK’s methods, etc. may not be correct, but they are not at all the definition of anti-Zionism. They are simply a vocal minority that does what they feel needs to be done to draw attention to the fact that Zionism is anti-Jewish.
Anti-Zionism, meaning a part of being pro-Jewish, is simply recognizing at least some of the myriad evils that the Zionists have done and continue to do R”L L”A against our own Jewish people, and to recognize that, as Rav Saadiah Gaon wrote, Hashem made us a nation at Har Sinai based on the Torah, not a common land, etc.
E”Y serves as a holy land where individuals (not en masse) can grow spiritually, even in galus, though the Zionists have made even that very challenging in many ways, including attempting to shmad Klal Yisrael with their mandatory draft (of both men and women..like NK, as in North Korea) into their redefinition of Judaism/Zionist indoctrination engine known as the IDF.
When we merit it soon, BE”H, then E”Y will, of course, be the place where we will merit the building of the third Bais haMikdash after beas goel tzedek BB”A.
Charlie:
You seem to be conflating Zionism with, liHavdil, Chovivei Tzion, about which, incidentally, Rav SR Hirch and others were very against, and about which its founder ultimately expressed his regret.It’s simply impossible for any “Orthodox” Jew to be a proponent of what I wrote above – replacing Judaism with, liHavdil, an almost pagan land-based nationalist idol with some “Jewish” themes, etc.
Rabbi Soloveitchik proposed ideas (like Modern Orthodoxy and “Religious” Zionism) which were condemned by gedolim. So you can’t bring him as a support for Zionism. But even if you would bring him as a support, his students espouse positions about Zionism with which even he explicitly disagreed, and his stated reasons for supporting both “Modernity” and Zionism have been shown to be either irrelevant and/or wrong – certainly nowadays.
The Modern Orthodox “foolishness bordering on heresy” to quote Rav Schwab) has long been recognized as the silliness that it is, and the Zionist ideology and State/idol have long been exposed for the brazen heretical and idolatrous identity theft of Judaism that they are. Unfortunately, many are still taught this same “fossilized” (again, quote from Rav Schwab) nonsense with which no gadol even agreed.
besalel:
From where do you get that alleged definition of Zionism? It is simply not true and is also so simplistic that it couldn’t possibly be true. What would drive anyone to make a state only to immediately abdicate? Why would the Zionists insist on forced conscription of women, when that puts them on par with North Korea? Etc.Zionism was a Nationalist movement of the 1800s that sought to redefine Judaism and the Jewish nation from being one based on the Torah, to a nation based on a land. None of that has changed, unfortunately.
As Rav Chaim Brisker noted (way before the State was founded), people think that the Zionists shmad the Jews in order to achieve a State. In reality, it is the opposite: The Zionists need a State in order to shmad the Jews. Shmad is the goal. The State is merely the vehicle through which they perpetrate that shmad, R”L L”A.
besalel:
Zionism ended with the State? From where did you draw that conclusion? Certainly not from the Zionists who might know better about Zionism?But if you would know what Zionism is, then you would know just as well as any Zionist that, unfortunately, Zionism has most definitely NOT ended with the creation of the State.
You would also know that the larger issues with Zionism revolve not so much on its proponents and founders but, much more so, on the idolatry, heresy and identity theft of Judaism that is, liHavdil, Zionism.
Thank you, Joseph. I appreciate that.
Milhouse:
From where did you come up that these ideas that are allegedly Satmar ideas? I doubt that even NK holds that way, though, liHavdil, Satmar for sure does NOT hold like that. The Satmar Rav notes specifically that the Zionists could have peacefully ended their regime if they wanted to do so, and possibly still could do so even after the Zionists have (purposely) “inflamed” the region. Regardless, you cannot be machzik the Zionists.Instead of assuming what Satmar “seems” to hold, why not learn VaYoel Moshe and Al HaGeula viAl haTemura?
And from where did you come up with the alleged Chabad shita that the Zionist state “is the only thing that stands between millions of Jews and Holocaust Part II, r”l” This is mere Zionist propaganda and simply a bald lie (has anyone stopped to think how insane it is that a standard feature of an Israeli home is a “sealed room”!?), unless you mean that the Zionists are, in theory, protecting the residents of the parts of Eretz Yisrael that the Zionists have invaded.
