HaKatan

On Rosh HaShana, which is coming up, we don’t cry, even though it is a day of judgement, because we are happy and confident that BE”H we will all merit a wonderful, sweet new year.

I would think the nidon diDan would be similar. While it’s a serious occasion (and a personal Yom Kippur), and only a navi knows the future, one would hope that some sort of smile would still be in order, BE”H. Look at the many brachos marriage brings: a clean slate, completing himself with his zivug, etc.

“more”:

I wasn’t exactly clear on what point you were making. However:

By comparing smartphones to Chava, why bother with Muktzeh? After all, it’s only a siyag.

While Chava may have erred in that particular instance, Pirkei Avos does advise “VaAsu Siyag LaTorah”.

Chazal also say to be miod miod zahir in inyanim of arayos, whereas that lashon was not used by the Eitz HaDaas.

Again, I see their logic even if it’s not a universal standard.

I agree it would have been appropriate, from a secular perspective.

But it might have made the siyum seem like, lihavdil, just another secular event that’s held there. So I understand the decision to not sing it at the siyum.

But Hakaras HaTov and gratitude is definitely in order, and I hope this was otherwise expressed either at that venue or before/after.

Shraga, your post doesn’t seem to square with this:

“Regardless, it’s much more prudent to be the best eved Hashem in whatever place makes that possible, than to run off to anywhere else.

Incidentally, Chazal already told us that if one wants to be saved from chevlei Mashiach that they should be oseik in Torah and Gm”Ch. It does not say to move to E”Y.”

Again, we also *know* that one’s purpose on this Earth is, essentially, to the best Eved Hashem that this individual can be.

So, mima nafshach. If, after all considerations are taken, you can be a better eved Hashem in E”Y, then no Mashiach sevaras are necessary to indicate moving there, assuming security, parnassa, etc, are all worked out. On the other hand, if moving to E”Y would ch”V cause a yerida in your Avodas Hashem, then you are presumably forbidden to move there, no matter what pashut pshat may be in Neviim or elsewhere (in part because ain safeik motzi medei vadai, and this is at least a sifeik sifeika, if not an even greater-level safeik).

As well, why would Chazal, when addressing this topic, not have simply stated that living in E”Y would save one from Chevlei Mashiach rather than saying what they did? Evidently, according to known Chazal, it is not necessary to move to E”Y to escape chevlei Mashiach.

In addition, there was a major asifa held recently in NY, and the more recent Siyum HaShas. If they felt this was the case, would not one of the gedolim and rabbanim, including some from E”Y, had even hinted that everyone should return to E”Y ASAP? That’s not as important as the Internet? I don’t recall reading there was any mention of this.

Finally, to add another point, Ain LaDayan Ela Ma SheEinav Rowos and Ain HKB”H ba BiTruniya al Biriyosav. Of all places where Jews have resided since the founding of the State of Israel, the most dangerous place on Earth, in so many ways, has been that same State of Israel. So it’s irresponsible to ignore that clear reality.

That’s all theoretically speaking, of course. For real practical guidance, asking your trusted LOR is far more prudent.

May Hashem redeem us all, BB”A.

Mod 42, your comparison is not valid. I know of a sefardi rav whose Shabbos afternoon drashos were well-attended by ashkenazim in the town. That might be a valid Beis-Shammai/Beis-Hillel comparison. B”H, there is plenty of achdus in Klal Yisrael.

Again, whatever group it is that did not go (“Satmar” for the sake of this discussion), could not go because Rabbi Lau clearly represents Zionism (regardless of his reason for coming), and Zionism is Treif.

Even though his Torah is not halachicly ch”V treif as a result, is it so difficult to comprehend that, due to Rabbi Lau’s presence, that “Satmar”‘s attendance would have implied an acceptance of Zionism and that is a non-starter? (That’s not “politics”, BTW; it’s, lihavdil, Torah.)

Choppy made the point well, too.

Speaking of the Siyum HaShas, there is certainly discussion there about Moshiach’s coming.

