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AAQ:
Rav Elchonon was one of the many gedolim (as in a real gadol biYisrael) who held this way, as can be seen in his Kovetz Maamarim. Anyone can search for his biographical information, like how he returned to Europe during the war despite the extreme danger to his life this presented (and he was ultimately murdered by Lithuanian collaborators, along with his talmidim).He and the other gedolim who held this way were obviously not “all about” anti-Zionism. They taught and published Torah, of course. The context here, however, is their clarity on the threat of Zionism to Jews and to Torah.
yankel berel:
You seem very confused.
Please don’t claim that I stated things that I never did and that, liHavdil, no gadol ever did.Evalimoshavlo:
On that note, I would like to cry out to the Ribbono Shel Olam.
“Eichah neHepcha liZona kiryah neemanah?” (under the Zionists, of course).
After 2,000 years of galus, your children have been battered by these wicked Zionists for over a century, who have now intentionally destroyed/shmaded at least three generations of Jews, numbering in the millions, not to mention the physical destruction these wicked heretics caused during the Holocaust
This is something that was always unfathomable, that “Jews” would do this to Jews and for such a long time, too.
Tell that to our Bubbas and Zaydes a 100 years ago. They wouldn’t have believed it!
In fact, the Chazon Ish himself didn’t think the Zionist “State” would last more than 50 years at most, but the Brisker Rav replied that the Zionists will spiritually feed off of the support they provide to the Jews learning Torah there. The Zionists are doing their best to stop that, which means that sooner rather than later there will be no more Zionist idol in any form.
I want to beg the Ribbono Shel Olam on this Zionist invented “Yom Tov” that you bring the true geulah so that your children are no longer fooled by the idolatry and heresy of Zionism.SQUARE_ROOT:
Nobody cares what the NK do or don’t do. Besides, when’s the last time you even heard from them?
The Torah’s opinion is that Zionism is diametrically opposed to the Torah and therefore Judaism. That’s about what we care.And every member of the Zionist club is an ALLY of the wicked Zionists who spread heresy and idolatry throughout the world and are ramping up their efforts to destroy the Torah and the its learners living in its pseudo-State.
More Zionism from SQUARE_ROOT:
“In a fascinating letter to Rabbi Menachem Porush, written half a year after Israel’s dramatic victory in the Six-Day War [in year 1967 CE], Rabbi Sherer
agreed “that what transpired were great miracles.”PERSONAL COMMENT:
This short quote proves that Rabbi Moshe Sherer disagreed with those who said that Israel’s dramatic victory in the Six-Day War resulted from the sitra achra (satanic forces).””Obviously, Agudah lay leaders’ opinions are not relevant when they conflict with the Torah sages’ opinion, as is the case with the footnotes. Regardless, as to the above quotes, if he said that then he was basing himself on the Zionist lies and propaganda of the day, as the Zionist victory in their war of 1967, as even the Zionist historians admit, was never in doubt and also quite un-miraculous. In the footnotes at the end, you claim that this Agudah lay leader held the opposite of what all the gedolim held, despite your trumpeting how close to gedolim he was throughout his life. Obviously, either you’re mistaken about what he held (regardless of what any book claims he held), or he missed what the gedolim held. Rav Elchonon wrote openly in Kovetz Maamarim, and it’s also brought in the Brisker Rav book (and the Brisker Rav actually published in an Israeli newspaper, on which the Gerrer Rebbe and many others signed) that Zionism is idolatry and that “Religious Zionism” is idolatry with the addition of religion. The newspaper Kol Korei quote was that “Religious Zionist” education is a “sea of heresy mixed in with a drop of Torah”.
At least one other “personal comment” is also irrelevant, because no gadol ever stated that the sitra achara was the cause of the Zionists’ victory in their war of 1967. Rather, the Satmar Rav stated that the Zionist victory was decidedly un-miraculous. The sitra achara part of it is only that the Zionists were able to do such damage to Jews and Judaism AS A RESULT OF and IN THE AFTERMATH of that victory.
Finally, the comments about not doing as do the NK are also irrelevant. The Zionist love to frame their idolatry and lies as a binary of either being pro-Zionist or the alternative of NK. The truth, of course, is that there is the very large middle ground between those two approaches, with the Torah’s choice being with neither of those (though the NK are much, much, much closer to the truth than are the Zionists).
Eileh elohecha, Zionists.
chaim_baruch:
Jews the world over should be offended by and concerned over the Zionist rip-off and destruction of Judaism and the Zionist shmad of Jews, regardless of whether those Jews live in the Zionist paradise or elsewhere.chaim_baruch:
The improvement that can and should be made is that all Jews should recognize the truth that gedolim have been stating for over a century which is that Zionism is heresy and idolatry, including “Religious Zionism”.When the Zionist “State” was founded, the Brisker Rav (who lived there) because physically ill. The Chazon Ish tried to console him and make him feel better by invoking the Chazal of “gezeirah raah avida liHibatla”. The Brisker Rav responded that this is true only if people recognize that bad decree as bad. But if they think it is good, then that dictum from Chazal does not apply.
That is the main purpose in speaking truthfully about the shmad Zionist idol, not for “practical” reasons.