Still, even that is not a reason to proactively support the Zionists. We daven for all our brethren worldwide, regardless of the government that rules the land in which they reside, but certainly not for the Zionist government.
Finally, your statement that — “If it happened, Hashem wanted it, and we have to deal with it.” and that, therefore, the State must NOT be a maaseh Satan — is simply not logical. What Hashem allows to happen versus what He “wants” are not at all necessarily the same.
Just as Hashem allowed the Eigel to come into existence, He also allowed the State to come into existence. While on the topic of the Eigel and the State, the Brisker Rav (not Satmar rav) noted that the State of the Zionists is the greatest achievement of the Satan since the Eigel haZahav.
The greatest Torah sages of the past century and beyond have blasted Zionism for the idolatry and heresy that it proudly is.
Rabbi Teichtal’s book was written during very desperate times and his introduction in any event states not to rely on it as a support for any -ism.
We’ve gone over this way too many times: the State is idolatry and heresy and a colossal chilul Hashem, not to mention communist-textbook-case propaganda and identity theft of the Jewish nation.
The gedolim were and are quite clear about the cataclysmic disaster for the Jewish people that was Zionism.
The Rambam who the MO love so much brought down the oaths in Iggeres Teiman. The Satmar Rav answers all the nonsense that Zionists try to bring up in a desperate attempt to hold on to their idols. Might as well just give it up.
jacoby211:
I don’t think he was questioning how much learning they do in MO places.
As Rav Schwab begged the MO decades ago, they should abandon their stale and fossilized “modernity” and join the true modern Orthodox, the traditional Orthodox binei Torah.
DaMoshe:
AS DY pointed out, the word “Modern” is in the title of the thread. Given the gedolim’s views on “MO”, it would not appear likely that this thread would thus be to your liking.
Burnt Steak:
As stated on their web site, OJ is not “MO”, even if they attract a variety of students.
From their site: “Yeshivat Ohr Yerushalayim is unaffiliated politically or philosophically with any political parties or formal religious movements. Its goal is to emphasize the primacy of high level Torah study and love of Klal Yisrael and Eretz Yisrael.”
The last line, however, does, at first glance, seem to neatly align with MO’s “Am Yisrael, Torat Yisrael and Eretz Yisrael”, which probably makes it attractive to MO.
Looking at it more closely, however, they note (in English) “limud haTorah”, not “Torat Yisrael”, and “Klal Yisrael” rather than “Am Yisrael”. Those particular word choices imply Torah-true orthodoxy, not “MO”. But it’s probably still “kosher” for “MO”, too.
The Brisker Rav stated that had the Jews in 1948 davened for the true geulah then they would have gotten that and Mashiach would have come. But since they davened for this heretical State of Israel instead, Hashem gave them that instead. This was the reason the State unfortunately came into being and also what severely derailed your “incontrovertible proof”.
In other words, after the great suffering from Germany, we would have had Mashiach in the 1940s, but, instead, the “Religious” Zionists (and perhaps others, liChaOra) ruined it by davening for this idol State instead of davening for, lihavdil, Mashiach.
At this point, instead of Mashiach, you have a State that has cost rivers of Jewish blood to create and maintain, not to mention the shmad of hundreds of thousands of acheinu binei Yisrael. And after all those human sacrifices on the altar of Zionism, the Zionists need their citizens to be armed as they walk around the streets so that they can ward off the savages with knives, etc. Hashem Yishmor, and they want to spend Billions (with a “B”) of dollars to turn the Zionist paradise into one big ghetto. In other words, the State has, of course, been a tremendous failure (at best) both spiritually and physically, despite the scientific awards, etc. of the Jews there. Yet you still believe in this idol.
As the Brisker Rav noted, the State they have managed to achieve is the greatest triumph of the Satan since the cheit haEigel. Nothing since the Eigel has topped this. Yet you maintain this fantasy that the State was a good thing in spite of this and in spite of the multitude of massive disasters that the State has wrought on Klal Yisrael.
As mentioned before, if anyone wonders how it is possible that only 600 people in all of Klal Yisrael did not bow down to the baal idol in the time of Eliyahu HaNavi, one need only look at Zionism today to understand.
No. What you see as “incontrovertible” is deluded (due to idolatry) and simply illogical, even if the sources in reality do imply what you claim.
First some basic facts, as per our gedolim.