There are certainly those who hold that the world will continue more or less as is, except that “Vihaya Hashem LiMelech Al Kal HaAretz BaYom Hahu Yihye Hashem Echad uShmo Echad”, that even the gentiles will be 100% sure that Hashem is the Creator.

But regarding what I perceive to be the main point of your thread, I was hoping to hear some of the numerous kiddush Hashem stories that must have occurred to so many.

From the coverage I saw thus far, it seemed clear that the secular world simply cannot relate to what a simcha this was for so many dedicated people, men, women and children, each for their own unique and important role in this wonderful individual and global simcha in finishing Shas and all the hard work, sacrifice, etc. that this entails.

Tisha BiAv is approaching.

As usual, Zionists don’t hesitate to besmirch gedolim who so rightly predicted the disaster that Zionism would become, and they twist the Holocaust to further their painfully wrong and disastrous agenda.

To quote ROB:

“clearly, the gedolim who directly dissuaded people in Europe to flee were wrong, and the gedolim who continue to fight the medina will end up on the wrong side of history. (they already are)…”

Rabbi Shafier of TheShmuz.com has a shmuz about the Holocaust. The entire series of events was one fluke after another, and it likely would have never happened had not everything worked out as it did.

To be clear, in all likelihood, until the very last moment, the HOLOCAUST was NOT predictable. Even today, it still boggles the mind how such a massive atrocity could have occurred.

Further, if you read the history of what actually happened during WW II, you would discover many interesting things.

Just for **starters**:

1. Hitler YM”Sh originally wanted to only expel the Jews (some say until the Zionists angered him, AGAINST the wishes of the gedolim, which is when he switched to genocide).

2. It was the Zionists and their reform allies who did all in their power to sabotage the holy work of Rabbi Weissmandl and others because the Zionists insisted that emigration be to Palestine only. Et al. This is recorded history.

So when all the facts are out, it is very clear that the gedolim were quite right in advising people to stay in Europe as that was the best choice, given a normal progression of reality, at that time.

Regarding the rest of ROB’s Zionist fallacies and wishful thinking:

Zionists have brought and continue to ch”v bring massive destruction and disaster to our holy people, and the gedolim were and are absolutely right to have fought Zionism and to continue to do so. This is painfully obvious to any objective observer and doesn’t require the knowledge of history that the Holocaust does.

The world, including the Jewish people, would most likely (as in overwhelmingly so) have been far, far better off had Zionism never entered the world stage.

There’s no point in putting together the two points and reminding Zionists of those who hold that Hashem allowed the Holocaust to happen due to Zionism, etc. Nor about the various quotes from Zionists during WW II that make them sound like Nazis. Etc.

Even without all that, Zionism has been really, really, bad news for the Jewish people.

And if even a tzaddik can do an aveira CH”V, as ROB (mis)quoted, then al achas kama viKamma that the Zionists did and continue to do many, many aveiros.

May Hashem redeem us all with the true geulah BB”A.

YehudahTzvi, I’m not convinced that making them cry will make them leave Jews alone, especially if they are not malicious. Again, ask your LOR.

It is not obvious, clear, nor objective.

A gemara, which is a snippet of recorded notes, must be taken in context and with the proper understanding, and is not intended to be read with an existing agenda in mind, but rather learned properly so as to understand what the holy sages meant in those notes.

Twisting a gemara, that could vaguely resemble something they believe in, is not impressive in the slightest because, here, too, the meaning is anyways different and clearly not that way, as I wrote in my post.

There are plenty of other gemaras, too, that, amusingly, people get all worked up over when they read the simple English translation, only to find out how foolish they are when they understand what the gemara actually means (if they care to find out).

Again, you can make a similar mistake from a cursory and non-intellectual reading of the Akeidah. But human sacrifice is obviously never condoned, unlike what one could decide to take from the akeidah.

But, again, I would leave it to talmidei chachamim.

Regarding Kabbalah:

Whether or not it is a deviation from the mesorah and, therefore, wrong, is irrelevant. Lihavdil, Christianity is a contradiction to our ikrei emunah.

yitayningwut, no, the concept is not there in the gemara Sukkah either. There is no source for a person’s anything atoning for all mankind.

