HaKatan

Seems like YWN censored my prior comment with multiple responses to the above. Oh well.

lakewhut:
The very slight difference is that by voting republican, democrat, independent, green or anything else you aren’t joining a century-plus years old heretical ideological organization (WZO) that all gedolim across the board for over a century absolutely forbade joining, including Rav Elyashiv who banned the Shas party of the Israeli government from doing so about 15 years ago.

ZSK:

It is not complicated unless you are affected Zionist idolatry. No, we do not have those things.
Mitzrayim was anyways different because we did not yet have the Torah.

Jews are an “am” as in “people”, meaning a group of people, who have in common exactly one thing only: the Torah. Not culture, not land and not language. No, Jews are not a nation.

For example, Syrian Jews have a rather different culture (and language) than do Hungarian Jews, for example. And the land (until Mashiach comes) is no different than Matza on Pesach. As even Rabbi Dr. Soloveitchik noted, “EY is one mitzva among the mitzvos”.

ubiquitin:
I do not recall asking that question. I did, however, point out above that Rav Chaim Vital was not talking about these oaths, as the Satmar Rav explains.

AAQ:
An “Am” and “Goy” is a people, meaning a group of people with something in common. In our case, that would be the Torah, including (for men) having been brought into “briso shel Avraham Avinu”. That’s what that means, not anything to do with land, culture, language, and the other trappings of “Nationalism” (including Zionism).

Let’s try to clarify. Take, for example, a nation called France. Its citizens, whether or not the actually live in that country, are called French. France is a Nation, in the Nationalist sense of the word, like Italy and Spain and all the rest. What makes each of those a nation? The answer is that they have a common land, language, culture etc.

Now try to apply that to Jews. You can’t, because Jews do not have a common land, language and culture. Yes, E”Y is G-d’s holy land from which He expelled us and to which He will return us and in which we can still do mitzvos that cannot be done elsewhere. But it is not our land, certainly not in the sense of France to the French, et al. In other words, the land does not define us; the Torah does. Same with the language: yes, we have a lashon haKodesh in common, with G-d created the world, but that is not what defines us, and, on a practical level, not the language that we use daily, unlike Italiano for Italians, et al. Even more so with culture: there is no Torah-defined “culture” other than following the Torah, like being holy and keeping separate from the nations. We do not have a Torah-defined arts, plays, favorite outdoor activities, etc. all of which are part of a normal national culture.

Zionism has unfortunately largely changed all that by claiming to be the replacement theology for Judaism and convincing even many religious Jews that Judaism is just a nationality (like Graetz proposed centuries ago), and that the Nation-State (and language and culture, etc.) of that Nationality is Israel. Religion is your own business, in the Zionist faith, unless (oddly enough) you subscribe to another religion. But, in the Zionist faith, it is the Nation (Israel) and Nation-State (Israel) and its culture, language, etc. that define you, not the Torah. Every Zionist believes that, even those that put on Tefillin. That is how they write nonsense like everything the State of Israel does is holy, etc.

You can engage in silly disagreements over the nuances, positions and tactics between the Satmar Rav and the rest of the gedolim.
But it is indisputable that Zionism is idolatry, heresy and (therefore) of course against the Torah, despite the nonsense cranked out by Zionists of all types, like the OP posted from one of their “rabbis” here.

Just drop the idolatry already, and stop with the abysmally stupid meme that “everyone but Satmar” holds of Zionism, when the reality is that everyone (including Satmar) holds that Zionism is idolatry and heresy.

Koifer BIkur:
The drivel posted in the OP is a disgrace, even to an am haAretz, let alone to a rabbi/tenth-generation Yerushalmi/whatever. But that’s what Zionism and other idolatrous forces naturally do: they make people invent the silliest things in an attempt to defend their idolatry which is, of course, indefensible. Throughout history, there were a few rabbis, far greater than anyone known to be around today, who wrote things even more anti-Torah than the OP’s drivel.

HaLeiVi:
None of them are valid, of course.

somejewiknow:
It’s not really that the “rabbis” of “Religious Zionism” are fraudulent. It’s that “Religious Zionism” is “a sea of heresy mixed in with a drop of Torah” (Brisker Rav) or “Religion and idolatry biShituf” (Rav Elchonon). They’re just preaching that religion.