The heretical (and disastrous on so many levels) State of Israel has pushed off the geula, CH”V. The “Reishis Tzemichas Geulaseinu” Zionist fantasy was based on a fraud, so that’s nonsense in and of itself.
Next, we have your sources.
Germany was definitely terrible to the Jews in WW II. (The Zionists did their part, too, but that is somewhat tangential here.)
Regarding the returning to Eretz Yisrael, there could certainly be a limited return to Eretz Yisrael before Mashiach comes. Individual Jews have the right to live in E”Y so long as their move to E”Y does not constitute an aliya biChoma and violate the oaths, CH”V. Political sovereignty is strictly forbidden due to dechikas haKeitz, so that rules out the State as a non-starter, Zionist fantasies not withstanding.
So this is irrelevant to the State; you’ve conflated living in E”Y and, lihavdil, the heretical State of Israel, which is typical of Zionists, whether “Religious Zionist” or otherwise.
Zionism is a massive physical churban, too.
The Zionists successfully lobbied governments AGAINST allowing Jews during WW II in to their respective countries.
The Zionists, who claimed to and were given to represent world Jewry for around a century, considered Zionism to be the greatest priority over everything including Jewish lives, and therefore insisted that Jews somehow get to Palestine or suffer their fate by the Nazi mass murderers.
Think about that for a minute, especially given their lies about being protectors of Jews. With friends like that…
Besides for the spiritual cause of the Holocaust, the Zionists very much did their physical share, too, including what was mentioned above. The motto of Zionism during WW II was “rak beDam tihye lanu haAretz”, and that meant Jewish blood.
Zionists today would be wise to avoid WW II in their attempted defense of their idol.
And the inflammation of the Arab world is also a physical problem of the State, not “only” a spiritual one.
Zionism has been and is a uniquely disastrous calamity for the Jewish people.
ROB:
While everyone is entitled to their own opinions, that is not the case with facts. The Zionists started Zionism for the simple reason that they wanted to be accepted by the gentiles as part of their club. This is fact.
Read the Holocaust literature: the Zionists admit that Zionism was and is the greatest value above all else, including above saving lives. The Zionists have intentionally and otherwise, and admittedly so, endangered and forfeited Jewish lives in WW II and in Israel, Zionist lies and propaganda not withstanding.
Zionism has been an absolute disaster for the Jewish people. Zionism is idolatry and heresy, and the Zionists have no answers.
ROB:
How dare you conflate your idol with “Eretz Yisrael” and accuse Health and others of “seeing only the bad in E”Y”? CH”V.
Health and others very clearly distinguished between the land and, liHavdil, your idol of Zionism.
Avi K:
Most of your post doesn’t apply to mine. Regardless, your own “Rav” admits that MO is a radical new invention.
Sam2:
We’ve discussed this before. The theology is indisputably erroneous. But the gedolim still hoped that the MO would return to the mesorah of unadulterated Torah from Har Sinai.
Luna Lovegood:
The Zionists themselves have already disproved your theories about Zionist protection. The Zionists created and maintain their state solely for the sake of Zionism, and not to protect Jews as, again, they have more than amply demonstrated both before and after 1948.
Regardless, your choice of being a Zionist, with the faith in the Zionists that comes with that, has zero religious backing, contrary to Zionist belief.
May Hashem protect all His children, wherever they may be.
yichusdik:
This has zero to do with any opinion of mine – I merely quoted – and it is plain fact that MO has zero historical authenticity. We have gone over this in many other threads.
Joseph has quoted your “Rav”‘s “chameish drashot”, where he clearly states that MO was a radical new invention that he thought was necessary, that Traditional Orthodoxy would become a museum piece, etc.
With the benefit of hindsight, this is obviously not the case. That’s besides for the gedolim’s clear and strong condemnation of MO, Zionism, etc. with one even specifically stating explicitly that your “Rav” cannot be considered as a link in the mesorah from Sinai.
Again, it is absurd to suggest that “shiv’im panim laTorah” can justify a non-starter like MO, Zionism or any other kefirah, A”Z, etc.
Nonetheless, Rav Schwab seemed to recognize that MO was simply misguided and, therefore, implored them to return to the Torah. And, yes, he addressed MO as “our achim baEidah”.
yichusdik:
Shiv’im panim laTorah applies only to Torah approaches, not to those outside of Torah like MO, as many gedolim have clearly stated and even entreated the MO to return.
