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Chaim:
You can repeat that as much as you’d like, but it doesn’t make it any less false than it is. Your interpretation of actions by Rebbes has zero relevance when compared to black-and-white sefarim by the greatest gedolim that Klal Yisrael has had in the past century.If you want to be honest, you can take those sefarim to those rebbes and ask them if they disagree. Looking forward to hearing how that goes.
Square Root:
It’s in the Brisker Rav books by Rabbi Meller; I don’t recall chapter and verse, but you’re welcome to read those and find it there.Yankel Berel:
It would take very long to respond to all of your posts, and you could just resolve this easily by speaking to an LOR.
But Zionism and its “State” are heresy, idolatry and remain no less of the same today as they always were, as all the gedolim stated and as is obvious to anyone not fooled by that idol. The only thing that changed was the tactics in dealing with them.Non-Political and all the other Zionists:
So, basically, the Zionists have nothing to respond.
Zionism is very obviously idolatry and heresy. Period. As the Brisker Rav noted explicitly, its “State” is a violation of the entire Torah.If you don’t like my explanation of how it is obvious, then you’re welcome to find anyone who argues with the Brisker Rav (and all the others).
Chaim:
Yes, your stories from those rebbes and all the rest were addressed numerous times. You still have brought no sefarim to defend the indefensible (because you can’t because there are zero), so you resort to pathetic name-calling like “bullying”. The facts are clear, and the gedolim, including the Gerrer Rebbe, published in writing to that effect.Chaim:
You are defending the indefensible and with zero Torah sources. You also insist on shaming people who were fooled by Rabbi Kasher’s forged KK re: “Aschalta diGeula”, which plain Torah (and now the hindsight of history) shows it very clearly is not.You are also being disingenuous in claiming that it’s only Rav Elchonon or only the Satmar Rav, when it also the Brisker Rav, the Chazon Ish and many other world-class gedolim.
Zionism of all flavors is idolatry, heresy, and indefensible. Period.
Yankel Berel:
As mentioned, no less than the Brisker Rav stated openly that the establishment of the “State” is a kefirah in the entire Torah, and that would be even if the Chofetz Chaim were its Prime Minister. The entire Torah obviously includes all 13.However, anyone can easily see that establishment of any state before Mashiach comes is a violation of at least:
8. The belief in the divine origin of the Torah.
9. The belief in the immutability of the Torah.
12. The belief in the arrival of the Messiah and the messianic era.Hashem said that your are forsworn not to return to the land (certainly not en masse and with force and politically and against the nations – all of which the Zionists flagrantly violated) until I return you to the land.
Non Political:
These are obvious.
#7 is an easy one, as it happens. Rabbi Kook, in one of his many heretical statements he published, and one for which the Gerrer Rebbe specifically called him out, claimed that the atheist soccer players will be on a higher level than Moshe Rabbeinu.
#10 and 11 is also straight out contradicted by the “Jerusalem Program”, as mentioned. Claiming that the Jewish people are dependent on a safe and secure “State of Israel”, as the Zionists believe, is an obvious contradiction to sechar viOnesh.Regarding:
“The fact is that common ancestry (being descendants of Avroham, Yitzchok, and Yaacov), language (Lashon HaKadosh), and land (Eretz Yisroel) are not exclusively components of secular Nationalism but are, in fact, crucial components of our Jewish National identity is probably not lost on HaKatan. I think this is why he makes a point of writing in terms of “The State”. ”The point is that Zionism (including “Religious”) tries to change Judaism into a (godless, for secular flavors) nationalism, and this is heresy and idolatry.
Unlike secular nations, we do not have any of those components to make us a “nation”; rather, we are a people of the Torah (Jewish) religion. Most of us are indeed descendants of the avos. But geirim are not (simply speaking), yet they are also Jews as are descendants of the Avos. Lashon haKodesh is surely unique to us, as the lomdei Torah. But it is not our “national” ancient spoken language. Most Jews today speak the language of their country in which they reside (or Yiddish). Finally, Eretz Yisrael is the land to which we will be restored when Mashiach comes, and even before then there are some mitzvos that we can fulfill only in Eretz Yisrael. But it is not our homeland, birthplace, etc. unlike (liHavdil) the lands of secular nations.