The gedolim warned that Zionism would cause unimaginable death and destruction, which it did in the Holocaust.
Just the simple treason of the Zionists lobbying governments against allowing in Jews to their countries, and also not allowing “Zionist” money to be spent to save Jews, regardless, are terrible enough. The reason that Palestine was basically closed was that the Zionists had invaded decades earlier and were fighting and terrorizing both the British and the Arabs. Otherwise, that, too, would have been open to Jews.But read the history books, even if you won’t listen to the gedolim. The evil Zionists caused the Holocaust and also contributed to it.
Eileh elohecha, Zionist idolaters.
yankel berel:
Those are the facts. The Zionist propaganda and lies generally reigns almost supreme, and, regarding the Zionist 6-day war, the Zionist propaganda and lies about that was certainly the only widely-known version of “facts” until later declassifications, etc.DaMoshe:
Perfidy is not a history book, but history books make it clear that the Zionists both caused and contributed to the Holocaust.
Regarding “thick skull”, it is the “Modern Orthodox” and “Religious Zionists” that seem to have this issue.
Rav Elchonon Wasserman wrote explicitly, as did others, that both “religious” Zionism and vanilla Zionism are idolatry. But the former also mix Torah into that.You asserted, with zero basis in facts and reality, that:
“As for the Six Day War, the fact that R’ Yaakov said Hallel Hagadol means that he recognized it as a good thing.”If one recites the gomel blessing for having his life saved, for example, that doesn’t mean that he’s happy that he went through the danger that he did, only that he’s happy that his life was saved. Same thing with the Zionists. Yes, it’s certainly a good thing that the savages didn’t kill more Jews there but, no, that doesn’t make the Zionists’ wars inherently good. They are inherently bad, and never would have happened had the wicked Zionists not invaded the holy land against the wishes of the Jews (and liHavdil gentiles) over a century ago (and the Zionists then caused the Holocaust and numerous other problems).
The Gerrer Rebbe did indeed write that about Rabbi Kook. But since you’ve likely never opened up a sefer of the Satmar Rav, and therefore have no idea of what he actually holds other than the memes you learned in MO-land, you probably should refrain from spouting things against him, especially as those are untrue.
DaMoshe:
You haven’t read the history, obviously. Even a cursory reading of Perfidy would lead to the obvious conclusion that the Zionists caused the Holocaust, not just contributed to it, which is ghastly in and of itself.If not for the wicked Zionists and their lies, including Kastner, they would not have been gassed en masse.
DaMoshe:
This story from YTV proves nothing positive about Zionism. In fact, it is the opposite. Rav Yaakov was happy about the cessation of the Jerusalem-related dangers that the Zionists had caused in 1948.Let’s review the history.
Prior to the Zionist declaration of “independence” in 1948, Jews were free to pray at the Kosel.
In 1948, when the Zionists decided to declare “independence” and then wage war against the wishes of the gentile nations, Jerusalem was, regardless, supposed to be an international city. The Zionists were specifically warned to not attempt to conquer Jerusalem, as doing so would cause the Jordanian League to enter the war. The Zionists didn’t care, of course, as Jewish blood is freely expendable to the Zionists when it is sacrificed on the altar of Zionism, and the propaganda value of having Jerusalem was way too valuable for the wicked Zionists in their attempt to lie that their “State” is Jewish. So, the Zionists attempted to capture Jerusalem anyways, which indeed caused the Jordanians to enter the war and to prevent the Zionists from capturing Jerusalem. This now meant Jordanian snipers right outside of Jewish villages near Jerusalem even after the Zionist war in 1948 had concluded. Once the Zionists sacrificed more Jewish blood in 1967, and captured Jerusalem, this Jordanian threat directly caused by the Zionists in 1948 finally came to an end.Bottom line: the Zionists have always been the enemies of the Jews, not their friends.
yankel berel:
Even if Rav Aharon of Belz thought the same thing, even if that’s true, that is again only because of Zionist propaganda and lies. The facts are, however, that this (and the rest of the) Zionist propaganda is untrue. The wicked Zionists caused the Holocaust and also contributed to it including by lobbying governments against allowing Jews into their countries, causing those Jews to fall to the Nazi genocidal murderers. That’s why the survivors then needed a place to go – because the Zionists had lobbied countries against allowing in Jews.The Satmar Rav labeled the Zionists as, among other things, the arsonist who then comes running with a fire hose.
No matter how many rabbanim you claim were fooled by Zionist propaganda of a century ago, the fact remains that they were believing Zionist propaganda lies, and therefore any statement based on those lies is obviously irrelevant.smerel:
Nope and nope.
The CIA shows it plainly on their website that they told the propagandizing Zionists that the war would take about a week and that the Zionists would wipe the floor with the Arabs.The Zionists were not outnumbered; it’s all Zionist lies. The Zionists were vastly superior to the savages in their 1967 war.
Regarding what the Zionists would have done in WW II, there’s no need to speculate because we know what evil they did: in addition to causing the Holocaust, the Zionists lobbied governments against allowing in Jews to their countries. Then you have the Zionist Kastner SR”Y who lied to the million Jews of Hungary to keep them docile instead of them overrunning the few Nazis there and/or escaping a few miles away, causing them to be sent to Hitler’s death camps blissfully unaware.