Rocky:
If you do the research as to what EH has done the past five years, you would know that they obviously lied to Rav Gurwicz, just as they essentially admitted they deceived Rav Chaim. See the .com site harehbetzba, which has a well-written PDF on all this. Rav Aharon Feldman has stated that Rav Shmuel Kaminetsky never was happy with the supposed heter from Rav Chaim, especially because they wouldn’t provide it in writing, and reiterated in 2022, two years after the voting abomination five years ago, that he does not support voting.

There are zero gedolim supporting violating a century+ of wall-to-wall mesorah absolutely prohibiting joining the WZO even to save lives. See the booklet there.

yeshivaman613:

Where is the teshuva from him that we can see? And that original alleged heter from Rav Chaim 5 years ago, upon which lbc”l Rabbi S. Kaminetsky based himself, claimed a “horaas shaah” as Rav Aharon Feldman pointed out.

Regarding your nonsense about not believing in Zionism, first of all, given your stated position, it is very possible that you do even if you don’t realize it.
Regardless, there are numerous problems with joining the WZO/voting in their elections, as all the gedolim have stated, even if you don’t think you believe in any part of Zionism. Oh, and if you look at EH positions and reports from the past five years, they certainly do believe in – and spread – Zionism.

ZSK:
Are you not capable of understanding the reason for that mention? The core identity of MO includes Zionism which is heresy. That’s a rather significant issue.

Yes, Rabbi Dr.’s writings on Zionism are heresy, as Rav Shach wrote in his letters, despite that he wasn’t a messianic Zionist like Rabbi Kook.

Chaim:
Yes, MO do not drive to shul. That’s wonderful. But the Torah still has to “bend” for “Modernity”. Same poison as Conservative.

AAQ:
Ohn be peles was a pretty earnest guy. But he would have died with the rest of Korach’s people had his wife not saved him. Don’t be so sure that you can “carefully study…both sides” and be sure that you can then decide what you want.

Unlike in “Modern Orthodoxy, where rabbis are consulted only for what the laymen consider to be “halakhic” questions, in actual Judaism, we have a concept called mesorah. We also have an obligation to “make for yourself a rav” who follows that mesorah. So, when in doubt, particularly when dealing with severe prohibitions like this, one is obligated to ask a competent Rav.

SB613:
There is no “pro-vote” counter-argument. It’s simply lies, lies and more lies, and some additional deception thrown in for good measure.

lakewhut:
It’s certainly a very far stretch, because Hashem obviously didn’t want it, so it would have been far better without it. Guaranteed.
Regardless, he went beyond founding a “kiruv” movement. He called his pseudo-orthodoxy superior to actual orthodoxy. That’s the biggest problem.

UJM:
They didn’t just “disagree with him” as in “eilu viEilu”. They condemned him for his “innovations” and the like.
Rav Aharon Kotler stated that Rabbi Dr. Soloveichik was responsible for “all the tuma in America”.

As to the main point you were trying to make, had he created “Modern Orthodoxy” as a temporary kiruv stage, then that would have been bad enough.

But, instead, he claimed (when creating MO) that only his (Maskilic) way would survive, and “separatist orthodoxy” would become a museum-piece. Of course, netzach Yisrael lo yishaker, as we just read, so his prediction would obviously not be possible, but that is even more obvious in hindsight.

B”H, the opposite has happened (compare the numbers in BMG and other yeshivos versus those in YU, and also note all the “flip-outs” who realize that “Modern Orthodoxy” is absurd, and then go to NIRC or other such yeshivos after being shmaded in YU, and become traditionally orthodox instead of “Modern Orthodox”). BE”H, this will continue to happen until the heresy and idolatry of “Modern Orthodoxy” finally becomes history.

“Non Political”
As I recall, your claim was that no poskim bring down the oaths as halacha.
So, I correctly pointed out that numerous poskim indeed do so, as the Satmar Rav brings down and as shown in that thread.

Chaim:
Why are you accusing of lies? First of all, the Brisker Rav lived in E”Y, but that’s besides the point. His summoning the Brisker B”D for every title he had to use when addressing Rabbi Kook is documented in the Brisker Rav books, if I am not mistaken.

Anyways, we’re making progress, B”H. You went from “eilu viEilu” to “most versus a few”. Please G-d, you will see the truth that Zionism is indeed universally acknowledged as the heresy and idolatry that it most obviously is.

StrugglingBachur:
Businesses need to make money, but there certainly should be chesed organizations who could help bachurim increase their level of kedusha, including sponsoring a filter for them. Maybe some gevirim will get together to make it happen.

Non Political:
Of course they are brought liHalacha, as stated. Your laziness to look at VaYoel Moshe or elsewhere is not an excuse for insinuating that others are making things up.

