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Someone pointed out that we have in this generation all the chesronos of the Dor haMabul, Dor haFlaga and Sedom. It’s both amazing and frightening that America could have taken such a drastic dive into sheker and toeiva as it has, especially recently.
(To his credit, President Trump brought back some decency to the country, but to no avail, as the current administration has dictated a total reversal of that and then worsening the same.)
The good news in all this is that we have a mesorah from Rav Chaim Volozhin that the last station in Galus for Torah is America. And since America (meaning the USA), as we knew it, seems to be fading into history, that means that Mashiach’s arrival must be imminent BB”A.
Avi K:
Nothing in your recent reply seems to have addressed the concern I raised above regarding children potentially learning improper hashkafos.It’s very possible that even an “Orthodox” Jew – especially one who spends his time on areas of *thought* that are outside of Torah – might have an improper hashkafa.
Therefore, you should not have your children (and possibly even yourself) listen to them because the children might absorb an improper hashkafa, and that could cause real spiritual damage R”L L”A.
I know this all sounds foreign to anyone who was educated with the poison of “Modern Orthodoxy”, but, as you wrote, accept the truth from whomever says it.
The point that others made about the nivul peh on some of his shows is a very valid one as well.
Avi K:
I think you missed my point because, unfortunately, modern-day Haskala, known as “Modern Orthodoxy”, does not ascribe the proper value to Hashkafa (and also not to Halacha, for that matter, but that’s a different point).I specifically mentioned “proper hashkafos”, as in “hashkafa”, not “halakha” (as it is spelled in your world).
Hashkafa literally means outlook which includes, of course, how you think. Listening to Mr. Shapiro’s shows will almost certainly influence how you think. As mentioned above, he is not daas Torah and, of course, does not claim to be.
Therefore, if once cares about their kids’ hashkafos, they might want to reconsider allowing them to listen to his shows, as I mentioned.
n0mesorah:
Actually communism, with the atheism that comes with it, is much more of an Avoda Zara than any other political stance.That depends on how much you value your kids’ getting only proper hashkafos.
While Mr. Shapiro speaks very well against liberal insanity, he is, nonetheless, not “daas Torah”, so there is no guarantee that everything he says will be in accordance with Daas Torah.
Sam Klein:
True, but then you need to pay another $500 per month or more to pay that additional amount mortgaged and likely PMI, making the monthly payment on a typical house + tuitions for a typical frum middle class family even less affordable.CTRebbe:
I would venture to guess that some have parents or others helping them with their housing or they are otherwise living in sub-standard conditions, which therefore enables them to afford some “luxuries”.But it is not normal to need help from your parents, even when you are both working.
Regarding out-of-town, in most cases that means, maybe, as low as $300,000 instead of, say, $500,000, (figure $10,000 per year saved) and possible lower taxes (figure $5,000 per year saved), though usually higher tuitions would more than make up that ($15,000) difference.
Either way, it’s still insanely expensive. 40 years ago, salaries were not much lower than now, but house prices were less than just the down-payment is now. Meaning, say, $60,000 for a house, not $600,000. And taxes were also thousands less.
The bottom line is that unless someone else is paying the down-payment and perhaps even more than that, a middle-class typical frum family cannot afford to pay tuitions and buy a house in a typical frum area.
Of course there is a middle-class crisis.
No, just because many in the 5 Towns and elsewhere are either upper-class (Two salaries of at least $100K or the equivalent) and/or have help from relatives, that doesn’t address the middle class.
Take typical salaries of today and typical house prices and real estate taxes of today, and compare the those to the same 10, 20, 30 and 40 years ago.
House prices used to be far, far, lower, while typical salaries have basically stayed the same over that period.
House prices in frum areas are typically $500K or more, with Real Estate Taxes at around $10K per year or more. If you live in NYC, the RE Taxes are lower but you likely more than make up for that with your City income tax.
For a 500K house, that means you need $100K just for the down payment. Even if you could somehow cover that (rich in-laws/uncle/whatever), that still leaves about $400K to mortgage, or about $3,000 per month including Real Estate taxes but before utilities, maintenance, repairs, etc.
Figure $50K per year total, after tax, just for the house. That’s already one “normal” salary (again, after tax).
Now add tuitions, even with breaks, and you’re looking at another $20,000-$30,000 or more, depending on the schools and number of kids.
So you need about $80,000 AFTER tax for just the house and tuitions. That’s without the car or cars, food and clothing, not to mention camp (as in day camp, never mind sleep-away).