Give it up. Yes, it’s nonsense. Find a sefer from anyone that says otherwise. You can’t.
And EHS was already noted multiple times as irrelevant, including that the Chabad Rebbe Rashab (since you’re such a big fan of rebbes) wrote that the author was very far from Zionism. He advocated living in E”Y, not politically ruling. Regardless, his work on the topic is still irrelevant because, like Zionism, it uses sevaras that are clearly emotional/not demonstrable.
AAQ:
You seem to be making lots of assumptions, none of which are true. Your perspective is also the opposite of Daas Torah, which makes sense as per that Chazal.“Religious Zionists” are of course not what you stated. Rather, as Rav Elchonon wrote, which holds true ever since, the “Religious Zionists” believe in both religion (Torah) and the idolatry of Zionism. They happen to be even more fanatical in their Zionism than are their secular counter-parts, because they worship Zionism “for real”. They literally hold that the “State” and everything about that “State” is holy, a”l.
The “Religious Zionists” have also hurt the chareidim and other Torah Jews in multiple ways, going all the way back. Speaking of teshuva, since you brought it up, one of their rabbis was recently quoted as stating how they need to do teshuva for how they, those rabbis, ignored their own co-religionists (the “Religious Zionist hesder students) who begged them for mercy regarding the impossible nisyonos and shmad in the Zionist army to which the Zionists subjected them, which their rabbis ignored (because the idolatry of Zionism is more important, of course). He also said they (“Religious Zionists”) now should defend the chareidim from the Zionists’ unprecedented assault on the chareidim in drafting the chareidim.
Non Political:
Yes, you’re right, it was self-contradictory. Sorry about the lack of clarity. Of course, it was Hashem who established it in the Torah, while Rav Saadiah Gaon made it more famous (hence the use of the term “established”) that as the Torah principle that it obviously already is. Does that help?We just read this past Shabbos that Hashem made us into a People at Har Sinai stating that we will be a “mamleches kohanim viGoy kadosh”, as opposed to being the Zionists’ active redefinition of Judaism (shared by the “Religious Zionists”, other than the “godless” part) to just another European-type godless nation (meaning common land, language and culture, etc.) whose nationhood is based in the portion of the holy land that the Zionists have invaded (as opposed to our people-hood in fact being based in the holy Torah only – which was given in the desert – as Rav Saadiah Gaon pointed out).
While all the gedolim have written that Zionism is against the Torah (and the Brisker Rav – not only the Satmar Rav – wrote that Zionism/its “State” is against “the entire Torah” – and Briskers are very careful with their words), here you have an open example of Zionism being in violation of multiple of the 13 ikkarim (from Chabad org), including:
5. The imperative to worship G‑d exclusively and no foreign false gods.
7. The belief in the primacy of the prophecy of Moses our teacher.
8. The belief in the divine origin of the Torah.
9. The belief in the immutability of the Torah.
10. The belief in G‑d’s omniscience and providence.
11. The belief in divine reward and retribution.
12. The belief in the arrival of the Messiah and the messianic era.Accepting CH”V the Zionists’ religion (shared by the “Religious Zionists), that Jews are a nation like all others and that their “State” is the Nation-State of that people and that, as the Zionists claim in their (typically Zionist-shmad-named) “Jerusalem Project” that the future of the Jewish people is dependent on a safe and secure State of Israel, easily violated all of the above and more.
The insistence of the Zionists here on sticking to – and promoting – their idolatry on a frum site is beyond shameful and pathetic. Please repent.
yankel berel:
“It is clear that the overwhelming majority of gdolei yisrael disagreed with this satmar proposition.”
