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All the gedolim who spoke and/or wrote about DL, stated that DL is idolatry and heresy. That’s just the facts.
Rav Elchonon wrote in Kovetz Maamarim that Zionism is idolatry, and “Religious Zionism” is religion and idolatry biShituf.
The Brisker Rav wrote, and the Gerrer Rebbe and others signed on, that the DL education is a “sea of heresy mixed in with a drop of Torah”.m.o.m:
That might depend on the community. In general, many communities have community-type BY schools, where they have all types (within the school’s standards). Also, one would think that the larger Jewish communities would have more options. Finally, I am not familiar with the schools, myself, but I thought there is at least one school (in NJ, as it happens) that does have what you describe.There certainly should be resources out there, both general and Jewish. Learning to read the aleph-bais should be covered by any secular learn-a-language type course on Hebrew, since that alphabet is used for Israel’s Modern Hebrew. There are also Jewish resources, like chinuch.org and others.
For example, if the mods allow the link: https://www.chinuch.org/gradetopic/2/KriyahThey must have some special zechuyos. Wow.
Gedol Hador:
That particular ad seemed fairly small on my screen, not a full-page banner, so I can understand why they might not have realized it’s an issue. But I agree that such an ad has no place on a site targeted to men (and women).SBYG:
Sorry to hear of your pain. May the new year ahead, and even sooner, bring you much joy and kol tuv.
I would suggest discussing this with real daas Torah who doesn’t necessarily know you, so you can BE”H get a real answer. Meanwhile, for whatever little this is worth:I think your question is a very fair one, but the answer would likely be that women are holier by nature, and therefore they don’t need those additional mitzvos including learning Torah as do men, and therefore they can raise children and all that even without needing those extra mitzvos. Consider: why would Hashem set up the world that the women raise the children, if women do not have those Torah and mitzvos that only men have, which would mean that, according to what you understood from what you were taught, children will be raised in a highly deficient way? The answer is seemingly that women don’t need those mitzvos, not that Hashem merely exempted women from them because women are so busy. Also, if women did need them, then Hashem would definitely have figured out a way, as you asked, even though they have children to raise. Of course, He would not “short-change” a woman just because she has a job to do! But women obviously do not need them.
A woman is the akeres haBayis, the one who not only raises the children but also helps the husband progress in his avodas Hashem. And she can accomplish all that even without a chiyuv talmid Torah which is a man’s job to do day and night! A woman, therefore, is obviously on a much different level than a man, not just that she happens to have a different job than does a man. That takes tremendous kedusha, something which a man achieves via learning Torah and doing mitzvos, and which a woman seems to achieve with just the mitzvos that Hashem requires of her as a woman
Regarding accepting mitzvos upon yourself like your brother, you’re still making the same commitment to Hashem to follow His ways and do what He wants you to do; your job happens to be different because you are on a different level, as mentioned, even though his commitment is necessarily more demanding. But you both get to the same place; you just start higher. Chazal say, for example, that “Eishes chaveir kiChaveir”. It doesn’t say that she’s a good assistant to him or that she did her job well; it says that she is considered to be like him. That means that the wife of the Vilna Gaon was considered to be like him even though she didn’t learn 24/7 and didn’t come up with all the Torah that he did, etc.
It does not seem that the curse of Chava has anything to do with the above. Notice that it doesn’t say vehu “yisGadeil” or “yisRomeim” Mimeich. It says yimshol. That’s very, very different.
I hope nobody is silly enough to label you a feminist just because you’re asking a very reasonable question (even if my humble answer is not the answer). I would also add that as you grow more and especially once you marry a ben aliyah, the above should become much clearer to you as you live and experience it, BE”H.
Zionist unity:
Zionism was and is the same idolatry that it always has been, and its army is the same (or even worse) Zionist indoctrination factory of shmad as it was then. No, it is a non-starter as all the gedolim stated both then and, lbc”l, now. And the Chazon Ish did not make a “horaas shaah”; he conveyed basic timeless Torah.Much more recently, Rav Steinman (who passed away a few years ago, unlike the Chazon Ish), told a boy who came to him with his father – trying to convince Rav Steinman to tell his father to let him join a “frum” framework in the IDF – that the boy would come out “a total goy” no matter what IDF framework he would attend.