MDG:
There is no reason that my posts should cause you anguish unless I somehow offended you personally, which I cannot recall doing.
Of course, if I have offended you personally, please tell me how I have done so; I certainly did not intend to do so. Moreover, my prior post was simply factual.
So instead of “losing it” and violating this severe prohibition (and continuing to insult me, too), you could have simply asked me respectfully, regardless of whether or not you think I engaged in “name calling” and “insult left and right” towards anyone else.
I still don’t understand why, for example, my post to ROB, would elicit the reaction from you that it did.
MDG:
I assume your misspelling of “HaKatan” was not intentional because you are surely aware that calling someone a derogatory nickname causes one to lose their Olam Haba. Certainly, you did not mean kesem as in “?????? ?????? ???? ??????? ???????” which is obviously not relevant here.
You greatly misunderstood my post. Rabbi Akiva was, of course, NOT naive. Bar Koziva was so great that, unfortunately, he was able to fool even Rabbi Akiva.
Regarding the Nazi leader, the recorded historical facts are not in accordance with Zionist whitewashes of their abominable behavior before, during and after WW II. Again, Rav Hutner (who also lived before, during and after WW II, including in E”Y) and others wrote about this. Rav Weissmandl also wrote much on this subject.
The Zionists have no answers.
ROB:
You have no answers for your idolatry and heresy. This has all been discussed numerous times. As well, when you bring up matters like Bar Koziva and the Holocaust, you are hurting, not helping, your idol.
May Hashem illuminate your eyes (and the rest of Klal Yisrael fooled by this evil idolatry and heresy) and guide you (and them) to the correct path, to His Torah.
ROB and others:
Of course, in a free society, everyone is entitled to their views. But, for Torah, there is only “eilu viEilu” for Torah-conforming views, which, as discussed, does not include Zionism. Your idolatry is not, CH”V, Torah.
Regarding this despicable libel on gedolim, it is worth pointing out that the Chazon Ish wrote that people who blame the gedolim for deaths in the holocaust are apikorsim.
Had the Zionists not declared war on Hitler in the name of world Jewry, and had they not lobbied governments to not allow Jews in to their country, etc. Rav Hutner wrote on this subject as did many others. No, it was not because of “the gedolim”.
MDG:
About what specifically are you asking for a source? This is not a chiddush.
ROB:
“kitzvaos uKAyalos haSadeh” essentially means “open-season on…just like hunted animals” CH”V.
Your complete submission to your idol keeps you in deep denial of history and reality. Millions of Jews were murdered in WW II, and various gedolim at the time had warned about that punishment that then came as a result of Jews worshiping this idol of Zionism. The Satmar Rav states clearly in his sefer the direct cause-and-effect, etc.
Your idolatrous government, despite its vaunted military (of shmad), etc. is pathetically ineffective against the savages who murdered and maimed so many Jews in E”Y, including a recent tragedy, where the savages’ murdered a Kallah’s brother and father, both, just before her wedding. That is very simply “open-season”. R”L L”A.
So there is nothing left to prove; it has already been amply proven, Hashem Yiracheim. Your idolatry just doesn’t allow you to see reality, so you have no choice but to insist on futilely attempting to defend the indefensible.
ROB:
As usual, you inadvertently serve to only discredit your idol instead of “helping it”. As a bonus, you seriously strain credibility of your usage of the word “rabbi” in your name.
Bar Kochba is known as “Bar Koziva”; in other words, a fraud.
Rivers of Jewish blood (literally) were spilled as a result of his rebellion, due to the violation of the oaths.
Rabbi Akiva backed Bar Koziva precisely and only because he fooled Rabbi Akiva into believing that he, BK, was Mashiach, at which point the oaths would no longer apply.
Your implied assertion, from BK’s war having happened before the gemara was compiled, is absurd.
The prohibition was merely recorded in the gemara then, not that it was any secret until that point nor was it not in force until that time, of course. The binei Ephraim (who escaped the inescapable Egypt) were nonetheless ch”v killed en route to E”Y when they violated the Oaths and left Egypt early (due to a miscalculation, of course, and not, CH”V, as an intentional rebellion).
Finally, your utter disregard for Rab Hirsch’s words is also distasteful.
