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Matan, it’s not necessary to write about my personal experiences.
There are various tznius issues evident by simply perusing YU’s official blog, to say nothing of the things people have written about to the YU Commentator.
I don’t understand why you keep trying to deny this. YU is proudly M.O. (“Nowhere but Here”), and M.O. has different “standards” than traditional Orthodoxy does.
Matan, you wrote: “HaKatan- Whats wrong with a kosher social gathering of men and women?”
Nothing, of course. But these gatherings that YU has are not “kosher social gathering
of men and women” but rather non-kosher ones.
Matan, I didn’t write “promiscuous”; I wrote mixed-gender. Mixing the genders is a problem even without promiscuity. Just reading through YU’s blog indicates this mixing, though that’s not the extent of it, obviously.
At no point did I imply promiscuity. Kedusha of a ben and bas melech, however, requires much more than not being promiscuous.
Matan, I would presume the level of learning in YU’s BM is wonderful, but unfortunately that’s irrelevant due to YU’s hashkafa. For example, besides for general issues with MO, YU’s school-sponsored events where the two genders mix partly defeats the purpose of attending gender-separate schools even if you’re not forced to attend those events.
If you want to save money on the Bas Mitzvah, you might want to ask your LOR if it’s at all appropriate to make any sort of party. This is an halachic issue, not “mere” hashkafa.
My understanding is that it should be in the house and for family (perhaps classmates, too, though I don’t recall the particulars). That should fit the budget.
It’s brought down in halacha to add a name when naming after another person, in certain circumstances. Also, there are actually some phrase names in Tanach, so it’s not quite true that they all had only one first name.
Interesting topic, though.
It’s interesting how Zionists are very quick to trumpet the kashrus of their idolatry, but when shown how their idolatry is really chazir treif, it conveniently becomes time to move on without a word in response.
Shmad is, indeed, a powerful word, but, no, it should not be reserved for the czar.
While I don’t dispute (Chazal say so, so there is nothing to dispute) that a person should preferably earn a living on his own rather than rely on Tzeddakah, this has nothing to do with this job fair.
As gedolim have stated in the past, and as is now plain to see for all, the goal of Zionism is shmad. “Religious Zionists” probably mean well despite this truth, but this does not change the reality of Zionism, whose very purpose is shmad.
So, in light of all this, back to the thread: who was running this job fair, what kind of jobs were offered and, also importantly, which rabbinic authority backed the protesters?
147, you need to read up on the subject. You wrote:
“
Well, if the Chareidim were first, how were they not able to convince the British Mandate to have open door policy to every Jew? Especially during the Holocaust. Or maybe they simply didn’t care about or embrace every Jew?”
The obvious answer to your rhetorical question is, aderaba, even though the yishuvim indisputably predate Zionist conquest, the Zionists had the power and world attention.
The Zionists insisted that they alone were the legitimate leaders of the Jewish people and they murdered Yaacov DeHaan, allegedly for that reason. The Zionists also had quite a history during the Holocaust as they were the address for Jewish concerns from the 1920s and on; for example, Chaim Weizmann testified in London on behalf of the Jews for the Peel Commission. The Zionist Jewish Agency for Palestine sent a memo to the Evian conference.
All this was well before the disaster was inestimably worsened with the establishment of the State of Israel.
The yishuv, consisting of Jews who simply wanted to live in peace with their neighbors and to NOT rule over them, was powerless.
Josh, if you are a(n honest) Zionist, you really don’t want to talk about Zionists and the Nazi death machine in the same breath.
There’s much more, but consider this, from AICE, just for starters:
In case you’re wondering, the AICE has, right on their home page, quotes from both Israeli PM Netanyahu and also from President Obama. This is not just some anti-Israel site that states this, but one that supports Israel.
Here is their mission statement:
Health, I did and do understand the context. But I still feel the words chosen still were at least a possible indicator of what I wrote, which, if that were the case, would be improper.
So, despite my respect for you and your opinions, I still maintain that the post should have been worded differently.
I also respect your opinion if you disagree with me on this, but I do maintain my opinion as I stated here.
I don’t know about this organization, but YWN wrote that the protesters “accuse the organization of pulling avreichim from the beis medrash and into the workplace, where their lifestyle and adherence to Torah and Halacha would be compromised.”
So if that’s a real concern then their protest is valid. But if it’s not a real concern then their protest is a fraud.
The article doesn’t mention any more, like who runs this organization, and if their adherence to a Torah life would be respected/accommodated.
Health, while you may have intended differently, this is what you wrote:
“How did we become just like the Goyim, that when there isn’t a parent or a Rebbe watching us, we need the cops around to make us behave?”
You rhetorically stated (asked) how it is that we, meaning the kids, are just like the goyim. To which I (and others) answered that, in fact, we (including the kids) are not “just like the goyim”.
Chachamim Hizaharu Bidivreichem…
No. We are *very much* NOT “just like the goyim” even if these kids expressed themselves with a lack of derech eretz.