SQUARE_ROOT:
Why do you pollute these boards with Zionist mistakes/propaganda and nonsense?Regarding the mistakes/propaganda:
First of all, historical fact is that the Zionist victory in their war in 1967 (as in the other times) were not “miraculous” but conventional military victories.
Next, you cannot quote where the Satmar Rav allegedly claimed that the Zionists’ victory in their war in 1967 was “miracles from the Satan”. The reason you cannot quote that is that the Satmar Rav never said/wrote that. If you learn his sefarim on the topic, you will see that the Satmar Rav wrote that the Zionist victory then was, as mentioned above, a conventional military victory.Regarding the nonsense:
First, Rav Yaakov told the Satmar Rav after learning from the latter’s sefarim that – since the latter had written that it would be worth all the time and effort to publish his sefer if even only one Jew is saved from the false belief in the Zionists – he, the Satmar Rav, had indeed convinced Rav Yaakov.Second, you wrote:
“Reb Yaakov [Kamenetsky] felt that but for the creation of the State in 1948 [CE] a million Jews would have become assimilated as a result of the despair that followed the Holocaust and attributed the renascence [rebirth] of Soviet Jewry to the miraculous Israeli military victory in 1967.”1. The Zionists caused and contributed to the Holocaust, as is obvious to anyone who has read the history, even if he most were unaware of that all those decades ago. Therefore, there would not have been any despair after the Holocaust because there would not have been a Holocaust to cause that despair.
2. The Zionist victory was not miraculous, as mentioned above.
3. Both the Brisker Rav and Satmar Rav stated definitely that Moshiach would have come if not for the Zionists in 1948. So, that would have been infinitely better inspiration for the Soviet Jews of the time.
4. The Zionist “State” has shmaded at least three generations of Jews, including many of those Jews from the FSU. The Zionist pseudo-State has over 7 million Jews. Around half of those identify as secular. That means that there are at least 3 million Jews there now who are victims of Zionist shmad. Around a third consider themselves “Traditional”, which means the number shmaded rises to easily 5 million Jews. Clearly (besides for it being obvious from the Torah), Hashem did not and does not want that Zionist idol “State” no matter how much “inspiration” it supposedly provided.
yankel berel:
When it comes to the evil, idolatry and heresy of Zionism, there is indeed only one color: black.
Your assertion would also apply to the Holocaust, the destruction of our batei mikdash and all other calamities that Jews suffered throughout history. By your “logic”, some people think it’s all terrible, but they’re missing out, and it’s all really “gray”, not “black and white”, according to you.Indeed, the Holocaust was a contributing factor to the establishment of the Zionist “State”. So Zionists would see the Holocaust as “gray”, then.
No. The Torah has laws of what is evil and what is good. Zionism (and the Holocaust, which the Zionists caused), is evil, idolatry and heresy, according to all. Period.
Kuvult:
“Unlike some others who still live in a bygone era and cannot deal with reality, he once told me “the state of Israel is a good thing, where would Jews have gone were there no State of Israel”.”It is a chillul Hashem and bizayon of Rav Yaakov to conjure up statements he made over half a century ago before all the Zionist propaganda around their war in 1967 (and earlier ones) were known to be lies once the historical record was opened.
Most were unaware then that it was the wicked Zionists who both caused and contributed to the Holocaust. Were it not for the Zionists, there would not have been a Holocaust. Were it not for the Zionists, there would have been many more places to which Jews could have gone, because the Zionists had lobbied governments against accepting Jews into their countries because, as the Zionists stated then, during the Holocaust, “Rak biDam tihyeh lanu haAretz”. Therefore, there never would have been the concern of “where would Jews have gone”, if not for the wicked Zionists.
These facts are admitted by even the Zionists by now, who still maintain that Zionism is above all else, including Jewish lives, but this was not nearly as apparent back then.
Evalimoshavlo:
Typical response of a Zionist idolater, spewing nonsense insults in the fact of facts (and a little Torah) that don’t work for the Zionist idol.Zionist delusion gets stranger by the day – though it is consistently heretical and idolatrous, of course, as that is Zionism.
The Zionist paradise is the least safest place on Planet Earth that is inhabited by Jews. It is under “existential threat”, as we read in the news whenever there is any noise about Iran. A standard feature of all homes built there is a “safe room”. Oh, and the very purpose of that “State” is to shmad Jews, and they forcibly draft not only males but females too (to shmad them and their future children and to get young people to start their lives off in impurity).
Under President Trump’s leadership, the USA is getting less woke, not more. It also dropped
Look up the rankings of Canada, Israel, the UK and the USA and the rankings of other countries near those, according to the Global Peace Index (GPI) 2024 and other safety indices. You might find something like:
– Canada is one of the safest countries, ranking 1.449 on the GPI scale. Countries with similar safety levels include Malaysia (1.427) and Portugal (1.372).
– United Kingdom has a GPI score of 1.703, placing it near France (2.088) and Germany (1.542).