And if both parents are working, then you likely need babysitting, which is another large expense (and also a big problem because in many cases those babysitters are not Jews, so that means the kids are effectively being raised, to a large degree, by a non-Jew).
Yes, this is insane.
@se2015
I want to understand this liberal “logic”.
A woman has a “right to choose” to murder her unborn/partially born infant. But that same woman (or man) cannot choose to forgo a vaccine?OP:
Presumably, the OP is referring to conspiracy theories, which I have not read, so I can’t comment on those theories.My question is, though, whatever those theories may claim, what does that have anything to do with Hashem running the world?
In other words, what the gentiles do or don’t intend to do is one discussion. LiHavdil, that Hashem runs the world and allows only what He sees fit to allow, is a separate matter.
Rabbi Yaakov Shapiro has a nice shiur on this topic:
if I understood correctly, the answer is that this way we could earn MORE reward. Otherwise, everyone would just be the same…It’s not “we”; these Israeli girls are naive, and not necessarily coordinating with their parents.
akuperma:
Secular colleges also have mixing of genders (an issue not only during online classes but perhaps for group projects and the like), the horrific modern culture which pervades them including some of the courses, which they might require, that are anti-Torah to the core, and more real problems.The pritzus issue alone, even in a virtual classroom, is enough reason to avoid secular colleges.
That’s besides for “minor” issues, like classes or exams scheduled on Shabbos/Yom Tov, etc.
This question seems odd. Of course American Jews, like all Jews, care about E”Y. It is Hashem’s holy land, and we daven at least three times each day that Hashem send Mashiach and return us all there BB”A.
But none of the discussion here has anything to do with Eretz Yisrael.
If the question was do we care about our brethren in E”Y, then the answer to that is, of course we do, just like we care about our brethren in France, China or anywhere else.
If the question is “Do American Jews care about [international relationships with] the Zionist State of Israel?” then that is an entirely different question.
The answer to that the question is:
1. The question is really irrelevant because this country has a strategic interest that Israel maintain its QME, or Qualitative Military Edge. It has nothing to do with Jews, antisemitism, and the like but rather plain strategic interest. So our elections are largely irrelevant to the State of Israel.
2. We (those who do not worship at the idolatrous altar of Zionism) recognize that Zionism and its State have always been an enormous liability and cause of suffering to the Jewish people. So, we have zero interest in the Zionist regime (the State of Israel) that has invaded large portions of E”Y over a century ago and that has shmaded our brethren there and world-wide. We care only about our brethren (Jews) world-wide.My prior posts in response haven’t been approved.
I
l’ll try again.The איסור להתגרות באומות העולם is just as in force as it always has been since the start of galus.
However, if we look to both Chanukah and Purim, we see an interesting difference, which Rabbi Yaakov Shapiro points out in various media.
On Chanukah, we used the tools of Esav against the misyavnim and yevanim, because the latter groups’ target was the Torah, not us, so we had to defend the Torah by even resorting to Esav’s tools when needed.
By contrast, on Purim, we used our tools to annul the gezeira, namely Tefillah and Teshuva, because the target then was “only” us, not the Torah, so using Esav’s tools would not have worked there. Obviously, the story continues from there, but that’s besides the point.
Same with the Zionists (Esav’s tools have still not achieved the Zionists even a single day of peace in its bloody existence).
This particular words of this (not very “well known”) “community activist” are not indicative of the rest of Klal Yisrael. However, it is a chutzpah and rishus for the authorities to close down the shuls (10 people only no matter what is the building size?), especially at this point.
@daniela:
Surely you know that those two situations are not even remotely comparable.@always_ask_questions
Your recent posts are somewhat ironic given your screen name.
My post clearly delineated multiple reasons why wearing a mask or not doing so do not carry halachic implications including Chilul Hashem.I would be interested to know to which Rav you refer, or at least in which Yeshiva he learned and how long ago, etc. But that’s not really relevant, anyways, I guess.
mkylb:
Surely you mean well, but
1. You don’t know for a fact that we have witnessed higher infection rates, nor are you taking into account larger family densities than liHavdil the gentiles, which would explain that alleged higher rate. But that allegedly higher rate is anyways false. It’s also irrelevant because you have to know on what it is based. For example, if only sick people get tested, then the rate will obviously be higher than other places where healthy people are being tested. Etc.
2. You should not make false blanket statements claiming that we haven’t followed the government’s rules. In my shul, and others in which I have davened, everyone is strict about wearing masks.
