HaKatan

Sam2, I was actually going to refrain from posting in this thread due to the OP’s seeming earnest and good intentions.

But since ZeesKite pointed out some of the errors made therein and you chose to dismiss those very valid points because you didn’t want anyone to miss out on this Zionist indoctrination day even though this would be corrupting, ch”V our holy Torah, I feel it’s important to clarify – if not for you, who chooses to believe otherwise despite the facts, then for others.

The main point is, to be blunt, that krum Torah, even if said earnestly, is still krum and it must be called out as such, if possible.

This is not “kanaus” and it’s certainly not a matter of “the major flaws the current government has”.

Let’s be very clear: even though MO mistakenly chooses to append this avodah zara of Zionism onto, lihavdil, our holy Torah, this does not at all negate the reality that the entire Zionist enterprise is treif and assur. Period. According to virtually every posek, it was, is and always will be. This is also pashut, to any objective observer. Facts on the ground may dictate a “There’s nothing you can do?” approach regarding the State, but this does not make it any less treif.

While the creation of this State might not have been madchik the geulah as some hold, it is certainly not the aschalta as MO and others erroneously hold, and it always has been, even more certainly, R”L a disaster for the Jewish people. Each day, R”L, shows yet another reason that this was a really bad idea, just as the gedolim all foretold. Amazingly, “religious Zionists” persist in their Zionism despite all this.

No, there is no joy from the bloody results of this needless and anti-Torah experiment.

Csar, I never heard that reason PBA mentioned, but I could see this as a possibility. The 6,000 is equivalent to the Sheshes Yimei Bireishis, the 6 days of creation.

There are opinions that hold that Moshiach must have arrived by Year 6,000 from Creation. So if we had a precise calendar of the years, it might prevent one from yearning for the redemption since it would be known by when the redemption must be.

I have my questions about this reason he mentioned, but I do not with to discuss them.

I believe it is definitely assur miDiOraysa, though how many issurim is a good question.

Regardless of how many issurim diOraysa AND diRabbanan, it is also extremely foolish behavior for both genders.

There are other options, like Cleveland, for out-of-town Yeshivos and seminaries, though Eretz Yisrael is, of course, not directly comparable to anywhere else, even if the overall educational gain is not necessarily better there than, lihavdil, in chutz LaAretz.

The neviim have some pretty scary things to say about what Eretz Yisrael will be like right before the geulah BB”A. Then again, there’s some scary stuff about “Melech Paras” and the rest of the world as well.

May Hashem watch over and protect all His children wherever they may be.

I’m not sure where “awarenessvaad” conjured up that statistic from, but it’s certainly false.

While there likely are marriages that could use some improvement or revitalization, it is not “most” and definitely not “all”.

In fact, most are good, if not optimum or very close to it, BE”H, and not any worse than that, CH”V.

(Keep in mind, as well, that the economy is very challenging and when couples don’t have time/can’t make the time to spend with one another, this will certainly have an impact on that marriage. A generation ago, when women were typically at home or working part-time, and men worked typical 9-5 jobs with no 24/6 Blackberries and other challenges, it was easier to maintain and therefore raise up the level of one’s marriage. Today, however, with more job pressures on both spouses, 24/6 connectivity to the office (for everyone, not just the CEO), it takes much more effort to ensure the necessary post-marriage “dates” are scheduled. Some couples today may need some guidance in implementing this.)

As far as “going their own ways”, a healthy marriage is one where both spouses still maintain their own unique identities. There is nothing wrong with each doing their own thing, provided it is not detrimental to the relationship or, even better, actually contributes to the diversity of the marriage. For example, if the woman decides she wants to learn the piano and therefore signs up to take piano lessons, this is not a reason to question her marriage and, in fact, this could actually strengthen both her own self and her marriage.

As for giving but not having ever received, I think this is far-fetched, especially in today’s sophisticated society. People typically know what they need, at least most of what they need.