There may be room for improvement, but these are not “goyim”.
While I am not denying this seems like a chilul Hashem, which is deplorable, the general secular culture is falling hard and fast, and this affects everyone.
We have lost a massive amount of gedolim in the past few years, and, as we know from VaYetzei, the departure of a tzaddik from a place makes an appreciable difference.
Again, I am not claiming this is justified, but it’s not difficult to understand how it could have happened.
May we all merit the true geula BB”A.
far east, I did not imply, CH”V, that Rabbi JBS held more of secular knowledge than of the Torah. That is, however, an MO phenomenon, even though he explicitly stated that it’s better to avoid culture as much as possible. For some reason, the practicality of this part of his address seems lost to MO.
GAW, I am not defending that “cult”, as you call it, and I don’t necessarily agree with anything/some things/everything that they do. And I have stated numerous times that the Yetzer HaRa targets everyone.
But that was not my point. My point was and is that as opposed to traditional orthodoxy, MO is unique in that it is mattir issurim and its very birth was based on a now-known-to-be faulty premise, that traditional Orthodoxy could not survive in America. Not only can it and does it, but even “Ultra-Orthodoxy” thrives. Back to MO, Zionism alone is a major problem. This has all been discussed repeatedly.
anon1m0us, MO does not believe in Daas Torah like traditional orthodox do and, from what I understand, MO frowns on the whole concept; they obviously do believe in psak halacha from a Rav, though. If I am wrong here and MO does teach “daas Torah”, I would be interested in being corrected on this. This is irrelevant to the point of the matter.
As I stated above, I was discussing a movement, not a person or persons. I did not mean to “hate” anyone, CH”V, only to point out the spiritual dangers of MO.
For the record, I have never posted under any other name and I do not do so now; nor do I expect to do so in the future. Therefore, the “Joseph” references are not appreciated as they are false.
JayMatt, for the record, I do not post under any other screen name, and I do not know who Joseph and Ben Levi are.
Health already answered your question and, as I noted above, I wasn’t addressing the propriety of discussing this in public (i.e. to the secular press).
I stand by my original post, that there is a major difference between Sandy and Sandy Hook.
It’s not ironic at all. Israelis may do things differently as, for one, they have a different culture to deal with so they may have to play by different rules. So this has no bearing on American Jewry.
MO, starting from Rabbi JBS, on the other hand, touts modernity as a reason to do things differently whereas traditional orthodox tout absolute fidelity to halacha and daas Torah as their banner. Though, again, the Yetzer Hara is happy to target everyone.
Thank you, Ben Levi. If I recall correctly, Chazal does say, as you mentioned, that mishkav zachar was what sealed the fate of the Dor HaMabul, resulting in the destruction of almost the entire world.
Regardless of whether or not it’s appropriate to make a public statement on the matter, I’m surprised any Torah Jew could be so cavalier about toeiva marriage when Hashem called it an abomination straight out in the Torah.
I agree with rebdoniel here.
Yenta, I don’t believe you thought through the matter before posting what you did.
We don’t know Hashem’s ways, and the Newtown, CT massacre is difficult to comprehend.
Also, the two incidents are not comparable.
In CT, an individual with his own free-will acted as he did, with the terrible results that followed.
In Sandy, on the other hand, Hashem, using His “forces of nature”, orchestrated a powerful show of destruction that caused billions of dollars in damage without any weapons.
So to try to understand CT, one has to first understand the parameters of bechira.
But to explain Sandy, there is no immediately apparent factor of bechira because this wasn’t bullets from a human’s gun but rather water from Hashem’s “nature”.
So let’s take what we do know.
This storm, Sandy, seems to have been a wildly unpredictable and major disruption of the “natural order”. If one is perfectly objective, leaving any rights issues out of the equation, Toeiva marriage is, of course, the same thing. It takes a male and female to physically conceive a child. Men and women are “wired” differently, and children benefit from having two parents, one of each perspective. This is obvious, well known and clear, even from a secular perspective.
We also have Chazal who tell us that the only zechus the nations have is that they don’t write a kesuba bein Ish LiIsh. This storm also happened right after we read about the mahapeichas Sedom, whose name is synonymous with the basic act of Mishkav Zachar.
Governor Cuomo also ran on the platform that he would legalize this abomination.
So, despite certain obvious questions, I certainly see why the Rabbis you quoted came to the conclusion they did.
SJS:
Your “always pleasant” subtitle was not very evident in your previous posts.
Since you can’t defend the points, you chose to bow out. That’s okay; you don’t have to defend anything, much less the indefensible like MO.
If this story, about not davening without a black hat, is true, it must have been any respectable hat, not just black.
The reason you are scratching your head is that a black hat during davening is, in fact, NOT a fashion statement. (The black part might be fairly uniform, but the whole thing is certainly not a fashion statement.) Just as every dignified human male wears both a suit and a hat, with the exceptions of much of those influenced by the decline of the society around us, one must do the same when addressing the King of Kings.