The Zionists have no answers for their heresy and idolatry, and make themselves and their idol look silly when they try to defend the indefensible.
Matan1:
Is that not obvious, as noted by Rav Aharon Feldman and others?
Here are some quotes from Rav Aharon Feldman on this topic:
And:
Rav Elchonon Wasserman stated that the Zionists are the erev rav of today, and the Gra seems to have predicted the same.
Rav Steinman is quoted as having said the same, too.
Avi K:
You have not “proven” and such thing and the Satmar Rav, addresses this particular pathetic argument against the oaths in his sefer. Others do, as well, though of course it’s absurd to even suggest that the oaths don’t apply any more.
It is good that, at least, you admit to the possibility of them being in force.
The oaths are unequivocally in force, and the Zionists have no answers.
Sam2:
Are discussing the Torah here or something else?
What does “oaths from a navi” even mean?
The Zionist claim that the oaths are not binding is, of course, a non-starter since even the Zionists struggle mightily to dispense with them in other ways.
What part of “oneiss – Rachmana patreih” was not clear?
Again, why haven’t you brought korbanos? The Torah clearly requires one to do so.
This is absurd.
Avi K:
Ironic how the Zionists choose which gemaras to “hold of” (and to then twist to support their idolatry) and which ones to not hold of (to support their idolatry). This is, of course, in addition to the heresy of Zionism.
Your denial of what Zionism means is unfortunate, but even based on your own words, it is absolutely forbidden for Jews to have political sovereignty in E”Y and, therefore, in your own words, forbidden to be a Zionist.
ROB:
Regarding your post to DY, we discussed this already numerous times.
Yes, everything is min haShamayim, of course. Included in that is that Hashem also allows the Satan to test Klal Yisrael.
The Brisker Rav stated explicitly that the Zionists’ achievement in founding their idolatrous, heretical and dissastrous State (pushing off Mashiach in the process) is the greatest achievement of the Satan since the cheit haEigel.
The Zionists have no answers for their abomination.
ROB:
This is a relatively new law and cannot account for the decades in which the Zionists cruelly did not permit this.
As well, even with the law, one wonders if the “employer on the street” would hire a chareidi with the requisite skills despite his having not served in the army or would he be a loyal Zionist and not do so.
As well:
How are they supposed to feel their families until age 26 when the Zionists still forbid them from working?
Regarding Zionism, see the other threads.
You can’t define Zionism as “wanting to live in E”Y” or anything like that because that is simply not its definition.
Zionism is, simply, the identity theft and desire to “normalize” the Jewish people by changing it from a people based on the Torah into, lihavdil, a nationalist people based solely on a land (which happens to be E”Y) just so the Zionists could feel like they’re in the same club as the Gentiles. That’s Zionism.
Our greatest sages for around the past century have stated categorically and unequivocally that Zionism is idolatry, heresy and, obviously, is anti-Jewish to its core.
Avi K:
The Zionists do not allow chareidim in E”Y to get a job unless they submit themselves to its unique shmad, gilui arayos, et al. that is IDF service. If your idol would do away with that evil policy of theirs then the chareidim in E”Y will be able to work.
Until then, your idol is the reason they cannot work and their families live in poverty, etc. R”L L”A.
Sam2:
First, it is the MO and “RZ” that have exchanged portions of the Torah for, liHavdil, Zionism. They are the ones who are violating ikrei emunah, not myself and certainly not those I’ve quoted.
Regardless, I am surprised that you posted this. Accusing me of CH”V changing the Torah based on that post does not at all make sense. When’s the last time you brought a korban to the Bais HaMikdash? Why not? Are you changing the Torah?
Surely you are more than familiar with “Oneis – Rachmana Patrei”? The Torah certainly has NOT changed. CH”V. But this is galus and the three oaths apply in galus until Mashiach’s arrival BB”A.
In any event, I suppose that, as usual, the Zionists feel they know better than the likes of the Satmar Rav, (quoted by Rav Ovadia Yosef, as I mentioned) and the other Torah giants.
The Zionists have no answers.
Avi K:
Please see the previous posts.
Going back to the time of the Melachim, there were only 600 that didn’t bow to the Baal. That’s even with Eliyahu HaNavi in their midst. But when he called them out on it at Har HaCarmel, they at least said Hashem Hu HaElokim. Unfortunately, we don’t have a navi today to do so about Zionism. Fortunately, all it takes is a PURE Torah outlook to understand the simple truth of the gedolim’s many condemnations of Zionism (of all stripes).
