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yankel berel:
You pathetically imitate my post while bringing zero sources in attempting to defend your idol.
The fact is that Zionism is absolutely both heresy and idolatry, even without the gedolim saying so. But they did say it: the Brisker Rav wrote that Zionism is a kefirah in the entire Torah, not just the oaths (which are also brought by poskim liHalacha, as it happens), as did Rav Elchonon and the Chazon Ish and all the rest.Just in case you actually care for logic which you brought up – every form of Zionism believes in at least two things:
1. Judaism is a Nationality, not (only) a religion, and Zionism is the current manifestation of that Nationality..
2. The Zionist “State” is the Nation-State of that religion.The Torah vehemently disagrees.
You are beyond silly for pretending otherwise.
You can engage in silly disagreements over the nuances, positions and tactics between the Satmar Rav and the rest of the gedolim.
But it is indisputable that Zionism is idolatry, heresy and (therefore) of course against the Torah, despite the nonsense cranked out by Zionists of all types, like the OP posted from one of their “rabbis” here.Just drop the idolatry already, and stop with the abysmally stupid meme that “everyone but Satmar” holds of Zionism, when the reality is that everyone (including Satmar) holds that Zionism is idolatry and heresy.
Koifer BIkur:
The drivel posted in the OP is a disgrace, even to an am haAretz, let alone to a rabbi/tenth-generation Yerushalmi/whatever. But that’s what Zionism and other idolatrous forces naturally do: they make people invent the silliest things in an attempt to defend their idolatry which is, of course, indefensible. Throughout history, there were a few rabbis, far greater than anyone known to be around today, who wrote things even more anti-Torah than the OP’s drivel.yankel berel:
Nobody “shlugged up” the Satmar Rav (though the “Religious Zionist”=Idolaters have made pathetic attempts to do so), and the gedolim also agreed the Satmar Rav on the core issues and more. They differed with him only on minor things like voting in Israeli elections and visiting the Kosel.Of course, none of that is in any way relevant to the nonsense that the OP spewed in attempting to defend Zionism, as Zionism is simply indefensible.
HaLeiVi:
None of them are valid, of course.SQUARE_ROOT:
Why don’t you just hang out on “Religious Zionist” websites rather than polluting this one with more “Religious Zionist” nonsense that is heretical and idolatrous?Aviner’s “answers” (and the rest) should embarrass any “Religious Zionist”.
1. Obviously, the only oath that would not apply with the nations’ permission, if true, is the oath about rebelling against the nations. That permission has zero to do with the other oaths, like aliyah baChoma (ascending en masse) and dechikas haKeitz, taking political rule like the Zionists did. The Balfour Declaration was essentially rescinded, or at least greatly curtailed, by the “White Papers” that followed. Moreover, the reality is that the Zionists terrorized and fought both the British and the Arabs and also then founded their “State” against the express will of the UN. So, the Zionists clearly violated that oath, too.2. This “answer” is even bigger nonsense, only promoted by Zionists like Rabbi Dr. Soloveitchik, Rabbi Kook and Rav Teichtal. But there is no source for their emotional inventions, and (of course) there is no gadol who agreed to their respective nonsense inventions.
3. The Satmar Rav addresses this one, too. It means when it gives its fruits in a supernatural way.
4. Ditto. The oaths are for our benefit, not mutual. He brings numerous examples. The Rambam told the Teimanim then that the oaths are in force despite the terrible oppression they were under. And even if it were mutual, which no gadol approves, that would apply only to the oath of “rebelling”, not the other oaths, like aliya baChoma and dechikas haKeitz. The Zionists flagrantly violated all the Oaths, of course.
5. This is nonsense.
6. Interesting how, as brought in today’s daf, the midrash notes that shevet Efraim who left Egypt early were slaughtered in the desert because they violated the oaths by leaving Egypt early. And there were many other examples of non-Babylonians who were punished for violating the oaths, including a Zionist favorite: Ben Koziva, which caused the spilling of oceans of Jewish blood, far more than even the Holocaust.
7. The Satmar Rav addresses this, too. That was not about these Oaths.
8. There are at least three oaths. Whichever oath you claim applies to only the Temple, obviously has zero to do with the other oaths.
9. The gemara actually uses the oaths as halacha, and the poskim bring it down on the spot, as the Satmar Rav points out.
10. This is a popular Zionist meme. First of all, you have zero source for that assertion. Regardless, aggada clearly shows us what G-d wants, even if it’s written in a deep way. As well, please see #9 and the other points, too.
Based on all this nonsense, “Religious Zionists” violate the oaths which has unimaginably severe punishments associated with those violations.
PS. That’s totally irrelevant. Individual Jews can choose to live in Eretz Yisrael and, if that Mitzva is in fact still available, then they will fulfill that. But that’s for individuals.
So please don’t waste time with “Religious Zionist” nonsense.