That’s a very strong statement to make. You must have numerous sefarim from which you can quote (or at least name!) that indicate what you wrote.Obviously not. All the gedolim agreed as to the heresy and idolatry of Zionism, as elucidated by the Satmar Rav, but some (not all) did disagree on minor points like visiting the Kosel or Israeli citizens voting in Israeli elections.
Zionists should stop trying to defend the indefensible.
yankel berel:
You seem earnest, unlike some others posting here who simply want to parrot nonsense.Rav Saadiah Gaon established the Torah principle that the Jews are a people only through the Torah and not a nation like all others. We literally just read about this yesterday, on Shabbos. This is not merely historical, but no less a matter of Torah than anything else in Torah. Therefore, for the wicked Zionists to contradict that and claim that Jews are indeed a “nationality” with a common land, culture, etc., as the wicked Zionists literally redefine Judaism from what it is to a (secular and godless) nationalist land-based religion, yes, that is obviously both idolatry and heresy.
The creation of the Zionist “State” was according to both the Brisker Rav and the Satmar Rav (and many others, with zero authoritative detractors) against the entire Torah (including against the Oaths), and for multiple reasons.
SQUARE_ROOT and all the other Zionists:
You’re still attempting to defend the indefensible.You haven’t brought even a single sefer to support the idolatry and heresy of Zionism which is the same idolatry and heresy as it was for a century both before and after the Zionists sacrificed rivers of Jewish blood against the Torah (and also common sense) to create (and expand and attempt to maintain) their pseudo-“State”.
Regarding your last comment, in addition to the above, the Satmar Rav continued to publish after the 1950s, including, of course, “Al haGeulah viAl haTemura”. It is both disingenuous and outright dishonest to pretend that the latest anti-Zionist sefer was from the 1950s. So, the dishonesty deserved a special mention.
Chaim, Yankel Berel and the other Zionists: You have quoted no sefarim to defend the indefensible.
Zionism is idolatry and heresy, according to all gedolim, as per their clear published writings, no matter how many stories you bring to try to say otherwise.Eim HaBanim Semeichah is irrelevant for multiple reasons, as mentioned, regardless of how much of a gaon he was.
Rabbi Kook wrote and publicized heresy, as per the gedolim and, again, their published and indisputable writings. It doesn’t matter who his brother-in-law was, and it doesn’t matter who succeeded him and who ate lunch with him. He wrote and published heresy. Period.Still, even both of those, did not allow for fighting and wars, which is exactly what the Zionists did to get their “State”.
Stop trying to defend the indefensible.The Brisker Rav stated that the Zionist state is a kefirah in the entire Torah. Yes, that’s the Brisker Rav. The Satmar Rav points out that among the Zionist State’s numerous problems is that the Zionists intentionally judge Jews with their invented laws that are against the Torah, while Jews are to be subject to only Torah law. This alone is a severe chillul Hashem.
It is a pathetic Zionist meme, which Chaim is also using, to claim that the Satmar Rav is the only one who objected to Zionism and its “State”. It was all the gedolim, including the Chofetz Chaim, Rav Elchonon, the Satmar Rav, the Brisker Rav, the Chazon Ish, Rav Reuven Grozovsky, the Gerrer Rebbe, and more, many of whom lived well past 1948, and some of whom lived under the Zionists, too. (This will trigger likely trigger Chaim’s alleged Rabbi Kook story the Zionists like to say, which is almost certainly not true – but irrelevant regardless – especially because both Rav Berel and Rav Gorelick stated a story just the opposite, that the Chofetz Chaim, upon seeing Rabbi Kook’s writings, stated “Kook shmook”).