A good marriage is priceless, and definitely attainable, BE”H. It takes work, but if you are both honest and fair, maintain good communication with each other, and are careful in your Bein Adam LaChaveiro with each other in addition to Bein Adam LaMakom (not any particular order), the marriage should, BE”H, be set to be truly wonderful for both the couple and Hashem.

“stuck” made the most important point so far, in my opinion.

A trusted Rav should be consulted. Pashut pshat, generally speaking, however, is that it’s better to go to a non-Jewish institution where your hashkafos will not be under attack, rather than go to a Jewish institution (or anywhere else, like a broadway show) which will negatively affect your ruchnius.

I am not saying that YU/Stern will certainly negatively affect you spiritually, as the Stern graduates that I know already came from MO backgrounds, but given the objective reports from graduates of that institution, it’s certainly worth looking into.

Regarding the “shidduch crisis”, I could name you both boys and girls who I would have thought that they’d have been married years ago because they have it *all*, and others who I thought would have a hard time and yet married excellent spouses in good time, B”H. It’s all biydei shamayim. Mixing at parties, lichaora kineged halacha, is not the solution, even if it does undoubtedly create some matches.

As for Lakewood, while there *may* be some who are fully supported and more, this definitely is not universal, and it is motzi shem ra on Lakewood to imply that every Lakewood guy is this way. I do not know the exact numbers, of course, but I do know it is far from universal.

(Finally, I find it amusing but sad that wearing pants and having boyfriends is considered more MO, and, for some, an expected outcome of going to Stern, as one poster wrote. These behaviors are simply assur and no amount of “modernity” can be mattir that nor the other issurim that are given a pass due to “modernity”.)

I do believe it’s high time that schools stopped this mistaken “oi” for “oh”; it’s inserting a “yud” into the word; how could it not change the meaning?

MiddlePath: I found blockhead’s post, which you agreed with, to be perturbing and I don’t know why you still back it despite some points like “quf”. To justify the saf as “t” because that’s how people say it, is, for kodseh purposes, prima facie absurd, not to mention in a dikduk discussion.

What he writes is anyways very puzzling: it is much more incorrect to use a “t” than using a samech for a saf. It may be more precisely pronounced as a “th” rather than a “s”, but an Ashkenzaic “s” is much closer to a “th” than a Sefardic “t” is.

While on the topic, the sefardi “oh” is somewhere between a kamatz and a cholam, but is not a true cholam. It is better than “oi”, though.

Regarding the chaf and Spanish “Guadalajara”, their “j” in that context is awfully close to our ches. So the ashkenaz “ches” is actually quite reasonable.

Again, the typical Ashkenazi havarah is off only in a matter of degrees, as noted. The sefardi havara is simply off, with saf and kamatz completely disregarded, pronounced identically to “taf” and “patach”, respectively (and even “oh” is not fully pronounced).

MiddlePath, I disagree that “they..are the ones doing it right”.

For divrei Kodesh purposes (speaking in Israel for secular purposes is a different matter):

Just because Ashkenaz doesn’t have the precision to distinguish a saf from a samech does not mean that they should revert to Academic/Modern/Zionist Hebrew (adapted from sefardi havarah specifically disregarding their Mesorah of Ashkenaz havarah) and use a tav. A Saf is still far better.

Similarly, the non-guttural ches is arguably better than a simple imitation of the letter “hay”, since Ashkenaz does not have a mesorah for the guttural ches.

On the flip side, the non-askenazic havarah does not distinguish between a patach and a kamatz. That can’t be authentic, either…(Nor do both Ashkenaz and Sefard differentiate between a tes and a tav. So if the similarity is an issue…)

Ironically, the Israeli children are taught and/or speak a real cholent of a havarah with mixed ois and ohs (worse than their American counterparts who are generally consistent one way or the other), and even take it a step further with things like dropping the “hey” altogether and pronouncing it like an aleph.

Uncorrupted Ashkenaz (ohs) and Teiman are the closest things to the genuine deal, with Teiman being closer.