Please don’t mislead.
chaim_baruch:
You wrote: “…over 7 million Jews live in Eretz Yisrael. Perhaps, they should not have come “like a wall or en masse” in violation of one the three oaths? Yes, because it would have made, more sense to die in Hitler’s (yemach shmo) Europe, Stalin’s Soviet Union or all the Arab countries in the Middle East. Oops, our bad. But staying alive supersedes any Aggagdata in Mesechet Ketubot.”
You obviously aren’t being serious (or, if you are, you’re just mindlessly parroting Zionist nonsense and lies). The Holocaust happened because of the Zionists. As well, the Zionists did their part to ensure that Jews burned in Hitler’s ovens because Zionism was and is above all else in the Zionist idolatrous faith. Jews were also doing just fine in the Arab countries until the Zionists invaded the holy land and set the whole region on fire.
As to the “aggadata”, it is brought down liHalacha on the spot by numerous poskim, and the Rambam himself invokes them as halachically binding in his Iggeres Teiman. The Maharal happens to hold that they are yehareig viAl yaavor, as it happens, too.
modern:
You wrote that “Zionism is central to Judaism. And without the “zionist military enterprise” there would be another Shoah and Judaism would cease to exist in Israel.”Would you swear on a sefer Torah that what you wrote is anywhere remotely close to true, or are you just repeating Zionist propaganda?
Actually, the facts are the opposite; funny how idolatry works. Zionism is the polar opposite of Judaism. Judaism is g0d and Torah-based, while Zionism is godless and nationalist land-based. The Zionist “enterprise” caused, and also contributed to, that shoah. Even the Zionists admit that they prioritized Zionism over rescuing Jews in Europe. But that’s not even the tip of that iceberg. Finally, Judaism was doing just fine in Mandatory Palestine until the Zionists invaded.
simcha613:
The same question could have been asked by parents who wanted to know why other parents didn’t feed their children to the molech idol when that idol was in vogue. Regardless, may Hashem please keep your children and all His children safe and well.You also left out the context here that the chareidim are the native Jews of Ottoman-controlled Palestine while the Zionist interlopers chose to invade and fight the British to get them to leave so that they could pretend to have sovereignty and their forever wars as all the gedolim said would happen. The Zionists chose this fight – and against the wishes of the chareidim living there at the time the Zionists invaded – so, the Zionists can send their idolaters to that fight.
Finally, you left out that joining the Zionist army means converting from Judaism to Zionism and being compelled to violate one or more of the gimmel chamuros for which one must give up one’s life rather than violate.
ujm:
The reason the British closed the borders of Mandatory Palestine to Jews during WW II is, of course, Zionist agitation and war and terror against both them and the Arabs. The US and Canada would not mimic the Brits in this regard, then.SQUARE_ROOT:
The Zionist paradise will surely end when G-d decides to do so, even before Mashiach comes according to some. No, that does not mean any harm to any Jews, CH”V.besalel and others:
In no way did I denigrate him, nor did I intend to. Please read what I wrote, instead of falsely accusing (during Elul).
nishtdayngesheft:
Thank you.It’s not unity of Telz and YU, of course. YU is treif, of course.
That Telz allowed a RIETS rabbinic faculty (can’t call him “Rosh Yeshiva”, because that title is applicable only to a Yeshiva, not to anything in YU) to be maspid Rav Ausband has nothing to do with YU.
Other questions like this include gilgulim. If only one of the two come back as a gilgul, then that also adds another spouse to the mix.
I’ve heard that the neshama splits, which would answer all of those.