Regarding your personal comment, you have zero basis to even think you could argue with a gadol like the Satmar Rav. To try to help you understand, though, I would humbly submit that although Rav Miller points out that there was indeed assimilation and chilul Shabbos in pre-war Europe, Zionism (which started in the late 1800s) was one of the main reasons for that, as Zionism is all about changing Jews and Judaism into godless Nationalists and Zionism. So, if one believed in Zionism, then, in addition to worshiping idols, by definition they did not believe in the Torah. If you didn’t believe in the Torah, then nothing would stop them from doing anything against the Torah, including intermarriage and violating Shabbos. Until Hashem decided to save His people from being lost.
As well, you’re arguing against basic facts. “Ani mattis es besarchem” is the punishment listed for violating the oaths. That’s obviously what happened in the Holocaust. It was literally open season on Jews like never in history.
So please revert to actual Judaism rather than “Religious Zionism” and all its nonsense and heresy and idolatry.
somejewiknow:
It’s not really that the “rabbis” of “Religious Zionism” are fraudulent. It’s that “Religious Zionism” is “a sea of heresy mixed in with a drop of Torah” (Brisker Rav) or “Religion and idolatry biShituf” (Rav Elchonon). They’re just preaching that religion.Questionable:
All the idolaters are trying to justify their genuflecting to their idol. But we all know that it has always been forbidden and always will be until that idol too shall turn to dust.Rocky:
If you do the research as to what EH has done the past five years, you would know that they obviously lied to Rav Gurwicz, just as they essentially admitted they deceived Rav Chaim. See the .com site harehbetzba, which has a well-written PDF on all this. Rav Aharon Feldman has stated that Rav Shmuel Kaminetsky never was happy with the supposed heter from Rav Chaim, especially because they wouldn’t provide it in writing, and reiterated in 2022, two years after the voting abomination five years ago, that he does not support voting.There are zero gedolim supporting violating a century+ of wall-to-wall mesorah absolutely prohibiting joining the WZO even to save lives. See the booklet there.
ZSK:
TiDE is distinctly different from MO TuMA. For one, TiDE has austritt, as Rav Schwab has pointed out. More importantly, it does not elevate anything else as having intrinsic value, unlike the idolatry of TuMA.Idolatrous Zionism has been a part of MO’s (idolatrous) identity since its founder started it. He was the head of Mizrachi, as you know, and has published idolatrous nonsense about Zionism including his “Kol dodi dofek”, which any card-carrying “Religious Zionist” would hold of. No, MO Zionism is not just saying some prayers (which are themselves problematic/heretical, in some cases, as it happens) and sending their kids to learn in Israel. You certainly know better than that, as do others, incidentally.
Your contention about RZ being just about working with what’s there is so absurd that surely even you don’t really believe that. The “Religious” Zionists are generally the most fanatical Zionists of all, much more so than the “Secular” ones. Either way, Rav Elchonon and all the others (including the Brisker Rav who lived in then-Palestine and then also post-State as well,) noted that “Religious Zionism” is idolatry and heresy.
Zionism has two basic assertions that all Zionists believe.
1. The heresy that Jews are a nation like all others, with a common land, language, and culture, as opposed to being a Torah-based people which is the truth.
2. That the “State” of “Israel” is the Nation-State of that mythical Nation.yeshivaman613:
Where is the teshuva from him that we can see? And that original alleged heter from Rav Chaim 5 years ago, upon which lbc”l Rabbi S. Kaminetsky based himself, claimed a “horaas shaah” as Rav Aharon Feldman pointed out.
Regarding your nonsense about not believing in Zionism, first of all, given your stated position, it is very possible that you do even if you don’t realize it.
Regardless, there are numerous problems with joining the WZO/voting in their elections, as all the gedolim have stated, even if you don’t think you believe in any part of Zionism. Oh, and if you look at EH positions and reports from the past five years, they certainly do believe in – and spread – Zionism.ZSK:
The gedolim from the time Herzl SR”Y started this very WZO, absolutely forbade joining the WZO. As recently as 2010, even Rav Elyashiv who worked for the Zionists forbade even the Shas party in the government of Israel from joining the WZO.SQUARE_ROOT:
Rabbi Hoffman cannot rule against all the gedolim who absolutely forbade voting. His assertions about gedolim permitting voting are simply false. The .COM site Hareh Betzba has much more information on this.ZSK:
Are you not capable of understanding the reason for that mention? The core identity of MO includes Zionism which is heresy. That’s a rather significant issue.Yes, Rabbi Dr.’s writings on Zionism are heresy, as Rav Shach wrote in his letters, despite that he wasn’t a messianic Zionist like Rabbi Kook.
Chaim:
Yes, MO do not drive to shul. That’s wonderful. But the Torah still has to “bend” for “Modernity”. Same poison as Conservative.AAQ:
“Most MO Shuls have normative halakha, a Rav and a core group of fully observant people.”
