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mdd, who says you are right in assessing their motives (maybe it was financial, family or some other reasons) and, even if you are correct that this is “obviously” their thinking, who says that they are correct when they made that assumption?
The bottom line, regardless, (go ahead and call this “strident” and “propaganda”) is that since 1948 alone (besides for the pre-1948 abominations of Zionism), tens of thousands of Jews (and their future “olamos”) were taken from this world because of the Zionist State, whether they were in the IDF and died fighting for this idol, or were civilian victims of terror.
Bomb shelters have always been normal features of Israeli houses and public buildings. To protect its borders, Israel relies on “security fences” and millions of dollars of anti-missile batteries (not to mention the danger to men on the ground). But Israel still can’t come close to guaranteeing its citizens’ safety. Just tonight, there is another YWN story about this:
(Yet your response is to ask about France and Russia?)
The only way you can honestly address this issue of all those innocent lives lost and families destroyed R”L L”A due to Zionism, is by claiming it’s “worth it” in order to strengthen the State. Even some very esteemed “religious Zionists” agree, when they posit that “lichaora” those lives lost were worthwhile for this reason.
(This is an example of the avoda zara of Zionism: to attempt to halachically condone human sacrifices for the State of Israel, when the Torah’s first priority, even at the expense of mitzvos, and almost without exception, is preserving human life.)
May Hashem keep all His children safe and protect them from all harm CH”V.
ROB, leaving aside your typical Zionist lies and propaganda, your motzi shem ra on gedolim is despicable. While you have the right to keep your head buried in the sand and believe the Zionist propaganda you can’t get enough of, this doesn’t allow you to attack gedolim.
So, to repeat, read what your beloved Zionists admit about their role in the Holocaust:
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/yom-hashoahany-thoughts/page/2
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/yemenite-jews-and-operation-magic-carpet
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/yom-hoatzmaut-and-behab/page/4
Your “remark” about alter-ego really should not be dignified with a response, but it does bring up a point. Kol HaPoseil BiMumo Poseil; it is you who are a Zionist Yes-Man. I, on the other hand, gave credit to Health as credit was due, just as I have credited other posters by name as well. Please at least leave out the childish remarks.
ROB, I don’t recall being named spokesperson for any group, so I don’t know what your accusation of “main apologist” means in this case, but, as is clear from your previous Zionist yes-man posts, your reality vis-a-vis Zionism seems to be subjective to your wishes rather than an objective reflection of the facts, so I suppose this fits right in with whatever dream-land that might be.
Ayain the other threads where Health pointed out your errors; there were a few humble responses to you from myself as well.
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/yemenite-jews-and-operation-magic-carpet
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/yom-hashoahany-thoughts/page/2
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/yom-hoatzmaut-and-behab/page/4
Avi K, it’s interesting you mention “forgeries” and “Rabbi Kasher” in the same sentence and NOT mention…Rabbi Kasher’s forgeries. So, other than his sources, what sources do you have that can quote someone who can hold a candle to the likes of the Chofetz Chaim and all those others and more?
mdd, you wrote:
“Plus, they live there without persecution”.
Who lives where without persecution? Surely you can’t mean Jews in Israel?
Zionists have endangered (or worse) both the lives and faith of Jews worldwide, and especially in Israel, since well before they established Israel and even more so ever since 1948.
“Rak biDam tihye lanu haAretz” is what they lived for (and had no problem letting “the old and infirm” die for rather than divert any funds, intended to be used to create the State, to save those Jews trapped in Hitler YM”S’s deadly grasp; even the Zionists admit this).
Charlie:
I would not at all be surprised considering:
their respective positions on college, and
the following:
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/becoming-chareidi-or-mo/page/3
mdd, those other deaths are not relevant to the discussion here, and, regarding your next post, the many issues of Zionism are not “shailos from the 1930s”.
People still believe in this Avoda Zara of Zionism, even with the benefit of hindsight of decades of history, including the tens of thousands of Jews who died, some rather horrifically, for this idol of Zionism. Not only are so many people fooled by Zionism as an ideology, but they even more obscenely graft it onto, lihavdil, our holy and pure religion.
If Zionists of all stripes (secular, “religious”, whatever) would admit that their religion is either Zionism or part-Zionism/part-Judaism, and not authentic Judaism, and would announce to the entire world that they are not representing Jews but, instead, Zionists, then there would not be much to discuss about it going forward.
But as long as people still mistakenly believe that this (or any) avoda zara of Zionism is permissible, the “shaila” (or, more accurately, the need to explain the “terutz”, that Zionism is Avoda Zara) still is relevant.
mdd, what part of the Brisker shita does “nobody” hold like? Is it the part about not taking any money from the government, perhaps?
The Chazon Ish, Rav Elchonon, the Chofetz Chaim, Rav Aharon Kotler, and many others held the same regarding Zionism and the State in general. See also this thread:
Regarding the “locals”, think of the many gedolim who were asked about and/or encountered far worse behavior from their respective locals and knew better than to make it WORSE by violating the 3 oaths and attempting to make a state in Eretz Yisrael (as seems to have happened in Israel). Rambam’s Igeres Teiman comes to mind, for example.
Sam2, I’m not sure what site you’re referring to, but that wasn’t what I read and we can’t post links.