(First of all, it would be ridiculous to have the many halachos of korbanos, teshuva, kapparah, etc. if there were no need for any of that. So the gemara obviously cannot mean what you imply.)

I wish to leave this to the talmidei chachamim to address.

However, from a very quick glance at the Maharsha, whatever the gemara does mean, that gemara has nothing at all to do with the Christian belief you are implying it parallels.

The Maharsha mentions, for example, that during the entire time Rav Elazar had his yissurim CH”V, that nobody died before his time. It does not say they lived free of sin nor that they bore no other punishments CH”V. And that particular immunity ended when his yissurim did.

And nowhere does it say he meant there is no more sichar viOnesh, etc. ch”V.

(While you’re at it, you can also say that since Hashem commanded Avraham Avinu to bring Yitzchak at the Akeidah that this CH”V condones human sacrifice. Of course, the truth is the oppposite that this was a mind-blowing test that they both passed with flying colors to our tremendous merit forever.)

As I said earlier, you can twist anything to mean anything, but not if you’re objective, honest and educated. Bringing this gemara as a source for their belief is none of the above.

Regarding your latter point:

“But I do not think that there is any point in going on the offensive and trying to “refute” their religion. And, as an aside, I do not think historically we ever have done so. “

I agree, to a point, though I believe this is also an important point to discuss with one’s LOR.

Personally, I believe that every Jew should be quite clear that our faith is very obviously the one and only Das Emes, and that no others can, neither objectively nor even subjectively, derive support from our holy Torah.

I’m not 100% comfortable with your use of “defensively”, as it implies that there is what to defend when there really is nothing to defend since their “arguments” are based on mistakes and/or worse.

Again, dealing with these matters is a sewer; ask an LOR what, if anything, to do.

On a related note, Hashem obviously placed these other faiths in the world for a reason. So, for example, if non-Jews live more moral lives as a result of their faith, then that’s great for everyone. We do not look to proselytize. In fact, we seek to NOT proselytize.

But, lihavdil, we have the forever-enduring and absolutely permanent das emes, and we should be crystal-clear that this is the case.

As for the MO haters: plenty of Kollel people have advanced degrees from secular schools, and many also go out into the secular workforce after their years in Kollel, too. The ones who become klei kodesh also BE”H make a parnassa. And plenty of people with advanced degrees and/or years of experience are unfortunately still jobless.

Are you, perhaps, jealous that, in addition to having the above, they know how to learn Torah very well and know a good amount of Torah, and that they can also conduct their families BiDerech HaTorah?

Since when has anyone on YWN insulted gedolim?

Respectfully pointing out what appears to be an (again, inevitable) error is not insulting to anyone.

For example, Yehuda ben Yaakov Avinu publicly admitted his error when Tamar respectfully asked whose chosam, pesil, et al. are these, when she, of course, knew that they were Yehuda’s.

A) yekke2, that argument is also faulty because, in part, we didn’t yet have the Torah in Mitzrayim.

(As well, the Nazis YM”Sh also understood Yiddish, so there’s nothing all that muvdal about Yiddish, certainly not all that different than Yeshivish English today.)

Now that, for well over 3,000 years now, the Torah has bound us as one nation, there is no need to resort to speaking our own language as being a Torah Jew does far more for everyone than using a common language.

This is pashut.

For example, if you need a minyan in Paris while waiting for a flight out, no matter what language you speak, the word “Shacharis” and a gesture to your Talis/Tefillin should be enough to convey you’re looking for a minyan and any other Jew will happily join you no matter what language he speaks because we all have the same mitzvos. Again, we did not have that in Mitzrayim.

No Yiddish is needed.

B) ** The following is a quote from another site, if the mods wish to allow it:

If the Mods do not, the following point still stands. **

It’s very insulting and is a lack of derech eretz to many Jews that, in the United States whose national language is American English, one has to publicly Lifnei Am ViEidah “justify” speaking in English, “CH”V”, essentially apologizing for not addressing the gathering in Yiddish; this is a tremendous turn-off and slap in the face to those who do not speak Yiddish, and accomplishes exactly the opposite of what is intended: it alienates those Jews who do not speak Yiddish and erroneously makes some Jews feel superior to those other Jews who do not speak it.