ReflectiveNotes:
One could ask the same about the Eigel: let’s agree what the eigel should never have been made. But once it was made – and look at all the “achdus” and the miracles of the satan making it literally dance in front of them – what is the point of being anti-eigel? What is the alternative (especially given that the erev rav-influenced nationalists murdered Chur – whom Moshe Rabbeinu specifically appointed in his absence – because he spoke against the idol)? Of course, Hashem didn’t agree, and struck dead all those idolaters.Decades ago, the Satmar Rav wrote that if the Zionists actually cared about Jewish lives, then the Zionists could go to the UN (yes, that UN) and tell them that they want out, and that the UN should figure out a way to keep all the Jews safe there while ending the Zionist nightmare (for Jews). But even if that UN option were no longer true – and nobody can prove that, but even IF it were no longer true – the major point of “anti-Zionism” is to believe in G-d and His Torah and not in idols.
In other words, G-d runs this world and He doesn’t want the Zionist idol and shmad of His children. The Brisker Rav noted that the Zionist State is the greatest achievement of the satan since the eigel. In hindsight of a century of cataclysmic Zionist damage, this is beyond obvious, too. So, the fact that Hashem very much doesn’t want that State is absolutely true, regardless of the illusory power of the Zionists. So, even if there is no practical human alternative at this time, we still are obligated to turn away from idols and to daven to Hashem for a salvation of His choosing in accordance with His Torah, and recognize that He can do anything, including ending Zionism and vastly improving the lives of the Jews there and everywhere – including but not limited to the geulah sheleimah BB”A.
The other related problem is that praying for that idol gives it spiritual power, as our prayers are very powerful. In fact, as the Brisker Rav noted, that’s what caused the idol State to come into being in the first place: because Jews davened for it instead of the geulah. Both he and the Satmar Rav stated that the geulah would have come then, but that they ruined it. The latter writes this in VaYeChi, if memory serves. So, nobody should repeat that mistake. Daven for the geulah, and that Hashem should keep all Jews safe and well always, and never for the idol. It really is that simple.
There’s so much more that could be said on the topic, BE”H, but that should at least be a start.
yankel berel:
We live in the present, including the shmad of Zionism. Clear as day, the collapse of the Zionist entity will happen sooner rather than later. The Chazon Ish said that it would last, what, 50 years? It’s been more than 1.5 times that already, unfortunately. And the Zionists are fighting the lomdei Torah even more so than before.We absolutely cannot support that idolatrous band of thugs, regardless of the political control they appear to have. We have to daven that Hashem save and protect all His children without praying for idols.
Simcha613:
“UJM- “The Zionist State has been the largest cause of anti-Semitic violence, terrorism, war and deaths r”l against the Jewish People ever since the rasha Theodore Herzl announced the Zionist goals and especially every since the rasha David Ben-Gurion and his henchmen established the Zionist Entity.”I think the physical destruction of the Holocaust and the Soviet Union are miles ahead… as well as the spiritual destruction of Western Europe and the US (in terms of intermarriage).”
The physical destruction of the Holocaust was, of course, caused by that same Zionism and Zionists, including the Zionists lobbying governments against allowing in Jews to their respective countries because that was bad for Zionism. And the spiritual destruction of Western Europe and the US is an after-effect/because of that same Zionist-caused Holocaust.
“I never liked calling myself “Zionist” for obvious reasons. However, these days “Zionist” seems to mean “does not want Israel to be destroyed and everyone killed or expelled”. So I guess, much to my great-grandparents (A”H) chagrin, I’m a Zionist in the eyes of the world.”
This is also a big mistake. I am a Jew and therefore don’t want my brethren anywhere to be harmed. It’s that simple. The Zionists, by contrast, are the opposite. They do only what is good for Zionism, just as they did during the Holocaust, of which they were later proud, too.
“I think many ehriche Yidden are sympathetic to Zionism even when disagree with something. I saw one such charedi British rav being asked by not-so-observant Yidden whether he is a Zionist, and he replied “yes, in the meaning of hamechazir shechinato l’Zion”.”
This is pathetic and sick. It’s like if someone asks if you’re a Jews for J member then you say, yes, in the meaning of Jew. Zionism is the total opposite of Judaism and, in fact, exists specifically to change Judaism into Zionism and Jews into Zionists. That’s a total conversion, not merely a political club.
“The Chofetz Chaim says to bring Mashiach we need to love everyone.”