3. You also don’t know if the government’s science is sound or mistaken. There are plenty of videos from people with degrees and experience in these areas who say that masks don’t help. Back in March, I think even Dr. Fauci himself said so, if I recall. The virus, in my understanding, is way smaller than the tiny holes in the mask, so a mask is, essentially, no better than breathing through a mesh screen door, though it might be better than nothing.
4. With all due respect, unless you learned in Seminary or elsewhere the halachos and parameters of Chilul Hashem, then I would not be so quick to label this a Chilul Hashem, even without the above three points, and potentially create an actual Chilul Hashem of giving up on Tznius, etc. to try to effect change in this matter. Even if you do know the halachos, though, your keeping tznius will surely accomplish much more than anything you could do by violating that.rational:
Excellent post, in my humble opinion.
However, I think that there is a difference here.
The Governor and Mayor are essentially imposing a gezeiras shmad. No shuls, no schools, etc.On Chanukah, we fought the Yevanim, even with actual tools of war, Esav’s tools, because they threatened the Torah. Whereas, on Purim, when it was “only” our lives that were threatened, we did teshuva, davened, etc. until the gezeirah was nullified. And the story continues there.
This current period whatever precise context it may be, includes this gezeiras shmad, which is also, liHavdil, also against our constitutional rights.
So that seems to call for a vocal defense of the Torah, including Agudath Israel’s lawsuit against this terrible over-reach by the City and State governments.
1:
No, the Zionist State of “Israel” is a political construct (as in a governing entity), not a land. Therefore, it is obviously not the homeland of the Jews.As akuperma noted, that political construct, the State of Israel, happens to be far worse than the gentiles here.
As to Eretz Yisrael, that used to be the homeland (in the literal, not Nationalist, sense) of the Jews until Hashem kicked us out, forbidding us to return to E”Y either en masse and/or against the wishes of the Nations, as well as forbidding us from claiming political sovereignty.
The Zionists, representing only themselves, not the Jewish people, in their Zionist quest to remake the Jewish people from a Torah-based nation into an idolatrous/godless Nationalist gentile-type nation, flagrantly violated all of the above and more with their creation of their heretical State of Israel, intentionally usurping the name of our Jewish people, “Israel” as the name for their idol State.
n0 mesorah:
Zionism as in ideology, and as embodied by the State of Israel, is anti-Torah and (therefore) anti-Judaism.
Zionism attempts to change the Jewish people’s perception of themselves (never mind the danger to Jews R”L of the gentiles believing this Big Lie) from a Torah-based nation to a godless Nationalist/idolatrous nation.
This hasn’t changed and, as mentioned, this is more important to them (and lethal, Ch”V to Judaism) than the Zionists having achieved a State in 1948. The corruption of the definition of a Jew is far worse. Once you remove Hashem and the Torah from the picture, you are left with…Zionism? Atheism? Certainly nothing Jewish.
Regarding your assessment of the sefarim, I don’t know what you mean about the “future” not happening as they expected.
The bottom line is that we will always have a place to live in galus until Mashiach comes. Of course, the Zionists did their best in WW II to prevent Jews from going anywhere other than Palestine even if that meant their alternative was the Nazi gas chambers.
But to throw away the Torah because of a question of “where will we go from here” is simply silly. There always will be a place to live in galus. And there would have been more even during the Holocaust were it not for the Zionists’ evil treachery and prioritizing Zionism above all else.
Starting a State at a cost of the Jewish religion, not to mention billions of dollars and tens of thousands of Jewish lives and inflaming anti-semitism, etc. etc. is absurd. It’s also extremely deadly, because the punishment stated for doing specifically that is “Ani mattir es bisarchem…” R”L L”A.
Besalel:
Zionism did not end in 1948, as you think. It also doesn’t mean founding a State.To quote Rav Chaim Brisker, people think the Zionists shmad in order to gain a State. In fact, it is the opposite: they need the State in order to shmad.
Even the Israeli politicians of today still speak of it today.
The World Zionist Organization, the same one founded by Herzl YM”S, is still very much a Zionist force and, unfortunately, tens of thousands of Jews were recently scammed into voting for a “religious” (non-Mizrachi) party there (and literally accepting Zionist kefirah in the process when accepting the Zionist shmad “Jerusalem Program”).
So you first have to understand what is Zionism. It is not about founding the state in 1948. It’s not a secret and it’s not some academic matter. It’s right on the WZO’s web site, and on the State of Israel’s sites, too.