This is not, CH”V, an accusation that all who speak yiddish feel they are superior, but it has certainly happened, and it is a terrible avlah born, most likely, of ignorance as to what being a Torah Jew is really all about.

To be perfectly clear, there is nothing wrong with speaking English, and to apologize for doing so is, again, wrong, despite the good intention in doing so.

Yiddish is useful for only 2 things: historical purposes and for effective communication with the older generation. Everyone should speak English (and/or Yeshivish English), which is an international language, in addition to the native language of the country they live in. This will truly unify all of, rather than alienate, CH”V, any part of, Klal Yisrael.

AinOhdMilvado, you seem to be considering this in an extremely simplistic, and therefore, very wrong, manner. Of course, this is most likely due to the aforementioned Zionist Kool-Aid you say you love rather than an intellectual reason.

The terrible merida of Zionism would have only been made MORE tragic, had Hashem allowed MORE Jews ch”V R”L to have lost their lives due to Zionist aggression and those wars then being lost on top of everything.

In other words, the likely reason the Zionists did not lose those wars and the likely reason that this Avoda Zara of Zionism is still in existence, is that the Zionists have (wrongly, of course) made themselves responsible for the security of mass numbers of Jews.

So it seems plain that Hashem granted them victories for the express purpose of preserving Jewish lives. Had they lost those wars, it would have been even more disastrous than Zionism presently is. But had Zionism not started, not one Jewish live would have been lost in any of their follies. This is absolute.

Certainly, the gedolim were and are against this egel haZahav, and no miracles change that. In fact, the Torah dedicates a few pesukim to this exact phenomenon: if a Navi arises and performs **miracles** but uses those as a vehicle to say that you should worship other gods, this is Hashem testing you and you should NOT follow this navi. All the Zionist victories are no better. Again, miracles do not determine right and wrong.

The State is, unfortunately, a reality. And tactical considerations do not necessarily dictate the same response as what would be ideal were those considerations not there. But Zionism was and is a terrible disaster for our people.

May Hashem redeem us all with the true geulah, BB”A.

Shevet Ephraim also thought the time was ripe to leave Mitzrayim (and they weren’t off by very many years), and that didn’t go very well, unfortunately. The disaster of Zionism has been many, many times worse.

The gedolim said it’s treif, we all know it’s treif, and it would have been wrong to be “oleh biChoma” even more than was done.

Rather than going against our chachamim (“Al Pi HaTorah asher Yorucha”) and against pashut pshat chaza”l, had Zionism NOT started, however, it’s certainly possible Moshiach would have been here by now.

far east:

“hate it because its run by non-frum jews”

People don’t hate it, and not because it is run by non-frum Jews. There is no reason to hate anything because of the level of observance of its owners.

But the entire Zionist enterprise is a blatant affront to, and terrible rebellion against, Hashem and His holy Torah. That’s the major problem and a cause for serious consternation. The kol isha and other IDF issues and myriad other problems with the State, serious as they are, are only secondary to this.

“Hashem works in mysterious ways, but it seems clear, through the many war miracles, that the state exists for a reason.”

This is too simplistic a view. All of these miracles have had the clear effect of saving Jewish lives. That these miracles may have also benefited the State of Israel is irrelevant.

As well, the only reason anything exists is that Hashem allows it to begin and continue to do so. But man has free will. So not everything that exists is His preference. To be very clear, Hashem did NOT and still does NOT want a State of Israel. That it continues to exist means simply that Hashem ALLOWS it to exist, not that he WANTS it. Hashem allowed many things that He clearly did not WANT (like the churban of both Batei Mikdash and other things we mention on Tisha BiAv).

Speaking of Tisha BiAv, that is the REAL day for mourning the loss of the 6+ million kedoshim of the holocaust, not on some artificially invented Zionist day. By NOT doing so on 9 Av and INSTEAD doing so on this invented day, Zionists deny that the source of all the tragedies, CH”V that befell our people throughout the ages, is rooted in 9 Av and Hashem having expelled us from E”Y. This is not convenient for the Zionism, of course, since they are post-Jewish Israelis who have “returned” to the land, unlike those “galus” Jews. Of course, the Israeli is the greatest “galus Jew” with his insatiable thirst for “normalcy” and recognition from the nations of the world who really laugh at him.