Giluy Arayos is Yeihareig ViAl Yaavor. What would medicinal purposes have to do with anything? And why would it have to be mixed, even if it were medicinal?
Face facts: MO elevated modernity on a pedestal and, in the process, tramples on parts of the Torah.
As well, there are more shades of gray than a simple stark comparison between Chareidi and MO.
Finally, Traditional Orthodoxy, which Rabbi JBS mistakenly thought would become a museum piece and was his impetus for creating MO, did not, B”H, become a museum piece.
BE”H, the truth will be revealed BB”A.
Avi K: no, it’s not.
There were many yishuvim before Zionism. One does not need a State in order to settle there. It is also an aveira to conquer E”Y before Hashem has redeemed us. Further, it is insanely stupid to even attempt to do so, because the punishment described there in the gemara for doing so is unimaginably terrible. Yes, I suppose the rest of my contentions were just as (non-)ludicrous.
Zionism is worshipped in two ways. By non-religious people, it is their God to whom they sacrifice everything: their lives, children, religion of their fathers, et al. By “religious Zionists”, it ranks in importance right after (I hope it’s after) Shema Yisrael.
As has been amply demonstrated before in other threads and is clear to anyone not drunk on Zionist Kool-Aid, the goal of Zionism was and is to shmad Jews. By elevating this same Zionism to a tenet of faith, the MO and “Religious Zionists” are lessening the chashivus of other mitzvos.
And by denying any part of Toras Moshe Rabbeinu, like the part about the gimmel shevuos, and replacing that with this abomination of Zionism, sounds like idolatry to me.
shmendrick, you are mistaken.
If you open the sefer to the introduction, you will see his son writes very clearly that his father’s wish for a Jewish entity was not to be considered a validation of any ism, including Zionism.
I dare not criticize his work, though others far greater than I already have. But the bottom line is that this sefer does not in any way “condone” the idolatry of Zionism.
rebdoniel, it’s all discussed elsewhere, including on these boards. But the idolatry of Zionism alone is a show-stopper. Publishing reviews of bars/pubs in MO publications (reviewed, in person, by a Jew, of course), going mixed swimmming, et al. would all qualify as “failing to meet the standard”, too. The recent high-profile chilul Hashem of a conversion is also not halachicly acceptable.
With all due respect, rebdoniel, before you read random sefarim on random topics, you might want to look at one called Pirkei Avos. Therein, one is commanded “asei licha rav…” If you haven’t done so, that’s definitely the way to start before reading sefarim and changing your world view based on a sefer, no matter how legitimate and clear that other sefer may be.
SJS, once more, while “everyone is a work in progress”, only MO redefines Halacha to fit modernity, and those MO standards are not “within halacha” as you claim, MO delusions to the contrary not withstanding.
As to your request for a quote, they quoted “Rabbi Joseph B. Soloveichik, Five Addresses”. I hope that satisfies your requirements.
As to your quip at the end seemingly mockingly implying that I don’t need any form of modern progress, you seem to believe that in addition to MO allowing you to redefine halacha, that you also are the sole claimants to everything pertaining to modernity outside halacha.
This is, of course, a mistake. Traditional Orthodox Jews are as savvy and engaged, within the bounds of halacha, as anyone could be with modern technology, including MO. Hashem created many nissim and niflaos, and it is obviously good to bring nachas to Hashem from those since they enable one to be a better eved Hashem.
But where “modernity” and, more accurately, “culture”, conflicts with halacha, like wearing short skirts, not covering hair (properly, if at all) going mixed swimming, Zionism, et al., where one would, therefore, be lacking in his serving G-d, then halacha takes precedence over modernity/culture for traditional Orthodoxy, unlike in MO where modernity trumps halacha, regardless.
I again want to emphasize that I’m not judging anyone but am speaking in generalities about a movement.
DaasYochid, although I do not judge anyone, the movement they associate with is still what it is.
The major points are, as I said, that the movement is mattir issurim even though Rabbi JBS specifically stated that it’s better to avoid “secular culture…negative and perverse aspects”, certainly not to be mattir issurim; and that MO is mitaher and miskadeish the idolatry of Zionism, even though Zionism was and is kineged the daas of practically every gadol, Zionist propaganda not withstanding, and Zionism is now, clear for all to see, a disaster of terrible magnitude. Like the baal or molech, how many human sacrifices, physical and/or spirtual, CH”V, make it worth it to be able to serve this idol of Zionism?
rebdoniel, the majority of posters on this forum might not be “modern” enough for you. But you are being motzi shem ra on many, if not all, in this forum, of all stripes when you make your spurious claims.
Ironically, you call on everyone to “unite around the banner of halakha” when the movement you identify with does not maintain 100% fidelity to halacha, even though they might try to fool themselves that they do.