See this post here, on these very boards, for example: https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/refuting-the-three-oaths-gimel-shevuot#post-2266950

Chaim:
No, you did not do your job. You did not take the numerous quoted sefarim and ask Rizhin how their alleged mesorah works with or argues with that. The “flip side” is not going to Satmar to ask about your stories about Rizhin; that’s beyond silly. Have Rizhin publish a teshuva that their alleged mesorah disagrees with all the quoted sefarim here and elsewhere including but not limited to Rav Elchonon, the Chazon Ish, the Brisker Rav, the Gerrer Rebbe and all the rest. You can’t, of course.

ZSK:
It wasn’t an emotional issue; I (seemingly incorrectly) thought that if I pointed out the obvious fallacies in each of those “arguments” that even Zionists would understand that they were being fooled by their idol. I guess I was wrong about that.

No, you don’t have any “mesorah” for Zionism, because there is no such thing. Nobody claimed to be following his rabbeim in promoting Zionism. In fact, Rabbi Dr. Soloveitchik acknowledged that he was breaking from his (rather strong anti-Zionist) mesorah in doing so, and the gedolim did not agree.

My response to Avi K’s nonsense remains, it is your “facts” that are wrong, and you are the one ignoring the facts presented in my perfectly valid IMHO response about. But since you’re so smart, why don’t you take the original sources, including the Satmar Rav (can’t mention his name to Zionists, I know) and Rav Elchonon and all the rest, and ask a talmid chacham to reconcile your alleged mesorah with the plain sourced halachos that they present, even without their own opinions.

Regarding Rabbi Dr. Soloveitchik’s “six knocks” nonsense, I referenced a printed source in which you could see why it is nonsense. Again, you chose to ignore that.

The answer is, as published by the Brisker Rav and signed off by both the Gerrer Rebbe and many others, “Religious Zionism” is “a sea of heresy mixed in with a drop of Torah”, and as published by Rav Elchonon, that Zionism is idolatry and “Religious Zionism” is idolatry and “religion” biShituf. It’s really that simple.

As to your second post:
You are also surely aware that an “ideological dispute” doesn’t cause a gadol to write like that. As Rav Shach pointed out, Rabbi Dr. Soloveitchik was unfortunately influenced by his “external” learning, to the point that Rabbi Dr. Soloveitchik wrote heresy that is shocking to see. That’s well beyond “ideological dispute”. And stories are irrelevant, as noted.

I find it amusing (and pathetic) that Zionists ignore all the poskim that bring the oaths and claim they are “only” aggadita and therefore could and should be disregarded because, say, the Rambam didn’t include them in his sefer haMitzvos (for which there are reasons given). Yet, those same Zionists, will go with stories and legends to disregard published halacha simply because of a story that someone learned with someone else or whatever other irrelevancies.

Avi K:
Your wording is disgusting, as you labeled a “canard” an open gemara, which is also brought down by poskim on the spot there and elsewhere.

The Satmar Rav and others (conveniently) dismiss all your non-points. In brief:
1. No he didn’t. But we anyways pasken like the oaths, as per all the poskim that bring those as halacha including the Rambam himself in Iggeres Teiman.
2. No, that was not referring to these oaths.
3. See #1. He paskened like them in Iggeres Teiman. You are left with an academic question as to why it’s not in other sefarim too. The Satmar Rav and others addressed that academic question, which is otherwise irrelevant.
4. Nope. See #1. As the Satmar Rav brought down, the Rambam and others held them to be applicable despite “too much” persecution. And even if that were true, the “cancellation” would apply only to the oath of not rebelling against the nation, but not the others of dechikas haKeitz and aliya biChoma, all of which the Zionists flagrantly violated.
5. This is am haAratzus, at best. Assuming that Rav Meir Simcha even wrote that, because it was written with no source, in a “religious zionist” publication, all he allegedy said was that the *fear of violating* the oaths would no longer apply in light of the Balfour Declaration permitting Jews to settle in then-Palestine. So, he never stated that the oaths no longer apply, only that the oath against rebelling against the nations would not be a concern if the nations permit Jews to settle there. But that Balfour Declaration was anyways later retracted, the Brits wrote that the Zionists read much more into it than they had permitted, and, perhaps more importantly, none of this has any bearing on the other oaths, including dechikas haKeitz and aliya biChoma, all of which the Zionists flagrantly violated, as mentioned above.
6. This is beyond am haAratzus. And therefore? The gedolim all disagreed with Rabbi Dr. Soloveitchik’s nonsense/heresy (that’s what it is) in his Kol Dodi Dofek speech of his invented 6 defakos, to which you refer. Any ben Torah can see how his 6 defakos argument is pathetically wrong, especially with hindsight, the benefit of which that Rabbi Dr. did not have. Rabbi Yaakov Shapiro spends a few pages in his book on dealing with that nonsense from Rabbi Dr. Soloveitchik, in case you’re interested. Ayein sham.