Regarding your comparison to Japan, that is not accurate. Hashem does not want the State of Israel to be. Never did and never will. Period. There is nothing to discuss other how to deal with the reality of that State’s (very) lamentable existence.
n0 mesorah:
I wish I could better understand your post so that I could attempt to answer it. But it seems that your understanding of Torah Judaism and liHavdil, both history and Zionism, might have to do with this communications gap.Regarding Zionism, please see my post to yichusdik above.
Please also look up Yaldei Teiman and Yaldei Tehran. And the recent (and current) battles against the Zionists to stop them from closing the yeshivos by drafting Yeshiva boys into their shmad army.
Much more importantly, please read what all the gedolim have written about Zionism from even before 1948, like, for example, Rav Elchanan Wasserman (including in the name of his Rebbi, the Chofetz Chaim), and also from after 1948, like Rav Reuven Grozovsky’s Biayos haZman and the Satmar Rav’s sefarim (on which nobody of note has argued except on minor points like davening at the Kosel and on Israeli citizens voting in Israeli elections).
Regarding all of the factors, you could, of course, get a very nicely packaged and thorough view of all of this and much, much more by learning Rabbi Yaakov Shapiro’s sefer, The Empty Wagon.
He clarifies many misconceptions and debunks many myths, and sheds much (and much-needed) light on this very misunderstood sugya.
yichusdik:
It’s not a question of “if” the Zionists want to destroy Torah. That is the very essence of Zionism (to change the Jewish Torah nation into a god-less land-based Nationalist/Idolatrous Nation) and it is plain and obvious for all to see that this is exactly what the Zionists want and work to achieving as much as possible in this regard, R”L.ubiquitin:
So interesting how daas baal haBayis is exactly the opposite of daas Torah. The Chazon Ish didn’t think the Zionist state would last even 50 years. So Israel is already well beyond its expected life-span of shmad and, please G-d, we will all see this idol (among all others) disappear (with no harm cH”V to any Jews), as we all just davened yesterday and will again in one week.
an Israeli Yid:
Again, haTorah haZu lo tihei muchlefes.
vigam atem.
maintou:
Perhaps it is you who hasn’t learned the sugya.anIsraeliYid:
I already replied that I read both multiple times.Rabbi Hoffman did not provide a (sourced) counter-view from any gedolim/rabbanim. Essentially, Rabbi Hoffman simply expressed his dislike of Rabbi Shapiro’s sefer
edited
For example, the individual miracles that may have taken place in 1967 have no bearing on the overall thoroughly non-miraculous and fully expected Zionist victory in 1967, as you can see on the CIA’s web-site (check it out) as Rabbi Shapiro quotes.
Nor do the Zionists mention, for example, David Green (first Zionist Premier) purchasing (with donated Jewish money) Ninety Million Dollars (in 1940s dollars!) in weapons prior to 1948 in anticipation of the war he was going to launch to officially start the Zionist state. That’s besides the battles and terror the Zionists waged prior to ’48.
If you could find me a sourced equivalent to Rabbi Shapiro’s sefer then I would be happy to check it out.
But you and I both know that such a work doesn’t exist because your alleged “other shita” doesn’t exist, even if minor differences do exist.
As Rabbi Shapiro notes, the Satmar Rav forbade both joining the Zionists in their government and also voting in their elections; by contrast, Rav Reuven Grozovsky permitted, in Biayos haZman (under strict conditions, which, as it happens, are not being followed), frum Jews to become members of Israel’s parliament and for Israeli citizens, who are anyways under the Zionist jackboot, to vote in the Israeli elections.
So there is certainly some difference of opinion in “minor” matters like these (voting or not). But on the core issues, there is only one shita of all gedolim ever since that heretic started promoting Zionism: Zionism is treif, a shmad and a danger to Jews worldwide R”L L”A and we want nothing to do with Zionism.
Yeshivish rockstar:
Regarding “increase hatred of Jews in the world”, Rabbi YB Soloveichik, himself, is on record that Zionism/the State of Israel has enormously increased hatred of Jews world-wide, as Rabbi Shapiro quotes.Of course, those blinded by the idol of Zionism would find it very hard to see that, but if you would actually read Rabbi Shapiro’s sefer then you would realize that this is really quite obvious.
The Zionists arrogantly and very fraudulently proclaim themselves the representatives of Jews worldwide. Therefore, if a gentile believes that Zionist Big Lie (liHavdil, unfortunately, many Jews believe the immense propaganda the Zionists constantly crank out), then, when the Zionists do something the Gentile doesn’t like, then it would make sense that the gentile would therefore have a lower opinion of Jews.
