HaKatan

chaimboruch, that’s a ridiculous comparison.

Day 31 is not a major life-affecting halacha, very unlike the nidon didan. So, yes, Day 31 is not necessary to be up-front about when any chassan/kallah would learn about such shitos in their classes. But none of the (non-Gur, certainly) girls will learn about those of the nidon didan.

Mo is not relevant here.

Since this has devolved into a debate about Chassidic secular education, can anyone name any Chassidic schools that are proud of their secular studies department? I’d be interested to know.

I’m not sure why everyone is blasting “more”, even if his comment may have been uncalled for. He’s certainly correct about not sweeping things under a rug, and I cannot personally recall meeting any chassidic-educated person who, straight out of school, could speak English as properly as his/her non-Chassidic counterparts. I’m sure there could be, and there are certainly many successful Chassidic-educated business-people.

The point is, though, is that $3,800 getting you a real education, so it is a basis for comparison for this discussion, or is it essentially babysitting as he alleged, in which case it is not comparable to the other schools which have serious secular studies departments?

I agree that this issue should not be ignored. I know which “frum” guy in Albany you’re referring to, and I agree that the likely answer is viHaKesef Yaaneh Es HaKol and that this is wrong. I also agree that small fires can easily lead to big ones.

But I am hopeful that BE”H these fires will be put out, not that they will be stoked and intentionally spread. We will see, BE”H, as this unfolds, and a new President can certainly turn things around, if he wishes to do so.

Regardless, **we** are certainly incomparable to sedom, and even the secular culture around us is, at this point, very, very much incomparable to sedom.

Regarding abortion and toeiva and lots more, I agree that secular society is getting worse. But that is them, not us. And there was no Klal Yisrael, the Am Kadosh, in the Dor HaMabul. Further, lihavdil, the Catholics are still very much against abortion and even forced the President to backtrack on a contraception bill.

But most importantly, **we** still know it’s wrong, so I still think your OP should have been worded very differently. And as this disaster of “gay marriage”, CH”V, unfolds over the next two decades or so, even many goyim will realize what a travesty this is, particularly because the children in these homes will have been deprived a healthy normal childhood.

Regarding copying music, I don’t know where you get this idea that “people copy cd’s so much” and that therefore “the Jewish music industry is struggling mightily and may fold altogether.”

Of the millions of Jews who consume this music, how many do you know? And do you have access to Aderet’s books that you are so sure that CD copying has that effect, that they can’t profit from a CD?

(My understanding is that it so happens that the CDs are really a marketing expense to get the singer to be “known” so they can be invited to perform at concerts, where the real money in that industry is. That doesn’t mean people should copy, but I strongly disagree that many people do so.)

You’re really accusing a large portion of Klal Yisrael of going against halacha, and you really have absolutely no idea if you are right because you don’t know that many people. So I think that assertion, in particular, is uncalled for and should be retracted.

I assume you meant well in trying to remind people that copying CDs takes away money from the producers, et al. But baselessly accusing “so many people” is not the right way to do that.

I’m not sure what happened to my other response, so I’ll be brief here: my “defense” of today’s generation has nothing to do with a shot-in-the-dark limud zichus nor can it be compared to Sedom.

Please read the relevant peirushim and midrashim. Sedom was evil, as in E.V.I.L. While it is wrong to condone and legalize this toeiva, this is a far, far different culture than sedom. This country has been very kind to its citizens (and gives citizenship rights to anyone born on its soil). Whereas Sedom savagely and torturously murdered any guests who happened to pass through.

Again, please don’t be so foolish as to blame secular culture’s morass on the very people, Hashem’s am HaNivchar, who do what they can to rise above it, BE”H. And, similarly, it is a chutzpah and a tremendous lack of hakaras HaTov and/or simple surface-thinking for one to write off the USA as another Sedom because of a particular failing when there is so much more good that it does and that which sedom never dreamed of doing.

I just saw your previous post, too. I do not CH”V hate MO **people**, and I further believe that they are tinokos shenishbu. But that does not justify kashering the ideology.