It’s also pathetic that you insist on hanging on to your stories, when the idolatry and heresy of Zionism is so blatant. The Jewish people are not a nation like all others. We do not have common land, language, culture and the like as our commonality as do the gentile nations. We are a religion, and a people, only because of the Torah, as Rav Sadiah Gaon noted. Claiming, as all Zionists do, that Jews are a nation like all others and that the State of Israel is the nation-state of that nation, which is the unchanging basic definition of any form of Zionism, is both idolatry and heresy. Period. There is no sefer by any gadol that defends that. Period. Rabbi Kook is irrelevant, as noted, in case you want to argue that he does.
Regarding Rav Aharon Kotler, no, I never agreed to that. I simply noted that even if true that’s irrelevant to the point that Zionism is idolatry and heresy.
Claiming it is aschalta diGeulah is obviously apikorsus, because it is against the Torah in multiple ways, not only one way. One who denies even one letter or even a deRabbanan is a heretic. However, there are shitos that distinguish between labeling someone a heretic versus the heretical beliefs that they have. One does not always denote the other. Therefore, there was room to be lenient and not label Rabbi Kook a heretic despite the clearly heretical things he published.
Zionism is against the Torah according to all Torah authorities untainted by the idolatrous and heretical filth that is Zionism, as those gedolim published clearly and openly. Period. Stop defending the indefensible.
yankel berel:
You’re making things up and speculating about Rav Elconon and his printed sefer, and no gadol would agree with any of your revisionist and imaginative statements. As well, you’re claiming that just because in your mistaken opinion he was wrong about keeping Torah and educating children in the Zionist “State”, that therefore the rest of what he stated doesn’t apply. This is of course absurd.As he stated, Zionism is idolatry, and “Religious Zionism” is simply idolatry and religion biShituf.
Regarding Rav Aharon Kotler and looking out for the welfare of Jews everywhere, is nothing new. The Brisker Rav and Chazon Ish also held that the “State” needed to be dealt with to whatever extent and in whatever ways. All of that has zero to do with the bottom line that Zionism is idolatry and heresy against the Torah according to all. Period.
No, Chaim, I meant “THE” gedolim. I’ve also quoted sefarim from those gedolim.
There were zero big gedolim who supported Zionism, despite your constant insistence about the same, and you cannot bring even one sefer that says so.
Zionism is obviously against the Torah. Period.yankel berel:
The Steipler definitely did not allow for that possibility of it being aschalta diGeulah, of course, only that someone (back then) who mistakenly believed that is not to be labeled a heretic.There is a machlokes whether someone who believes in heresy must necessarily be labeled a heretic or not. So, even if he is not labeled a heretic for believing that, still, that belief is heresy. And even according to those who do not distinguish between the two, that belief is still absolutely mistaken and against the Torah (even if not at the level of heresy).
ZSK:
You might be surprised about your assumptions. Regardless, the facts are what they are. The gedolim publicly and explicitly and in writing labeled as idolatry and heresy all forms of Zionism, including “Religious Zionism”. There is no defending the indefensible.Chaim:
For the umpteenth time, stories are irrelevant. They are subject to memory, interpretation, and more. Stories cannot come close to answering black-and-white sefarim, of which there are none that support the heresy and idolatry of Zionism including Eim HaBanim Semeichah which is anyways irrelevant for multiple reasons.Regarding your nonsense about Zionist wars needing to have been fought, if you read what the gedolim had to say on the matter (and the plain history), you would see that you are wrong about that, too. The Zionists have been fighting wars for over a century, and definitely did not need to to do so. The world – and Jews in particular – would have been far better off and with far more peace were it not for Zionism and its endless wars and sacrifices of rivers of Jewish blood (including in the Holocaust, but even besides for that).
yankel berel:
It is not I who read that into Zionism, but the greatest gedolim of the past century.Even your formulation of “its [Israel’s] success equals the success of its inhabitants” is heretical.
