HaKatan

Zionism is a massive physical churban, too.

The Zionists successfully lobbied governments AGAINST allowing Jews during WW II in to their respective countries.

The Zionists, who claimed to and were given to represent world Jewry for around a century, considered Zionism to be the greatest priority over everything including Jewish lives, and therefore insisted that Jews somehow get to Palestine or suffer their fate by the Nazi mass murderers.

Think about that for a minute, especially given their lies about being protectors of Jews. With friends like that…

Besides for the spiritual cause of the Holocaust, the Zionists very much did their physical share, too, including what was mentioned above. The motto of Zionism during WW II was “rak beDam tihye lanu haAretz”, and that meant Jewish blood.

Zionists today would be wise to avoid WW II in their attempted defense of their idol.

And the inflammation of the Arab world is also a physical problem of the State, not “only” a spiritual one.

Zionism has been and is a uniquely disastrous calamity for the Jewish people.

ROB:

How dare you conflate your idol with “Eretz Yisrael” and accuse Health and others of “seeing only the bad in E”Y”? CH”V.

Health and others very clearly distinguished between the land and, liHavdil, your idol of Zionism.

yichusdik:

This has zero to do with any opinion of mine – I merely quoted – and it is plain fact that MO has zero historical authenticity. We have gone over this in many other threads.

Joseph has quoted your “Rav”‘s “chameish drashot”, where he clearly states that MO was a radical new invention that he thought was necessary, that Traditional Orthodoxy would become a museum piece, etc.

With the benefit of hindsight, this is obviously not the case. That’s besides for the gedolim’s clear and strong condemnation of MO, Zionism, etc. with one even specifically stating explicitly that your “Rav” cannot be considered as a link in the mesorah from Sinai.

Again, it is absurd to suggest that “shiv’im panim laTorah” can justify a non-starter like MO, Zionism or any other kefirah, A”Z, etc.

Nonetheless, Rav Schwab seemed to recognize that MO was simply misguided and, therefore, implored them to return to the Torah. And, yes, he addressed MO as “our achim baEidah”.

MDG:

There is no reason that my posts should cause you anguish unless I somehow offended you personally, which I cannot recall doing.

Of course, if I have offended you personally, please tell me how I have done so; I certainly did not intend to do so. Moreover, my prior post was simply factual.

So instead of “losing it” and violating this severe prohibition (and continuing to insult me, too), you could have simply asked me respectfully, regardless of whether or not you think I engaged in “name calling” and “insult left and right” towards anyone else.

I still don’t understand why, for example, my post to ROB, would elicit the reaction from you that it did.

ROB and others:

Of course, in a free society, everyone is entitled to their views. But, for Torah, there is only “eilu viEilu” for Torah-conforming views, which, as discussed, does not include Zionism. Your idolatry is not, CH”V, Torah.

Regarding this despicable libel on gedolim, it is worth pointing out that the Chazon Ish wrote that people who blame the gedolim for deaths in the holocaust are apikorsim.

Had the Zionists not declared war on Hitler in the name of world Jewry, and had they not lobbied governments to not allow Jews in to their country, etc. Rav Hutner wrote on this subject as did many others. No, it was not because of “the gedolim”.

ROB:

As usual, you inadvertently serve to only discredit your idol instead of “helping it”. As a bonus, you seriously strain credibility of your usage of the word “rabbi” in your name.

Bar Kochba is known as “Bar Koziva”; in other words, a fraud.

Rivers of Jewish blood (literally) were spilled as a result of his rebellion, due to the violation of the oaths.

Rabbi Akiva backed Bar Koziva precisely and only because he fooled Rabbi Akiva into believing that he, BK, was Mashiach, at which point the oaths would no longer apply.

Your implied assertion, from BK’s war having happened before the gemara was compiled, is absurd.

The prohibition was merely recorded in the gemara then, not that it was any secret until that point nor was it not in force until that time, of course. The binei Ephraim (who escaped the inescapable Egypt) were nonetheless ch”v killed en route to E”Y when they violated the Oaths and left Egypt early (due to a miscalculation, of course, and not, CH”V, as an intentional rebellion).

Finally, your utter disregard for Rab Hirsch’s words is also distasteful.

The Zionists have no answers for their heresy and idolatry, and make themselves and their idol look silly when they try to defend the indefensible.

Rav Elchonon Wasserman stated that the Zionists are the erev rav of today, and the Gra seems to have predicted the same.