Incidentally, figuratively bowing down to the egel hazahav of Zionism makes it two out of the big three, Arayos and A”Z.

I’m also amused that you can’t fathom why “even” being mattir Broadway shows, which I mentioned before as being absurd to even try to get a heter for, is enough for any Torah Jew to know that MO is not in keeping with the Torah.

yichusdik, you ignored 50% of what I wrote and “missed the boat” regarding the rest. I did not claim the Jews lived as Americans when they lived in Arab countries. But they were far better off physically than their brethren in lands run by the religion of brotherly love.

And they were not subject to anything like that which the “Israel Tinea Capitis Compensation Law” covers them for. The Zionists admit to this, though they compound that particular rishus, kidarkam bakodesh, by doing all they can to NOT compensate. But that’s really par for the course for the evil Zionists.

Again, regarding Chevron, Rabbi Kaplan stated that it happened because of “religious zionists”, NOT that the Yeshiva boys were Zionists.

And on and on.

I think Kollel_Wife makes a good point, that there are (older) people who don’t cover their hair, etc. due to the upheaval from the transition from Europe to America.

But, Sam2, Rav JBS founded the MO of today and MO today is not a result of that upheaval.

It is, as mentioned above, the distortion of the ideals of Rav JBS, some of which, in retrospect and as held by other gedolim who were his peers, were mistaken to begin with, that are responsible for the various MO avlas that have occurred and continue to occur.

MO is eventually going to head either in, CH”V, a “YCT –> Conservative —> Lost to Yahadus” direction, or, hopefully and BE”H, more likely, in a Traditional Orthodox direction. “Chareidi”, based on Chassidic mesorah and practices, is not part of the equation nor is it a greater or more authentic level of observance than Traditional Orthodoxy.

ItcheSrulik, I think you must be joking. Nobody wants disunity; but by choosing to dilute and distort, CH”V, the Torah’s laws, MO de facto makes itself into its own sect. May we all be zoche to the geula sheleimah, when we will all be part of a true Aguda Echad serving Hashem the way He wants us to, BB”A.

musser zoger, it’s not CH”V a kitrug but rather a shevach and limud zechus on those who recognize that Hashem has not yet redeemed us from Galus. And there are prominent Rabbanim et al who, themselves, have secular names.

The difference, lihavdil, between us and other ethnicities is that only WE are subject to the halcha yadua sheEisav Sonei Es Yaakov. It has nothing to do with shame, CH”V, especially in a multi-cultural society as OP pointed out.

So if using a name not common to secular culture will make any/some (normal and decent) non-Jews uncomfortable, then it makes perfect sense to give children American legal names to be used in the workplace, et al. (No one is suggesting it is typically dangerous, CH”V, to use Jewish names as legal names, but that doesn’t lessen the concerns with doing so. YH”R, Hashem Yishmireinu, viyigaleinu BB”A)

Gavra:

I don’t think one can predict the future. It is just as (im)possible to support a family and pay tuitions on a Rabbe’s salary with a spouse’s income as it is if the husband were working in a typical white-collar office job. The additional income taxes, alone, are almost punitive.

Regardless, Parnassa, like everything else, is from Hashem, not from the profession you choose. I know many klei kodesh professionals who are managing just fine and, on the other hand, non-klei kodesh professionals including lawyers, who, unfortunately, are not doing all that well, financially.

Did all the kollel-bashers stop to consider that, lihavdil, a doctor also has to go through years of training before getting his professional degree?

Would you also say that a doctor has no right to fall back on govt. programs while he is in school? I would not. Therefore, I don’t hold Kollel people to a lower standard than doctors. So if they can’t make ends meet while learning towards their Rabbinical degree(s), then let them legally and ethically apply for whatever programs the government offers until they do get that degree and find a position in the Rabbinate.

realist: There are the proverbial silver linings in the cloud. That doesn’t mean we prefer a rainstorm to sunshine.

But the answer to your rhetorical questions are, unfortunately, yes, there would have likely been more Torah in E”Y had Zionism never existed.