Sam2, I was actually going to refrain from posting in this thread due to the OP’s seeming earnest and good intentions.

But since ZeesKite pointed out some of the errors made therein and you chose to dismiss those very valid points because you didn’t want anyone to miss out on this Zionist indoctrination day even though this would be corrupting, ch”V our holy Torah, I feel it’s important to clarify – if not for you, who chooses to believe otherwise despite the facts, then for others.

The main point is, to be blunt, that krum Torah, even if said earnestly, is still krum and it must be called out as such, if possible.

This is not “kanaus” and it’s certainly not a matter of “the major flaws the current government has”.

Let’s be very clear: even though MO mistakenly chooses to append this avodah zara of Zionism onto, lihavdil, our holy Torah, this does not at all negate the reality that the entire Zionist enterprise is treif and assur. Period. According to virtually every posek, it was, is and always will be. This is also pashut, to any objective observer. Facts on the ground may dictate a “There’s nothing you can do?” approach regarding the State, but this does not make it any less treif.

While the creation of this State might not have been madchik the geulah as some hold, it is certainly not the aschalta as MO and others erroneously hold, and it always has been, even more certainly, R”L a disaster for the Jewish people. Each day, R”L, shows yet another reason that this was a really bad idea, just as the gedolim all foretold. Amazingly, “religious Zionists” persist in their Zionism despite all this.

No, there is no joy from the bloody results of this needless and anti-Torah experiment.

Csar, I never heard that reason PBA mentioned, but I could see this as a possibility. The 6,000 is equivalent to the Sheshes Yimei Bireishis, the 6 days of creation.

There are opinions that hold that Moshiach must have arrived by Year 6,000 from Creation. So if we had a precise calendar of the years, it might prevent one from yearning for the redemption since it would be known by when the redemption must be.

I have my questions about this reason he mentioned, but I do not with to discuss them.

I believe it is definitely assur miDiOraysa, though how many issurim is a good question.

Regardless of how many issurim diOraysa AND diRabbanan, it is also extremely foolish behavior for both genders.

There are other options, like Cleveland, for out-of-town Yeshivos and seminaries, though Eretz Yisrael is, of course, not directly comparable to anywhere else, even if the overall educational gain is not necessarily better there than, lihavdil, in chutz LaAretz.

The neviim have some pretty scary things to say about what Eretz Yisrael will be like right before the geulah BB”A. Then again, there’s some scary stuff about “Melech Paras” and the rest of the world as well.

May Hashem watch over and protect all His children wherever they may be.

I’m not sure where “awarenessvaad” conjured up that statistic from, but it’s certainly false.

While there likely are marriages that could use some improvement or revitalization, it is not “most” and definitely not “all”.

In fact, most are good, if not optimum or very close to it, BE”H, and not any worse than that, CH”V.

(Keep in mind, as well, that the economy is very challenging and when couples don’t have time/can’t make the time to spend with one another, this will certainly have an impact on that marriage. A generation ago, when women were typically at home or working part-time, and men worked typical 9-5 jobs with no 24/6 Blackberries and other challenges, it was easier to maintain and therefore raise up the level of one’s marriage. Today, however, with more job pressures on both spouses, 24/6 connectivity to the office (for everyone, not just the CEO), it takes much more effort to ensure the necessary post-marriage “dates” are scheduled. Some couples today may need some guidance in implementing this.)

As far as “going their own ways”, a healthy marriage is one where both spouses still maintain their own unique identities. There is nothing wrong with each doing their own thing, provided it is not detrimental to the relationship or, even better, actually contributes to the diversity of the marriage. For example, if the woman decides she wants to learn the piano and therefore signs up to take piano lessons, this is not a reason to question her marriage and, in fact, this could actually strengthen both her own self and her marriage.