But, again, it’s all a Big Lie. The Zionists represent nobody other than themselves (Zionists). They do not represent world Jewry, and never have. Even the (observant) Jews who live under the Zionist jack-boot are there only because they don’t want to leave the holy land, not because they want anything to do with the Zionists, who are unwanted invaders of the Holy Land.
Yeshivish rockstar:
It’s interesting that rather than praising Rabbi Shapiro’s sefer, which is trying to uproot the A”Z of Zionism from Jews the world over (who have been influenced by that idol, R”L L”A), you prefer a book that contains clear references to, and themes of, A”Z. Rabbeinu Yonah’s vort on “ViIsh kifi mahallalo” comes to mind; you know what someone is about based on whom/what they praise.Regarding the Kook-shmook story that Rabbi Shapiro quoted, he said he heard it from the original source. This story was also said over in Brisk by Rav Berel. It is well-known in those circles. So Rabbi Shapiro very obviously did not make up the story.
But you don’t need to believe or not believe stories. You can instead open up some sefarim. Both the Satmar Rav and Rav Elchonon HY”D blasted Rabbi Kook in incredibly strong terms. Each of the Satmar Rav and Rav Elchonon applied a different Rabbeinu Yonah, including the one I quoted above, with Rav Elchonon concluding that Rabbi Kook was, therefore, a “rasha gamur”, as Rabbi Shapiro quotes.
“Yeshivish Rockstar”:
In addition to your having violated the grave issur of bizui talmid chacham (on Rabbi Shapiro), you have also made the common Zionist error of conflating the Zionist idol/State and, liHavdil Eretz Yisrael.The Satmar Rav said decades ago that if the Zionists wanted out, they could tell the Gentile nations and the Gentile nations would figure out a way to take over politically while protecting our brethren there. He is, of course, right (not that he needs my haskama) and I addressed this above.
Regarding yishuv haAretz, there is a machlokes regarding whether or not that mitzva is applicable today. And other mitzvos may supersede that mitzva, even according to those that it is in force today.
Regardless, though, there is no need for the Zionists to be able to fulfill mitzvas yeshivas haAretz. If there were a normal Western-style Gentile government in that land, (which was what would have happened had the Zionists not invaded E”Y, never mind that Moshiach would have come, as both the Brisker and Satmar Rabbanim stated) and as there is in the USA, the UK, et al. then Jews would simply buy property in E”Y and live there under Gentile rule, just as millions of Jews do elsewhere in galus.
So there is no reason you can’t live in E”Y without the Zionists. To the contrary, it would be far better to live in E”Y without the Zionists than with the Zionists.
It’s also too bad that the Zionists have inflamed the hatred of the Arabs for a century (including well before 1948) while the Zionists falsely claimed to represent the Jews. Then, the Jews could have continued living in Arab countries, as some do even today. But the Zionists need(ed) Jewish blood to sacrifice on the altar of their idolatrous State, and, just as important to the Zionists, they also needed to rid those Jews of any attachment to Torah as well, so they used any means necessary to get Jews to come to their State (and still employ various propaganda and other tactics today to the same end) and also to shmad them, as is well known.
no mesorah:
Regarding the Avnei Nezer, you can check out this link, if the mods allow it:sorry
Regardless, it seems strange to ignore all the poskim going all the way back who do invoke the oaths as practical and in force, etc.
Not to mention, of course, the “Religious Zionists” themselves contend with the oaths rather than simply (and impossibly) declare them non-halachic as you still insist on trying.
Regarding your contention that nobody was talking about the oaths until the heretical founder of political Zionism:
1. Please see above. The Rambam, as mentioned, among many others did.
2. Until that heretic, there never was a hava amina to attempt to make a State due to that being, as everyone knew, a violation of the oaths.Regarding your opinion of what the Satmar Rav said, your prior posts make it seem likely that you have never even opened up his sefarim, so it seems silly to attempt to discuss this.
Regardless, though, the poskim who ruled that the oaths are binding are obviously well known enough that even the “Religious Zionists” take the time to (fail pitifully in their attempts to) contend with the oaths being very much halachic.
manitou:
What other pshat in the three oaths do you know of? From which Halachic decisor?The main issue is that you, and others, haven’t read Rabbi Shapiro’s sefer. Then you might know the “main issue” and the other issues.