Granted, there are many yeshivos in Eretz Yisrael, and those are theoretically protected by the State of Israel. But witness the tens of thousands of Jews including their descendants who the Zionists intentionally stripped of their Judaism, and, through the IDF and other cultural organs continue to CH”V de-Judaize them today. Many had their mesorah intact from Bayis Rishon! Are they not part of the cheshbon?

And there are many Torah communities outside Eretz Yisrael, Lakewood for example, that are malei Torah viLomideha. They were built with Jewish blood, sweat and tears (and money). There were many areas in Eretz Yisrael that were purchased and built up by Jews well before Zionism entered the world stage. There is every reason to believe such enterprises would have multiplied had Zionism not reared its traitorous and disastrous head.

Even after Zionism became a force on the world’s political scene, Jerusalem would have become a UN-run “International city”, at worst, as envisioned in the mid 1900s. The Kosel would thus have been just as accessible, if not more so, had Zionism never come about.

Chasdei Hashem Ki Lo Samnu, there are still benefits that the State of Israel does provide, including access to the Kosel, despite the many travesties wrought by Zionism. And if you live in Eretz HaKodesh under their protection then I don’t dispute the Hakaras haTov that would then come up. But none of that justifies Zionism nor is any of these benefits possible solely because of Zionism. They hijacked the course of our history, to our tremendous detriment, and this point is largely unknown.

Besides, NK doesn’t care that the government is not run kiHalacha. Because there is no way to run, kiHalacha, a government in Eretz Yisrael until Moshiach comes BB”A. It’s like attempting to run a beis haBaal according to halacha. It’s paradoxical and absurd.

Josh, I believe your post’s assertions have no basis in reality, for a number of reasons, including that many people do not subscribe to that fine publication. So, it seems, perhaps you meant:

“The Left Wing is busy creating a new Maseches Kulos shelo birshus HaTorah vi-she-afilu lo birshus Rav JBS.

Rule 1: All views to the Left of traditional Orthodoxy’s base line are not Assur, but all views to the Right are.”

Sam2 and Avi K.

No, it is the Zionists who are “shocking and repulsive”, though I did not blame them for the Holocaust, ch”V.

Incidentally, they did a pretty good job of “explaining” themselves, though.

The web is full of the expose of this dirty and shameful (if you are a Zionist) history, but I know links aren’t allowed here.

So please Google “Zionists declared war on Hitler”, without the quotes. Take your pick of the results, though some sites are more suitable than others. That will explain the reference above.

Read R’ Michoel Ber Weismandel’s Min Hameitzar.

Google the following quote from Ben-Gurion:

“If I knew that it would be possible to save all the children in Germany by bringing them over to England and only half of them by transporting them to Eretz Israel, then I opt for the second alternative.”

And this one from Chaim Weizmann:

[for Palestine]. The old ones will pass. They will bear their fate or they will not. They are dust, economic and moral dust in a cruel world … Only the branch of the young shall survive. They have to accept it.”

And from Yitzhak Gruenbaum, the chairperson of the committee set up by the Zionists, nominally to investigate the condition of European Jews:

“When they come to us with two plans – the rescue of the masses of Jews in Europe or the redemption of the land – I vote, without a second thought, for the redemption of the land. The more said about the slaughter of our people, the greater the minimization of our efforts to strengthen and promote the Hebraisation of the land. If there would be a possibility today of buying packages of food with the money of the Karen Hayesod [United Jewish Appeal] to send it through Lisbon, would we do such a thing? No. And once again no!”

That’s for starters.

Sam2:

Your “argument” is not valid for a number of reasons. One is as Doswin pointed out. As well, every single drop of blood spilled in Israel over the last 60 years is the Zionists’ responsibility. Every single drop. As is the loss of their souls, except in this regard the Zionists actively and intentionally stripped them of their religion, not merely allowed it to happen under their watch.

Holocaust conjectures are even more foolish. In all the years of our galus, there never was a holocast. To presume that the same thing would have happened again after the unimaginable blood bath that was the holocaust, had there been no State, is beyond the realm of possibility.

On the other hand, there could not have been the wars of 1948, 1956, 1967, 1973, et al. had Jews NOT been concentrated in Eretz Yisrael. That is for sure.