Charlie, despite the varying degrees of respect they did accord to the rabbis you mentioned, they still held firmly that those views were wrong. But since you mentioned it: I believe it was Rav Aharon Kotler who said that Rabbi Soloveichik destroyed an entire generation. In the case of Rabbi Kook, he happened to hold a political position so if anyone wanted anything from him then they had to respect him. Regardless, the point is that they held that Zionist theology is absolutely wrong irrespective of any respect accorded to its proponents.
ROB, you’re the one perpetrating a big lie. The Brisker Rov, Chazon Ish, Rav Elchonon Wasserman among many others, some as recorded in their respective seforim (e.g. Ikvesa DiMishicha) were absolutely opposed to Zionism and called it the Avoda Zara/heresy that it is.
You’re falsely claiming that is my “mission”. In fact, I have no interest in denigrating anyone. But Zionism is not, lihavdil, Judaism.
yytz, this is absurd. Were it not for Zionism and the State of Israel, there would have been no victims of Arab terror and no fallen/wounded IDF soldiers. Whether or not some of them might have suffered a misfortune, CH”V, in any country, is irrelevant and doesn’t come close to accounting for terror victims and fallen/wounded IDF soldiers.
Some of them also might have remained in their country of origin, like the Yemenites did since Bayis Rishon with their Mesorah intact until the Zionists shmaded them and threw their sefarim and kisvei yad overboard as soon as they arrived in Israel. Not to mention their kids.
Come on.
mdd, as the Brisker Rov, if I am not mistaken, wrote, the Zionists don’t shmad in order to have a State; they need a State because they want to shmad. Shmad is the essence of Zionism.
Anti-religious sentiment has nothing to do with it; their goal, in which they have unfortunately been somewhat successful, is to CH”V replace Judaism with Zionism.
Sam2, a person’s choices do affect his life. If one chooses to play in traffic, it’s not logical to claim that Hashem had already pre-ordained that time as his exit time from this Earth. But being blown up in a cafeteria by a savage suicide bomber or the savage who invaded the Fogel family’s HY”D house makes those deaths much worse even if you claim that this was the pre-ordained time.
The 6-day war, contrary to Zionist propaganda, was not “nissim geluyim”. Google “CIA 6 day war”; it was a “sure thing”.
Regardless, the shmad and horrific deaths, CH”V, in Israel, were all totally unnecessary and only due to Zionism.
yytz:
In Israel, there are plenty of Jewish girls “marrying” Arabs, where these poor girls then go through hell and have to be saved, not to mention the many Russian and other halachic non-Jews. So I’m not so sure it’s 90%.
Regardless, who is to say that these Israelis would not have married Jews? After all, it was the Zionists who shmaded them and they were, for the most part, originally religious before coming to Israel. So they probably would have married Jews regardless. American kiruv is explosive and far-reaching and, BE”H, those intermarriage numbers will decrease.
However, your assertion that any of this would “make up” for the 25,000 who died or were savagely murdered is not one that I agree with at all. Al pi derech HaTevah, every one of those Jews would still be alive and their families would not be grieving over their untimely deaths, R”L L”A. This is a direct result of Zionism and their is no justifying any of those deaths, CH”V.
Strangely, religious Zionists, from some of their top halachic decisors on down, believe that (“lichaora”) the Torah condones these human sacrifices to their eigel of a State.
You’re claiming these Jewish neshamos wouldn’t have existed without the medinah; I disagree, and, at best, you’re speculating. Hashem could have arranged a different way for these neshamos to come to this world, if He had wanted to do so. But to condone shmad for any reason, including speculating that there are more Jews as a result, is not acceptable, in my humble opinion.
Look at all the Jews who are and were in Israel who are lost to their heritage because the Zionists shmaded them and continue to do so. None of this would have happened without Zionism.
Lastly, Secular Ideology and Shmad are separate entities. The United States cannot establish a national religion and its society is somewhat secular. That’s partly why we have our own schools, etc. But that pales in comparison to shmad, where a “Jewish” government and State exist only to change Jews into Zionists. This is unique to Israel, and B”H, not at all the case outside Israel. Rav Moshe famously called the United States a Medina Shel Chesed; we are free to practice our faith and even respected for doing so, unlike in Israel.
ROB:
The likes of the Brisker Rav, Chazon Ish, Chafetz Chaim, Rav Elchonon Wasserman and others called Zionism the Avoda Zara/apikorsus that it is. Rav Elchonon HY”D also called “”Religious” Zionism” religion and avoda zara bishutfus.
There are no other valid shitos in this regard; Zionism is diametrically opposed to, lihavdil, the Torah. You choose to fool yourself and align yourself with outdated notions of European Nationalism and graft the same on to, lihavdil, our holy Torah, when, in addition to the great Rabbis who opposed Zionism, history has shown what a churban Zionists have perpetrated on our people.
WolfMan, point taken. Thank you.
When Rabbi Kook made that comment about the soccer players being greater than neviim, the gedolim of the time, including the Chofetz Chaim, knew and made clear that he was wrong. This was the consensus of the Torah greats of the day and I intended merely to repeat that, not to add my own condemnation.
What I meant by “reality proving those shitos to be wrong” was that, long after Rabbi Koook espoused his views, it’s clear that Zionism has been a disaster, both from a spiritual perspective (yaldei Tehran, ongoing shmad, et al ad nauseum) and from a physical (lack of security and loss of lives, CH”V) perspective.