Actually, “Modern Orthodoxy” today is where Conservative was 70 years ago. It is essentially Haskala 2.0. Also, Zionism is heresy and idolatry, and Zionism is a core part of MO identity. So, no, that would not be “full adherence to the Taryag mitzvos”. I guess by “normative halakha”, you mean normative for MO.AAQ:
Ohn be peles was a pretty earnest guy. But he would have died with the rest of Korach’s people had his wife not saved him. Don’t be so sure that you can “carefully study…both sides” and be sure that you can then decide what you want.Unlike in “Modern Orthodoxy, where rabbis are consulted only for what the laymen consider to be “halakhic” questions, in actual Judaism, we have a concept called mesorah. We also have an obligation to “make for yourself a rav” who follows that mesorah. So, when in doubt, particularly when dealing with severe prohibitions like this, one is obligated to ask a competent Rav.
yeshivaman613:
Rabbi Fuerst cannot rule against the poskim and gedolim from prior generations, including Rav Elyashiv and all the rest, going back over a century.During the last WZO election, Rav Aharon Feldman wrote a letter explaining that Rav Chaim never permitted voting in the WZO. Even that fake permit last time was listed as “horaas shaah”. So Rav Chaim never allowed anybody to vote in this election, even if you fool yourself into believing that he allowed it last time.
SB613:
There is no “pro-vote” counter-argument. It’s simply lies, lies and more lies, and some additional deception thrown in for good measure.Rocky:
Go ahead and name those “plenty of gedolim” who hold to vote. You can’t, because it’s not true. Joining the WZO has been forbidden across the board ever since Herzl SR”Y started that heretical organization.It is also simply sheker to imply that it’s “only” Rav Aharon Feldman and Rav Malkiel Kotler who said not to vote. That remains the universally-held position of Klal Yisrael’s gedolim.
lakewhut:
It’s certainly a very far stretch, because Hashem obviously didn’t want it, so it would have been far better without it. Guaranteed.
Regardless, he went beyond founding a “kiruv” movement. He called his pseudo-orthodoxy superior to actual orthodoxy. That’s the biggest problem.mobico:
Would you swear on your life that is the case? You are risking your olam haBa, if you are wrong (which you are).
There are zero gedolim who have supported this abomination, and Rav Aharon Feldman wrote a letter 5 years ago addressing why the alleged heter from Rav Chaim was nonsense.UJM:
They didn’t just “disagree with him” as in “eilu viEilu”. They condemned him for his “innovations” and the like.
Rav Aharon Kotler stated that Rabbi Dr. Soloveichik was responsible for “all the tuma in America”.As to the main point you were trying to make, had he created “Modern Orthodoxy” as a temporary kiruv stage, then that would have been bad enough.
But, instead, he claimed (when creating MO) that only his (Maskilic) way would survive, and “separatist orthodoxy” would become a museum-piece. Of course, netzach Yisrael lo yishaker, as we just read, so his prediction would obviously not be possible, but that is even more obvious in hindsight.
B”H, the opposite has happened (compare the numbers in BMG and other yeshivos versus those in YU, and also note all the “flip-outs” who realize that “Modern Orthodoxy” is absurd, and then go to NIRC or other such yeshivos after being shmaded in YU, and become traditionally orthodox instead of “Modern Orthodox”). BE”H, this will continue to happen until the heresy and idolatry of “Modern Orthodoxy” finally becomes history.
Once again, to all the Zionists with the pathetic stories:
Please stop wasting time, and get back to the OP’s point.“Non Political”
As I recall, your claim was that no poskim bring down the oaths as halacha.
So, I correctly pointed out that numerous poskim indeed do so, as the Satmar Rav brings down and as shown in that thread.Chaim:
Why are you accusing of lies? First of all, the Brisker Rav lived in E”Y, but that’s besides the point. His summoning the Brisker B”D for every title he had to use when addressing Rabbi Kook is documented in the Brisker Rav books, if I am not mistaken.Anyways, we’re making progress, B”H. You went from “eilu viEilu” to “most versus a few”. Please G-d, you will see the truth that Zionism is indeed universally acknowledged as the heresy and idolatry that it most obviously is.
yankel berel and all the Zionists with the pathetic stories:
Please stop wasting time, and get back to the OP’s point.Yes, even gedolim wrote nice titles. They had no choice, as Rabbi Kook was very powerful politically, and they had to deal with him.
Do you know that the Brisker Rav convened his Beis Din for each title that he wrote?As I mentioned numerous times to Chaim, this is why stories are irrelevant. They are subject to interpretation, and could be missing crucial details, like here.
StrugglingBachur:
Businesses need to make money, but there certainly should be chesed organizations who could help bachurim increase their level of kedusha, including sponsoring a filter for them. Maybe some gevirim will get together to make it happen.yankel berel:
It is you who is rewriting both history and facts.The fact is that Rabbi Kook published outright heresy. Period. Whether or not to consider him a kofer is a dispute among the gedolim. But it is simply a fact that Rabbi Kook wrote heresy. Like his soccer player line and much, much more. And that heresy is still polluting (via lectures by students and students of students) countless Jewish souls worldwide.
The Chazon Ish definitively ruled it is forbidden to even sell Rabbi Kook’s “hashkafa” books, let alone read them. It is false to imply that he therefore *approved* in any way of his halacha books.
Regarding the Imrei Emes’s letter and his supposed approval of Rabbi Kook, even that supposed approval was specifically after Rabbi Kook had agreed to retract his heretical writings – a retraction that Rabbi Kook never did, and Rabbi Kook also later claimed that he meant only to retract the “language” which offended simpletons, rather than the “substance”, of his heretical writings. The Imrei Emes, therefore, never approved of Rabbi Kook, and, in response to the Gerrer Rebbe presenting this, Rav Yosef Chaim and Rav Yitzchak Yerucham did not retract their ban against Rabbi Kook because they found his alleged disavowal of his heretical works to be “insubstantial”.