He obviously did not say what you imply, because there is a mitzva to hate certain evildoers, as Dovid haMelech says in Tehillim: “Halo misanecha Hashem esna…tachlis sina saneisim…”.
But sinas chinam is certainly wrong.
akuperma:
There is a mesorah from Har Sinai, of course. And, yes, we do use a different language on a daily basis, as Lashon HaKodesh is both holy and powerful. Hashem created the world with utterances in that language. No, the language obviously does not change.Lying one (DaMo):
Your idol Zionists shmaded the Yemenites even more than they shmaded the other sefardim and other Jews. Your stories are nonsense, as anyone who knows of sefardim including Yemenites would know. The Brisker Rav sent people on Shabbos to save Jews from the Zionists’ clutches.Avi K:
That’s not an evolution of Lashon HaKodesh. That’s a difference in context. The Tannaim spoke Aramaic, as we know, and any mixing in of (formerly) Lashon HaKodesh there, is no different than the way Yiddish mix in (formerly) Lashon HaKodesh there.ZSK:
100% wrong about Zionist shmad? Had you said 20% wrong or even 50% wrong then that might have been reasonable. But 100% wrong? Every single Yemenite who was caught in the Zionists’ clutches is still holding on to his mesorah from Yemen?And you claim to live in the Zionist paradise? Are you really denying the well-known facts about the Zionist shmad of the Yemenites, throwing overboard their tefillin and priceless sefarim manuscripts and then educating them to be Zionists instead of Jews? Some of those, of course, have moved to other countries after becoming Zionist goyim.
I guess your knee-jerk reflexive defense of the Zionist idol is due to your having learned in a “hesder Yeshiva”, which means that you subscribe to “Religious Zionism” which is idolatry according to the Torah greats like Rav Elchonon, the Brisker Rav, etc.
ujm:
The chassidim intentionally corrupted the proper pronunciation as a counter-force to the maskilim. Presumably, this was an “eis laAsos”-type decision by their esteemed leaders. Unfortunately, they have not switched back, even though those maskilim (and their danger) are gone.As mentioned, with the added exception of those whose havara is corrupted by yiddish (or by a real language), everyone does milEil/milRa the same way, as it should be done, if I am not mistaken.
Regarding the other differences, like many sefardim pronouncing kamatz as patach, it is interesting to note that Persians, who have a common “kamatz” sound in their secular language (Persian), do distinguish between kamatz and patach. So, it is obviously a cultural (i.e., Arabic language) influence that corrupted the general sefardic havara to lose the distinction between kamatz and patach (and the same idea by Ashkenazim who do not distinguish between alef and ayin).
Teimanim have the most number of distinct letter sounds of all, including our English “th” sound – which makes sense as their mesorah was intact from after Bayis Rishon until the Zionists viciously shmaded them – but they also seem to be influenced by their native culture in their not distinguishing between kamatz/patach, if I am not mistaken.
But, again, the point is that Lashon HaKodesh absolutely does not evolve, as G-d made that exactly as He wanted.
Achdus with reshaim is forbidden and is damaging to the soul. Darkei Shalom is very different than achdus; darkei Shalom could be used by gentiles, too, with whom there also is obviously no achdus.
Regarding reshaim, Dovid HaMelech wrote in Tehillim: “Halo misanecha Hashem esna…”
Real achdus is among G-d-fearing Jews, not reshaim who are, at most, irrelevant.I don’t recall ever agreeing with Avi K before, but his point here seems valid. If you want to speak Yiddish because of its long-time use and all that, then that’s one thing. But there are real problems with Yiddish-izing lashon haKodesh, especially how yiddish tends to be largely mil’eil while Lashon haKodesh has many words that are milra.
For example, using the typical mil’eil pronunciation of Yiddish, people mispronounce words like the first word in shema after the two initial declarations, by stating viaHAVta eis instead of ViAhavTA eis.