Hashem “runs” the Jewish people on sichar viOnesh, unlike the major Zionist heresy in their “Jerusalem Program” that “the future of the Jewish people is dependent on a strong and secure State of Israel”. Therefore, He – alone – determines the success of Jews everywhere.It’s also silly. For example, there are millions of Jews in NY. Nobody ever dreamed of supporting NY “because of all the Jews who live there”. They recognize that Hashem runs the world, and that He will look after His children in whichever country/state/city that they live. As well, the Zionist “State” is not a legitimate “State”, as per halacha, and most of its inhabitants live in the land about which the Torah writes: “Hashem’s eyes are always on it [the holy land]”. So, it is beyond silly (and idolatrous) to support that idol and its “State”, when its very purpose and active goal is to destroy Judaism.
Regarding that “medinah” serving as a “reminder to some of the diaspora Jews not to assimilate”, even if there was any truth to that (I highly doubt that it helps), it is far outweighed by the intentional assimilation/shmad of its own citizens, including the forced assimilation/shmad of the chareidim whose lives the Zionists ruined a century ago and have not stopped since and by the idolatry and heresy of Zionism that it spreads throughout the world.
Square Root:
None of your sources have anything to do with Zionism. If anything, those are all sources against Zionism, as Zionism is the greatest defilement of the holy land.Chaim:
Your stories – and especially your interpretations of the same – are irrelevant, as noted.You cannot bring even one source that contradicts the Satmar Rav, Rav Elchonon and all the rest who wrote openly and explicitly that – not only secular Zionism but also – “Religious Zionism” is idolatry and heresy.
As it happens, even Rabbi AY Kook did not allow war/fighting to achieve his nationalist and Hegelian goals, and he died well before the Zionists sacrificed thousands of Jews on the idolatrous altar of Zionism. Rabbi Kook also did not quote any sources supporting his superimposing those foreign values unto the Torah, which is why Rav Yosef Yedid mockingly called him a navi in his sefer’s piece titled “Regarding a heretic about whom we need to protest”, the Gerrer Rebbe wrote that Rabbi Kook “ruled al tamei tahor” and all the rest.
Zionism has zero roots in our Torah, as proven by many gedolim. Stop the misinformation.
yankel berel:
Nope. Plain logic indicates that it is meakev the geulah, but that’s besides the point.
The Brisker Rav stated the same, that if not for the Zionist “Independence”, the geulah would (not just could, but would) have happened at that time. So, it is not a “daas yachid” of the Satmar Rav.
Chaim, your stories are irrelevant, as noted.
And trying to prove that working for them implies any sort of acceptance of Zionism is even more foolish.In MiaKatovitz Ad 5 Iyar, the author noted how Rabbi Kasher forged his “kol korei” with the big reishis tzemichas lie. As it happens, Rav Ovadiah quoted that Kol Korei not knowing that it was a forgery. The Satmar Rav called Rabbi Kasher “the biggest treifa”.
His opinion then was the “urgent need”, as you called it, to move to E”Y, with permission of the nations, and very much also not to politically rule there.
No, you can’t “keep on going”, because you haven’t brought any sources and there are no others because those don’t exist. Please go ahead and source them.
Zionism of any flavor is idolatry and heresy. Period. No matter how many siyumim anyone makes.
Chaim:
There is zero source for Zionism in the Torah, as mentioned. Other than people whom the gedolim recognized as deviant, and who anyone with half a brain should realize the same, there is no sefer that comes close to claiming any such thing. But the greatest gedolim vehemently condemned the obvious heresy and idolatry that is Zionism. Period.Your stories about some Rebbe making a party on some day or whatever are totally irrelevant. There is zero Torah authority that permits Zionism, which should be obvious to any thinking Jew.