The gedolim have clearly and unequivocally showed that the Zionists have no answers (including Rabbis Kook and Soloveitchik and on down). It is a great shame for people who think they are Torah-believing Jews to believe in this abominable false idol and heresy of Zionism that has also done cataclysmic damage to our People, R”L L”A.
Jazar:
As Mammele noted, Israel fraudulently claims the mantle of “Jewish” State. This is a “Big Lie”, of course, as the Zionist state is not a Jewish state but rather is a Zionist state which happens to be run by some who were born Jewish (and others who are not at all Jewish).
That people still believe in this idol and cover up (among much else) the Zionists’ atrocious behavior towards the Yemenites, how the Zionists INTENTIONALLY AND ACTIVELY shmaded them, which means that, as the nominal “Jewish State”, Israel intentionally and actively destroying their Jewish religious observance, something unparalleled in the European societies you mentioned.
Why can’t you accept reality and not expect to whitewash/ignore/deny every problem of Zionism the past 100 years?
Sam2 and Avi K:
Health is correct, of course, that the Jews were far, far, far better off in Arab lands and in E”Y as well before the Zionists invaded E”Y. Your own leader admitted as much. No, it wasn’t always perfect there. But it was, again, far, far, far better, both in ruchnius and in “safety” than the disaster that the Zionists have created.
The Zionists also cannot answer for their many misdeeds against the Jews from Teiman, for example, who had their mesorah intact going back to Bayis Rishon!!
There was no such a thing in Yemen as a “secular Jew” because the government simply didn’t permit it. Whereas, when the Zionists got their evil claws on the Teimanim, they shmaded them, threw away their sefarim, kisvei yad, etc. and did all they could to ENSURE they would be “secular” and, worse, Zionist heretical and idolatrous Jews like the Zionists. That’s besides all the other evil the Zionists perpetrated against them.
Yet there are Jews today, with a century of history and more, that still fall prey to this idol.
thetruth1234:
Due to the oaths, it is simply impossible for all Jews to emigrate to E”Y prior to Mashiach’s coming BB”A. (It’s also just as forbidden to antagonize the umos.)
So it therefore follows that this mitzva is clearly not mandatory at this time.
I have seen the following two options:
At best, it is an “optional” mitzva, meaning that although everyone is patur due to the oaths, if you nonetheless AS AN INDIVIDUAL AND IN PEACE manage to live in e”Y then you do get a mitzva. Regardless, everyone is patur from doing so. That’s at best. Otherwise, it is not in force at all, for anyone, until Mashiach comes BB”A, and living in E”Y does not inherently give you any additional mitzva versus living outside E”Y.
But, again, this mitzva of Yishuv E”Y CANNOT be in full force today.
Rav Ovadia Yosef Zatza”L discusses this in a teshuva and, at the end, quotes the Satmar Rav’s VaYoel Moshe on this. (So much for “the Satmar Shita” being only Satmar…)
VoYoel Moshe, of course, also has a piece on, among other Zionist errors, how the Zionists’ “for only 1,000 years” distortion from Rav Chaim Vital is totally erroneous.
rabbiofberlin wrote:
“I don’t see how you can say that they are against the medinah. That is ludicrous. The arguments you espouse have long been resolved, with the Holocaust and the establishment of the medinah. It may have historical curiosity, not reality.”
I respect your choice to be fooled by Zionism, R”L L”A. But please don’t spread lies.
As Rabbi Reisman wrote a short number of years ago, nothing has changed regarding the 3 Oaths (despite the terribly unfortunate fact that the Zionists achieved their dream of creating a State of Israel in order to shmad) and that and other (major) problems with Zionism as per the gedolim. The only change that did occur is what practical actions are demanded by this new “fact on the ground”. This could include, depending on your shita, voting in Zionist elections, for example. But the “opposition” to the state remains unchanged.
Zionism is the same idolatry and heresy that it always was. The very nature of the State of Israel is Zionist, which means that its reason for existence is to “normalize” the Jewish people and change them from the am haNivchar based on Torah to just another gentile nation based on a nation-state in Eretz Yisrael.