Rav Steinman is quoted as having said the same, too.

Avi K:

Ironic how the Zionists choose which gemaras to “hold of” (and to then twist to support their idolatry) and which ones to not hold of (to support their idolatry). This is, of course, in addition to the heresy of Zionism.

Your denial of what Zionism means is unfortunate, but even based on your own words, it is absolutely forbidden for Jews to have political sovereignty in E”Y and, therefore, in your own words, forbidden to be a Zionist.

ROB:

Regarding your post to DY, we discussed this already numerous times.

Yes, everything is min haShamayim, of course. Included in that is that Hashem also allows the Satan to test Klal Yisrael.

The Brisker Rav stated explicitly that the Zionists’ achievement in founding their idolatrous, heretical and dissastrous State (pushing off Mashiach in the process) is the greatest achievement of the Satan since the cheit haEigel.

The Zionists have no answers for their abomination.

Regarding Zionism, see the other threads.

You can’t define Zionism as “wanting to live in E”Y” or anything like that because that is simply not its definition.

Zionism is, simply, the identity theft and desire to “normalize” the Jewish people by changing it from a people based on the Torah into, lihavdil, a nationalist people based solely on a land (which happens to be E”Y) just so the Zionists could feel like they’re in the same club as the Gentiles. That’s Zionism.

Our greatest sages for around the past century have stated categorically and unequivocally that Zionism is idolatry, heresy and, obviously, is anti-Jewish to its core.

Sam2:

First, it is the MO and “RZ” that have exchanged portions of the Torah for, liHavdil, Zionism. They are the ones who are violating ikrei emunah, not myself and certainly not those I’ve quoted.

Regardless, I am surprised that you posted this. Accusing me of CH”V changing the Torah based on that post does not at all make sense. When’s the last time you brought a korban to the Bais HaMikdash? Why not? Are you changing the Torah?

Surely you are more than familiar with “Oneis – Rachmana Patrei”? The Torah certainly has NOT changed. CH”V. But this is galus and the three oaths apply in galus until Mashiach’s arrival BB”A.

In any event, I suppose that, as usual, the Zionists feel they know better than the likes of the Satmar Rav, (quoted by Rav Ovadia Yosef, as I mentioned) and the other Torah giants.

The Zionists have no answers.

Jazar:

As Mammele noted, Israel fraudulently claims the mantle of “Jewish” State. This is a “Big Lie”, of course, as the Zionist state is not a Jewish state but rather is a Zionist state which happens to be run by some who were born Jewish (and others who are not at all Jewish).

That people still believe in this idol and cover up (among much else) the Zionists’ atrocious behavior towards the Yemenites, how the Zionists INTENTIONALLY AND ACTIVELY shmaded them, which means that, as the nominal “Jewish State”, Israel intentionally and actively destroying their Jewish religious observance, something unparalleled in the European societies you mentioned.

Why can’t you accept reality and not expect to whitewash/ignore/deny every problem of Zionism the past 100 years?

thetruth1234:

Due to the oaths, it is simply impossible for all Jews to emigrate to E”Y prior to Mashiach’s coming BB”A. (It’s also just as forbidden to antagonize the umos.)

So it therefore follows that this mitzva is clearly not mandatory at this time.

I have seen the following two options:

At best, it is an “optional” mitzva, meaning that although everyone is patur due to the oaths, if you nonetheless AS AN INDIVIDUAL AND IN PEACE manage to live in e”Y then you do get a mitzva. Regardless, everyone is patur from doing so. That’s at best. Otherwise, it is not in force at all, for anyone, until Mashiach comes BB”A, and living in E”Y does not inherently give you any additional mitzva versus living outside E”Y.

But, again, this mitzva of Yishuv E”Y CANNOT be in full force today.

Rav Ovadia Yosef Zatza”L discusses this in a teshuva and, at the end, quotes the Satmar Rav’s VaYoel Moshe on this. (So much for “the Satmar Shita” being only Satmar…)

VoYoel Moshe, of course, also has a piece on, among other Zionist errors, how the Zionists’ “for only 1,000 years” distortion from Rav Chaim Vital is totally erroneous.

Avi K:

You’re asking about Paris and ISIS but ignoring the Arab terror ignited by the Zionists in E”Y for a century.

Again: the geodlim held already from a century ago through modern times that Zionism is idolatry and heresy. Even a leading Zionist Rabbi, Rabbi Hershel Schachter, said there are good reasons to NOT move to E”Y.