As Rav Schwab noted, the “Modern Orthodox” are in fact “stale and fossilized” (see #6 above, in particular – he didn’t have the benefit of hindsight, but we all certainly do) and we may not yield even one inch to their “heresy”.

Zionism is factually against Judaism and the Torah, and no amount of “Religious Zionist” propaganda will make it even remotely okay, and there are no source they can bring, as the OP noted.

ZSK:
You’re hilarious. But wrong.
Rav Elchonon, the Chazon Ish and all the others are not “Satmar or Brisk”.

Chaim:
So ask them how they could have gone against all the gedolim, and also, even more importantly, do they still hold that way or do they realize with hindsight that was (obviously) wrong.

AAQ and Square_Root and other Zionists.
The Zionists both caused and contributed to the Holocaust. Period. Game over.
Their idolatrous worshipers, even “religious” ones, then have the audacity to blame the gedolim for what is in fact the blame of the Zionists.

Rav Elchonon famously wrote then that the letter’s subjects should emigrate from Europe to the US only if they will not be going into an impossible spiritual sakana, like emigrating via YU instead of via Torah VoDaath, for example.

Recall as well that then-Palestine was in great danger of being invaded by the Nazis, which is exactly what (almost) happened (Rommel). So, that is an additional reason why it was not wise to move to Palestine. In fact, the Brisker Rav did so only because he held that the spiritual (not physical) sakana in Europe was a bigger non-starter than was the great physical sakana in then-Palestine.

Rav Hutner wrote about this in the Jewish media decades ago, perhaps in the Jewish Observer.

But Zionist idolaters aren’t interested in truth; they’re interested only in their idol, which has caused death and destruction, both physical and spiritual, to Jews over a century on a scale never before seen in history.

That anyways wasn’t the topic of this post, though. The topic is the lack of any sources for the Zionists’ impossible attempt to insert their idolatry into the Torah.

Duvidf:
“the 3 Oaths that are not brought by any traditional halachic authority.”

The oaths are brought by many halachic authorities including the Rambam himself in Iggeres Teiman and many others, as the Satmar Rav quotes in his sefarim.

The “Religious Zionist” idolaters don’t like that, and they pathetically try to explain them away, but fail miserably.

Chaim:
Your assertion that the Satmar Rav was writing only hashkafa and not halacha is not only silly and false, because he was very obviously telling people what you can and cannot do vis a vis the Zionists and its “State”, but that distinction is also a false distinction created by the maskilim; hashkafa is very much part of halacha. Regardless, he clearly wrote both hashkafa and halacha, not just theoretical hashkafa.

And, as before, your stories are irrelevant, no matter how many people were there, in part because stories are extremely subjective. A sefer, on the other hand, contains black-and-white instruction and explanation. As mentioned in the other thread, if you wanted to be honest about those stories, you would take the numerous sefarim on the topic to the Rizyners and ask them how your stories about them are reconciled with those writings, and if they actually disagree with those sefarim, which they obviously cannot, as Zionism is indefensible.

Non Political:

The Satmar Rav did so decades ago in VaYoel Moshe. Not that the Ramban would any way justify Zionism, regardless.

The easiest current work-around seems to be to open a new tab in your browser and then logout/login from/to YWN in that tab. Then, in your original YWN tab, it should accept your comment when you hit submit.

Non-Political and all the other Zionists:
So, basically, the Zionists have nothing to respond.
Zionism is very obviously idolatry and heresy. Period. As the Brisker Rav noted explicitly, its “State” is a violation of the entire Torah.

If you don’t like my explanation of how it is obvious, then you’re welcome to find anyone who argues with the Brisker Rav (and all the others).

Chaim:
Yes, your stories from those rebbes and all the rest were addressed numerous times. You still have brought no sefarim to defend the indefensible (because you can’t because there are zero), so you resort to pathetic name-calling like “bullying”. The facts are clear, and the gedolim, including the Gerrer Rebbe, published in writing to that effect.