It was the militant and kineged-daas-Torah baryonim, who were the final cause of the destruction of one Beis HaMikdash. Their closest modern-day equivalent are the Zionists whose faith MO hold so dear, strangely above almost all else, sadly.
Yet in the same paragraph you seem to question how a reform Jew is “not Jewish enough”. Halacha has clear parameters as to what a Jew is and what is an apostate Jew. Denying the Oral law, not to mention ignoring much of the written law, does not a good Jew make.
What surprised me most in the allegations above is the yichud issue. If that’s true, this is very surprising. That there are sick people is, unfortunately, not surprising. That people are blinded by the allure of money, too, is also not surprising. That people are corrupt and unchecked, is also not shocking. But, besides for the improprieties, that an institution would not only permit but require a vulnerable teen to be misyacheid with any man, much less her “therapist”, which is very much against the Torah and common sense, not to mention the extortion tactics and tremendously high hourly fee, is very depressing to read, because, IMHO, that seems to indicates a larger rot than a few bad apples.
But, as we read this past week, your beloved bastion of MO also had better things to do (money) than to deal with allegations of impropriety.
And there is actually a recent high-profile conversion that was done by respected MO rabbanim, which was and is a chilul Hashem. Speaking about halacha, “Ain cholkim kavod laRav” where Chilul Hashem is involved, as in that case. But, in the interest of shalom, I will not name any of the parties involved.
So many people are hurting, across many sectors of yahadus.
May Hashem redeem us all, BB”A.
SJS: you didn’t read my rhetorical question.
Of course, the yetzer hara is an equal opportunity yetzer.
You missed the whole last part of “why go OTD if your theology claims it’s permissible to be over aveiros within the framework of “MO”?” Note the part about “your theology claims it’s permissible to be over aveiros”. This dubious distinction belongs to MO, not traditional orthodoxy. Traditional orthodoxy rightly holds that it is forbidden to do all aveiros, even ones that conflict with secular culture and we don’t really like.
So since you mentioned skirts, there might be some Traditional Orthodox women who have their struggles with Tznius. But they don’t claim they are better than those who do adhere faithfully to Tznius. Whereas MO holds you can just do what you want (obviously, even MO has their limits, but those limits are already well outside normative orthodox Judaism).
Here is your quote that Rabbi JBS said MO is a horaas shaah (at best). Mishpacha Magazine seems to have had an article on Rabbi JBS.
On another site, regarding that Mishpacha article, the following is part of a comment posted there.
[but]
Note also the part about “This secular culture entails destructive elements, many negative and perverse aspects; it may be a blessing and a curse simultaneously, and thus AS LONG AS ONE CAN LIVE WITHOUT IT SO MUCH THE BETTER FOR THE SPIRIT”.
This doesn’t sound like something anybody should *want* to be a part of. If you (foolishly) claim there is no other way, then you are simply denying reality.
While there may be flaws in lots of “systems”, that doesn’t excuse abrogating halacha, CH”V, which clearly, and proudly, happens in MO, even if they feel they that modernity permits them to do so. What you posit amounts to “I can proudly violate the Torah because their system is flawed”. I would not agree that this is a Torah approach.
DaMoshe, again, I believe your latest comparison is also incorrect.
Let me spell it out: “Michanfin laRasha mipnei Darkei Shalom”. So this is “fair play”, at least in whatever cases it halachicly applies. But allowing gay clubs is not.
SJS, why go OTD if your theology claims it’s permissible to be over aveiros within the framework of “MO”? So your comparison to BY is not valid, as you can’t, for example, go mixed swimming as a BY.
As has been mentioned before, Rabbi Soloveichik invented MO as a horaas sha’ah because he was afraid that traditional Orthodoxy would become a relic. B”H, his fears were quite unfounded, and, besides, as he himself wrote then, the further one can distance one’s self from culture the better. I guess MO doesn’t hold of that part.
As a matter of practical application, for instance, any male who attends a Broadway show, even with eye coverings and earplugs, as ridiculous as that is, is still a halachic rasha (though I do respect his efforts).
I don’t see how any true Orthodoxy could be worse that halachic rishous, though I don’t claim that all segments of Orthodoxy do everything correctly. But I don’t know of any segment of Orthodoxy other than MO that proudly institutionalizes certain aveiros as muttar. For instance, I’ve never seen reviews of bars/pubs and the use of semi-vulgar “street” terminology in Hamodia or Yated, but I have seen both in a YU publication since, I suppose, that’s part of being “modern” and therefore muttar.
As for MO thriving, it’s nice that the Teaneck is thriving. But MO is still what it is.
DaMoshe, if you examine the likely intended outcome of each action, you would quickly see that the two are not comparable.
UJA can support whatever organizations it feels like, and its priorities are conveyed by those choices.
Whereas Agudah has to work with whichever politicians are in power. This includes honoring someone at a dinner. Also, see the mefarshim on Yaakov calling Esav “Adon”. in last week’s parsha.