I have NO IDEA if the rumors I’ve encountered are or are not true, but my understanding is that there are MANY more chumros, and **some of those are of a MUCH more life-changing nature**, than “walking a few steps ahead”.

I would advise DEFINITELY consulting a trusted family Rav, JUST IN CASE it is an issue for this particular potential couple.

May there be many beautiful simchas in Klal Yisrael.

Interesting question. You can add “Gam Zu LiTova” to your question. In other words, why even acknowledging “Gam zu LiTova” if it’s all for the good.

I wonder if the answer is that good and bad is, indeed, as we perceive it relating to our small world, but not necessarily from a long-term and certainly not from a global perspective.

For example, if someone leaves his phone at home and loses 30 minutes returning to get it, that is definitely “bad” since nobody likes to be hassled and lose time, etc.

But it could be that, as a result of this “bad” delay, something good would happen *later/ultimately*. Maybe not. Either way, we don’t usually know.

But at the time one is late/delayed, I think the most appropriate reaction is gam zu liTova, meaning it’s for the *ultimate* best (and be makir tov for that) even though it is still very annoying now.

Hakaras HaTov is always appropriate, even in this case, but it’s obviously different than if someone gives a well-received shiur, where there’s no doubt that’s a “good” thing, and one would be even more grateful to Hashem for that good.

Health, please take off the tin-foil cap. I have no agenda here other than defending Klal Yisrael from an inadvertent attack by someone who I’m sure meant well. Please see my post after yours for further clarification. And I’ve agreed with you many times that toeiva marriage should not be legalized, so you’re the one projecting (obviously false) things on to me. Please, stick to the facts.

Regarding the wording of the OP, the “in some ways” portion is irrelevant to the issues at hand. I still maintain the post was just as off and incorrect even with those words, though, as I said, I believe she meant well and those words do further clarify that she meant well.

I think I’ve made my point already, but I’ll do so again regarding the toeiva travesty: **We** are not representative of society’s moral deficiencies and society does not represent our status as the Am Segulah MiKal HaAmim. So just because certain states have passed this abominable legislation, this DOES NOT REFLECT ON US nor does it damn society as a whole either, despite these few terrible blots on the overall fabric of society.

As I mentioned earlier, even the secular news media picked up that Jews voted out a fellow Jew in favor of a non-Jew (a Catholic) because this Jewish politician had the nerve to not only vote for this toeiva but to defend it that he had to vote for it AS A JEW.

So **we** do NOT “cover up the evil”.

Besides, there are plenty of states still, B”H, that have not introduced such terrible legislation. Whereas by Noach, the Torah clearly tells us “Ki Mal’ah HaAretz Chamas…” It was universal across the land.

So as I said, there is no comparison between this generation and that of the Mabul, despite a minority of states considering/passing toeiva bills, R”L.

The copying music comparison to the GREAT AND MALICIOUS EVIL of Sedom is even more incorrect, as I mentioned above. Please see my previous post.

Health, please don’t label me anything, including a hypocrite, as I think you’re being a bit out of line (and wrong, both in the technical definition and in this particular case as well).

Yes, I was and still am very against any government legalizing this toeiva, and even the goyim know it is maaseh sedom. I have not changed that position, CH”V. But that does not make it correct to lump such governments in the same GENERAL and OVERALL category as Sedom. It is also a gross lack of Hakaras HaTov to do so.

Hashem runs the world, and He can be sovel this avla that THE UMOS HaOLAM committed, too, if He wishes. He can also put it into their hearts to realize how stupid and brainless this bill really is when children are considered, as I wrote above. That would solve that.

But we, Klal Yisrael, who dwell on this Earth **AND WHO EVEN VOTED OUT A JEWISH PROPONENT OF THIS TOEIVA (and favored instead his Catholic opponent who was against it)**, as I mentioned, can only do what we can and certainly cannot be blamed for this avla the Umos committed despite the OP’s erroneous suggestion otherwise.