Regarding all three points: Rabbi Kook’s heresy and the Imrei Emes’s letter and your rewriting history, you conveniently omitted the parts of that letter where the Imrei Emes wrote against Rabbi Kook’s heresy (including the Gerrer Rebbe stating that Rabbi Kook is “omer al tamei tahor” and), like where the Gerrer Rebbe stated that for Rabbi Kook “to elevate the [physical] exercise of sinners and to flatter them in a shocking manner, to say to them, “Welcome, ministering angels from on high” – this angers the G-d-fearing to a point that is impossible to imagine.
Non-Political:
Take your pick if you were to read his works, but, off-hand, just this one should do it: Rabbi Kook’s stating that the entire Torah will be revealed through the atheist soccer players whom, Rabbi Kook claimed, will be on a greater level of prophecy than even Moshe Rabbeinu.Non Political:
Of course they are brought liHalacha, as stated. Your laziness to look at VaYoel Moshe or elsewhere is not an excuse for insinuating that others are making things up.See this post here, on these very boards, for example: https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/refuting-the-three-oaths-gimel-shevuot#post-2266950
Chaim:
No, you did not do your job. You did not take the numerous quoted sefarim and ask Rizhin how their alleged mesorah works with or argues with that. The “flip side” is not going to Satmar to ask about your stories about Rizhin; that’s beyond silly. Have Rizhin publish a teshuva that their alleged mesorah disagrees with all the quoted sefarim here and elsewhere including but not limited to Rav Elchonon, the Chazon Ish, the Brisker Rav, the Gerrer Rebbe and all the rest. You can’t, of course.ZSK:
It wasn’t an emotional issue; I (seemingly incorrectly) thought that if I pointed out the obvious fallacies in each of those “arguments” that even Zionists would understand that they were being fooled by their idol. I guess I was wrong about that.No, you don’t have any “mesorah” for Zionism, because there is no such thing. Nobody claimed to be following his rabbeim in promoting Zionism. In fact, Rabbi Dr. Soloveitchik acknowledged that he was breaking from his (rather strong anti-Zionist) mesorah in doing so, and the gedolim did not agree.
My response to Avi K’s nonsense remains, it is your “facts” that are wrong, and you are the one ignoring the facts presented in my perfectly valid IMHO response about. But since you’re so smart, why don’t you take the original sources, including the Satmar Rav (can’t mention his name to Zionists, I know) and Rav Elchonon and all the rest, and ask a talmid chacham to reconcile your alleged mesorah with the plain sourced halachos that they present, even without their own opinions.
Regarding Rabbi Dr. Soloveitchik’s “six knocks” nonsense, I referenced a printed source in which you could see why it is nonsense. Again, you chose to ignore that.
The answer is, as published by the Brisker Rav and signed off by both the Gerrer Rebbe and many others, “Religious Zionism” is “a sea of heresy mixed in with a drop of Torah”, and as published by Rav Elchonon, that Zionism is idolatry and “Religious Zionism” is idolatry and “religion” biShituf. It’s really that simple.
As to your second post:
You are also surely aware that an “ideological dispute” doesn’t cause a gadol to write like that. As Rav Shach pointed out, Rabbi Dr. Soloveitchik was unfortunately influenced by his “external” learning, to the point that Rabbi Dr. Soloveitchik wrote heresy that is shocking to see. That’s well beyond “ideological dispute”. And stories are irrelevant, as noted.I find it amusing (and pathetic) that Zionists ignore all the poskim that bring the oaths and claim they are “only” aggadita and therefore could and should be disregarded because, say, the Rambam didn’t include them in his sefer haMitzvos (for which there are reasons given). Yet, those same Zionists, will go with stories and legends to disregard published halacha simply because of a story that someone learned with someone else or whatever other irrelevancies.
somejewiknow:
Rav Shach would be one. He wrote that Rabbi Dr. Soloveitchik wrote “mamash divrei kefirah ad kidei hishtomemus liMareh haAyin”. He further stated that these were things typically forbidden to write, but that he (Rav Shach) was writing (i.e., repeating) them to show how terrible “chochmas chitzoniyus” causes “siluf viYerida biDaas Torah”. Rav Aharon Kotler stated that Rabbi Dr. Soloveitchik was responsible for “all the tuma in America”, while on that topic.Chaim:
You mistake loyalty to Torah with “arrogance” and “bullying”. Once more, go take all the Torah sources to Rizhin and whomever else you want, and ask them to reconcile your interpretations and stories with those. You obviously won’t do that because your mind is already made up. That’s your business.Also, I quoted multiple sources, unlike you who quoted your stories and factually irrelevant random works, like EHS which is anyways not a serious work due to its circumstances but anyways discussed only settling in E”Y but not Zionism and its political “State” and its wars, etc. So, if anyone is full of hot air, it is not I.