As is clear to anyone who has not had the wool of Zionism pulled over their eyes, Zionism has been a tremendous disaster for our people.

HaLeiVi:

“Had a group of Frum, sincere people been the ones to try and legally gain the land, I’m pretty sure that all Rabbonim would have enthusiastically backed them.”

Instead of assuming, ask a Rav if that’s true (it’s not). Frum and sincere or otherwise (and the Zionists were certainly “otherwise”), there is no heter to take the land and it’s also outright stupid to do so, as history has shown. Just for starters, who needs every 18 year old kid to risk their lives in an army?

There were Arab countries where Jews were able to keep their mesorah intact since the FIRST Beis Hamikdash. Naturally, the wicked Zionists (in multiple ways) forced them (in multiple ways) to throw it all away upon their arrival to Eretz HaKodesh.

Witness the “Arab Spring” now. Who knows what the Arab world would look like if they never had an Israel upon which to blame their problems on? But that is conjecture. The point is that many Jews lived for centuries under Arab rule, and while it was not always pleasant and at times the savages would go on a blood-thirsty rampage, it was far better than the “religion of love”.

Feif Un:

>> “I wrote to you that you are mistaken, and that the majority of MO schools do NOT have mixed classes except at the very young age levels.”

Mixed classes are not the only problems in MO; mixed schools, even with separate classes are still a problem, and that is certainly not the only “liberty” MO takes. So that problem and others very much do exist.

>> “You also wrote how society has changed, so we must be more stringent, and have more takanos. How can you then claim that you practice “authentic Judaism” if you admit that it changes with the times? If anything, the Judaism YOU practice has changed with society, while MO has remained constant.”

The Torah doesn’t CH”V change with the times; that’s MO’s department; they bend the Torah to fit their pursuit of godless modernity. And MO has remained “constant” only in its mistaken “compromise” approach to our faith.

Rather, Takanos are made to address the shortcomings of the times. This, unlike MO, is authentic Judaism (Pirkei Avos: Asu Siyag LaTorah), part of our living Torah.

I’m sorry you can’t at least distinguish between authentic traditional Judaism and the unfortunate mistake (in hindsight, certainly, and bidieved even according to Rav JBS at the time) that is MO.

I don’t expect any response as, unfortunately, there really is none to give when your own Rav JBS agrees you are wrong.

Once again: you will get different answers to the same question depending on if you ask an MO Rav or a traditional orthodox Rav. That was and is the essential point, not to “attack anything”.

May we all be zoche to the geulah sheleimah BB”A, when this will all be crystal clear to everyone.

Sam2: I’m okay with no further response from you, though I certainly did provide examples. The “student dynamics of YU”, whatever possible explanation there could theoretically be for those dynamics, have nothing to do with co-ed MO schools and other gender mixing, and the resultant aveiros (chamuros) that result from that laxity yet the laxity is intentionally not fixed thus allowing the aveiros (Chamuros) to continue.

Quote from your previous post:

“Yes, “MO” mixes the genders more. Not because they say the modern ideal of mixing genders trumps Halacha (as you claim), but because they believe that whatever gender-mixing they participate in is Muttar.”

Again, there are numerous issurim that come up when you mix the genders. In other words, if you care at all about the Torah, you do NOT want to needlessly mix the genders. Yet, as you admit, MO (proudly) does mix the genders and you claim they believe that “they are halachic decisions”.

But they can’t be “halachic decisions” if they go against halacha (or many halachos). So either they’re using a different Shulchan Aruch than traditional Orthodox does, or else it must be that they let modernity trump the Torah. The name is MO. The halacha is not like their alleged piskei halacha. What else could it be that causes them to claim something is “muttar” when it clearly is not? MO.

Your last quote:

“No one, and I mean no one, who honestly believes they are Orthodox (“Modern” or otherwise) thinks that any considerations not provided for in Halachah ever trumps Halachah.”