Regarding giving up the State, that’s not what he advocates, though the Satmar Rav did say that if the Zionists went to the Nations saying they want out, then the Nations would find a way to figure that out while protecting our brethren there.
If you think about it, this makes much sense from a political perspective. It is quite obvious that the gentiles only tolerate what some even publicly call “that #$@ little country”, to quote that ambassador, simply because of the interests of their respective nations. So they would presumably be quite happy to take over whatever Zionist assets they could in the event of the Zionists choosing to leave the Holy Land.
Regarding your other baseless conclusion that Jews should “finally recognize that this is what Hashem wants”, the same could have been said about the Holocaust (gasp!), the meraglim and, most appropriately in comparison, the Egel haZahav.
Yet the entire shevet Leivi did not agree with that “logic”. Hashem, of course, did not either agree, for that matter. Similarly, no Jew, today, with any knowledge of the idolatry and heresy of Zionism, should G-d forbid believe in this idol of Zionism.
anonymous Jew, you mean to ask that you thought the oaths no longer apply due to the alleged reasons in your post.
The Satmar Rav handily dismissed those and many more.
For starters, the shevuos don’t work like that (you break it then I can break it). For example, the Rambam when writing to Jews in Yemen, was very clear that the gentiles then were going too far…
As well, even if it did work that way (which it does not), that would apply only to the oath against rebelling against the Nations, not the others like doing things allowed only by Moshiach, like having a State.
Regarding the non-rebellion because of the UN, there are numerous problems with this. For starters:
1. The Zionsts definitely did rebel. They literally terrorized the British in Palestine and, besides, the Arabs never agreed. Even the British ended up abstaining from that vote and simply left, due to Zionist terror.
2. The Balfour Declaration said only a home, not a sovereign independent state, and the British subsequently stated that the Zionists read way more into that statement than it stated.“And any Jewish ideology could be accused of the same sin.”
I have no idea how that reads as a true statement.
Actually, I do. A Jewish anything, including ideology, is one that is in full accordance with the Torah and mesorah. So if you define a Jewish ideology as a foreign ideology that conflicts in even a small way with the Torah and that happens to have Jewish proponents, etc. then your statement is true.
By contrast, my statement, in context, meant, as stated that it is simply impossible to accept anything that tampers with “Torah Hashem Temima”, all the more so if it jettisons the Torah entirely, in favor of anything else including Nationalism and/or pagan land worship. All flavors of Zionism lie somewhere on the spectrum mentioned here, as stated.
no mesorah:
The Satmar Rav decisively proved, from the many halachic authorities he quoted, going back centuries and more, that the oaths are absolutely binding. Period.The premise of your “question” to the “ardent anti-Zionists” is simply not there. The oaths were very much in halachic responsa going all the way back, as the Satmar Rav notes and as lhbc”c Rabbi Shapiro writes in his sefer. Open those up and see!
Even the “Religious Zionists” struggle to come up with how their idol/State could be exempt from the oaths. According to your “logic” they need not bother. Yet they do, because they know very well that the oaths have always been in force, as the Satmar Rav quoted numerous halachic authorities who openly hold this, as mentioned, and as even Chovivei Torah and, lihavdil, as even some “Religious Zionists” held openly.
Maybe it would be wise to first read the Satmar Rav’s sefarim on the topic and/or lhbc”c Rabbi Shapiro’s sefer. Then, you would be able to theorize based on the reality of the Torah and the mesorah going all the way back, not on your imagination of what the Torah and mesorah say or don’t say.
an Israeli Yid:
Rabbi Hoffman writes well, but the article he wrote about the sefer was not a review of the sefer. I read both. Multiple times.As to Rabbi Shapiro’s portrayal of Zionism, his portrayal is absolutely right: any attempt to rewrite Hashem and/or the Torah out of the definition of a Jew (or even remix that), is heresy and absolutely unacceptable to Hashem and the Torah and, therefore, to any Jew who cares about the same. And that remix or excision of Hashem and the Torah from Judaism is Zionism. Whatever your preferred flavor.
greatwizzo and anonymous Jew:
The Satmar Rav did not on his own claim that the oaths are Halacha; rather, he lists numerous halachic authorities going all the way back who hold that they are halacha.It is rather silly to make pronouncements, and further insist, on matters in which one is obviously ignorant.
Regarding those who think that Zionism is a matter of history and not relevant anymore:
1. they should probably (re-)read Rabbi Shapiro’s sefer. You can postulate about post-Zionism as much as you want, but he brings specific examples to show that the State of Israel is very much a Zionist state, and that the core issues have not changed, just as any gadol would tell you.