How people speak Yiddish is not a real concern. Yes, languages can and do evolve; that’s fine. But not lashon haKodesh. G-d made that the way He wanted it. If you improperly pronounce Lashon HaKodesh when davening and laining – if that’s improperly influenced by Yiddish (or for any other reason/culture/whatever) – then that certainly is a concern.
yitzchokm
The terms for a poster who posted that would be “leitz” and “malshin”.simcha613: When the Zionists first began their invasion a century or so ago, the Jews living in then-Palestine, including Rav Yosef Chaim Sonnenfeld ZT”L, begged the Zionists to go away and to stop inflaming the Arabs and causing the Arabs to hate Jews (thinking that other Jews are Zionists). The Chevron Massacre is a good example of this; the marauding Arabs murdered the talmidei chachamim (non-Zionists, of course) in the Chevron Yeshiva because their European features made the Arabs conclude that they, too, were Zionists who were threatening their Al Aqsa – as opposed to the sefardim in the town whom the savages did not touch because they knew that the sefardim there were not Zionists.
Actually, it was the Zionist provocations that caused those very white papers, and the borders to be closed, of course. Think: the British had recently issues the Balfour Declaration, which was rather magnanimous, even though, as they noted, the Zionists read far more into it than they intended (and wrote). The whole point was to allow Jews a safe haven in then-Palestine under British control. So, why would the British then follow that up with the White Papers? The answer, of course, is Zionist provocation of the Arabs. Had the evil Zionists not invaded, the doors would have remained wide open. There also would not have been a Holocaust, in the first place, if not for Zionism, but that’s a separate related point.
Your kefirah about the gimmel shevuos is, of course, disgraceful. The Maharal stated that they are indeed yeHareig viAl Yaavor. It’s also abysmally stupid to violate those oaths (and to mock the same) given what Hashem said he would do – and unfortunately did – in response. But to answer your question, even Rabbi AY Kook was against establishing a State via war. The few Rabbanim in Agudah who (unfortunately) gave their tentative approval to such a “State” did so only on a number of conditions including that it would be fully peaceful, not forever wars as all the gedolim for a century predicted Zionism would be.
In writing that “The World gave us a state when the British left and then the new state was invaded by the Arabs.”, you’re simply parroting Zionist lies and propaganda. What actually happened, as written above, was that the Zionists terrorized and fought against the British, forcing them to leave, and then blatantly disregarded the UN directive that they were going to start a new Mandate there by founding their “State” and started their first of many wars with the Arabs. This included the Zionists attempting to take Jerusalem, also explicitly against the UN which told the Zionists that Jerusalem should be an international city, which caused the British-trained Jordanians to enter that war, which caused the deaths of even more Jews on the altar of Zionism and also the loss of access to the Kosel Maaravi.
SQUARE_ROOT:
Your recent reply to my post in this discussion is based on three things:
[1] Denial
[2] Ignorance
[3] ZionismThis is nonsense, as some have already noted, as the Zionists invaded against the wishes of the Jews there and have shmaded and impoverished generations of Jews. But the topic itself is also inaccurate. The greatest supporter of Torah in the world – even before the Zionists further impoverished the Jews under its unwanted control – is, instead, Russian President Vladimir Putin.
All the tired pro-Zionist nonsense is really pathetic.
“The Satmar Rav didn’t hold of his own Torah because he tried to live there and supposedly said to vote in municipal elections?” He never said you can’t live there (of course you could – as per the shevuos). Municipal elections have zero to do with “National” Elections. This is ridiculous.DaMoshe, I am of course not a navi, but both the Satmar Rav (on vaYechi, if memory serves) and Brisker Rav stated explicitly that Moshiach would have come back then if Jews had prayed for that instead of the idol State.
simcha613:
As they say in learning, “boich sevaras” are just that, all the more so when they go against the Torah.
The Brisker Rav stated that nothing can help Klal Yisrael other than fulfillment of the Torah. And the whole Zionist disaster has been extremely anti-Torah in numerous ways.Kibbutz galuyos does not mean Jews returning to E”Y against the Torah. And, as for your sevara’s logic, there is, of course, nothing stopping Hashem from ejecting all those Jews from the land. Many are anyways living in hotels, as it happens, thanks to the Zionists’ latest war and overall disaster. You could also say sevaras just the opposite of yours, because we say twice per day how Hashem said he will eject sinners from His land.