– United States ranks 2.622, making it less safe than Canada and the UK. Countries with similar scores include Brazil (2.589) and Mexico (2.778).
– Israel has a GPI score of 3.115, ranking lower in safety compared to many Western nations. It is near Russia (3.249) and Ukraine (3.280).But there is another more important point: if you believe that it’s only a matter of time until everyone will need to move to the Zionist paradise (before Mashiach, of course, as Zionism will be history by then), then you might be a heretic and an idolater. G-d has decreed that we will live in countries around the world until He decides to send Mashiach. We say this in our Mussaf prayers, and we just read Shir HaShirim on Pesach where G-d informs us of the famous oaths which the “Religious Zionists” have failed miserably in their pathetic attempts to disprove their validity and/or applicability.
If you believe instead that everyone will have to move to the Zionist State, then you are obviously denying that G-d runs His world including the galus in which He placed His children and instead attributing power to this idol “State”.
simcha613:
Normal people in normal countries support their country’s armed forces and want them to succeed, even if they themselves do not join those armed forces. There is nothing puzzling about that.The Zionist paradise is not normal, of course, in that it and its army’s main purpose is to change Jews and Judaism into godless and idolatrous Zionists and Zionism. But the Jews living in the Zionist paradise still want their armed forces to succeed in protecting the country and to return home safely, like elsewhere.
So, in other words, the Zionists have no answers, as always, because the Zionist idol is simply indefensible.
But one Zionist here quotes Rabbi SF Mendlowitz who held that some Zionists were “tinokosh sheNishbu”. Plenty of Zionists were factually not that. For example, the first Zionist Dear Leader gave a (blasphemous and Zionist, of course) “chumash shiur” to his fellow heretics. He quoted from Tehillim in their pathetic excuse for a parliament.
Regardless, the greatest Torah sages who lived in E”Y including the Brisker Rav, the Chazon Ish, and many others both in E”Y and outside it, all condemned the Zionists as the wicked heretics and destroyers of G-d’s Torah and people which the Zionists obviously were and unfortunately remain so.
The Brisker Rav noted that the “State” the Zionists have achieved is the “greatest triumph of the satan since the sin of the golden calf” – and that one was a very, very big triumph as it reverted the world to the post-Eitz HaDaas status, as it is today. He also noted that the Zionists cannot possibly improve the lot of the Jews, even if they wanted to do so (which of course is not their goal) because the Torah is our lifeblood. Anything that does not fit with the Torah cannot possibly help Jews.
Duvidf:
The sad reality is that the Zionists have fooled many into denying that conquering the land is forbidden while in galus. Nobody, including Satmar, ever took that out of the Torah CH”V, and you are slandering them by stating that. As well, even Satmar do live in E”Y.SQUARE_ROOT:
The fact is that this quote is of course accurate: “Zionism is an extremely strong force of assimilation.” The entire purpose of Zionism is to change Jews and Judaism from a Torah-based people of faith into an idolatrous and godless land-based gentile nation. As well, comparing the percentage of Jews vs gentiles in each country, the intermarriage rate of Torah-observant Jews in America is basically non-existent despite Jews being only a very, very small minority, while there are multiple organizations only in the Zionist paradise that rescue Jewish girls from being “married” to Arabs in their hell-hole Arab villages and the secular Jews still go to Sweden or elsewhere to find gentile “wives”.Regarding “coming back”, only in Israel does the government poison their citizens to hate Judaism, while elsewhere the non-observant Jews are largely simply ignorant and certainly do come back when exposed to the beauty of Torah.
Evalimoshavlo:
G-d has commanded us to be loyal to the nations and not to take any part of the holy land prior to Mashiach’s arrival. G-d has also commanded us to keep His Torah. The Zionists deny all of that and convince Jews (especially those under their control) to deny all of that as well. That is indeed our worst enemy.Chaim87:
Stories of Rav Aharon dealing with him as needed are not relevant to the facts of who he was and the damage he caused (still ongoing) to American Jewry. In this very thread, people still bring up his “Kol Dodi Dofek” piece as if its halacha liMoshe miSinai when in fact it’s actually baseless and emotional at best. Regardless, it’s clear that Rabbi Soloveichik had tremendous influence, and the gedolim acted accordingly.But if you want to tell over stories, you could tell over the one about giyus banos, when Rav Aharon tried to get Rabbi Dr. Soloveichik to condemn the wicked Zionists for trying to shmad all the girls and therefore destroy Klal Yisrael. Rav Aharon said imagine that in this room were not you, but your grandfather Rav Chaim Brisker and not me but my father-in-law Rav Isser Zalman, etc. What would your grandfather say. Rabbi Dr. Soloveichik would have none of that and wished him a good day and left.
Always_Ask_Questions:
Rav Aharon Kotler, who brought actual unadulterated Torah to America, stated that Rabbi Dr. Soloveichik was responsible for “all the tuma in America”.DaMoshe:
Chovevei was a non-Zionist movement; it was concerned merely with living in the land, and doing so apolitically. Even that notion had plenty of rabbinic objectors including Rabbi SR Hirsch.Your take is factually inaccurate regarding the views of the gedolim and the Zionist idol “State”. For example, the Brisker Rav stated explicitly that even if the Chofetz Chaim were to be its Prime Minister, it would still be forbidden to have that “State”. He also noted that the Zionist “State” was the greatest achievement of the satan since the golden calf. The Chazon Ish held the “State” was a gezeirah raah that would ultimately be nullified. He estimated it would last for a matter of decades.