Ask your LOR (of course).
While it is true that even an ani has a mitzva of tzedaka, that does not mean they have a chiyuv maaser.
The main reason is that the Internet is primarily an awareness issue, whereas smoking is clear to everyone whose head is not in the sand that it is wrong.
I concur with akuperma’s points above, except that Lipman pointed out that his goal was that they be funded independently AS SOME SCHOOLS ALREADY ARE, not that they be closed down.
Regardless, were it not for the Zionist factor and other factors, as Rabbi Yonasan Rosenblum described in his piece titled, “Where the American and Israeli Torah Communities Differ”, my guess is that Rav Feldman’s reaction would have been different.
So it seems that there are some minor issues with Rabbi Lipman’s position; whereas with arguably greater issues, like Zionism, for example, I don’t see everyone rushing to similarly condemn Rabbi Kook and his followers the same way, despite similar denigrations being heaped on them and/or their “shitos” by one or more gedolim and the reality proving those “shitos” to be wrong.
I’m a little behind in my reading of this thread.
Regarding Avi K’s remark about Zionist wars being “generally accepted” as milchemes mitzvah:
This is a mistaken Zionist notion, and certainly not accepted outside Zionism; Zionism is, of course, according to our gedolim, avoda zara.
Come on.
MO, while resembling traditional Orthodoxy in many ways, is not compatible with traditional Orthodoxy (though TIDE is compatible).
MO, including Rabbi Herschel Schachter as per his shiurim, believes in Zionism as a religious part of their religion. As in, for example, they believe it’s potentially worth sacrificing Jewish lives for the State of Israel (not just to help people there). That’s a huge break from, and wholly incompatible with, traditional Orthodoxy.
As well, MO holds that Torah and, lihavdil, Maddah both have intrinsic value. This is also not traditional Orthodoxy. It’s just Torah that has intrinsic values, even if we also study secular subjects for permitted (e.g. practical) reasons.
Not to mention the mixing of the genders and teaching gemara to girls, et al. which are all incompatible with traditional Orthodoxy.
truthsharer:
The nations should know clearly that traditional Orthodox Jews are loyal to and grateful to our host country as our neviim long ago exhorted us to be loyal and, other than MO and other misguided Zionists, not to (the avoda zara that is) the Zionist State of Israel.
This “dual-loyalty” canard/concept has to stop. We care about our brethren living everywhere, not about their host governments, and certainly not Zionism/Israel which is against our Torah; we care only for its Jews.
They should also know that we (try to) remain 100% true to our faith and, like other faiths, maintain a faith-based culture and community as we live “normal” lives working in many different fields. Yet our hard work, as productive and grateful citizens and like that of everyone else, obviously benefits our host country’s economy and everyone regardless of community.
Part of this gratitude we have to them is due to them enabling us to keep our faith, unlike the Zionists who even until today seek to replace our faith with Zionism and unlike so many of the countries that we have been to in our long exile which persecuted us.
This would be a tremendous Kiddush Hashem.
yytz:
Non-Chassidic and Non-MO Jews whose members happen to work in all sorts of fields in addition to, lihavdil, klei kodesh and value the Torah’s values and lifestyle above all else, including ashkenazim, sefardim and TIDE Germans, are the ones who believe in the same Judaism that has always been practiced.
MO, according to no less than Rabbi JB Soloveichik himself, is a new innovation, which, especially in hindsight, was based on a faulty premise and whose premise is even more clearly not relevant today. But it seems people are either not educated well in matters of their faith, or else they like kulos even when those are really issurim, one would guess…
ashmorris613:
In fact, even Rabbi JB Soloveichik, the founder of MO stated that the less secular culture the better. Whereas one of his students, YU’s Chancellor Lamm referred to traditional Orthodox as (Torah) cavemen. Unfortunately, the talmid’s mistaken view has prevailed.
In practice, however, unlike Lamm’s mistaken opinion, there are, of course, many professionals (many with the highest degrees in their fields) who are traditionally orthodox, not “Centrist”. Whether for parnassa and its required education or for any other legitimate reason, one does not need to compromise their Judaism (as does MO), and this should be (made) clear to both Jew and non-Jew alike.
We just recently read parshas Kedoshim. As in “vihyisem li sigula miKal haAmim”, and not diminishing that kedusha as a fulfillment of an erroneous “value” of being “Modern”. Not to mention the Avoda Zara of Zionism to which they also (incredibly) elevated (a massive rebellion against the Torah that is Zionism) to a religious obligation, also due (in part), it seems, to this modernity.
See also this thread:
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/becoming-chareidi-or-mo/page/2
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/becoming-chareidi-or-mo/page/3
ashmorris613:
“Modern orthodox–tries to observe Judaism while being open to aspects of modern society that do not conflict with it. Charedi/so-called “Ultra Orthodox” –tries to observe and preserve Judaism by shunning most of modern society’s influence…”
—-
Your list is incomplete since you missed mentioning “Traditional Orthodox”.
As well, its description of MO is inaccurate.
In any society with many values antithetical to ours, it is fairly obvious that one can only “observe and preserve Judaism by shunning most of modern society’s influence”, regardless of how “Modern” you think you may be. So this is certainly a reasonable baseline.