Avi K:
Your wording is disgusting, as you labeled a “canard” an open gemara, which is also brought down by poskim on the spot there and elsewhere.The Satmar Rav and others (conveniently) dismiss all your non-points. In brief:
1. No he didn’t. But we anyways pasken like the oaths, as per all the poskim that bring those as halacha including the Rambam himself in Iggeres Teiman.
2. No, that was not referring to these oaths.
3. See #1. He paskened like them in Iggeres Teiman. You are left with an academic question as to why it’s not in other sefarim too. The Satmar Rav and others addressed that academic question, which is otherwise irrelevant.
4. Nope. See #1. As the Satmar Rav brought down, the Rambam and others held them to be applicable despite “too much” persecution. And even if that were true, the “cancellation” would apply only to the oath of not rebelling against the nation, but not the others of dechikas haKeitz and aliya biChoma, all of which the Zionists flagrantly violated.
5. This is am haAratzus, at best. Assuming that Rav Meir Simcha even wrote that, because it was written with no source, in a “religious zionist” publication, all he allegedy said was that the *fear of violating* the oaths would no longer apply in light of the Balfour Declaration permitting Jews to settle in then-Palestine. So, he never stated that the oaths no longer apply, only that the oath against rebelling against the nations would not be a concern if the nations permit Jews to settle there. But that Balfour Declaration was anyways later retracted, the Brits wrote that the Zionists read much more into it than they had permitted, and, perhaps more importantly, none of this has any bearing on the other oaths, including dechikas haKeitz and aliya biChoma, all of which the Zionists flagrantly violated, as mentioned above.
6. This is beyond am haAratzus. And therefore? The gedolim all disagreed with Rabbi Dr. Soloveitchik’s nonsense/heresy (that’s what it is) in his Kol Dodi Dofek speech of his invented 6 defakos, to which you refer. Any ben Torah can see how his 6 defakos argument is pathetically wrong, especially with hindsight, the benefit of which that Rabbi Dr. did not have. Rabbi Yaakov Shapiro spends a few pages in his book on dealing with that nonsense from Rabbi Dr. Soloveitchik, in case you’re interested. Ayein sham.As Rav Schwab noted, the “Modern Orthodox” are in fact “stale and fossilized” (see #6 above, in particular – he didn’t have the benefit of hindsight, but we all certainly do) and we may not yield even one inch to their “heresy”.
Zionism is factually against Judaism and the Torah, and no amount of “Religious Zionist” propaganda will make it even remotely okay, and there are no source they can bring, as the OP noted.
Chaim:
Yes, they are irrelevant. Go ahead and produce the written teshuva from them supporting Zionism.
The reasons have already been noted multiple times why both Rabbi Kook and EHS are irrelevant.
Zionism is clearly and factually against the Torah. Always was, and nobody of authority holds otherwise.ZSK:
You’re hilarious. But wrong.
Rav Elchonon, the Chazon Ish and all the others are not “Satmar or Brisk”.Chaim:
So ask them how they could have gone against all the gedolim, and also, even more importantly, do they still hold that way or do they realize with hindsight that was (obviously) wrong.Chaim:
Might as well just repeat my prior post below.
Rabbi Kook and Eim HaBanim Semeichah are both irrelevant, as already mentioned above.The biggest problem with you attempting to make Zionism “kosher” is that it so obviously is not, even without any gedolim saying anything about it, also as mentioned above.
The bottom line is that you and others have zero sources to justify the unjustifiable. Period. If you want to be honest, please see the below post, as mentioned.
Prior post:
“I asked a rizyna einkel what they do with the Satmar Reba and they told me there are answers.”
That is pathetic.
There are numerous other gedolim with published writings on the topic which is what you would need to bring them if you cared to get an honest answer rather than rely on your interpretations of stories.Zionism is against the Torah according to all Torah authorities. Period.
AAQ and Square_Root and other Zionists.
The Zionists both caused and contributed to the Holocaust. Period. Game over.
Their idolatrous worshipers, even “religious” ones, then have the audacity to blame the gedolim for what is in fact the blame of the Zionists.Rav Elchonon famously wrote then that the letter’s subjects should emigrate from Europe to the US only if they will not be going into an impossible spiritual sakana, like emigrating via YU instead of via Torah VoDaath, for example.
Recall as well that then-Palestine was in great danger of being invaded by the Nazis, which is exactly what (almost) happened (Rommel). So, that is an additional reason why it was not wise to move to Palestine. In fact, the Brisker Rav did so only because he held that the spiritual (not physical) sakana in Europe was a bigger non-starter than was the great physical sakana in then-Palestine.
Rav Hutner wrote about this in the Jewish media decades ago, perhaps in the Jewish Observer.
But Zionist idolaters aren’t interested in truth; they’re interested only in their idol, which has caused death and destruction, both physical and spiritual, to Jews over a century on a scale never before seen in history.
That anyways wasn’t the topic of this post, though. The topic is the lack of any sources for the Zionists’ impossible attempt to insert their idolatry into the Torah.
Chaim:
“I asked a rizyna einkel what they do with the Satmar Reba and they told me there are answers.”
That is pathetic.
There are numerous other gedolim with published writings on the topic which is what you would need to bring them if you cared to get an honest answer rather than rely on your interpretations of stories.Zionism is against the Torah according to all Torah authorities. Period.