The whole “MO” meme about Satmar being a daas yachid is also ridiculous in its implication. Satmar is a daas yachid in certain minor matters like (forbidding) visiting the kosel, Israelis voting in their elections and the like. The core heresy and idolatry of Zionism and the disaster that was and is its “State” was and is obvious and acknowledged by all gedolim.
Actually, the Torah tells us to not join with evildoers even to do good. That certainly applies to the wicked Zionists who persist and compound their evil (in shmading Jews and destroying the Torah) very much in today’s times, too, not just a century ago.
DrYidd:
First, the Zionists both caused and contributed to the Holocaust, even if Rabbi Dr. Soloveichik was not aware of that and the Zionists continue to cover that up and lie about it. Therefore, the conclusion you mentioned is obviously the opposite one that one would logically draw.Second, Rabbi Dr. Soloveichik’s Kol Dodi Dofek is flawed, at best, using specious and emotional arguments. But it’s even worse than that, because it uses “signs” to replace Torah law. We don’t make up signs that tell us to go against the Torah. Either way, his KDD is not relevant to Judaism.
lakewhut:
It’s not “even if”; Rabbi Dr. Soloveichik openly admitted that, and it is simple reality. As well, the reason their parents aren’t frum is Zionist shmad, and that shmad is ongoing, too. That seems to get lost in the whole excitement about the “teshuva” movement there.AAQ:
Did you see any suggestion like that? Why go off-topic with nonsense? The point is that when the Zionists invaded they shattered the peace enjoyed by Jews in the Middle East (and caused the Holocaust) and lit on fire the entire region due to their Big Lie that they represent Jews when, in reality, it is only G-d, the Torah and its sages that are representative of Jews.yankel berel:
The point is that, as the Brisker Rav told the Chazon Ish, it is true that gezeirah raah avida liHiBatla, but that applies only when it is recognized as such. That recognition is lacking, even after many decades and unspeakable and ongoing destruction due to Zionism.“… when did the Greater Yeshiva World become decidedly not Zionist?”
The greater yeshiva world has obviously never been Zionist because Zionism is idolatry and heresy and a massive rebellion against G-d.
I find it amusing (but sad) that the Zionists are so enamored by their idol that they cannot possibly consider how any political situation could work other than their Zionist idol in power there. As mentioned, the simplest political solution would be to implement what the original Balfour Declaration had intended: Christian political control of the area, with local Jewish (and liHavdil Arab//Muslim) religious affairs for themselves.
AAQ:
You’re totally inventing those ideas.Had the Zionists not invaded, the entire area would have remained peaceful, and Jews would have been able to continue to live in not only Palestine but also in Arab countries in even better conditions than they already were living, as the world “modernized”.
This is besides for examples like the Yemenites who had been living in Yemen – and were religious, too – since Bayis Rishon! But when the Zionists got their evil paws on the Yemenites, the evil Zionists shmaded them and did world-class terrible things to the Yemenites, their “fellow Jews”.
Palestine, in particular, would have been Western/Christian owned, with local religious control for Jews (and, liHavdil, Arabs). But the Zionists ruined it all, on every level.
provaxx and other Zionists:
Given that Zionism is the greatest rebellion against G-d by far, and is therefore far more anti-Jewish than anything out there, anyone who criticizes the Zionists are actually pro-G-d and pro-Judaism. It is the Zionists that are sonei Yisrael.SQUARE_ROOT:
As a Zionist idolater who also probably doesn’t even know that the Satmar Rav wrote sefarim, let alone having ever opened any of those, it would be silly for you to attempt to assess the greatness of the Satmar Rav. The truth is that since idolatry is irrational, it is Zionists and other idolaters who are the ones self-afflicted with mental illness, R”L L”A.You claimed that Satmar advocates “not only isolation from non-Jews, but also total isolation from all Jews who are not Satmar.”
This is, of course, false. Satmar runs a self-sufficient community, which is indeed admirable, and they very much care to avoid joining with reshaim as per the Torah and as expounded by Chazal. Many other communities also “do their own thing” though not with the success that Satmar is blessed by G-d in doing so. The “Modern Orthodox” community and Chabad are two examples. However, Satmar helps everyone, not just Satmar. If anyone G-d forbid has needed to be in a major hospital and has seen the Satmar Bikkur Cholim room, where you have Satmar women – with ten (or more) of their own children – who go and cook and prepare – and then deliver to those hospitals – food for those in need there, no matter the background of the recipients, then they know that your hateful statement is false.Yankel Berel:
It’s in Al HaGeulah, if memory serves.Regarding your questions, including:
“Can you [honestly of course] tell me what happened to the innocent Jewish boys under British Mandate Protection, in Hebron and all over the Holy Land , in the 1930’s ?Thats how much you can rely on the UN …. ”
The Zionists invaded the holy land decades prior to the ’30s, and stirred up all that mayhem there in the Holy Land against the wishes of the Jews there, not to mention the Holocaust and the rest. The Chevron Pogrom was a result of Jabotinsky’s “Betar” group and more… In general, during the British Mandate period, the wicked Zionists fought and terrorized both the Arabs and the British – who did indeed send their children overseas to give a home to the Zionists (whom they mistakenly assumed were representing Jews). This is in stark contrast to the real Jews who had cordial relationships with the locals long before the Zionists invaded the holy land around the turn-of-the-century.