The OP wrote 2 points which I thought were very off and incorrect. I didn’t “put words in your mouth”, but rather explained to you what I was defending. Again:

OP wrote: “we may be just as bad as the dor hamabul”. Again, we are absolutely not in the same league, sport, etc. as the evil barbarians of that wicked dor. We have unbelievable Torah, Avoda and Chesed, which are the three pillars that uphold this world, and it is this incredible Am HaNivchar, as it yearns for the geulah, that does so 24/7/365. We still desperately need the true geulah shileimah, may Hashem redeem us BB”A. But we are not at all what the OP wrote.

She also compared an unknown number of people who allegedly engage in “CD copying” to the wicked Sedom practice of a large group of people intentionally ganging up together and each taking less than a peruta’s worth of merchandise until the physical merchandise was all gone. Again, there is no comparison between CD copying and that evil, not in the act itself, nor the scale on which the respective acts were committed nor on the respective intents. Once again, to take the unknown number of these particular Jews and extrapolate that to comparing our entire People to Sedom is clearly very, very wrong.

Klal Yisrael has suffered so much already, R”L. If anyone feels the need to be mikatreig, cH”V, let them please ask their Rav for answers instead, rather than being mikatreig in a public forum when, at the very least, they could frame their concerns with words like “IT IS bad to do…” rather than “WE ARE bad”, CH”V.

I do not think we are anywhere close to the Dor HaMabul and Sedom, and I amazed that people can be motzi laaz on the entire uma haKedosha of Hashem like this.

Society has degenerated to the point of condoning and legalizing Mishklav Zachar, and this is a serious concern. But it does NOT reflect our values but rather that of a liberal nation that, for all its maalos and being a medina shel chessed to us and others, does not have the Torah as its life-source as we do, and is therefore prone to making grave errors (even lishitasam) such as legalizing mishkav zachar, Hashem Yiracheim.

Regarding gezel, there is a machlokes whether copying CDs/music is or is not gezel, in certain circumstances. Regardless of this machlokes, the chamas of the other doros mentioned was far worse. There, they, in groups, stole a physical object until there was no inventory left, and with that exact intent, and did so as a “naval birshus HaTorah”; meaning: since it was less than a shaveh pruta, that it was lichatchila muttar. Whereas today, someone who has a taava to copy music, AND knows it’s not proper (regardless of whether or not it’s gezeila as there are other issurim to potentially contend with) may not gain additional olam haba for doing so, but I wouldn’t dare compare that to sedom.

Klal Yisrael has much, indeed, to be proud of, B”H, as we wait the geulah sheleimah BB”A.

“Sam2”, you’re really serious that I claimed MO is wrong “only” because of intentional and flagrant violations of one of the 3 aveiros chamuros SheBiChamuros?

Come on. I’ve mentioned this many times before. Rav JBS himself wrote that the more one can distance himself from secular culture the better he is for it. “Modernizing” was, in his view, a horaas shaah that felt was necessary because he mistakenly believed that traditional orthodoxy would become a museum piece. Now, tell me that MO follows this shunning modern culture. They don’t.

For starters.

Zionism and the State have been unbelievably horrific disasters for our people. You can debate your Rambans and Rambams all you want, but, in addition to the clear multiple violations of the Torah that is Zionism, the facts on the ground are that Zionism and the State, as the holy Chafetz Chaim and many others said it would, has caused far more problems than the wicked Zionists thought they would solve.

Here’s a very quick and very much-abbreviated list. Before Zionism means before Zionism, not “Before 1948”.

Before Zionism, Teimanim had their mesorah and yahadus since bayis rishon and tens of thousands of sefardim were also still observant Jews, as would have been their descendants today and beyond.

Before Zionism, the Arabs did not virulently hate the Jews, and were generally cordial and even friendly. Even post-Zionism, some Arabs still recognize the fraud that is Zionism and correctly do not equate Zionism with, lihavdil, Judaism.