Duvidf:
“the 3 Oaths that are not brought by any traditional halachic authority.”The oaths are brought by many halachic authorities including the Rambam himself in Iggeres Teiman and many others, as the Satmar Rav quotes in his sefarim.
The “Religious Zionist” idolaters don’t like that, and they pathetically try to explain them away, but fail miserably.
ZSK:
There are zero sources that permit the heresy and idolatry that is Zionism. Please attempt to provide those sources here.
Eim HaBanim Semeicha is irrelevant, as noted there, in case that was one of them. Anything from Rabbi Kook is even less relevant, also as noted there.Chaim:
Your assertion that the Satmar Rav was writing only hashkafa and not halacha is not only silly and false, because he was very obviously telling people what you can and cannot do vis a vis the Zionists and its “State”, but that distinction is also a false distinction created by the maskilim; hashkafa is very much part of halacha. Regardless, he clearly wrote both hashkafa and halacha, not just theoretical hashkafa.And, as before, your stories are irrelevant, no matter how many people were there, in part because stories are extremely subjective. A sefer, on the other hand, contains black-and-white instruction and explanation. As mentioned in the other thread, if you wanted to be honest about those stories, you would take the numerous sefarim on the topic to the Rizyners and ask them how your stories about them are reconciled with those writings, and if they actually disagree with those sefarim, which they obviously cannot, as Zionism is indefensible.
SQUARE_ROOT:
Exactly zero gedolim became pro-Zionist after the Holocaust (which the Zionist both caused a to which the Zionists contributed, as it happens).
Some, however, did change their tactics in dealing with these wicked heretics. But the Torah never changes, of course.Non Political:
The Satmar Rav did so decades ago in VaYoel Moshe. Not that the Ramban would any way justify Zionism, regardless.
somejewiknow:
Of course, there is no actual dissent. But many people mistakenly think there is because of a number of factors, including but not limited to.
1. Zionist propaganda is overwhelming, and causes people to be confused about even basics of the Torah.
2. Certain halachic positions of the Satmar Rav, like not visiting the Kosel and not voting in Israeli elections (by Israeli citizens, of course) are, for unknown reasons, not held by other gedolim.
3. Many schools are “non-Zionist”, at least to some extent, and therefore simply do not teach about the heresy and idolatry of Zionism.The above helps give rise to the pathetically false meme that anti-Zionism is strange and only “Satmar” (not to mention Brisk and others).
May Hashem have mercy on all His children and remove all the idols from this Earth with the coming of Mashiach BB”A.
The easiest current work-around seems to be to open a new tab in your browser and then logout/login from/to YWN in that tab. Then, in your original YWN tab, it should accept your comment when you hit submit.
Chaim:
You can repeat that as much as you’d like, but it doesn’t make it any less false than it is. Your interpretation of actions by Rebbes has zero relevance when compared to black-and-white sefarim by the greatest gedolim that Klal Yisrael has had in the past century.If you want to be honest, you can take those sefarim to those rebbes and ask them if they disagree. Looking forward to hearing how that goes.
Square Root:
It’s in the Brisker Rav books by Rabbi Meller; I don’t recall chapter and verse, but you’re welcome to read those and find it there.Yankel Berel:
It would take very long to respond to all of your posts, and you could just resolve this easily by speaking to an LOR.
But Zionism and its “State” are heresy, idolatry and remain no less of the same today as they always were, as all the gedolim stated and as is obvious to anyone not fooled by that idol. The only thing that changed was the tactics in dealing with them.Non-Political and all the other Zionists:
So, basically, the Zionists have nothing to respond.
Zionism is very obviously idolatry and heresy. Period. As the Brisker Rav noted explicitly, its “State” is a violation of the entire Torah.If you don’t like my explanation of how it is obvious, then you’re welcome to find anyone who argues with the Brisker Rav (and all the others).
Chaim:
Yes, your stories from those rebbes and all the rest were addressed numerous times. You still have brought no sefarim to defend the indefensible (because you can’t because there are zero), so you resort to pathetic name-calling like “bullying”. The facts are clear, and the gedolim, including the Gerrer Rebbe, published in writing to that effect.Chaim:
You are defending the indefensible and with zero Torah sources. You also insist on shaming people who were fooled by Rabbi Kasher’s forged KK re: “Aschalta diGeula”, which plain Torah (and now the hindsight of history) shows it very clearly is not.You are also being disingenuous in claiming that it’s only Rav Elchonon or only the Satmar Rav, when it also the Brisker Rav, the Chazon Ish and many other world-class gedolim.
Zionism of all flavors is idolatry, heresy, and indefensible. Period.
Yankel Berel:
As mentioned, no less than the Brisker Rav stated openly that the establishment of the “State” is a kefirah in the entire Torah, and that would be even if the Chofetz Chaim were its Prime Minister. The entire Torah obviously includes all 13.However, anyone can easily see that establishment of any state before Mashiach comes is a violation of at least:
8. The belief in the divine origin of the Torah.
9. The belief in the immutability of the Torah.
12. The belief in the arrival of the Messiah and the messianic era.Hashem said that your are forsworn not to return to the land (certainly not en masse and with force and politically and against the nations – all of which the Zionists flagrantly violated) until I return you to the land.