Of course, two wrongs anyways don’t make a right. But, in this case, it seems like there’s only one wrong and it’s not Agudah’s.
shmendrick, I presume your post was serious, offensive as it is.
The answer to your question is that, for starters, if you will be a better oveid Hashem elsewhere then you are obligated to NOT live in Lakewood and to live in whatever place that is, much as it would be nice to breathe in the air of all that learning in Lakewood. Yours is a question based on what’s known in learning as an emotional sevara.
DaMoshe, your response contains ideas that are incorrect. And you say I claim it is a list of things wrong with Zionism. So instead of answering those points to defend Zionism, since you seem to like Zionism, you bring in externalities that don’t dispute that list.
But since you asked, perhaps let’s add to and/or clarify that list above:
First, even in galus there are times of relative peace, even if that peace is far from the tranquility of the end-times. There is no requirement to have a disastrous State of Israel to make things inestimably worse, as I wrote above.
Regardless, the point of mentioning they Israel has not had even one day of peace in 60+ years is that this is an indication of just how wrong their theology is. Their official raison d’etre (which is really a lie, anyways) is to provide a safe haven for Jews. That they have not known a day of peace in 60+ years means very clearly that they were very badly mistaken and that this is a very bald lie. Yet, as I wrote, people still believe this nonsense propaganda.
As to your other assertions:
Israel cannot claim it “watches out for all Jews”. It can’t even properly watch over the ones in its “borders”. Besides, even before its formal existence, Zionists turned away Jews from the shores of Eretz Yisrael, fully aware that these Jews would then be returned to be murdered in Europe. Like the Nazis, the Zionists, back then, wanted only the young and strong to come to Palestine, not the “old and infirm” who were, in the Zionist’s words “like dust…shall pass”. Google it and see for yourself.
As for the Japan saga, those innocent boys were Israeli citizens so Israel had an obligation to them. That doesn’t make them savoir of Jews. Besides, it probably served Israel’s interests here to intervene, as this was an easy way for Israel to propagate this myth you claim, just like a chazir claims to be a kosher animal. As well, see Shlomo HaMelech’s remark “ViHaKesef Yaaneh es haKol”, which is the likely the greatest reason here.
Even if the Satmar Rebbe may have owed a personal debt of gratitude to Kasztner since he was freed on that train (which Eichmann allowed on condition that Kasztner deceive the rest of Hungarian Jewry), this does not change the halachic and realistic understanding that the State of Israel was and is a disaster. Halacha is non-negotiable, even if someone does you favors.
It seems you’ve “learned a few things from Israel and the Zionists”, like pulling the wool over your eyes and ignoring reality and history.
Health, thank you.
Chanukah Sameach to all.
jmh, her (KW) point is well taken.
The crucial distinction between Eretz Yisrael and, lihavdil elef alfei havdalos, Zionism, should answer most of the “questions”.
But despite the technology, innovations and Yeshivos, the ideology of Zionism and its communist propaganda is so bankrupt that it’s almost beyond comprehension how rational people still believe in it!
Just take a look at the news coming out of Israel. It seems every day there is another story that indicates just how mistaken this Zionist egel was and is.
Today, one can read on YWN that the IDF soldiers cannot defend themselves against these savages but have to run away from them because cameras are rolling and world opinion won’t like the response.
This is the Zionist answer to the “galut Jew”: to outdo the galus Jew, not to make it better as they dream. The Zionists are prisoners in “their own land”, where their army has to cut and run, the entire country is practically a walled entity with multi-million dollar missile shields and bomb shelters that still don’t provide total protection — and which should not be necessary to begin with — and they have never known a day of peace and fought multiple bloody wars in its rather bloody few decades of existence, not to mention all the terror attacks, ch”V, Hashem Yishmor.
What normal country builds bomb shelters as a standard feature in its apartment buildings? What country doesn’t defend its own borders and can’t even define them?
How many thousands of Jews have died for this Egel, some of them quite brutally? How many families destroyed? Was it worth it? Do you believe there is any acceptable amount of blood?
The Torah says VaChai BaHem, not to sacrifice lives, CH”V, for this egel or for almost anything else. What about the tens of thousands of traumatized Jews? What about the doros and olamos of Jews intentionally shmaded by those reshaim, some of whom are, B”H, returning to Yahadus but many of whom who have not?
Yet, you intelligent and thinking people still believe in this idolatry and fraud even with 60+ years of history behind you! (And the gedolim all knew this even before 1948, contrary to Zionist propaganda; all agreed the State was and is a disaster, even after 1948. The Satmar Rav was different only in method of action, not in position.)