Before Zionism, Jews and Arabs lived peacefully in Eretz Yisrael (Just to head off the uninformed question, the Chevron Massacre was a direct result of *religious* Zionism – please excuse the paradox – according to Rabbi Baruch Kaplan who was there.)

Before Zionism, Jews were not seduced into becoming “post-Jewish” and culturally manipulated by (Zionist) Jews into giving up their faith in favor of Zionism.

Before Zionism, there was no need to send every young man and woman of 18 years old into the anti-Torah army that is the IDF nor was there the need for them to risk their life and limb by doing so.

May Hashem redeem us all, bringing the true Geulah, BB”A.

Off the top of my head:

Rav JBS, in his 13 addresses, said “the more one can distance one’s self from secular culture the better one is for doing so…” and that the reason for creating this new MO movement was that he (incorrectly) feared that traditional Orthodoxy would become a museum piece and couldn’t exist in the new America. B”H, this did not happen.

Therefore, it is quite clear that Rav JBS himself felt that MO was NOT lichatchila in any way.

So since Traditional Orthodoxy CAN and does, B”H, not only exist but even thrive, in this (not anymore so) new America, there is no valid reason to “modernize” Judaism when doing so is at best a bidieved according to Rav JBS, its founder.

Does that help?

The reference was to the movie, though.

I agree with the OP that these particular references should not have been used, if possible, particularly references to mushchasim and menuvalim.

Avi K: I was discussing those who are in school for a Master’s or Doctorate-level Rabbinical degree who hope to then use that to earn a living in a chosen profession, whether or not that job is in the religious world. I know plenty of people with semicha who went on to be successful business-people and career workers in the secular world.

My only point, which I still maintain, regardless of any objections posted thus far, is that if you are trying to earn a degree which you hope to earn an honest living from, I respect that whether it’s Torah or lihavdil a secular field.

I don’t believe people become a Rebbi with the goal of also receiving food stamps. If they can’t find a job that pays enough and they have to rely on programs like these to supplement their income to support their respective families, then that is unfortunate, even though it’s perfectly legal to do so, if qualified. But I do not at all believe it is lichatchila for them.

And just because a doctor will pay more taxes after he gets his degree does not give him any more of a right to rely on govt. programs than anyone else who needs them, regardless of future earning potential. The point of these programs is for the here and now, to allow one to live like a normal human being while in difficult straits, regardless of one’s chosen (future or current) profession.

I don’t know the numbers (in BMG or anywhere else), but it can’t be more than yechidim who can learn their whole lives. Someone has to pay the bills, and all the programs just can’t do that unless you pay 0 tuition and before your family grows beyond 1 or 2. So the goal must be to get a job at some point, whether that’s a Rebbi, Rabbi or something else entirely.

Whoa, what’s with all this ganging up against (the bearer of) an inconvenient truth (or truths)?

First, it is important to distinguish between what, on the one hand, is/was halachicly correct and, on the other, what can be done given the present reality.

Regarding the latter, there is no question that the State of Israel exists and that since they have (foolishly) assumed responsibility (sad as that has been) for so many of our brethren, they cannot simply pack their bags. As well, the State of Israel is the only country who cannot (and does not) claim “to the victor go the spoils”, and this is a black mark on the nations of the world. This is clear.

However, it is just as, if not even more, important to know the truth and what is right and what is wrong, EVEN IF PRESENT REALITY DICTATES A DIFFERENT APPROACH. Zionism was, is, and likely always will be, a major disaster for OUR people. This is indisputable, regardless of the ability to visit the kosel and whatever other chasdei Hashem we are blessed with that are “benefits” of having a State of Israel. The war miracles and other tired arguments are all irrelevant in asserting Zionism was a priori correct. It was not and only proves that more and more as time goes on.