Non Political:
These are obvious.
#7 is an easy one, as it happens. Rabbi Kook, in one of his many heretical statements he published, and one for which the Gerrer Rebbe specifically called him out, claimed that the atheist soccer players will be on a higher level than Moshe Rabbeinu.
#10 and 11 is also straight out contradicted by the “Jerusalem Program”, as mentioned. Claiming that the Jewish people are dependent on a safe and secure “State of Israel”, as the Zionists believe, is an obvious contradiction to sechar viOnesh.Regarding:
“The fact is that common ancestry (being descendants of Avroham, Yitzchok, and Yaacov), language (Lashon HaKadosh), and land (Eretz Yisroel) are not exclusively components of secular Nationalism but are, in fact, crucial components of our Jewish National identity is probably not lost on HaKatan. I think this is why he makes a point of writing in terms of “The State”. ”The point is that Zionism (including “Religious”) tries to change Judaism into a (godless, for secular flavors) nationalism, and this is heresy and idolatry.
Unlike secular nations, we do not have any of those components to make us a “nation”; rather, we are a people of the Torah (Jewish) religion. Most of us are indeed descendants of the avos. But geirim are not (simply speaking), yet they are also Jews as are descendants of the Avos. Lashon haKodesh is surely unique to us, as the lomdei Torah. But it is not our “national” ancient spoken language. Most Jews today speak the language of their country in which they reside (or Yiddish). Finally, Eretz Yisrael is the land to which we will be restored when Mashiach comes, and even before then there are some mitzvos that we can fulfill only in Eretz Yisrael. But it is not our homeland, birthplace, etc. unlike (liHavdil) the lands of secular nations.
Give it up. Yes, it’s nonsense. Find a sefer from anyone that says otherwise. You can’t.
And EHS was already noted multiple times as irrelevant, including that the Chabad Rebbe Rashab (since you’re such a big fan of rebbes) wrote that the author was very far from Zionism. He advocated living in E”Y, not politically ruling. Regardless, his work on the topic is still irrelevant because, like Zionism, it uses sevaras that are clearly emotional/not demonstrable.
AAQ:
You seem to be making lots of assumptions, none of which are true. Your perspective is also the opposite of Daas Torah, which makes sense as per that Chazal.“Religious Zionists” are of course not what you stated. Rather, as Rav Elchonon wrote, which holds true ever since, the “Religious Zionists” believe in both religion (Torah) and the idolatry of Zionism. They happen to be even more fanatical in their Zionism than are their secular counter-parts, because they worship Zionism “for real”. They literally hold that the “State” and everything about that “State” is holy, a”l.
The “Religious Zionists” have also hurt the chareidim and other Torah Jews in multiple ways, going all the way back. Speaking of teshuva, since you brought it up, one of their rabbis was recently quoted as stating how they need to do teshuva for how they, those rabbis, ignored their own co-religionists (the “Religious Zionist hesder students) who begged them for mercy regarding the impossible nisyonos and shmad in the Zionist army to which the Zionists subjected them, which their rabbis ignored (because the idolatry of Zionism is more important, of course). He also said they (“Religious Zionists”) now should defend the chareidim from the Zionists’ unprecedented assault on the chareidim in drafting the chareidim.
Non Political:
Yes, you’re right, it was self-contradictory. Sorry about the lack of clarity. Of course, it was Hashem who established it in the Torah, while Rav Saadiah Gaon made it more famous (hence the use of the term “established”) that as the Torah principle that it obviously already is. Does that help?We just read this past Shabbos that Hashem made us into a People at Har Sinai stating that we will be a “mamleches kohanim viGoy kadosh”, as opposed to being the Zionists’ active redefinition of Judaism (shared by the “Religious Zionists”, other than the “godless” part) to just another European-type godless nation (meaning common land, language and culture, etc.) whose nationhood is based in the portion of the holy land that the Zionists have invaded (as opposed to our people-hood in fact being based in the holy Torah only – which was given in the desert – as Rav Saadiah Gaon pointed out).
While all the gedolim have written that Zionism is against the Torah (and the Brisker Rav – not only the Satmar Rav – wrote that Zionism/its “State” is against “the entire Torah” – and Briskers are very careful with their words), here you have an open example of Zionism being in violation of multiple of the 13 ikkarim (from Chabad org), including:
5. The imperative to worship G‑d exclusively and no foreign false gods.
7. The belief in the primacy of the prophecy of Moses our teacher.
8. The belief in the divine origin of the Torah.
9. The belief in the immutability of the Torah.
10. The belief in G‑d’s omniscience and providence.
11. The belief in divine reward and retribution.
12. The belief in the arrival of the Messiah and the messianic era.Accepting CH”V the Zionists’ religion (shared by the “Religious Zionists), that Jews are a nation like all others and that their “State” is the Nation-State of that people and that, as the Zionists claim in their (typically Zionist-shmad-named) “Jerusalem Project” that the future of the Jewish people is dependent on a safe and secure State of Israel, easily violated all of the above and more.