Modern Orthodox (or “Centrists” as they like to think of themselves to justify their “Modernity”), mistakenly ascribe inherent value to modernity and secular culture and, therefore, push beyond acceptable boundaries of halacha in order to be “Modern”.
Traditional Orthodoxy values the Torah’s values above all else. Period. Any conforming societal or other norms that do not conflict with our values are, therefore, acceptable to that extent only.
If anyone really wants to frame this in, lihavdil, Christian terms, I would think it’s like this:
The Christian equivalent of Conservative (as in religion, not politics) might hold that Yeshu was a partial savior.
The Reform equivalent might hold that he was only allegorically a savior.
The Reconstructionism equivalent might hold that he was just a nice guy.
I would presume that no Christian theologist would view any of these as a valid approach to Christianity, despite the varying levels of resemblance to Christianity that these approaches may have.
Regardless, lihavdil, the holy Torah cannot be changed.
ashmorris613:
“There is only one Judaism, just different approaches to it. Reform, Reconstructionist, Conservative –all are attempts to change Judaism…”
I don’t mean to criticize, but this is, of course, absurd; Hashem stated in the Torah that the Torah cannot be changed. For example “Lo Soseif alav viLo Sigra miMenu”. The “different approaches” exist solely within Orthodoxy. These other denominations are not genuine Judaism.
Central to Judaism, unlike, lihavdil, Christianity, is the world’s blueprint, the Torah, and its 613 mitzvos and underlying belief and value system. These other “denominations” tamper with some or all of this so they are, therefore, not legitimate Jewish paths. This ranges from undermining (i.e. Conservative) to “reforming” to “reconstructing” some or all of the central tenets and more of our faith.
Put another way, these “other denominations” are simply different religions that happen to resemble Judaism ranging from somewhat (Conservative) to not at all (Reform and Reconstructionist).
ZDad: the problem with that approach is that the IDF is a moral sinkhole and Zionist “acculturation” and “deJudaization” tool, and that the chareidim were in Eretz Yisrael long before Zionism got there.
So the Zionists have no business in making the Chareidim serve in their army (especially since their army is only “necessary” because the Zionists decided to pick a fight with the Arabs so they could have their State, against the explicit wishes of the chareidim already living there who lived peacefully with the Arabs).
Avi K:
You keep repeating this story is a lie. There are plenty of names quoted in that story. 2 different yeshivos viTalmideihem heard that story.
Someone should be able to verify if the story is indeed false.
Meanwhile, you accuse someone of lying. Prove that he’s lying.
If I had to pick whose story I believe between two anonymous Internet posters, the one whose views are in consonance with the Torah are the ones I’d choose.
The Brisker Rov said the State of Israel is the Satan’s greatest triumph since the Egel.
Rav Elchonon Wasserman said Religious Zionism is Religion mixed with Avoda Zara.
Zionists have no answers.
ROB, instead of being a yes man to Zionist apologetics, why not try to answer some of the questions posed?
Because you can’t. But that’s okay; nobody else can, either, because it’s not possible to answer.
rationalfrummie:
There are other mekoros besides the gemara in Kesubos, but that’s not the point. And the gimmel shevuos are brought down lihalacha in various other places.
But that’s besides the point.
The gemara in kesubos says something. Your kushya is how to apply hashgacha pratis and klalis to the State of Israel and Zionism.
You could ask the same thing on how Hashem allowed Klal Yisrael to miscalculate about the 40 days and make the egel (and murder Chur, a gadol HaDor, in the process). Where was Hashem’s hashgacha? There are plenty of other things one can ask about.
With Zionism, our gedolim told us that Hashem allowed the Satan to put Klal Yisrael to an enormous test. This is crystal clear, in hindsight. Unfortunately, like the Baal, Zionism has fooled and propagandized many people into being pocheis al shitai haSiifim of Torah and, lihavdil, Zionism.
There are other parts to the answer like bechira and much more.
But, regardless, how can you ignore a bifeirush gemara and so much more because of what you (mistakenly) believe to be “nissim and niflaos” and chasadim? Yeshu did nissim, too. The gemara in A”Z says that people were healed in a Church. Nissim do not prove the correctness of anything. It is the Zionists who refuse to see Hashem’s true workings.
Would you have preferred that Hashem had taken more blood during their bloody war of independence to prove that the Zionists were wrong? B”H, Hashem spared His people. Why use that against Him?
The Brisker Rov said the State of Israel is the Satan’s greatest triumph since the Egel.
Rav Elchonon Wasserman said Religious Zionism is Religion mixed with Avoda Zara.
That sounds pretty rational and frum to me.
147, Zionists are known to have unusual priorities, so your statement fits right in.
You are saying that it is far more reprehensible and sadder to follow their own Rav in not voting in Israel than it is to worship Avoda Zara by believing in Zionism.
I would believe that this is Zionism if you say it is.
“Torah Yid” quoted this Kook Shmook story, in a different thread, and added more details:
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/rav-elyashev-bans-nachal-chareidi/page/7
“The Rosh Yeshiva of YU, HaRav Yeruchem Gorelick ZT’L, personally was present and directly heard from the Chofetz Chaim’s own mouth say Kook Shmook derogatorily. He was at the CC with his father who was a talmid of the CC. And Rav Gorelick repeated this story publicly frequently. (Including at the Yeshiva of South Fallsburg, where his son was Rosh Yeshiva.) As did The Rov ZT’L (Rav Berel Soloveitchik ZT’L) relate this story publicly.”