2. they should note that the WZO is, unfortunately, still very much “real” and that R”L tens of thousands of (frum) Jews (according to the WZO’s web site) were recently fooled into voting in the recent WZO elections, against the vehement opposition to doing so by Rav Aharon Feldman, Rav Moshe Sternbuch, as well all of Lakewood/BMG and many, many others.Had more people (or their Rabbanim) learned Rabbi Shapiro’s sefer prior to the WZO voting period, then perhaps they would have known better than to join this wicked group (WZO/Zionism), etc.
I presume the OP’s issues are primarily with Rabbi Shapiro’s quotes from Rabbi H. Schachter of YU and, perhaps also, lbc”c of Rabbi AY Kook.
In his sefer, Rabbi Shapiro accords due respect, including rabbinic honorific (e.g. Rabbi or Rav) to each. Moreover, he limits his criticism to their views/stated points, for which there seems to be tremendous toeles in covering, not ad hominem attacks.
It’s also worth noting (both in general and regarding the L”H question) that Rabbi Shapiro did not make up these criticisms. The Satmar Rav wrote extremely strongly against Rabbi Kook, both his material and on Rabbi Kook himself.
Rabbi Shapiro also quotes Rav Schwab Zatza”l’s beautiful follow-up piece, “He who Loves does not Hate” in his “Selected Speeches”, to Rabbi Schachter’s article in “Journal of Halacha” about the alleged mitzva to slaughter Jews for the idol of Nationalism. Rabbi Shapiro also notes that lbc”c Rav Schwab wrote that he did not intend to attack lbc”c Rabbi Schachter publicly; however, his article was about “those like him”.
Bottom line: Rabbi Shapiro preserved their respective honor but covered the material as needed.
anonymous Jew:
Last you checked, the three oaths are not halacha?Have you ever opened any of the numerous sefarim by halachic decisors quoted by the Satmar Rav (and, lhbc”c, in Rabbi Shapiro’s sefer as well)?
As well, the Rambam invoked them as halacha in his Iggeres Teiman.
In other words, have you ever actually checked that they are not brought down halacha (as mentioned, they are brought down as halacha by numerous halachic decisors), or are you just assuming that?
Presumably because, even according to the “Modern Orthodox” (as Rabbi H. Schachter stated) you need to live where you will be the best Jew that you can be (and for your family as well).
So if, by moving to Israel, you become CH”V a Zionist (to any extent) then it’s probably smarter to avoid becoming an oveid A”Z and not move there.
Then there are also the issues of parnassa and family, elderly relatives, etc.
Avi K:
Every gadol of any stature from Rav Chaim Brisker (grandfather of your “Rav”) and on held very clearly that Zionism is an idol.Unfortunately, the Zionist shmad machine is immense, and that “Institution on the Hudson”, as Rav Keller Zatza”L put it very, very mildly, promotes as a religious value this idolatry of Zionism, along with other Maskilic values. So it’s not the fault of anyone who studied at that institution if they have absolutely no concept of authentic Judaism.
The naivete and sheer silliness of “Religious Zionism” is astounding. That’s not motzi shem ra; it’s simply fact and, again, as Rav Schwab wrote, the MO are to be pitied, not CH”V hated, for their heretical views (including Zionism) due to their controversial role models, etc.
Rav Schwab (among many others), under whose movement (TIDE) the MO tried to take cover, stated clearly that there is absolutely no masoretic source anywhere that allows for Zionism, and there is similarly no such source for the heresy of “Religious Zionism”.
E”Y *was* our home until Hashem kicked us out which we all say in every mussaf. While individual Jews may live there, we cannot move there en masse, as a people, until Mashiach comes. That’s even in a peaceful and non-political manner.
Unfortunately, about a century ago, the Zionists invaded large parts of E”Y and declared a State there while falsely claiming to represent the Jewish “nation”.
Moving there will not change any “balance of power”, but it will almost certainly result in massive Zionist shmad of those Jews, to varying extents (even if they still keep Shabbos and put on Tefillin), depending on how much they know about the idol of Zionism and how strong they stand in resisting that idol.
As akuperma said, moving there is, at best, moving from the frying pan to the fire.
DY:
No, it’s a very apt comparison.