Avi K:
You’re asking about Paris and ISIS but ignoring the Arab terror ignited by the Zionists in E”Y for a century.
Again: the geodlim held already from a century ago through modern times that Zionism is idolatry and heresy. Even a leading Zionist Rabbi, Rabbi Hershel Schachter, said there are good reasons to NOT move to E”Y.
DY:
We discussed all this already.
Sam2:
There is a very big difference between the two items.
What I quoted from Rabbi YB Soloveitchik about the Zionists increasing the Arab hatred of Jews is plainly observable and also corroborated by others.
OTOH, what you quoted is, essentially, merely what he hoped for and felt.
As well, of course, none of the gedolim in his time agreed with him on that.
DaasYochid:
Demonstrated by whom? How?
I guess you have your own pshat in The Brisker Rav, Rav Elchonon, Rav Aharon Kotler and many others.
Avi K:
As the head of your idol, the Zionist Premier, stated after 9/11, Israel was used to experiencing 9/11 all the time.
The idolatry and heresy with which the Zionists try to fool everyone is understandable (shaani minus diMashchei). But the burying your heads in the Middle-Eastern sands to contradict plain and simple objective facts is mind-boggling.
Excluding the heretical Zionist prayer for the Zionist State during, liHavDil, laining, Jews the world over have been saying Tehillim for our brethren in E”Y, and have been doing so FOR DECADES, because…our brethren in E”Y are in the safest place in the world?
A father and son were just murdered by savages in Eretz Yisrael on Friday. The one-year anniversary of the Har Nof massacre has just passed, where Jews were murdered in shul! This is all besides for the rest of the oceans of Jewish blood that have been spilled in Eretz Yisrael since the Zionists began their invasion of E”Y around a century ago.
Zionists (of all stripes) themselves, including the likes of Rabbi YB Soloveitchik, admitted that Zionism has caused intense Arab hatred of Jews and the horrific results thereof. Are you denying what your own master has taught? And denying reality, too? Amazing.
Let’s be very clear:
What is mistakenly known as the Brisker/Satmar shita regarding Zionism in general is, as Joseph indicated, the ONLY Torah shita on Zionism.
The Chazon Ish is, of course, included in this; he worked alongside the Brisker Rav on various matters, including meeting (and “putting in his place” )the first Zionist premiere at the latter’s insistence.
It is true that there are minor differences on matters such as voting in Zionist elections. This is, of course, eilu viEilu.
But the idolatry and heresy of Zionism is not at all a matter of “eilu viEilu”; it is (plainly) indisputable and indeed undisputed by all Torah authorities with a legitimate mesorah untainted by the “isms” of the times.
Neville:
While one should pray that Hashem keep Jews safe everywhere, including in Eretz Yisrael, one should, of course, NOT pray for the idolatrous and heretical State of Israel, which is also ongoing shmad and that is holding back the geulah.
While the “Reishis Tzmichas Geulaseinu” nonsense in that invented artificial prayer is “based on” a forgery and fraud, the mere act of prayer for the State of Israel is not necessarily an idolatrous act just as their flag is not technically a symbol of idolatry as per Rav Moshe.
So, no, the two situations you mentioned are not comparable.
Regardless, what exactly do you mean that you consider Zionism to be “not full-blown idolatry” and, more importantly, therefore, in this context, that it is essentially “more Jewish” to be a Zionist (of any stripe) than it is to kiss a murderer on the cheek because you think you’re saving Jewish lives by doing so?
NK’s (Attempted) Pikuach Nefesh vs. Zionism’s (sort-of?) A”Z. You (and many others) feel the latter is more Jewish?
What I am getting at here, of course, is that Zionism seems to have succeeded in implanting feelings of (artificial and heretical) “Jewish Nationalism”, even in some who do not consider themselves Zionists, to the point that it completely reverses their sensitivities and priorities.
Because if you have a bigger problem with NK than you do with someone who is “sort of” worshiping idols, then something outside of Torah (and something obviously anti-Torah) must be influencing you to think that way.
yytz:
This is probably a waste of time, but…
Are you denying that Jewish girls have fallen prey to these savages, married them, and then had to be literally rescued from them? That these organizations solicit money from Jews OUTSIDE E”Y for this? This is not some abstract debatable idea; it’s obviously very real.