While I believe this to be theoretically true, people do transgress. And people then rationalize those transgressions with anything from plausible to outright foolish reasons. And the ones who transgress biShitah (gender mixing, social kissing, women wearing pants, et al.) still consider themselves Orthodox. How? The rationale is that MO says so.

As for the other examples, like the story, et. al., that I brought: again, these are indicative of a lack of sensitivity and Torah hashkafos and a corresponding immersion in secular culture, which your own Rav JBS decried and which MO still holds by despite Rav JBS’s position.

I’ve been waiting to hear your answer to why MO ignores the Rav (and traditional orthodox poskim), but none has been forthcoming. It seems obvious that the answer is that simply the lack of proper Torah education is the cause.

Neither you nor Feif Un have offered any answers to anything I’ve posed. All you’ve done is ignore the evidence and attempt to halachicly justify that (co-ed) which is not halachicly justifiable and then attack chareidim for “chumras” when those “chumras” have far greater basis in halacha than any kula you’ve come up with.

Once again, whether you claim it’s halachicly valid or it’s like my position that MO shitos are clearly halchicly invalid, you’ve still proven my point, with the above admission, that when it comes to these matters, a traditional orthodox Jew should not ask an MO Rav as he will get an MO answer which, at least in these matters, is not in accordance with traditional orthodoxy. Like I said a number of posts back, if you ask a Satmar Chassid if you can daven mincha well past shkiah, he will say that you can; a traditional Rav will not. That’s just the facts. So, too, here. As per your own admission, MO is more tolerant of mixing of the genders than is traditional orthodoxy.

So you will get different answers to the same question depending on if you ask an MO Rav or a traditional orthodox Rav. That was and is the essential point.

Sam2:

You know very well what MO does that traditional Orthodox does not. And I did discuss (more than) enough to prove the point.

Also, take a look at the post by “QuestionForYou” one or two before yours, but I would substitute “Chareidi” for traditional orthodox.

Since you insist, however, I have indeed already provided specifics. For example, MO proudly mixes the genders (in and out of school) much more than traditional Orthodox (i.e. the Torah) allows, and much more gilui arayos of various levels results from that. A few posts back, I mentioned the “male contraceptive” story in an MO school as a small example of this.

Again, I don’t wish to list all their “liberties” and then get into a silly argument about how this particular violation of halacha is not widespread and that particular trampling of halacha is also not universal, because it’s not relevant to my original point, which still applies: an MO Rav will issue an MO psak. (I don’t know if he takes any particular liberties, but it’s very possible he does.) So for a traditional Orthodox Jew, they’re best off asking elsewhere if they want an uncompromising answer.

And no, it is certainly not “a few inconsequential Halachic decisions”, unless you consider absolute fidelity to the Torah to be inconsequential, CH”V, which is what MO seems to hold in the cases where they allow “modernity”, de facto if not de jure, to trump the Torah, CH”V.

Sam2: You were the one who called them(/yourself) apikorsim, not I. First, I was speaking of rabbanim/poskim, not the hamon am. Second, please “don’t put words in my mouth” as I did not say nor do I believe any such thing.

To be clear, any posek/Rav who identifies as MO, assuming he is not schizophrenic, will likely issue psakim in accordance with MO shitos, as this is his ideology. Otherwise, he would seem hypocritical. Are you suggesting either of the above?

This is, again, pashut.

As to the issue at hand, I guess you’ve conceded the point(s) since your only response was a wild and unfounded accusation. Also good to know.

Gavra:

I agree that just because the goyim breathe and do lots of other things, that doesn’t forbid us from doing the same, B”H. But if something will cause someone to think of forbidden things, as I wrote in my hypothetical perfume example and as is the reality with pole dancing for many people, then we agree that it is forbidden, as you wrote.

So I feel that Zumba is problematic for a number of reasons including this one. If you don’t agree that Zumba dances will cause a person to think inappropriate thoughts, then I respectfully disagree, though I do respect your opinion. But there are other problems with Zumba as noted above, principally the music and the public sensuality, and probably, for those reasons, uvichokoseihem lo seleichu as well.

Sam2:

I would quote to you “kol haposel, bimumo posel”, but we’ll leave that issue aside, I guess.