In Israel, SOME of those Jews in the IDF may have died protecting Jews. Similarly, in other countries’ armies, Jews have also died protecting Jews (and, of course, other citizens of their host country, just like in Israel).So where is the comparable inherent holiness in, say, Arlington National Cemetery?
jdb:
I have no “political” concerns. I was coming from the perspective of religion, from the Torah.There is nothing that makes Mount Herzl holy, or at least not any holier than any other Jewish cemetery which has a wide range of Jews buried there. Mount Herzl, however, does have the distinct disadvantage of being a Zionist symbol, in addition.
Again, the fact is that the Zionists are (at the very, very least) secular. Many, if not all, of the decisions they make in their army are very likely NOT what the Torah would want. Therefore, their soldiers’ activities following those decisions are, also, very likely NOT what the Torah would want. Therefore, there is nothing particularly holy about that cemetery containing the bodies of those soldiers any more so than any other cemetery with bodies of Jews.
Chaim Baruch:
Please see the earlier part of this post.
Aish.com has, shall we say, Zionist leanings?
Both stories seem absurd and, by implication as presented, are heretical.
If some Jews (let’s say they are secular and even heretics) go to war in, say, South Africa, and don’t return, are they considered holy as a result? Obviously not. Same thing in Israel.Yichusdik, Mount Herzl is a Zionist military cemetery. Zionists fight in the Zionist army to promote or defend Zionism, not necessarily to save Jewish lives. In fact, sometimes, they fight knowing that they will be sacrificing Jewish lives, CH”V, whether for political or other considerations (more land, etc.).
Zionism, as we know, is anti-Jewish to the core, attempting to remake the Torah-based Jewish people into a new gentile Nation-State-based Hebrew people whose ancestors happened to have been Jewish. The Zionist army is obviously NOT a place of “kedusha”, in the Torah’s (i.e. non-Zionist) usage of the word.
So your characterization of those on Mount Herzl as “kedoshim” and “gave their lives to save Jews” seems “off”.
As well, your claim that visiting Mount Herzl could lead to Ahavas Yisrael is also strange. Would visiting a cemetery in the United States do the same? If not, then why would visiting one in Israel be any different?
KJ is, of course correct.
Regarding your reference to the United States, the OP’s question would be like asking if the continent of North America can count on British support. But that doesn’t make any sense. Do you mean Canada? The US? Mexico? All of the above? Two of the above? Parts of all three countries?
So if you mean to ask if, say, the United States can count on British support, it would be silly to write that as regarding the continent of North America rather than the United States.
Similarly, but liHavdil, Eretz Yisrael is a geographic area, not a political entity.
The State of Israel happens to be located on a large portion of the landmass of Eretz Yisrael, just as the United States happens to be located on a large portion of, liHavdil, the landmass of North America. That is, as you wrote, the reality “on the ground”.
So the OP’s title should obviously, read, “Can the Sate of Israel rely on..”, and not “Can E”Y rely on…”
frumtd:
The Satmar Rav was one of many gedolim who called belief in Zionism what it very obviously is: heresy and idolatry. Unlike those other gedolim, he also wrote multiple sefarim explaining the whole topic (rather brilliantly and comprehensively, at that – not that my opinion is worth anything).Your academic question of how, in light of that, one could visit E”Y, is not really a question (because visiting and even living in E”Y is not at all innately Zionistic). But even if it were a question, that would not therefore lead to your “obvious conclusion”.
The much more “obvious conclusion” is that one who has likely never even opened a VaYoel Moshe and whose knowledge of Zionism is limited to popular propaganda, Zionist and otherwise, should probably not be be drawing any “obvious conclusion”.
frumtd:
The Zionists require Jews under their rule to be shmaded and subjected to the big three cardinal sins, in their indoctrination camp of Zionism known as the IDF, as a pre-condition to employment.One need only observe all the “Chareidi”-owned and run businesses everywhere else in the world, including Satmar, to realize that our religious brethren in Israel are being denied the ability to work unless they choose to subject themselves to Zionist shmad.
Regarding “reevaluating their positions” after the Holocaust, this is almost an heretical statement. The correct lesson to take from the Holocaust is how it fit in with the rules of schar viOnesh (and if we can’t figure that out, then we’ll have to wait for Eliyahu HaNavi to tell us BB”A), not how to turn Klal Yisrael into yet another Gentile nation, as was and is the goal of Zionism.
In terms of how to deal with the State once it, very unfortunately, came into being, there were gedolim who held that the tactics of dealing with the problem of Zionism had to change given this reality. But that Zionism was and is a tremendous problem for Jews has never changed.