By your “logic”, one could choose to settle in some Arab hell hole refugee camp in E”Y and claim that since they’re doing a mitzva of settling the land that they can come to no harm.
But your logic is already proven to be not true based on all the rivers of Jewish blood spilled in E”Y, HY”D, the blood of people who were doing that (allegedly in-force) mitzvah of settling the land. Yet that didn’t stop Hashem from allowing all the savage attacks in His holy land.
And when you claim that one “need not worry that his Torah will suffer”, I guess you feel you know better than Rabbi Herschel Schachter who claimed that one SHOULD have that concern.
Next, what, exactly, does the land need defending from? The land does not seem in any danger. Do you mean to say that defending the State of Israel is a mitzva? Clearly, the gedolim have ruled decades ago that this is not so.
As to the gemara in Kesubos that you quoted, as mentioned, RHS was surely aware of that gemara yet he still stated that you should NOT live in E”Y if it will negatively affect your ruchnius, etc.
Zionism is heresy and idolatry and the Zionists have no answers.
Neville:
I certainly did not mean to accuse, but I think the response is nonetheless on point.
I also find your hypothetical comparison in your latest post to be interesting, and well worth analyzing. And I agree that bias could play a role here.
Let’s examine the facts:
The NK member’s goal is correct and even vital, perhaps to the level of pikuach nefesh, but, in the final analysis, his particular methodology is incorrect.
Whereas the “RZ” are (as products of their education system, etc.) engaged in idolatry and heresy.
So:
If you remove all the labels and ask an objective Torah Jew which of the two is less Jewish, the answer is absolutely the “RZ” because he has destroyed, or at least severely damaged, his very IDENTITY as a (Torah) Jew. Whereas the NK could be (or is) misguided in these particular actions, but could otherwise be the same maamin as the greatest gadol.
The question, then, is: what “bias” would make someone call it the other way, to make kissing a murderer (done to hopefully save Jewish lives) to be far worse than idolatry and heresy?
Since someone brought up intermarriage:
First, those statistics of American intermarriage are regarding Jews who never had a Jewish education. So this is irrelevant.
But, while on the topic, if a woman goes off the derech in E”Y she is NOT likely to marry a Jew; unfortunately, in many cases, girls “married” a Muslim Arab and went through living hell including bearing children from that savage who’d beat her and treat her like trash until some compassionate and daring Jews would manage to get her out of the hell-hole in which she lived. Not to mention that Arabs are the cashiers, the workers, etc. fully integrated into the Jewish societies in E”Y, and they know how to flatter women…
So, in Israel, there are organizations dedicated to freeing these naive women from their Arab masters and tormentors in Israel, and nothing remotely like that anywhere else in the world. Yet you absurdly claim that chutz laAretz is the concern?
The idolatry of Zionism is so strong that people say and do the most illogical and strangest things and don’t even understand that, were it not for the A”Z, they would seem to be under some influence of some very strong substances.
But that’s what A”Z does to a person. In case anyone wonders how it was in Eliyahu HaNavi’s time that only 600 people did not bow to baal, one need only look at the immense confusion wrought by Zionism on so many otherwise intelligent people.
Wow. So much irrationality and even nonsense in so few posts. Even the title of the post is absurd. A much better question, of course, is does anyone have a good excuse to move to the portion of E”Y that the Zionists invaded given that Zionism is shmad and that the Zionists have riled up the savages in the region, etc.
Let’s start with a paraphrase from Rabbi Herschel Schachter himself from a recent Yom HaAtzamos lecture:
If a person’s learning, ruchnius, etc. will be better in chutz LaAretz then he should certainly stay in chutz laAretz.
So the question posed in the title is absurd; even RHS would tell you to stay for those reasons.
Now lets go, lihavdil, to Traditional Orthodoxy.
The Brisker Rav noted: Two things are certain: Zionism is A”Z and all who live in E”Y stumble in Zionism.
Consider that for a moment. Are you sure you want to stumble in A”Z when there is a viable alternative?
The answer, of course, is that Zionist idolatry does not allow the MO/”RZ”s to consider that there is an alternative to stumbling in that idolatry even as they live in Teaneck or wherever else. On the contrary, “making aliyah” is perhaps the greatest mitzvah in their theology, just like Zionism takes precedence over Jewish lives in Zionist theology. It’s sad, really.
ZB:
I disagree.