Please explain to me how someone who identifies with an ideology, such as MO, will not issue piskei halacha in accordance with that ideology? That would be hypocritical, would it not? Are you accusing this Rav of being hypocritical?

Of course, if a Rav identifies as traditional Orthodox (of whatever stripe/faction) then if he issues a psak I disagree with, I still respect his psak as being 100% Torah-based. But not if he identifies with another ideology that de facto goes against the Torah as that ideology naturally will influence his psak. This is a dvar pashut and simple reality.

CherryBim:

And I guess you’ve now raised it too far. The Mishna Berura in chelek Beis certainly does not agree with your contention that “hakol mutar”, though I certainly agree with no “tznius police” other than one’s self. For example, “Lo Yishte Adam BiKos Zeh viYitein Ainav BiKos Acheir”.

I’m sure many people would be interested in knowing who argues with the MB and claims “hakol mutar”, though. Please let everyone know.

Sam2:

Although you probably meant it differently that I understand it, I agree with your statement that “just because someone may or may not be “MO” (whatever that even means to you anyway), their potentially vast Halachic knowledge is inherently irrelevant.”

This is true. The greatest talmid chacham in the world is capable of doing aveiros and also of being biased. And if such a person is mattir one or more aveiros due to his ideological bias, then it’s quite understandable that he would also be mattir a different issur due to that same ideological bias. Again, I wrote this and the above with all due respect to him, as indicated. I was sincere in that respect and equally sincere in its irrelevance to the topic at hand.

I felt the need to *respectfully* but unequivocally explain away this chilul Hashem that a Torah authority allegedly permitted this nivalah. In truth, by chilul Hashem, “Ain cholkim kavod laRav”, but I tried to be cholek kavod regardless and explain that it’s likely an ideological bias that could cause one to issue such a psak, yet with all due respect to his potentially vast Torah knowledge.

So I’m sorry you feel offended. But what is truly “disgusting” and “divisive” is when some who claim to be orthodox choose to trample on our Torah in the misguided pursuit of base and decrepit secular culture. Especially since your own Rav JBS said so himself that one should *avoid* secular culture if at all possible. Yet you proudly proclaim your religious pursuit of secular culture even when such pursuit is clearly kineged halacha.

Gavra:

What about the rest of it which is not Kadosh? Sensual music could, theoretically, be used to serve Hashem, as you posit. But sensual music created in tumaah without that requisite kedusha cannot. It reminds me of “Lama li rov zivcheichem amar Hashem”.

Regarding your second point referencing my point about pole dancing and your bringing up perfume, perhaps this will help explain it.

Say there were a perfume that was heavily and solely marketed to zonas. And for years, ever since its introduction, everyone who smells that perfume knows that the wearer is a zona. Not a businesswoman nor anything other than a zona.

Say some guy decides he likes the scent and buys it for his wife. Lets grant that he doesn’t want his wife to be a zona, but is buying it lisheim mitzva. But here is the problem. The brain knows this is a zona’s perfume. So there’s no way that improper thoughts will not go through his (and her) mind if she wears that perfume, even if the overwhelmingly vast majority of those thoughts will be pure.

The only exception to this is if he (and she), personally, *never* knew that this perfume is a zona’s perfume. Then, it would serve its purpose appropriately as it is, after all, only perfume.

The same goes for pole dancing.

The problem with Zumba, however, unlike the above hypothetical perfume and pole dancing, is that no such prior knowledge is needed for the music to negatively affect you. Music, as I wrote earlier, is the language of the soul. Again, you don’t need to have prior exposure to anything to be negatively affected by impure music. Nothing can save you from being negatively affected by impure music, other than not listening to it.

And the Zumba dances, too, if they were choreographed to be sensual, then that’s certainly inappropriate in public, as written above (even *if* the ultimate purpose is to enhance one’s individual relationship between man and wife).

Feif Un:

“(provided it isn’t against halachah)”

But Zumba is against halacha; that’s the point.