As I’ve posted before, if anyone can’t understand how people believed in the Baal and had the chutzpah to attend the show-down between Eliyahu HaNavi and, lihavdil, the Neviei HaBaal, as if there was some thought that the baal might win, then the mass indoctrination and Zionist brainwashing should make it quite clear how this could be. Stop and think how absurd this whole thing was. Eliyahu HaNavi, tells you Hashem is G-d and you actually show up to a mountain to wait and see if he’s right? It’s one thing to worship idols, as Chazal tell us the yetzer hara to do so was enormous. But to actually attend that showdown as if it wasn’t perfectly clear what the truth was and is?
Back to today, look at how many people believe in this nonsense of nationalism, which is a 19th century relic, and, worse, they have grafted that on to our holy Torah to surpass almost all else in importance. How is this possible?
The only rational answer seems to be, IMHO, as multiple gedolim have written, this is a magnificently orchestrated maase satan, and he has, unfortunately, fooled a lot of people. What other rational explanation is there for why so many wise and otherwise great people can be so sadly mistaken when it comes to this issue.
Josh, the executives of Google and Apple are not “royalty”. Do you daven in casual clothes? Maybe I shouldn’t ask.
Would the Queen of England wear denim? Would the former Ms. Middleton, now Princess Kate, wear it?
The world, not that long ago, wore hats, jackets and ties as standard formal-wear. That’s what anyone looked like on their typical commute home from work. Forget royalty. Look at old pictures; it is plain to see.
Even today, some sections of society still do wear dress coats and hats, such as the armed forces. Are they more regal than you, a ben melech?
What if the world switched to bathing attire, or none at all? Would that standard also apply to us, when Chaza”L tell us that Hashem despises nothing more than those who are holchim arumim like anshei barbaria?
Nor, for that matter, are even our Presidents considered the benchmark for royalty, though some are closer than others. Take any recent (or current) President and a Yeshiva guy in Hat and suit, and put the two in front of the Queen of England and her husband. To the eyes of someone who does not know any of the three, the one who would look least like they belong is the POTUS.
In truth, we are binei and binos milachim, regardless of how the world dresses. (And your implied disdain for Kollel/Chinuch life is wholly irrelevant to this topic. )
rebdoniel, it is not merely “good PR and for our gain”.
What you are stating is that our holy sages of yester-year were primitive and unenlightened, and Rav Dov Linzer knows better. This would be funny if it weren’t so sad and exactly opposite of what mesorah tells us.
Your latter remarks, however, that one should act “in consonance with our own social and political metziut” does not contradict this insofar as the specifications of Darkei Shalom apply. This, indeed, may “make us duty-bound to treat all people fairness, kindness and justice”, but only because of the applicability of darkei shalom, whatever exactly that means, not because of some ultra-MO “modernity” trumping the Torah, CH”V.
Your terribly misguided mistake remains, therefore, if you think that Linzer is more moral/enlightened than, lihavdil, Rava and Abaye.
To PuhLease and others in this type of situation:
While I can’t imagine the pain and suffering you must have gone through, and which must have helped drive you to make the decision you did, as I believe you indicated earlier, I still do not understand how you can be “at peace” where you are if that involves any sort of intentional neglect of halacha.
How does one who was religious and understands laws of this system, even if deprived of its beauty, consider one’s self to legitimately be “not religious any more” as if such a thing were possible?
I understand if a teen or even an adult rebels out of pain, CH”V, and I do sympathize even if I believe there has to be a better way than dropping one’s faith practices. But even in this case they still understand that their abandonment of mitzvos is simply their rebellion, not an alternate valid path. Please explain your thoughts on this matter.
While nobody is perfect, regardless of observance label, there is, of course, a difference between sinning while understanding the wrongness of the sin versus sinning and not caring.
You wrote that you submitted a post on Shabbos and it was not accepted. But surely you know that this is halachicly forbidden, not some overbearing hashkafa that is of no meaning to you. So how can you be at peace with doing something you know clearly is forbidden? Please explain, if you don’t mind.
Finally, regardless of the Jews in your prior circle, surely there is at least the possibility that there are observant Jews who do not do anything you find morally objectionable. Besides that, you’re free to observe without this behavior you dislike. So why go beyond that and throw away religious observance when you could observe “morally” rather than completely discard? Please explain.
Regarding your statement “but to use religion to justify terrible behavior, makes Jews as bad as the Moslems who blow people up in the name of Allah”, this is absolutely wrong, and I think your own biases are radically skewing your perspective.
No public Jewish Orthodox figure would dare to use religion to “justify terrible behavior”. They might rationalize that what they do is not so bad, or otherwise permitted. Or else, if you are referring to molesters, then they might wrongly allow their compassion on the alleged molester to overcome what they should instead be doing.
But for you to compare that, even if they are wrong and/or biased and issue a terribly incorrect halachic ruling, again, to compare that to these savages and their barbarity of indiscriminate homicide bombing, is wrong. Period.
May Hashem redeem us all and bring us to the time when Hashem’s Truth is revealed for all people to see.
Did you miss the part about the savages raining down rockets non-stop on innocent Israelis?