So how do you know the Kook Shmook story is a lie? Surely this could easily be verified, given the above names.
But it doesn’t matter, because there’s plenty more that “religious Zionism” can’t answer.
The Brisker Rov said the State of Israel is the Satan’s greatest triumph since the Egel.
Rav Elchonon Wasserman said Religious Zionism is Religion mixed with Avoda Zara.
And other gedolim besides the Satmar Rov forbade learning from Rabbi Kook’s seforim. So when the Satmar Rov called him an apikores, how are you so sure he was exaggerating? And how much of an “exaggeration” was it? Come on.
Again, it is clear that Zionism in any form is against the Torah; and its bloody history has proven too well that it was very foolish and deadly to violate the Oaths, Hashem Yishmor.
Avi K: I repeated what I read, not my own halachic ruling.
See my post above. All the stories are nice stories, but if the Satmar Rav called him an apikores, that’s not something to take lightly.
Regardless, as I wrote earlier:
The Brisker Rov said the State of Israel is the Satan’s greatest triumph since the Egel.
Rav Elchonon Wasserman said Religious Zionism is Religion mixed with Avoda Zara.
As I said in the beginning of this thread, it’s sad that Zionists continue to believe in Zionism against the Torah and its gedolim.
Sam2: In case my other post didn’t make it through, “myfriend” mentioned the story in this thread:
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/hashkofos-apikorsos
Mod 73, I can’t try to reply, to 3+ people, all in one “tweet”-sized response, but I will try to do as you demand. Sorry for all this work I caused you to do.
As I’ve posted before, all the emotional sevaras and nice stories are, at best, just that. They cannot ever be mitaher the idolatry of Zionism which plain historical facts have shown to be a massive disaster, Hashem Yishmor.
Rabbi Kook was roundly condemned for his shita on Zionism and statements like the one Avi K explained earlier and the one that the holy Chofetz Chaim replied “Kook Shmook” in response to (the one about how atheist soccer players in E”Y are holier than neviiim), and some gedolim even went further and branded Rabbi Kook an apikores.
Zionists like to delude themselves that those who don’t believe in their idolatry are a “minority”. In fact, when viewed through the gedolim’s eyes, it is Zionists who are the ones who have nothing and nobody to rely on in their fanatical worship of their idol that has cost many thousands of Jewish lives, CH”V.
The Brisker Rov said the State of Israel is the Satan’s greatest triumph since the Egel.
Rav Elchonon Wasserman said Religious Zionism is Religion mixed with Avoda Zara.
As I said in the beginning of this thread, it’s sad that they continue to believe in Zionism against the Torah and its gedolim.
make your post shorter -73
“an Israeli Yid” – is that another Zionist ignore-the-facts approach in a futile attempt to be mitaher the A”Z of Zionism?
Of course Hashgacha Pratis did not stop in 1948. Who said it did?
And who said nothing before and after that was a maaseh Satan?
One can also infer from the Brisker Rov’s words that this is not the case:
Again, as the Brisker Rov stated, “The State of Israel was the Satan’s greatest triumph since the Egel.”
Notice he said “**greatest** accomplishment since the egel”, not the “only” one. This implies that there were other triumphs (and could certainly be others post-1948, as well) but that none of those other accomplishments were **as great** as the Satan’s accomplishment in creating the State of Israel.
Zionists just can’t stop putting out these non-substantive “arguments” which, since these aren’t serious and do not address the myriad problems with their idolatrous theology, simply mean that Zionists are so infatuated with their idolatry R”L that they either can’t or simply don’t want to consider the overwhelming evidence contrary to their idolatrous fallacies.
As I posted above:
“Religious Zionism” is, as Rav Elchonon said, Religion and A”Z.
And Matisyahu’s post in the thread mentioned there is a great read on this topic.
May Hashem redeem us all with the true geulah when we will all be zoche to the true geulah with “Umalah HaAretz Deiah es Hashem…”, without any, CH”V, idolatry of Zionism, BB”A.
ROB, the only thing impossible about it is trying to reason with you and some others among the Zionist-indoctrinated mass.
But, in truth, “Kol HaPosel BiMumo Posel”. It is you who are desperately trying to defend the impossible to defend.
Again, “As the Brisker Rov stated, The State of Israel was the Satan’s greatest triumph since the Egel.”
You’re bringing emotional sevaras that have no basis in Torah as an attempted proof against the word of virtually all gedolim? That’s not very logical, and certainly not rabbinical.
You wrote:
“If…the establishments of the medinah…is an aveirah, then why is it thriving? The ‘maaseh egel” brought immediate retribution!”
1. Are you proposing that Hashem should have allowed more than the 1% of its population, amounting to thousands of Jews, who died in Israel’s Independence wars?
2. Unfortunately, the punishment of “Ani Mattir es bisarchem kiAylos haSadeh” was quite evident in the 90s and, to a lesser extent, throughout the State’s tragic and very bloody history, Hashem Yishmor.
3. The USSR existed for almost a century. The Holocaust lasted the better part of a decade. Our Galus is millenia old.
Where in the Torah or in its gedolim’s sefarim does it claim that something is a good thing once it has existed for a certain amount of time?
Once again, “As the Brisker Rov stated, The State of Israel was the Satan’s greatest triumph since the Egel.”