“Variety is the spice of life”, goes the expression. That does not mattir wife-swapping CH”V. (It’s like wanting to be cultural and modern so – completely contrary to Rav JB’s wishes, too – we trample on the Torah and attend Broadway shows to do so.)

But that’s not the point; Zumba is anyways not uniquely “marriage-enhancing” any more than any other aveira and/or a muttar form of exercise might be.

Music is an expression of the soul. There is no way listening to that kind of music (Latin) is good for your neshama. And I’d be embarrassed if anyone I knew went to Zumba.

Feif Un:

That might be true, except that it’s *inappropriately* sensual. Sensuality cannot contradict the Bas Melech essence. I don’t want to bring other hypothetical examples to illustrate the point, but HaMeivin Yavin.

Besides, even if Zumba were as you propose, it would be highly inappropriate to publicly engage in physical sensual marriage-enhancing activities. Marriage is private, and public Zumba, even in your perception, is therefore a gross violation of tznius to turn most anything to do with marriage into a group activity (certain types of lectures not withstanding). Again, I don’t want to bring other hypothetical examples, but HaMeivin Yavin.

Shvartza Wolf:

Why is it so hard to believe he “called the shots” at the various Touro campuses? By the way, schools don’t get bought and sold overnight so I imagine he could easily have had some input into that new school as well. Would the YU board and President Joel not “call the shots” at YU satellites as well, like the Torah MiTzion Kollels?

I believe Rav Daniel Lander is the new Chancellor, so that should resolve that question.

I’m sure you know that Lishon HaRa is an aveirah even if true, so your post about Motzi Shem Ra was irrelevant as it’s still assur by your own implication.

Sam2, in case the prior responses have not sufficed to make the point, I humbly offer the following notes on your response.

>> My remarks should begin with these characters at the beginning of each paragraph.

HaKatan: I don’t even know where to begin with this.

>> I was sincerely hoping that you did; I’m sorry to hear that.

>> For instance, I was hoping you might start by addressing the terrible hashkafa these incidents portray and especially the point I made at the end about the objection being the attitude more so than the practice.

You are taking an article by one Overes Aveirah as an indictment on a whole community. I would hope that someone who knows what Jews have gone through throughout our history would be able to see past that.

>> I will begin by reiterating that I know many YU people who are fine Binei Torah, and I am happy to believe the kaf zechus that much of that population is likely tinokos shenishbu. So none of this was or is an attempt to besmirch any person(s), CH”V, but rather to address the ideology and its practice.

>> First, as I indicated, any serious talmid from YU that I have asked about these scandals, simply brushes it off as not nogeia to them, but not that it’s *wholly* non-indicative of the school’s hashkafa. Anecdotal comments bear this out, though that is not proof, of course.

>> As well, from reading the various intellectual pseudo- (and actual) kefirah plus azus neged HaTorah combo pieces that spring forth from various student publications, it clearly is a serious indictment of the community even if not its individuals. I’m sorry that’s too hard for you, but a pattern tends to indicate the underlying reality. When you have one “winner” after another, it *almost* gets to be predictable and, as stated, indicative of the underlying ideology.

Rav Schachter talks about when the cardinals visit and why and why YU lets them in the Beis Midrash. Before they come, someone always announces in the Beis Medrash that they should be ignored and that learning should continue as normal.

>> Seriously? And therefore? The Commentator still glowed how the Cardinals had such nachas from seeing how the talmdim “sharpen their minds” in the Talmud as the Cardinals engaged them in conversation. So maybe Rav Schachter gave some students permission to be Mevatel Torah and those did not have to follow the directive you mentioned?

>> Besides, it’s still a Bizayon HaTorah (and bittul Torah), and my understanding is that the R”Y there were not exactly BiSimcha about it. A Beis Midrash is a Makom Torah, even more so when seder is in session, and not an object of interest for curious observers, not to mention the Avodah Zarah issues. I suppose it made for some good halacha limaaseh shu”t. Hashem Yiracheim.

>> Honestly, you really expect anyone to believe that when a handful of regally attired Catholic Cardinals walk into the Beis Midrash that it will have absolutely no impact on anyone’s learning even if the Commentator hadn’t reported as it did and even with Rav Schachter’s alleged directive?