The Zionists have inflamed the Arabs (and others in the world, EXACERBATING Esav Sonei LiYaakov) to hate us FAR, far more than they ever did. They were always Pereh Adam, and never loved us (though they did revere the Baba Sali and stood reverently for him when he passed in the streets). This doesn’t excuse their behavior at all, and the Arabs are still 100% at fault for every drop of blood they savagely spilled. But the Zionists are still far from blameless.

Trying to justify Zionism with “Esav Sonei LiYaakov” is absurd as breaking down a fence to fight a pit bull based on a rationale that the pit bull is violent anyways…so might as well seek to fight it?

Which is precisely why the smart thing to do was to do what we’ve always done in galus, and which has B”H, sustained us through today and will continue to do so, BE”H, until Beas Goel Tzedek BB”A, which is to lay low and NOT fight neither Eisav nor Yishmael, unless CH”V compelled to do so. The Zionists did not and do not care what the cost was as long as it furthered their agenda of gaining a State and keeping that State, and post-Jewish, CH”V, as well.

Most gedolim, including the Chofetz Chaim who died well before the State of Israel was established, knew and publicly made known that Zionism was and is a disaster.

Next, this is not a “Satmar shita”. It is reality, and it is also what most every gadol held prior to the State’s founding. Once the State was founded, some gedolim said to deal with the egel hazahav that has been hatched. But the position did not change, just the method of dealing with the reality at hand. Zionism was and is just as anti-halacha now as it was before the State’s founding.

It is painfully obvious that Jews would have been far better off without Zionism. That is, it is obvious if you are objective and read up on the history of the matter and open your eyes to the events of recent history.

I hope that clarifies matters, though it seems some have the wool of Zionist fallacy and fantasy pulled way too tightly over them.

BTGuy, I’ve never met any, personally, and their methods, as portrayed in the media, are obviously not halachicly appropriate (unless they consider it pikuach nefesh to do so?), and what you propose that there’s an ulterior agenda does seem possible.

But their point that Zionism has wrongly decided to append itself to Judaism and that the two are fundamentally not compatible with each other (but, whatever your thoughts are on the pros and cons of Zionism, Zionism is certainly not part of the Jewish faith, and (both the Jews and) the goyim should know that) is still valid even if their methods for conveying that aren’t.

Your post was a little cryptic, but it seems you are concerned why people don’t all have beards.

I was told that, early-to-mid last century in Europe, the gedolim were mesakein that guys should shave (obviously in a kosher way), perhaps for shidduch reasons.

My assumption is that the reasons for that takana are even stronger today, for most places/people.

In addition, our society today does not operate like that of yesteryear, and what may have worked then does not necessarily work now; provided there are no halachic objections (as in none at all), then Rabbanim can make adjustments to non-halachic areas, as per the societal needs (not its wants, but its needs) and shaving in a kosher manner does not appear to violate halacha.

The mishna berura actually brings certain people who should have beards. One can derive from here that there will be those who don’t have beards; he’s not implying, CH”V, that those who do not have beards are therefore ovrei aveirah.

Finally, typical klei kodesh do indeed have beards.

Avi: He said so himself. The Rasha Mufti told Rav Yosef Chaim that if the Jews simply continue to live here then there will be no problems. But if they try to rule over the Arabs then there will be war.

The Zionists had no problem with that, and in addition, again contrary to the gedolim’s correct advice, foolishly “declared war” on Hitler YM”Sh, too, which only enraged that rasha more and he at some point changed his plan from expulsion to lihashmid (vi)laHarog uLiAbeid, ch”V.

The Zionists do not care to admit they are responsible for all the bloodshed since 1948 and that they *intentionally* perpetrated massive spiritual destruction, and those who do admit these travesties are proud of both of those facts. Nor do Zionists manage to recall that almost every gadol said, very correctly, that the State will be a disaster (“they will create more problems than they think they are solving”, were the Chofetz Chaim’s words).

Rav Kook can’t blame the frum Jews of Europe for following halacha and ignoring Rav Kook’s daas yechidi and refusing to be “oleh bichoma” (regarding which Shlomo HaMelech wrote such dire consequences), especially when they were busy learning Torah instead, thus keeping the world going.