Avi: I’m not sure what your quote from Rabbi Kook is supposed to mean, but what are the sources for the others you mentioned?
In any event, whatever he meant is not relevant; see Matisyahu’s post in this thread:
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/still-fuming-at-rabbi-belsky-and-mishpacha/page/2
Zionism, regardless of flavor, is wrong and very against the Torah in numerous ways. As Matisyahu mentions in that thread, none of the “Religious Zionists”, including Rabbi Kook, had answers to the gedolim’s points that made it quite obvious that Zionism is Avoda Zara and very wrong.
“Religious Zionism” is, as Rav Elchonon said, Religion and A”Z.
There is no contest, at the end of the day.
ROB, when you start accusing the Satmar Rav of (“near”) Kefirah, you further illustrate how terrible is this avoda zara of Zionism and what it does to its followers.
Of course there are not “2 reshuyos”, CH”V.
All day school students know that Hashem gave the Satan power to trip up Klal Yisrael.
Let’s simplify this further: The Satan acts in accordance with Hashem’s will to make you do bad things. That means, as grade school children know, you have to resist the Satan, because that’s what Hashem wants *you* to do, to NOT listen to the Satan.
As the Brisker Rov stated, The State of Israel was the Satan’s greatest triumph since the Egel.
To get Klal Yisrael to build an egel, the Satan succeeded in convincing the Jews that Moshe Rabbeinu was dead and made the reality seem completely different than it was, to the point that mere days after matan Torah, hearing Anochi Hashem from G-d himself, there were a small portion of Jews who said Eile Elohecha Yisrael asher heelucha meiEretz Mitzrayim to an eigel of gold.
Ad masai atem pochasim al shitei haSiifim?
Avi K:
The Brisker Rav, the Chazon Ish, Rav Shach among many others, held that the founding of the State of Israel, was a terrible thing.
The Chofetz Chaim, too, was against Zionism and even said “Kook Shmook” when he say Rabbi Kook’s piece about how soccer players are holier than neviim because they’re building the land.
So nothing you’ve written in any way impacts this. Even *if* there is a mitzva of Yishuv HaAretz still in effect during galus, this cannot come at the disastrous expense of violating any of the oaths, as history has now shown way too powerfully, Hashem Yishmor.
That signature on Israel’s blasphemous declaration of independence, assuming it’s legit, etc. is also not a proof to anything except that tactically speaking many gedolim held that once the State was a forgone conclusion that it would be better to work with it to minimize its damage. But this doesn’t at all change the clear halachic violation that the state and Zionism are.
Everyone, including Rabbi Teitelbaum, understood that since the Satan succeeded in his greatest triumph since the egel, it would be a catastrophe if the Arabs were to win in a war against Israel. But that didn’t change the halachic status of the State. Zionism and the State are still Avoda Zara and a violation of the oaths and other things, and tactical responses to the State do not change this.
Avi K:
I’m sure Rav Schach, Rav Elchonon, the Chofetz Chaim (who authored M”B) and all the other greats must have missed that Ramban. Not.
I’ll stop there.
147:
Voting now versus not voting now may be a difference between Satmar and others.
That is a matter of tactics ex post facto, and this is not the issue.
The so-called “Satmar Shita” referred to here (which virtually all the gedolim held and still hold) as it applies to the halachic gross heresy of the State of Israel in particular and Zionism in general is absolutely the Torah’s shita; there is no contest.
besalel: I have disagreed and continue to disagree with a number of posters on these boards, but I can not ever recall having CH”V cursed or wished any sort of bad things on any of them, CH”V.
The last two sentences of your post, above, is an absolute abomination and I am surprised the mods let that through.
For what it’s worth, I do not forgive you for including my screen name in this terrible post. How dare you curse a Jew?
Hashem can forgive Avoda Zara. But only a person can forgive bein Adam LaChaveiro.
Incidentally, if I had any doubt before that the State was a maaseh Satan, your disgraceful post pretty much clinched it.
You accuse a Jew of hating other Jews because of your invented rule of anti-Zionism being anti-semitism (which MAY be generally true when the subject is a non-Jew). Yet the Zionists who have, by their own admission, created untold (and some told) pain and tragedy to Klal Yisrael and to our creator, you are proud to stand behind.
Kal Hamiracheim al HaAchzar sofo lihyos achzar al haMiracheim.
Charlie: “and the IDF doesn’t?”
Correct. Limud HaTorah affects everyone.
The IDF is, at best, a tool and, if it were Hashem’s will to replace it with something else, then He could also ensure that everyone would be just fine without it.
It was purely political, not ch”v an endorsement of Zionism.
WIY:
Nevuah about galus Yishmael does not mean that Arabs always behaved this way towards Jews. The simple reality is that they did not.
Their hate may have always existed to some extent, but that hate and its manifestations was never anywhere close to what it is today, and that hatred is due solely to Zionism.
writersoul:
chibas haAretz (by the way, who knows which of the 613 mitzvos that is; which passuk is it derived from?) is not an exclusively Zionist trait and, assuming it is a mitzva to love the land, is something that is wholly irrelevant to Zionism except that Zionists use it as a tool to fool people to make their idolatry kosher. B”H, at least some people see through that ruse.