But I am not claiming that the Satmar Rav meant peacekeepers. I assume he meant a transfer of sovereignty. The truth is that, as the British stated after the Balfour Declaration, the Zionists read much more into the Balfour Declaration than the British intended – and had written. In that Declaration, they wrote that their Sovereign wants to make in Palestine – a “Home” for the Jews – not a “Sovereignty” for the Zionists – which will not negatively impact the rights of other peoples (Arabs) living there.
What should have happened is that Moshiach should have come, if not for the Zionists fooling people into praying for their idol “State”. Until that point, what should have happened is that Palestine would have become an overseas territory of some sovereign nation (UK or other), with essentially national councils for Jews and (liHavdil) Arabs for them to each handle their own internal affairs.
The truth is that Jews live far more safely in countries all around the world under gentile rulers/democracies than they do under the wicked Zionists.
The Satmar Rav wrote that if the Zionists were to go to the UN then they would figure out a way (which obviously would not include risk to Jews R”L).
5TResident:
In short, if you are a Zionist, then it is very understandable why you are confused.The root cause of antisemitism is, of course, assimilation. Zionism is an extremely strong force of assimilation. Its very purpose is to change Jews and Judaism into Zionists and Zionism – without G-d and Torah, of course.
(Over the past few years, particularly since the snakes at “Eretz HaKodesh” began spewing their lies and propaganda, Zionism has unfortunately infiltrated the frum world like never before. This is very, very, concerning, Hashem Yishmereinu!)
When the Zionist paradise was founded (in 1948), the Brisker Rav became physically ill. The Chazon Ish tried to make him feel better by invoking the Chazal that a Gezeira raah avida liHiBatla, meaning that a bad decree will at some point be nullified. The Brisker Rav answered him that this is only true when people recognize this bad decree as such. But if they think it is a good thing, then this dictum does not apply.
So, if you care to stop antisemitism (and to make G-d happy), then perhaps you could spread the word in your locale that Zionism is not Judaism (for starters – it’s actually its polar opposite), and that people should be very clear that, even if they support the Zionist paradise politically, they must still fully recognize that the Zionist paradise is shmad and a disaster for Jews (because that is simply the facts on every level – both spiritual and physical) and, most importantly, that it is only a Zionist entity, not a Jewish entity. Then, we will surely merit the nullification of all bad decrees CH”V and the coming of Moshiach BB”A.
Seems like YWN censored my prior comment with multiple responses to the above. Oh well.
philosopher:
I’m glad you detected the sarcasm. But, no, it’s not “beating around the bush” at all. Gedolim have stated long ago that it is forbidden to vote for toeiva, etc. But all of that, forbidden and disgusting as that is, pales in comparison to the abomination that is joining the WZO. Compare the two party platforms, Democrat party vs WZO Jerusalem Program. Also, the Democrat party is a government party in the US government, which is at its core a law-making institution rather than an ideological one. The WZO, on the other hand, is a heretical ideological organization. Therefore, no Jew has any business joining that organization.lakewhut:
The very slight difference is that by voting republican, democrat, independent, green or anything else you aren’t joining a century-plus years old heretical ideological organization (WZO) that all gedolim across the board for over a century absolutely forbade joining, including Rav Elyashiv who banned the Shas party of the Israeli government from doing so about 15 years ago.anon1m0us:
Funny thing when heretics blame the Holocaust on the frum for following G-d’s Torah, and ignore the documented historical responsibility of the Zionists in both causing and contributing to the Holocaust.No, it affected all Jews in Europe, not just frum. In fact, much of Europe was assimilated by then (thanks to Zionism and other -isms). People arrived in Auschwitz singing hatikva.
ZSK:
It is not complicated unless you are affected Zionist idolatry. No, we do not have those things.
Mitzrayim was anyways different because we did not yet have the Torah.Jews are an “am” as in “people”, meaning a group of people, who have in common exactly one thing only: the Torah. Not culture, not land and not language. No, Jews are not a nation.
For example, Syrian Jews have a rather different culture (and language) than do Hungarian Jews, for example. And the land (until Mashiach comes) is no different than Matza on Pesach. As even Rabbi Dr. Soloveitchik noted, “EY is one mitzva among the mitzvos”.