As for giving but not having ever received, I think this is far-fetched, especially in today’s sophisticated society. People typically know what they need, at least most of what they need.

A good marriage is priceless, and definitely attainable, BE”H. It takes work, but if you are both honest and fair, maintain good communication with each other, and are careful in your Bein Adam LaChaveiro with each other in addition to Bein Adam LaMakom (not any particular order), the marriage should, BE”H, be set to be truly wonderful for both the couple and Hashem.

“stuck” made the most important point so far, in my opinion.

A trusted Rav should be consulted. Pashut pshat, generally speaking, however, is that it’s better to go to a non-Jewish institution where your hashkafos will not be under attack, rather than go to a Jewish institution (or anywhere else, like a broadway show) which will negatively affect your ruchnius.

I am not saying that YU/Stern will certainly negatively affect you spiritually, as the Stern graduates that I know already came from MO backgrounds, but given the objective reports from graduates of that institution, it’s certainly worth looking into.

Regarding the “shidduch crisis”, I could name you both boys and girls who I would have thought that they’d have been married years ago because they have it *all*, and others who I thought would have a hard time and yet married excellent spouses in good time, B”H. It’s all biydei shamayim. Mixing at parties, lichaora kineged halacha, is not the solution, even if it does undoubtedly create some matches.

As for Lakewood, while there *may* be some who are fully supported and more, this definitely is not universal, and it is motzi shem ra on Lakewood to imply that every Lakewood guy is this way. I do not know the exact numbers, of course, but I do know it is far from universal.

(Finally, I find it amusing but sad that wearing pants and having boyfriends is considered more MO, and, for some, an expected outcome of going to Stern, as one poster wrote. These behaviors are simply assur and no amount of “modernity” can be mattir that nor the other issurim that are given a pass due to “modernity”.)

I do believe it’s high time that schools stopped this mistaken “oi” for “oh”; it’s inserting a “yud” into the word; how could it not change the meaning?

MiddlePath: I found blockhead’s post, which you agreed with, to be perturbing and I don’t know why you still back it despite some points like “quf”. To justify the saf as “t” because that’s how people say it, is, for kodseh purposes, prima facie absurd, not to mention in a dikduk discussion.

What he writes is anyways very puzzling: it is much more incorrect to use a “t” than using a samech for a saf. It may be more precisely pronounced as a “th” rather than a “s”, but an Ashkenzaic “s” is much closer to a “th” than a Sefardic “t” is.

While on the topic, the sefardi “oh” is somewhere between a kamatz and a cholam, but is not a true cholam. It is better than “oi”, though.

Regarding the chaf and Spanish “Guadalajara”, their “j” in that context is awfully close to our ches. So the ashkenaz “ches” is actually quite reasonable.

Again, the typical Ashkenazi havarah is off only in a matter of degrees, as noted. The sefardi havara is simply off, with saf and kamatz completely disregarded, pronounced identically to “taf” and “patach”, respectively (and even “oh” is not fully pronounced).

MiddlePath, I disagree that “they..are the ones doing it right”.

For divrei Kodesh purposes (speaking in Israel for secular purposes is a different matter):

Just because Ashkenaz doesn’t have the precision to distinguish a saf from a samech does not mean that they should revert to Academic/Modern/Zionist Hebrew (adapted from sefardi havarah specifically disregarding their Mesorah of Ashkenaz havarah) and use a tav. A Saf is still far better.

Similarly, the non-guttural ches is arguably better than a simple imitation of the letter “hay”, since Ashkenaz does not have a mesorah for the guttural ches.

On the flip side, the non-askenazic havarah does not distinguish between a patach and a kamatz. That can’t be authentic, either…(Nor do both Ashkenaz and Sefard differentiate between a tes and a tav. So if the similarity is an issue…)

Ironically, the Israeli children are taught and/or speak a real cholent of a havarah with mixed ois and ohs (worse than their American counterparts who are generally consistent one way or the other), and even take it a step further with things like dropping the “hey” altogether and pronouncing it like an aleph.

Uncorrupted Ashkenaz (ohs) and Teiman are the closest things to the genuine deal, with Teiman being closer.