The quotes are likely nonsense, regardless of in what book they appeared.
As emesayid pointed out, many people thought that the general political atmosphere conveyed a sign that Hashem was about to bring the geulah. The truth is that He was, except that people prayed for the Zionist State instead, so that’s what He gave them. So sad.SQUARE_ROOT:
That doesn’t make your earlier inaccurate assertion about the Kosel any less misleading.Besides, the reason for those restrictions imposed by the British was, of course, Zionist terror, wars and agitation (all pre-1948 – never mind the endless wars from then on) that destroyed the peace there.
This same Zionist agitation also compelled the British to limit immigration into then-Palestine during WW II, about which the Zionists of course knew (as the source of the troubles) and despite which the Zionists still lobbied governments against allowing in Jews to their countries then.
DaMoshe:
“Modern Orthodoxy” is today’s haskala, as it happens.
Also, real chassidus is, of course, not “feel-good Judaism”, as anyone who has learned chassidic Torah can attest.SQUARE_ROOT:
Actually, until the Zionists went against the Torah (and endangered countless numbers of Jews), and against the nations, in making their “State” in 1948, Jews did indeed have access to the Kosel.Unlike the “Modern Orthodox” who detract from the Torah by adding on their heresies to the Torah (Kol haMosif gore’a), Torah Jews gain immense spiritual fulfillment in the full richness of the Torah (minus the parts for which we need the geula and Beis haMikdash, of course), as much as they are capable of achieving. There is also tremendous unity among Jews, when discussing those loyal to the Torah, as opposed to the heretics and their movements like Zionism.
“Meh. There’s no “void” within Modern Orthodoxy…”
Rav Schwab noted decades ago, even then, that “Modern Orthodoxy” was stale, stagnant and fossilized. Rav Aharon Kotler noted that its founder was responsible for “all the tuma in America”. Given that it adds idolatrous and heretical appendages to the Torah, like but not limited to Zionism, there is very much a “void” in “Modern Orthodoxy”, which is why many “Modern Orthodox” kids go to Israel and “flip out” and become frum rather than “Modern”.Justask
Zionism is idolatry. Idolatry is not rational. This praising and even worshiping the Zionists is also, of course, irrational.Gadolhadorah:
Who needs missionaries and other groups as adversaries when he have more than enough adversaries in the form of Zionism?
“EY” is not defending anything, and is no danger. It is instead the Zionist “State” is at war, as always, and as the gedolim predicted a century ago that would happen.Sam Klein: Easy there on the reflexive pro-Zionist genuflecting. His post was not at all sinas chinam, and it was not any type of sina and not against any Jew at all, for that matter. But since you brought up the problem of Mashiach being held back, that would be due to the Zionists and their “State”, of course, as the gedolim have written and as is fairly obvious to anyone who looks at the world from the perspective of Torah rather than, liHavdil, Zionism. May Hashem have mercy on all His children.
LerntminTayrah
Let’s rewrite that to reflect reality: What is it about Zionism that causes people to post pro-Zionist nonsense on so many threads? It’s like bashing Shabsai Tzvi and Jacob Frank during their respective times. Zionism is very much a current disaster for Klal Yisrael.Square Root:
What I wrote was absolutely true.From a spiritual perspective, Zionism is a heretical and idolatrous godless (unlike any Christian movement) land-based nationalist replacement theology for Judaism that claims to be the real Judaism – which is therefore far worse than Jews for J. It is strong in its State and that cancer R”L L”A has spread throughout the world. The actual damage done by Zionism to Jews and Judaism is orders of magnitude greater than Jews for J and all the rest.
From a physical perspective, Zionism has already caused (and then made worse) the Holocaust, and Jews around the world, including those on American College campuses, have been endangered simply due to Zionism and its endless wars.
No, the attempted point about the ancient break-off kingdom of the then tribes was not at all a valid point, as the navi told Yeravam that he would be appointed king over the new kingdom that would split from malchus yehuda – as opposed to the Zionists who rebelled against G-d in founding their “State” (and even Rabbi Kook never sanctioned violence to achieve a State). See how simple is that distinction?