>> This is another example of modernity *trumping* CH”V the Torah. Let’s be egalitarian, regardless of what happens to seder; we’ll just have Rav Schachter issue edicts that we know won’t solve the issue. I’m sure Rav Schachter did his best so I mean no disrespect towards him, CH”V, but that doesn’t make the issue disappear.

>> As I said in my previous post, Conservative, Reform and Reconstructionists don’t claim fidelity to OUR Torah; MO does, so MO has the uniquely impossible job of reconciling our holy and pure Torah with, lihavdil, the incredible cultural morass around us. This would be extremely comical if it weren’t just as extremely sad. (At least by Rav JB’s times there might have been a hava aminah so it’s understandable why he said what he did, given the prevailing winds at that time. But clearly traditional orthodoxy is quite obviously not a “museum piece”, B”H, despite his prediction to the contrary.)

I cannot answer why Broadway shows are Muttar. I know people have been given Heterim (I also know of several people who bring iPods to listen on during Kol Isha parts), but I do not know why they would be Muttar.

>> People are given legitimate heterim for all sorts of things (within limits), but that doesn’t therefore make it generally acceptable halachic practice for anyone and everyone. I happen not to believe anyone ever received a heter to attend a typical Broadway show. But, regardless, the arguments they put forth for Broadway shows have nothing to do with heterim other than inventing ones that never did, and never will, exist.

>> Please forgive my cynicism here, but should those people be applauded for bringing an iPod for the Kol Isha parts? First of all, the whole proposition of doing so is farcical at best and I’d be embarrassed to try to rationalize such behavior to anyone, even to a school-child.

>> But even suggesting such a “solution” only underscores the point I made in my last post of secular culture de facto trumping halacha. It’s assur, but since secular culture is more important than, er, also important in addition to, Torah, let’s find some laughable pseudo-solution and fool ourselves that we’re following halacha. And we wonder why non-MO disagrees.

>> Second, what about the seviva and the visuals in the theater, even with an iPod to somehow protect against Kol Isha? I guess that’s muttar lichol HaDeios? Or do they not watch the shows and also come in a protective bubble-suit? This is absurd.

>> I assume further that “Uvikuseihem lo seileichu” is also, CH”V, moot in favor of elevating secular culture?

You seem to have a very strong complaint against a group of people and are not giving a real support for your indictment of a large group of Frum Jews, unless you think that Broadway shows are enough to Passul an entire group.

>> As I stated, the whole *attitude* of Modernity trampling the Torah (as most recently indicated in the Beacon incident where they are not even apologetic for publishing such nivalah and azus) is deplorable, even if the overwhelmingly vast majority of individuals mean well, and I would be open to that possibility.

>> By way of example, and not to open another can of worms, just because some people really believe Rabbi Schneerson Z”L is, CH”V, their “Borei” doesn’t make the opinion in any way tolerable. It’s still absolutely unacceptable. So is any intentional dilution of our Torah, large or “small” by anyone.

>> So you have a group that openly ignores their own Rav JBS (and does the same with Rav SR Hirsch – who really has nothing to do with MO – by ignoring his Austritt provision and misunderstanding his whole philosophy to begin with – on top of that convenient omission of Austritt). This group has no shame in publicly glorifying their toeivos and their worst aveiros (the editors had no problem publishing it in the name of intellectual opinion and other non-svaras, so it wasn’t just the baalas aveirah’s clear mistake in writing the piece, particularly the way it was written).

>> Incidentally, going to Broadway shows (in addition to the clubs and other mekomos hatinuf they unabashedly and proudly speak of patronizing and even review in their publications) would likely make them Prutzim BaArayos, which means, for example, that it would be assur for a woman to be miyacheid with (not only 1 man) but even 2+ men who attend these shows, as the heter of 2+ only applies to kisheirim and not to prutzim.

>> This *attitude* is obviously a big problem, though of course each individual stands in his own chezkas kashrus. Regardless, the point is that you’re playing with dinei nifashos, as in ruchnius, by ignoring all this.