Zionism is very much “the government part”. Read the shiurim of Rabbi Herschel Schachter where he speaks specifically of the government, not (just) the land, in religious terms.
This thread is about saying Hallel, which is a religious prayer, on occasion of a Zionist holiday.
147:
“I am old enough to vividly remember the Chebron attack on August 24, 1929. This was before we were Zochim to have a Medinat Yisrael, so I simply will not buy this argument that Zionism has provoked Arab rage.”
If you do vividly remember 1929, then you also vividly remember the facts as described (and can listen to the tape for yourself), including Religious Zionists’ Shema Yisrael HaKosel Kosleinu and the other instances of hisgarus baUmos which so dramatically and tragically inflamed the Arabs to hate the Jews. Jews lived in Arab countries for centuries before Zionism and the Yemenites had their mesorah intact since bayis rishon – until the evil Zionists intentionally threw overboard their sefarim and kisvei yad and shmaded them, etc. after convincing them to come to their Zionist paradise. It was not always a bed of roses in Arab countries, but the intense and savage hatred they have now, with its manifestations in the tragic loss of so much Jewish blood, Hashem yishmor, is solely a result of Zionism and far, far worse than anything experienced in Arab countries.
Rabbi Soloveichik admitted that Zionism caused the Arabs to hate Jews, and this is anyways plain and simple for any observer to see.
ROB:
The so-called “Satmar shita” is actually the Torah’s shita. None of the Zionists (here or elsewhere) have yet to come up with anyone who could (i.e. as being on their level in Torah) and did argue on Rav Elchonon Wasserman, the Chazon Ish, the Chofetz Chaim, etc. It’s no contest.
As for Kefirah (speaking of Zionism….), who told you that our freedom is only as individuals and that global matters are pre-ordained by Hashem? At what point does Hashem decide and at what point do we decide? For example, an Arab homicide/suicide bomber savagely murdered some Jews after which Israel began an operation in Gaza. So was his act personal or global? What you posit makes no sense, except to justify your idol of Zionism since you can then claim that the State was “pre-ordained”, CH”V, when it so clearly was not the ratzon Hashem, as virtually every gadol warned and every objective observer can now see.
147:
Perhaps you should remove the wool of Zionism from over your eyes to see just how misguided both your remarks and their “umbrage” (not “humbrage”) are.
See Rav Elchanan Wasserman’s Ikvisa DiMishicha:
“Nationalism is idolatry…religious nationalism is avodah zarah [with religion]”
Read it. There’s plenty more.
He also mentions the Three Oaths which Zionists still somehow dismiss as “mere agadita” (wrong on both counts, incidentally) despite the savage terrorism the Arabs committed in Israel never before seen in history. R”L L”A.
WriterSoul:
Please see above: any nationalism (or anything else non-Torah) that you try to graft on to our holy Torah is idolatry. (Israel is anyways still Socialist, but that is not relevant.) The A”Z is the point, besides that the Zionists are destroying Torah as best as they can, CH”V.
Zionism is nothing like simple (American or other) Patriotism, and certainly not so when viewed from a “Religious-Zionist” perspective. If it were only patriotism, then we wouldn’t be having this absurd discussion of saying Hallel on a secular independence day just as, lihavdil, we don’t say Hallel on July 4th.
Avi: All the massive amounts of blood spilled, CH”V, for or because of this idol of Zionism (some of that in various cruel and barbaric ways) to create and maintain its State at any cost, is clearly no indication that Hashem wants the State any more than the Holocaust’s multi-year existence would show that He wanted the Holocaust, CH”V.
Not to mention the uncomfortable (to Zionists) facts of how it’s A”Z and a violation of the oaths and much more. That Hashem *allowed* the State is quite obvious.
But allowing and wanting (again, see WW-II) are two very different concepts.
Health:
Health often brings up Turkey. While the facts on the ground make the situation difficult to resolve al pi derech haTeva (since the Zionists made such an enormous mess), there are still certain things that could be done easily, if only the majority of Klal Yosrael were interested in doing the following and not blinded by Zionism.
One of those is: Just as Turkey is known as a secular state, and not representative of Muslims, so, too, Israel should be known as a secular State and not representative of, liHavdil, Jews.
There is nothing in science that can explain anything before their alleged big bang. In other words, matter cannot come from nothing. And time always marches on. The only possible explanation for “before time” and “before matter” is some sort of metaphysical force.
This could be Purim Torah, I guess.
In truth, though, it’s quite sad how misguided and against gedolim so many of our brethren are in their following of this avoda zara of Zionism.
It would make much more sense, objectively and halachicly speaking, for those who “celebrate” this day, to add selichos (for celebrating Israel’s Independence Day) to the b”h”b selichos rather than to say Hallel for that Avoda Zara’s Independence Day.
Then, if the Yetzer HaRa for A”Z (of Zionism) would continue to leave them alone, they could stop celebrating, CH”V, this tragic day which was really just one more stage in the spilling of so much blood of so many innocent Jews, R”L L”A Hashem Yishmor, in the Zionists’ tragic and doomed endless pursuit of this idolatry of their State at all costs and against the warnings and teachings of so many gedolim and so obviously (even more so in hindsight) kineged the ratzon of Hashem.
So the only question would seem to be which selichos to say first, those for Israel’s Independence day or those for, lihavdil, B”H”B. And since all of Klal Yisrael says the ones for B”H”B, it would seem that those are the ones recited first.