DY:

We discussed all this already.

DaasYochid:

Demonstrated by whom? How?

I guess you have your own pshat in The Brisker Rav, Rav Elchonon, Rav Aharon Kotler and many others.

Avi K:

As the head of your idol, the Zionist Premier, stated after 9/11, Israel was used to experiencing 9/11 all the time.

The idolatry and heresy with which the Zionists try to fool everyone is understandable (shaani minus diMashchei). But the burying your heads in the Middle-Eastern sands to contradict plain and simple objective facts is mind-boggling.

Excluding the heretical Zionist prayer for the Zionist State during, liHavDil, laining, Jews the world over have been saying Tehillim for our brethren in E”Y, and have been doing so FOR DECADES, because…our brethren in E”Y are in the safest place in the world?

A father and son were just murdered by savages in Eretz Yisrael on Friday. The one-year anniversary of the Har Nof massacre has just passed, where Jews were murdered in shul! This is all besides for the rest of the oceans of Jewish blood that have been spilled in Eretz Yisrael since the Zionists began their invasion of E”Y around a century ago.

Zionists (of all stripes) themselves, including the likes of Rabbi YB Soloveitchik, admitted that Zionism has caused intense Arab hatred of Jews and the horrific results thereof. Are you denying what your own master has taught? And denying reality, too? Amazing.

Neville:

While one should pray that Hashem keep Jews safe everywhere, including in Eretz Yisrael, one should, of course, NOT pray for the idolatrous and heretical State of Israel, which is also ongoing shmad and that is holding back the geulah.

While the “Reishis Tzmichas Geulaseinu” nonsense in that invented artificial prayer is “based on” a forgery and fraud, the mere act of prayer for the State of Israel is not necessarily an idolatrous act just as their flag is not technically a symbol of idolatry as per Rav Moshe.

So, no, the two situations you mentioned are not comparable.

Regardless, what exactly do you mean that you consider Zionism to be “not full-blown idolatry” and, more importantly, therefore, in this context, that it is essentially “more Jewish” to be a Zionist (of any stripe) than it is to kiss a murderer on the cheek because you think you’re saving Jewish lives by doing so?

NK’s (Attempted) Pikuach Nefesh vs. Zionism’s (sort-of?) A”Z. You (and many others) feel the latter is more Jewish?

What I am getting at here, of course, is that Zionism seems to have succeeded in implanting feelings of (artificial and heretical) “Jewish Nationalism”, even in some who do not consider themselves Zionists, to the point that it completely reverses their sensitivities and priorities.

Because if you have a bigger problem with NK than you do with someone who is “sort of” worshiping idols, then something outside of Torah (and something obviously anti-Torah) must be influencing you to think that way.

Neville:

I certainly did not mean to accuse, but I think the response is nonetheless on point.

I also find your hypothetical comparison in your latest post to be interesting, and well worth analyzing. And I agree that bias could play a role here.

Let’s examine the facts:

The NK member’s goal is correct and even vital, perhaps to the level of pikuach nefesh, but, in the final analysis, his particular methodology is incorrect.

Whereas the “RZ” are (as products of their education system, etc.) engaged in idolatry and heresy.

So:

If you remove all the labels and ask an objective Torah Jew which of the two is less Jewish, the answer is absolutely the “RZ” because he has destroyed, or at least severely damaged, his very IDENTITY as a (Torah) Jew. Whereas the NK could be (or is) misguided in these particular actions, but could otherwise be the same maamin as the greatest gadol.

The question, then, is: what “bias” would make someone call it the other way, to make kissing a murderer (done to hopefully save Jewish lives) to be far worse than idolatry and heresy?

Wow. So much irrationality and even nonsense in so few posts. Even the title of the post is absurd. A much better question, of course, is does anyone have a good excuse to move to the portion of E”Y that the Zionists invaded given that Zionism is shmad and that the Zionists have riled up the savages in the region, etc.

Let’s start with a paraphrase from Rabbi Herschel Schachter himself from a recent Yom HaAtzamos lecture:

If a person’s learning, ruchnius, etc. will be better in chutz LaAretz then he should certainly stay in chutz laAretz.

So the question posed in the title is absurd; even RHS would tell you to stay for those reasons.

Now lets go, lihavdil, to Traditional Orthodoxy.

The Brisker Rav noted: Two things are certain: Zionism is A”Z and all who live in E”Y stumble in Zionism.