SQUARE_ROOT:
Don’t get too excited. Even if he did say it, that would apply only to the oath of not rebelling against the nations. It would obviously not apply to dechikas haKeitz and the rest.Yankel Berel:
You can make fun, but the truth is that you are defending the indefensible and also lying/mocking about me providing no sources. Rav Elchonon writes it straight out in Kovetz Maamarim, which I believe I did mention on this very thread, for example. The Chazon Ish writes it multiple times in his sefarim, too. Etc. Leitzanus is permitted only to go against A”Z (like Zionism), not to promote it as you are doing.ubiquitin:
I do not recall asking that question. I did, however, point out above that Rav Chaim Vital was not talking about these oaths, as the Satmar Rav explains.AAQ:
An “Am” and “Goy” is a people, meaning a group of people with something in common. In our case, that would be the Torah, including (for men) having been brought into “briso shel Avraham Avinu”. That’s what that means, not anything to do with land, culture, language, and the other trappings of “Nationalism” (including Zionism).Let’s try to clarify. Take, for example, a nation called France. Its citizens, whether or not the actually live in that country, are called French. France is a Nation, in the Nationalist sense of the word, like Italy and Spain and all the rest. What makes each of those a nation? The answer is that they have a common land, language, culture etc.
Now try to apply that to Jews. You can’t, because Jews do not have a common land, language and culture. Yes, E”Y is G-d’s holy land from which He expelled us and to which He will return us and in which we can still do mitzvos that cannot be done elsewhere. But it is not our land, certainly not in the sense of France to the French, et al. In other words, the land does not define us; the Torah does. Same with the language: yes, we have a lashon haKodesh in common, with G-d created the world, but that is not what defines us, and, on a practical level, not the language that we use daily, unlike Italiano for Italians, et al. Even more so with culture: there is no Torah-defined “culture” other than following the Torah, like being holy and keeping separate from the nations. We do not have a Torah-defined arts, plays, favorite outdoor activities, etc. all of which are part of a normal national culture.
Zionism has unfortunately largely changed all that by claiming to be the replacement theology for Judaism and convincing even many religious Jews that Judaism is just a nationality (like Graetz proposed centuries ago), and that the Nation-State (and language and culture, etc.) of that Nationality is Israel. Religion is your own business, in the Zionist faith, unless (oddly enough) you subscribe to another religion. But, in the Zionist faith, it is the Nation (Israel) and Nation-State (Israel) and its culture, language, etc. that define you, not the Torah. Every Zionist believes that, even those that put on Tefillin. That is how they write nonsense like everything the State of Israel does is holy, etc.
yankel berel:
You pathetically imitate my post while bringing zero sources in attempting to defend your idol.
The fact is that Zionism is absolutely both heresy and idolatry, even without the gedolim saying so. But they did say it: the Brisker Rav wrote that Zionism is a kefirah in the entire Torah, not just the oaths (which are also brought by poskim liHalacha, as it happens), as did Rav Elchonon and the Chazon Ish and all the rest.Just in case you actually care for logic which you brought up – every form of Zionism believes in at least two things:
1. Judaism is a Nationality, not (only) a religion, and Zionism is the current manifestation of that Nationality..
2. The Zionist “State” is the Nation-State of that religion.The Torah vehemently disagrees.
You are beyond silly for pretending otherwise.
You can engage in silly disagreements over the nuances, positions and tactics between the Satmar Rav and the rest of the gedolim.
But it is indisputable that Zionism is idolatry, heresy and (therefore) of course against the Torah, despite the nonsense cranked out by Zionists of all types, like the OP posted from one of their “rabbis” here.Just drop the idolatry already, and stop with the abysmally stupid meme that “everyone but Satmar” holds of Zionism, when the reality is that everyone (including Satmar) holds that Zionism is idolatry and heresy.
Koifer BIkur:
The drivel posted in the OP is a disgrace, even to an am haAretz, let alone to a rabbi/tenth-generation Yerushalmi/whatever. But that’s what Zionism and other idolatrous forces naturally do: they make people invent the silliest things in an attempt to defend their idolatry which is, of course, indefensible. Throughout history, there were a few rabbis, far greater than anyone known to be around today, who wrote things even more anti-Torah than the OP’s drivel.yankel berel:
Nobody “shlugged up” the Satmar Rav (though the “Religious Zionist”=Idolaters have made pathetic attempts to do so), and the gedolim also agreed the Satmar Rav on the core issues and more. They differed with him only on minor things like voting in Israeli elections and visiting the Kosel.Of course, none of that is in any way relevant to the nonsense that the OP spewed in attempting to defend Zionism, as Zionism is simply indefensible.
HaLeiVi:
None of them are valid, of course.SQUARE_ROOT:
Why don’t you just hang out on “Religious Zionist” websites rather than polluting this one with more “Religious Zionist” nonsense that is heretical and idolatrous?Aviner’s “answers” (and the rest) should embarrass any “Religious Zionist”.
1. Obviously, the only oath that would not apply with the nations’ permission, if true, is the oath about rebelling against the nations. That permission has zero to do with the other oaths, like aliyah baChoma (ascending en masse) and dechikas haKeitz, taking political rule like the Zionists did. The Balfour Declaration was essentially rescinded, or at least greatly curtailed, by the “White Papers” that followed. Moreover, the reality is that the Zionists terrorized and fought both the British and the Arabs and also then founded their “State” against the express will of the UN. So, the Zionists clearly violated that oath, too.2. This “answer” is even bigger nonsense, only promoted by Zionists like Rabbi Dr. Soloveitchik, Rabbi Kook and Rav Teichtal. But there is no source for their emotional inventions, and (of course) there is no gadol who agreed to their respective nonsense inventions.