This part is not Purim Torah, and is just conjecture.
It is hard for modern man to understand the logic and reasoning of how so many people worshipped the baal and, even worse, the molech, casting their children into flames in service of this latter idol. The whole concept makes no sense, given the time, money, blood, sweat and tears it takes to raise a child. To then give that over to an idol who they knew quite well had no real power would seem to require delusion and hallucination.
Yet as Zionism becomes ever more ridiculous due to its many, many disasters since even before it founded its state at the price of enormous amounts of Jewish blood, while its adherents remain as faithful as ever (or even more faithful) to Zionism, it becomes more understandable how people could have worshipped the molech.
After all, people today, especially non-“cavemen” MO, who are surely more “modern” and sophisticated than those at the time of chazal, uproot their entire existence to live under the yoke of anti-Torah heretics in the holy land and also send their children to the front-lines in the IDF as a religious observance to fight for this idol of Zionism, when history has already amply demonstrated that this idol, too, is powerless. As a gadol presciently stated at its founding, the State of Israel is the Satan’s greatest triumph since the Egel HaZahav. In hindsight, to those not blinded by this idol, it is plain to see.
It’s amazing how the idolatry of Zionism is so blinding (to Zionists, but so plainly wrong to others) that when confronted with facts that clearly contradict the Zionists’ egel and the laaz put forth by “Religious Zionists”, all a Zionist seems capable to do is to be motzi laaz yet again and, almost as importantly, continue believing in his idol and not even attempt to answer the facts of the issues. This is simply because there are no answers for what these (secular) rishaim did and continue to do.
Again, let’s use Zionist sources, leaving out, liHavdil, the gedolei HaTorah’s clear denunciations of Zionism, including their own recalling of some of the various Zionist perfidies.
Elie Wiesel in his LA Times review of Tom Segev’s book 7th million:
“We know that Zionist leader Itzhak Gruenbaum, a future Minister of the Interior in David ben Gurion’s first cabinet, considered creating new settlements more urgent than saving Jews from being sent to Treblinka and Birkenau.”
And another gem, also from a Zionist source (AICE):
Aileh Elohecha, “Tziyonim”, asher Heviachem LaAvoda Zara shel Ha”Tziyonus”.
The Zionists’ outrageous and utterly foolish bragging that the Holocaust never would have happened had they been around then is such a bald-faced lie, only in part, because of their words and action/inaction during the Holocaust, as mentioned above and as can be found from Rabbi Weismandl’s Min HaMeitzar, for starters. They believed (and stated) that only through blood would they achieve Statehood; so Jewish blood was, in their mind, a perfectly reasonable price to pay. Yet, these reshaim claim, if there would have been an IDF then that would have changed…what, given that attitude above? How ridiculous!
Given the above, it is also very difficult to understand how anyone can think to ascribe any religious significance to Zionism and their holidays.
Whereas:
Anachnu Maaminim binei Maaminim viAin lanu al mi liHishaein ela al avinu sheBaShamayim.
Ask your LOR regarding A Capella music.
I agree with PBA, that it’s motzi laaz to say it has “real music” unless you know for sure that it is.
Perhaps as a way to be dan liKaf Zechus, it should be understood that music can be dramatically changed from initial recording to output. If you compare older concerts to the studio recordings of the same song, you can hear a remarkable difference between them, and that’s with instruments.
So just because it sounds “music-like” does not mean that they cheated and used real instruments. Given the above, I would think it’s certainly computer manipulation.
ROB, it seems your belief in the idolatry of Zionism has now caused you to also be motzi laaz on the rest of Klal Yisrael.
Those kinos are not skipped, as far as I know.
But the lies and treachery of Zionism regarding the Holocaust (which the Zionists have some chutzpah to commemorate given this involvement) is certainly well-hidden and glossed over (unless you research online).
I just want to support the OP in his question. I do not believe it is sinas chinam to want to live among people whose hashkafa and mode of dress you share, irrespective of how wonderful other Jews may also be. I think his Flatbush/BP comment was excellent, too.
ROB: “No one has an asnwer about the HOlocaust”
Actually, those who choose to ignore Zionist propaganda and also read the Zionists’ own words (e.g. “Palestine cannot be flooded with the old and undesirable” – how Nazi-like, incidentally), and read what their policies (yes, pre-State) were during WW-II, have a partial answer. And those who look to what gedolim said have even more of an answer.
“R. Hutner, on the other hand, was a fierce critic of Zionism. In one well-known lecture, he places causal responsibility for the Holocaust on the Zionist movement. He argues that the Mufti of Jerusalem was not rabidly anti-Semitic until he encountered Zionist aspirations to reclaim the Land of Israel and that the Mufti thereafter played a crucial influential role in convincing the Nazis to adopt the Final Solution.”
There are plenty of others, too, like R’ Gifter who was quoted as saying that Hitler YM”S was a Divine messenger of retribution due to the general acceptance of Zionism.
Google and you shall find – and the above is from an MO site.
The bottom line is that while the answer is not a simple one, the Zionists would be wise to avoid this topic as it exposes (part of) their rishus and makes one question how those reshaim could possibly be miZera Avraham, Yitzchak viYaakov.
As for the OP, sorry to hear about your experience.
I wouldn’t extrapolate this, though, to be reflective of the entire system world-wide.