The insistence of the Zionists here on sticking to – and promoting – their idolatry on a frum site is beyond shameful and pathetic. Please repent.
yankel berel:
“It is clear that the overwhelming majority of gdolei yisrael disagreed with this satmar proposition.”
That’s a very strong statement to make. You must have numerous sefarim from which you can quote (or at least name!) that indicate what you wrote.Obviously not. All the gedolim agreed as to the heresy and idolatry of Zionism, as elucidated by the Satmar Rav, but some (not all) did disagree on minor points like visiting the Kosel or Israeli citizens voting in Israeli elections.
Zionists should stop trying to defend the indefensible.
yankel berel:
You seem earnest, unlike some others posting here who simply want to parrot nonsense.Rav Saadiah Gaon established the Torah principle that the Jews are a people only through the Torah and not a nation like all others. We literally just read about this yesterday, on Shabbos. This is not merely historical, but no less a matter of Torah than anything else in Torah. Therefore, for the wicked Zionists to contradict that and claim that Jews are indeed a “nationality” with a common land, culture, etc., as the wicked Zionists literally redefine Judaism from what it is to a (secular and godless) nationalist land-based religion, yes, that is obviously both idolatry and heresy.
The creation of the Zionist “State” was according to both the Brisker Rav and the Satmar Rav (and many others, with zero authoritative detractors) against the entire Torah (including against the Oaths), and for multiple reasons.
SQUARE_ROOT and all the other Zionists:
You’re still attempting to defend the indefensible.You haven’t brought even a single sefer to support the idolatry and heresy of Zionism which is the same idolatry and heresy as it was for a century both before and after the Zionists sacrificed rivers of Jewish blood against the Torah (and also common sense) to create (and expand and attempt to maintain) their pseudo-“State”.
Regarding your last comment, in addition to the above, the Satmar Rav continued to publish after the 1950s, including, of course, “Al haGeulah viAl haTemura”. It is both disingenuous and outright dishonest to pretend that the latest anti-Zionist sefer was from the 1950s. So, the dishonesty deserved a special mention.
Chaim, Yankel Berel and the other Zionists: You have quoted no sefarim to defend the indefensible.
Zionism is idolatry and heresy, according to all gedolim, as per their clear published writings, no matter how many stories you bring to try to say otherwise.Eim HaBanim Semeichah is irrelevant for multiple reasons, as mentioned, regardless of how much of a gaon he was.
Rabbi Kook wrote and publicized heresy, as per the gedolim and, again, their published and indisputable writings. It doesn’t matter who his brother-in-law was, and it doesn’t matter who succeeded him and who ate lunch with him. He wrote and published heresy. Period.Still, even both of those, did not allow for fighting and wars, which is exactly what the Zionists did to get their “State”.
Stop trying to defend the indefensible.The Brisker Rav stated that the Zionist state is a kefirah in the entire Torah. Yes, that’s the Brisker Rav. The Satmar Rav points out that among the Zionist State’s numerous problems is that the Zionists intentionally judge Jews with their invented laws that are against the Torah, while Jews are to be subject to only Torah law. This alone is a severe chillul Hashem.
It is a pathetic Zionist meme, which Chaim is also using, to claim that the Satmar Rav is the only one who objected to Zionism and its “State”. It was all the gedolim, including the Chofetz Chaim, Rav Elchonon, the Satmar Rav, the Brisker Rav, the Chazon Ish, Rav Reuven Grozovsky, the Gerrer Rebbe, and more, many of whom lived well past 1948, and some of whom lived under the Zionists, too. (This will trigger likely trigger Chaim’s alleged Rabbi Kook story the Zionists like to say, which is almost certainly not true – but irrelevant regardless – especially because both Rav Berel and Rav Gorelick stated a story just the opposite, that the Chofetz Chaim, upon seeing Rabbi Kook’s writings, stated “Kook shmook”).
It’s also pathetic that you insist on hanging on to your stories, when the idolatry and heresy of Zionism is so blatant. The Jewish people are not a nation like all others. We do not have common land, language, culture and the like as our commonality as do the gentile nations. We are a religion, and a people, only because of the Torah, as Rav Sadiah Gaon noted. Claiming, as all Zionists do, that Jews are a nation like all others and that the State of Israel is the nation-state of that nation, which is the unchanging basic definition of any form of Zionism, is both idolatry and heresy. Period. There is no sefer by any gadol that defends that. Period. Rabbi Kook is irrelevant, as noted, in case you want to argue that he does.
Regarding Rav Aharon Kotler, no, I never agreed to that. I simply noted that even if true that’s irrelevant to the point that Zionism is idolatry and heresy.
Claiming it is aschalta diGeulah is obviously apikorsus, because it is against the Torah in multiple ways, not only one way. One who denies even one letter or even a deRabbanan is a heretic. However, there are shitos that distinguish between labeling someone a heretic versus the heretical beliefs that they have. One does not always denote the other. Therefore, there was room to be lenient and not label Rabbi Kook a heretic despite the clearly heretical things he published.
Zionism is against the Torah according to all Torah authorities untainted by the idolatrous and heretical filth that is Zionism, as those gedolim published clearly and openly. Period. Stop defending the indefensible.