3. The Satmar Rav addresses this one, too. It means when it gives its fruits in a supernatural way.
4. Ditto. The oaths are for our benefit, not mutual. He brings numerous examples. The Rambam told the Teimanim then that the oaths are in force despite the terrible oppression they were under. And even if it were mutual, which no gadol approves, that would apply only to the oath of “rebelling”, not the other oaths, like aliya baChoma and dechikas haKeitz. The Zionists flagrantly violated all the Oaths, of course.
5. This is nonsense.
6. Interesting how, as brought in today’s daf, the midrash notes that shevet Efraim who left Egypt early were slaughtered in the desert because they violated the oaths by leaving Egypt early. And there were many other examples of non-Babylonians who were punished for violating the oaths, including a Zionist favorite: Ben Koziva, which caused the spilling of oceans of Jewish blood, far more than even the Holocaust.
7. The Satmar Rav addresses this, too. That was not about these Oaths.
8. There are at least three oaths. Whichever oath you claim applies to only the Temple, obviously has zero to do with the other oaths.
9. The gemara actually uses the oaths as halacha, and the poskim bring it down on the spot, as the Satmar Rav points out.
10. This is a popular Zionist meme. First of all, you have zero source for that assertion. Regardless, aggada clearly shows us what G-d wants, even if it’s written in a deep way. As well, please see #9 and the other points, too.
Based on all this nonsense, “Religious Zionists” violate the oaths which has unimaginably severe punishments associated with those violations.
PS. That’s totally irrelevant. Individual Jews can choose to live in Eretz Yisrael and, if that Mitzva is in fact still available, then they will fulfill that. But that’s for individuals.
So please don’t waste time with “Religious Zionist” nonsense.
Regarding your personal comment, you have zero basis to even think you could argue with a gadol like the Satmar Rav. To try to help you understand, though, I would humbly submit that although Rav Miller points out that there was indeed assimilation and chilul Shabbos in pre-war Europe, Zionism (which started in the late 1800s) was one of the main reasons for that, as Zionism is all about changing Jews and Judaism into godless Nationalists and Zionism. So, if one believed in Zionism, then, in addition to worshiping idols, by definition they did not believe in the Torah. If you didn’t believe in the Torah, then nothing would stop them from doing anything against the Torah, including intermarriage and violating Shabbos. Until Hashem decided to save His people from being lost.
As well, you’re arguing against basic facts. “Ani mattis es besarchem” is the punishment listed for violating the oaths. That’s obviously what happened in the Holocaust. It was literally open season on Jews like never in history.
So please revert to actual Judaism rather than “Religious Zionism” and all its nonsense and heresy and idolatry.
somejewiknow:
It’s not really that the “rabbis” of “Religious Zionism” are fraudulent. It’s that “Religious Zionism” is “a sea of heresy mixed in with a drop of Torah” (Brisker Rav) or “Religion and idolatry biShituf” (Rav Elchonon). They’re just preaching that religion.Questionable:
All the idolaters are trying to justify their genuflecting to their idol. But we all know that it has always been forbidden and always will be until that idol too shall turn to dust.Rocky:
If you do the research as to what EH has done the past five years, you would know that they obviously lied to Rav Gurwicz, just as they essentially admitted they deceived Rav Chaim. See the .com site harehbetzba, which has a well-written PDF on all this. Rav Aharon Feldman has stated that Rav Shmuel Kaminetsky never was happy with the supposed heter from Rav Chaim, especially because they wouldn’t provide it in writing, and reiterated in 2022, two years after the voting abomination five years ago, that he does not support voting.There are zero gedolim supporting violating a century+ of wall-to-wall mesorah absolutely prohibiting joining the WZO even to save lives. See the booklet there.
ZSK:
TiDE is distinctly different from MO TuMA. For one, TiDE has austritt, as Rav Schwab has pointed out. More importantly, it does not elevate anything else as having intrinsic value, unlike the idolatry of TuMA.Idolatrous Zionism has been a part of MO’s (idolatrous) identity since its founder started it. He was the head of Mizrachi, as you know, and has published idolatrous nonsense about Zionism including his “Kol dodi dofek”, which any card-carrying “Religious Zionist” would hold of. No, MO Zionism is not just saying some prayers (which are themselves problematic/heretical, in some cases, as it happens) and sending their kids to learn in Israel. You certainly know better than that, as do others, incidentally.
Your contention about RZ being just about working with what’s there is so absurd that surely even you don’t really believe that. The “Religious” Zionists are generally the most fanatical Zionists of all, much more so than the “Secular” ones. Either way, Rav Elchonon and all the others (including the Brisker Rav who lived in then-Palestine and then also post-State as well,) noted that “Religious Zionism” is idolatry and heresy.
Zionism has two basic assertions that all Zionists believe.
1. The heresy that Jews are a nation like all others, with a common land, language, and culture, as opposed to being a Torah-based people which is the truth.
2. That the “State” of “Israel” is the Nation-State of that mythical Nation.