It’s ironic that Zionist always bring up the teshuva movement there without acknowledging that the Zionists intentionally destroyed the Judaism of those Jews in the first place, after which that teshuva movement was and is then needed.
You could keep going, but you’re simply attempting to defend the indefensible.
DaMoshe:
The ruler is not the point; the “State” and its ideology are the point; there has never been an ideology as poisonous and heretical as Zionism which redefines Jews and Judaism from Torah-based to idolatrous Nationalist land-based gentile-wannabe. Not even Yeravam ben Nevat went anywhere near that low. But the Zionist “State” is anyways forbidden by G-d, etc. unlike the ancient kings and their kingdoms.SQUARE_ROOT:
Let’s rewrite that to reflect Torah and reality, rather than Zionism.In our times, there is a large organized movement (Zionism, of course) to endanger and commit shmad against all Jews, starting with the Jews in Eretz Yisrael, but not ending with them.
Anyone who publicly supports the Zionists is becoming a de facto ally of that large organized movement to endanger and commit shmad against all Jews, starting with the Jews in Eretz Yisrael, but not ending with them.
Therefore, anyone who publicly joins the Zionists becomes a rodaif and a mosair, because he joins himself to those people who work to endanger and commit shmad against all Jews.
lakewhut:
Not quite. The Zionists are much more like the meraglim, as the Zionists are the ones who insist that G-d can’t protect Jews without Zionism and its weapons. Shockingly, some frum Jews even believe this heresy.DaMoshe:
The big difference, of course, is that G-d made them kings and gave them a kingdom, as opposed to the Zionist “State” which has zero halachic legitimacy even as a secular State.SQUARE_ROOT:
The obvious reason for the creation of yeshivos in the Zionist State – despite the Zionist invasion of the area and the Zionists’ harassment of Jews there – is that millions of Jews have moved there since then. Makes sense: millions of Jews living somewhere means that there will be lots of yeshivos there.The obvious reason for the celebrated baal teshuva movement after the Zionists’ ordinary and non-miraculous military victory in 1967 is that the Zionists had shmaded all those Jews for decades prior. It would have been far better had the Zionists not shmaded them and for the baal teshuva movement to thus not have been needed.
The fact is that Israel’s wars were all by choice, especially the early ones as the Satmar Rav and others have written in their sefarim explicitly. The Zionists could also have gone to the UN and asked for a new mandate (against which the Zionists would not terrorize and battle, unlike the one they forced to end so that they could make their “State” in 1948).
Your playing the achdus card is perhaps the weakest argument of all. Achdus is under the banner of Torah, not violating it in any way including not joining with reshaim and not violating “lo sihye acharei rabim liRaos”. As well, it is actually the opposite. As the Brisker Rav, Satmar Rav and others noted, the Zionist State is actually holding back the geulah. So, as long as people worship that idol, we will need that much more rachamim from Hashem for Mashiach to come.
Last but not least, it is extremely obvious that YOU SIMPLY HAVE NO VALID ARGUMENT.
Sincerely.
Unlike the others, the Zionist State has the additional “advantage” of being an idol (or at least part of an idol), and is also halachically not considered a State, like for dina diMalchusa dina. That’s in addition to the Zionist blasphemous and offensive lie that it is the “Jewish State” (both parts of that quote are false, as it happens, though the Jewish part is a far greater lie), as you pointed out.
Chaim87:
Zionist propaganda remains Zionist propaganda. That applies to their “wars”, which were all by choice including their war of “independence” which was against the will of the gentiles who wanted to start a new UN mandate instead, which the Zionists nixed – by force. It also applies to the apologetics about the oaths and all the rest. They’re brought liHalacha by the Rambam himself and by numerous other poskim and gedolim throughout the generations. Changing the Torah because of Zionist propaganda about Holocaust survivors will also not work, especially since it was the Zionists who both caused and contributed to that Holocaust, like lobbying governments against allowing Jews into their countries. So, no, it was not a random “nobody wanted them”; in galus, other than the Zionists interfering in the Holocaust, there was always a place to which Jews could move when one country became non-hospitable.