Consider that for a moment. Are you sure you want to stumble in A”Z when there is a viable alternative?

The answer, of course, is that Zionist idolatry does not allow the MO/”RZ”s to consider that there is an alternative to stumbling in that idolatry even as they live in Teaneck or wherever else. On the contrary, “making aliyah” is perhaps the greatest mitzvah in their theology, just like Zionism takes precedence over Jewish lives in Zionist theology. It’s sad, really.

Avi K:

1. So if Jews die for the a football team to win the championships then that makes the team holy?

Even better, the American flag is, then, also holy, because Jews have died in the American army for America?

2. No. The quote from Rav Elchanan Wasserman goes something like “Zionism is A”Z; Religious Zionism is religion mixed with A”Z”.

3. It’s irrelevant regardless. He wrote during the war and clearly is not in a position to take on the gedolim who both preceded and followed him who very much do not agree with what the Zionists try to make Rabbi Teichtal say.

flatbusher:

I didn’t mean to say it is or isn’t a shaila; I simply meant that I am, of course, not paskening.

If you want my personal opinion, it is definitely worth asking a reliable Rav if there are any gedarim involved in Shabbos guests.

flatbusher:

Obviously, like all halachic and hashkafic matters, this is something for an LOR to decide.

Having said that:

LiChaOra, it is not a reduction of a woman’s dignity and honor of a bas melech if she is present in the same house as a guest (assuming, of course, that no issur is encountered).

Whereas with a newspaper, every pair of eyes that sees her picture is an automatic reduction of her kavod.

Mashiach Agent:

The Zionists actually created a “Brit haBiryonim” back in the day. It is the Zionists who are like the biryonim who destroyed Yerushalayim’s food supplies in an attempt to “force” Jews to fight the Romans by the Churban, thereby, of course, hastening the destruction of the city and of course causing unimaginable pain and suffering as their fellow Jews starved to death. These are the heroes of the Zionists.

Whereas by Chanukah, as frumhersh pointed out, it was a mitzvah to fight the Greeks because they were out to secularize the Jews, as the Zionists do today, but it was NOT a fight for land or even physical safety. The Zionists, of course, distorted this and made it sound like some nationalist event, as is their usual modus operandi of shmad.

As usual, the Zionists continue to be on the wrong side of history.

ZD:

If I had to guess, I would assume the reason for their behavior is that Pikuach nefesh is docheh Shabbos.

The NK feel they are literally saving Jewish lives worldwide and they could possibly be very well correct in that assessment.

golfer:

It is foolish to spout nonsense in response to documented historical fact repeated to us by Torah greats over the past century, many of whom were there at the time and actually lived that history.

Big Boy:

I certainly did not mean any disrespect, CH”V, when quoting Rav Moshe, and I don’t see how referring to Rav Moshe as “him” as opposed to “Rav Moshe” is in any way disrespectful. Of course, you did not care to elaborate on how you feel I distorted “a direct psak from Rav Moshe”.

Regarding the OP:

The Religious Zionists have staked their future and indeed their faith with the Zionists. They have created a new nationalist religion called “Religious Zionism” that happens to contain many Torah-based practices in addition to Nationalism/Zionism and many severe distortions of the Torah, CH”V.

There is also the minor matter that the “Religious Zionists” have acted against the Torah and Klal Yisrael going back to, for example, Yaldei Tehran, pre-1948. The Brisker Rav lived in E”Y both before and after the Zionists formalized their invasion of E”Y with the creation of their idolatrous State. The Brisker Rav wrote regarding the “DL” education system that they preach a drop of Torah mixed in to a sea of heresy.

Viewed in this light, it is understandable why the traditional orthodox population in E”Y is not exactly thrilled with “D”L.

This cannot be remotely compared to Chassidim and Litvaks and also cannot be compared to Traditional Orthodox and “MO” in the USA.

Regarding the latter, Rav Shimon Schwab, years ago, implored MO to abandon their “stagnation” and “foolishness bordering on heresy” and return to the true path of the Torah. B”H, it seems that, at least in part, this is happening. Countless former YU students go on to study in Traditional Orthodox yeshivos both in Eretz Yisrael and in America, etc. B”H.

Even if histaklus were not an issue, and no matter how old and well-dressed the woman may be, it’s still a violation of tznius for a woman, fully tznius, to be put on display in front of people, especially tens of thousands of people as is the case with a newspaper.