Regarding the reality as it is, this is an entirely different matter. As BTGuy wrote, no, the NK are obviously not correct in being mischaber laRasha and in endangering any Jews. But whatever may need to be done today, bishas haDchak, as a matter of practical need, has ZERO bearing on whether or not the Zionists were correct in creating a State (they were clearly, in every way, NOT correct).

Essentially, the Zionists started a world-wide “forest-fire”, and now, other than the Zionists, everyone (including NK, misguided as they may be) wants to put out that fire. So just because we don’t want their fire to burn any more, does not mean we agree with them for foolishly and brazenly starting this conflagration when everyone else knew all along what an out of control disaster Zionism was and is.

ROB, you’re comparing the Zionist reshaim with Ezra and Nechemiah, a Navi Hashem? You’re beyond reason and living in a fantasy world.

The solid opposition to Zionism WAS Halacha then and IS Halacha now, Zionist fantasies not withstanding.

BE”H, when Moshiach does come (may it be BB”A), that egel haZahav and malchus haRisha will be no more; it will definitely NOT be forever.

Avi K:

Evidently, 99% of the gedolim disagree with your presumption of halacha, and it is also clearly not safer for Jews in Eretz Yisrael than anywhere else. Start with the mandatory draft, the never knowing a day of peace in its mistaken existence, et al.

Rather, the Zionists convinced everyone to have this perverted anti-Torah belief that it’s worth ch”V dying for the land. As the secular Zionists who’ve abandoned the Torah don’t have much spirituality if any to live for, it’s understandable in a perverse way for them to do so. But it’s not Torah. It’s Anti-Torah. The Torah says VaChai BaHem, just for starters.

HaLeivi:

We don’t know who people would have lived under in Eretz Yisrael, but if not for the wicked Zionists, it would have been no worse than living in England, France or even Morocco and Yemen at the same time period *minus* Zionist provocations and the reactions that caused.

Zionism completely changed the way Arabs and the world view Jews, Zionism is responsible for massive amounts, R”L, of innocent Jewish dam haShafuch and they continue to be like the chazir that puts on a show but is really just lipstick on the same.

“HaKatan, if not for the Zionists the Arabs would have slaughtered whatever few Tora learners there were in Eretz Yisrael (as they did in Tarpat). Rav Soloveichik said that if not for the State almost all the surviviors of the Holocaust would have assimilated out of fear and depression. “

Avi, this is clearly not true. Rav Yosef Chaim Sonnenfeld, not a Zionist, had a cordial relationship with, lihavdil, the Mufti YM”Sh.

According to Rabbi Kaplan who was there, the Chevron massacre was a result of “Shema Yisrael HaKosel shelanu HaKosel Echad” and other Zionist provocations. When you provoke animals, they get violent. These animals happen to be human (“Pereh Adam”, in that order), so there is no excuse for these savage murderers. But the Zionists knew better but didn’t care.

With all due respect to Rav Soloveichik, even if that is true, which I am not at all convinced it is, that doesn’t justify the numerous aveiros and evil deeds committed and allowed in order to make that egel haZahav rise in Eretz Yisrael.

Bottom line is that Zionism is assur (always was, as noted above, according to almost everyone) and in hindsight Zionism is a terrible disaster for our people, so it’s not only assur but also foolish in and of itself.

akuperma, excellent post!

It is so painfully obvious that Zionism has been a colossal tragedy for our people. Without Zionism there also would be just as much, if not much more, Torah learned in Eretz Yisrael than there is now. (Look at all the “Israelis” who were (in multiple ways) and still are shmad-ed by these reshaim or tinokos shenishbu. Many of these innocent Jews used to be, and still would be, frum jews, if not for the Zionists.)

Look up the facts on WW II. The lie that had Israel been around that the Holocaust would not have happened or would not have been as bad, is a lie worthy of, ironically, Goebbels YM”Sh, himself.