Etiquette is nice, but the Torah is chas on the mamon of Klal Yisrael. However, if your friends are within their own respective shanim rishona, I would think one should ask one’s LOR about splitting up these couples for the evening and that might be a reason to invite the both members of the couple.
2 states also passed laws allowing “gay marriage”.
The only zechus the goyim have is that they don’t write a kesuba bein ish liIsh. That “not writing…” is rapidly disappearing, and it is scary because oy laRasha viOy liShcheino, and now Hashem, for whatever is His reason(s), sent this second storm on top of Super-storm Sandy…
And Mr. Bloomberg somehow thinks this is a “civil rights” issue. Maybe people’s animals should also have full marital rights. Siblings, too, should be able to marry, by that logic. B”H they are free to do what they want, but that doesn’t make it marriage.
This whole “Gay marriage” nonsense is such a breathtaking fraud, yet so many successful and otherwise intelligent people fall for it.
May Hashem protect all His children and redeem us BB”A.
Why would you “drop America and go to Israel” if you’re concerned for Israel’s relationship with the United States?
“Aid it to stand on its own without foreign aid” means to move to Israel? Really? Given the billions of dollars that Israel needs to spend just to stay alive in that neighborhood, may Hashem protect all His children, nothing short of a major change, like Sheldon Adelson’s changing the media there, will have any positive effect on Israel’s bottom line.
The rest of your post essentially indicates that it’s better to remain and vote in the United States for someone else next time. The support for Yahadus in this medina shel chessed is nothing to take for granted and, in the United States, the typical person on the street all the way up through the government, actually respects religion. Unlike Israel.
The Rambam (IIRC) says something like it’s very foolish and playing with fire (i.e. strongly recommended against this), though it seems like it is technically muttar, as Sam2 mentioned (assuming hirhurim, etc. are not an issue).
PuhLease, your words seem to be an emotional gut-reaction, rather than a logical thought-out response.
I don’t believe that understanding this topic is marchik Mashiach, but crying “Mashiach isn’t coming because…” is generally an erroneous feel-good excuse for covering up what shouldn’t be covered up.
Emes is Hashem’s signature, and we are supposed to emulate Hashem in appropriate ways. This is one of those. There are times when tact and evasion may be called for (see Hashem’s response to Sara Imeinu last week), but this is clearly not one of those times when the truth should be covered up.
Everyone should know the truth about our faith whose Torah is a Toras Emes, and if people wish to, and/or otherwise do, distort our holy faith, then those distortions should be exposed as distortions so people are not mislead off the derech Hashem. This has nothing to do with being “self-righteous”. While there may be more than one right (and wrong) derech in avodas Hashem, that doesn’t mean just any alleged derech is proper/permitted. Abrogation of halacha, by any name, is not permitted.
(I’m sorry all the people you associate with are, in your estimation, (part-time?) liars. B”H, I don’t believe that to be typical of Klal Yisrael.)
I do agree with you, however, that these threads don’t replace a Rav. Pirkei Avos says “Asei Licha Rav”, not Asei Licha Coffee Room.
It’s a befeirush gemara that “Ain Puranus ba LaOlam ela…”.
That doesn’t mean we know why Hashem brought this or any other storm. But Chazal have already informed us of the general principle.
It’s also interesting that you mention your “theory” after this particular storm, which was unprecedented and was a “perfect storm”, not a “typical” storm, and therefore was that much more “miraculous”.
ybrooklynteacher, the “ow” is for a cholam, not a kamatz or patach.
coffee addict, the Torah itself commands us to not pay heed to miracles, but it’s anyways not a proof to anything here. Not to mention we anyways don’t know Hashem’s ways and reasons: “Ki lo Machshivosai Machshivoseichem viLo Darkeichem Dirachai…”, as we see in Navi.
This has all been hashed and rehashed before.
By your logic, Hitler’s rise to power and his terrible atrocities was also what Hashem “wanted”, because if you study the history of how he got to where he did, there was no realistic way that it should have ever happened. It was nissim that the Holocaust DID happen, on the scale of Purim (lihavdil, ayein the mifarshim).
I apologize if this offended anyone, but this truth is very illustrative of how fallacious this Zionist fantasy is; nissim are not endorsement, as Hashem Himself says so in the Torah.
Also, one who holds your logic might explain why they don’t convert to Christianity or Islam. How did those faiths come to claim well over a billion of combined adherents, if it wasn’t the ratzon Hashem? Obviously, Hashem does things that aren’t necessarily what we should be aiming for, which He has His Own reasons for.
Regardless, in the nidon didan, the alternative to those nissim was and still is, Hashem Yishmor, “lo nishtaaru miSoneihem shel Yisrael afilu sarid uPalit” in Eretz Yisrael. So the reason for those nissim is pretty clear: simple pikuach nefesh. Not to mention that Hashem can have his own reasons that have nothing to do with endorsing Zionism, such as allowing bechira, etc.
It is sadly foolish and a chutzpah to take these chasdei Hashem, past and present, as an endorsement of this maaseh satan which has been, sadly, so successful in fooling our people.
Incidentally, I have heard a number of very prominent people use “oh” for cholam during davening, though they use “oy” for cholam in learning/colloquially.
It is very clear and obvious that despite what you may hear, “choylam” is a shibush and not correct (for davening, etc.), as posted above.
“147” put it better and succinctly.
mommamia22, I’m sorry you feel that pulling the wool over your eyes is better than knowing the truth, but I prefer the latter.
And, yes, I still maintain that everyone, not just rabbanim, should know the truth about any “derech” that they (or their kids) might be exposed to and MO is certainly in that category unless you live and work in certain monolithic neighborhoods.
Besides, what do you have to hide? IF you feel MO is valid, then defend it rather than covering it up.
Aaron Chaim, what you say makes sense in theory but is absurd in practice. How is it any more convenient to use a gross distortion than it is to pronounce the word correctly?
How is “chumish” any more convenient than “chumash”, and “yontiff” for “yom tov”? It’s not, unless you’re simply used to using a distorted nonsensical pronunciation (“yuntiff”, minei ubeih, anyways makes no sense as you’re using two different pronunciations for the same “oh” vowel) and weren’t taught to say it right and are too lazy to change to the correct way. It is no more convenient than to say it right.
Incidentally, Mazel Tov is actually a “convenient” way of saying “mazal tov” (patach then kamatz).
So, while you are correct that you can, if you want to, for whatever reason, speak informally however it is convenient, the reality is that people are taught to, and still do, daven with these havaros.
Speaking of davening, there are people who say one or more of Hashem’s names with a cholam but other words with a Choylam. This is while davening, not while talking out of “convenience” informally.
Once again, why are people still being taught (to daven with) these questionable havaros?
“just my hapence”, I cannot imagine ever using “oy” instead of “oh”, in davening, no matter where I live. Why would you corrupt your davening with a made-up havara just because society does it? I understand the influence and being used to it, etc. but why don’t you speak to your Rav and convince others to join you in davening properly?
TLKY:
Neither Yankees nor Southerners have it wrong.
The German “ow” versus the ashkenaz “oh”, for example, can be described as a different dialect and neither is any more correct than the other as they are essentially the same.
But when it gets to an “oy” instead of “oh”, and “yuntiff” instead of “yom tov”, and vowels being completely switched around (and perhaps even in the case of a kamatz being practically erased as a distinct vowel from patach), it is long past being considered a different dialect.
TLKY, I take your word for that, but, the fact remains that nearly everyone pronounces all the vowels almost the same and there are too many current variations for it to all be authentic.
My example from England was, I thought, an excellent illustration. I’m not aware that they have a mesorah to say a sh’va as a kamatz; it’s obviously a dialectical issue that came via their exposure to their host country.
As well the example of yumtev and yuntiff: again, liShitasam, it should be yoimtoiv. (As pronounced, “yumtev” is actually closer to a cholam than choylam.) So where did yumtev come in? Again, it must be a local corruption.
So these other variations, like choylam, also are likely attributable to the same thing.
Is this not clear? Luhavdil, look at the different pronunciations in American English? LA, Chicago, NY, FL, TX, et al. have some pretty noticeable differences. But, for Lishon HaKodesh, we’re talking about mesorah, not culture.
So why are these variations still being perpetuated?
YehudaYona:
There’s a difference between holding on to your mesorah and holding on to a shibush. My “yumtev” illustration from earlier should indicate how absurd this is.
If you listen to Jewish music recordings of ashkenaz kids in England, you will hear their pronunciation of a sh’va as a kamatz. This seems to be a local/dialectical issue, and not that they have a different mesorah than other ashkenazim.
Teimanim, despite the length of their mesorah, have still lived that mesorah in an Arab country. So it’s not unlikely that their mesorah has been, over the years, adapted to the local dialect.
I would guess that this is also how Sefardim (Persians being notable exceptions) came to pronounce both patach and kamatz as a patach. Listen to the languages and dialects of their host countries.
This is why I agree with “Curiosity” that people should not switch to Teimani, since there’s no guarantee that Moshe Rabbeinu spoke that way at Har Sinai, and I would think, in my humble opinion, that he did not speak quite that way, though they may be closest in many, if not all, ways to the original.
Other than some Chassidim and Teimanim, everyone across the spectrum of galus (i.e. German, “Ashkenaz” and Sefard) all pronounce every vowel similarly, if not the same, except for some Ashkenazim who, for some reason, pronounce the cholam as a choylam and many sefardim who pronounce both kamatz and patach as patach.
Since both the “choylam” and Chassidic havara of swapping the vowels and mileil/milra are recent inventions (like “yumtev” or “yuntiff”), why are these not “rolled back” to *their* original and why are succeeding generations being taught questionable, if not mistaken, havaros?