Chaim:
Back to your other question:
Of course the “mesiras nefesh” of Zionist soldiers does NOT at all make them holy. What kind of silly and heretical question is that (it’s because of Zionist idolatry, of course)? One has zero to do with the other. The Torah defines what is and is not holiness. IDF service is the exact opposite of holiness, of course.AAQ:
The confusion seems to be yours. Zionism did not stop in 1948 or even 1967. Zionism is what drives the Zionist “State”. Its parliament members speak about whether something they are debating is or is not Zionist. Etc.Chaim87:
Rav Elchonon and all the gedolim wrote that “Mizrachi”/”Religious Zionism” is idolatry (and heresy). That makes the answer to your question obvious, despite your refusal to accept the Torah’s indisputable view, as written above: while these particular ones may be very well-meaning, they are of course not “holy fine Jews” if they violate the inviolable prohibition of A”Z. What kind of silly question is that?And, again, no there absolutely nowhere in the Torah that allows for any form of Zionism, as the gedolim wrote and as should also be obvious to any Jewish child untainted by Zionist idolatry.
yankel berel:
Why do you write foolishness? “The allure of Zionism has lost its appeal.” Really? Mizrachi and “Religious Zionists” worship this molech god with human sacrifices even more fanatically than do their secular counterparts. It has not lost its appeal, unfortunately. And on this very board you have people claiming that they are good frum Jews just like anyone else. Many Jews unfortunately believe the Zionist lie that Jews are a “nation” like all other nations and that the Zionists represent that mythical nation. That itself is a tragedy, even without all the Zionist shmad and other Zionist attacks on G-d, His Torah and His people.And as Daas Yachid pointed out, the Satmar Rav was not a “Daas Yachid” re: Zionism except for specific measures including not visiting the kosel and Israelis not voting in Israeli elections.
Chaim87:
You’re reaching new lows attempting to defend the indefensible.
The name being the same as Rav Rhines’ yeshiva doesn’t change that Zionism is treif and Rav Elchonon did not allow emigration to a spiritual makom sakana but held that YTV was not a spiritual makom sakana.No, there is zero source for Zionism having its roots in Torah CH”V. That’s simply absurd.
You wrote:
“Can anyone deny that many hesder boys are fine frum Jews?”Yes, all the gedolim, from Rav Elchonon to the Brisker Rav and all the rest denied exactly that, despite your inability to read their plain text stating exactly that. Rav Elchonon, for example, wrote that “Religious Zionism” is A”Z and religion “biShituf”. That’s exactly what it is, no matter how many siyumim they make. That’s the sad reality.
But you know better than all the gedolim.
SQUARE_ROOT:
I just noticed the end of your comment where you hilariously claimed that, if not for the Zionists, there would be only three yeshivos today in the territory controlled by the Zionists in and around the holy land.First of all, Mashiach would have come by now, if not for the Zionists. See the Satmar Rav’s Divrei Yoel on VaYechi and also the Brisker Rav in his biography books. Second, if not for the Zionists, who fight G-d, His Torah and His people, there would obviously be far more yeshivos there, just as there has been an explosion of new yeshivos in the rest of the world.
It’s pathetic how Zionists are so attached to their idol that they lose all sense of logic.
anon1m0us:
“Kol HaPosel…”You are being motzi laaz on Rav Elchonon. He never forbade moving to America. He advised against doing so via the agency of specific “Modern Orthodox/Religious Zionist” “yeshivas”, and instead advised doing so via Torah VoDaath.
Chaim just posts the thing over and over no matter what anyone writes.
A machaa must be made over his statement about gedolim wanted a “homeland” in E”Y. Ch”V, as that is against the Torah. E”Y is not a homeland. It is a powerful tool that could be used to grow closer to Hashem and perform mitzvos there that cannot be done elsewhere. It is not a “homeland” like the Zionist claim.
This nonsense about post-Zionism is just that. Rav Chaim pointed out that while people like this poster think that the Zionists shmad in order to get a State (which is terrible in and of itself, of course), the truth is that the Zionists need a State in order to shmad. The evil Zionists are actively doing so today, even more so than in the past, like in the drafting yeshiva students and in their overall war on G-d and His Torah including denying their citizens even the very basics of Judaism like shema yisrael…
Rav Elchonon and others wrote that “Religious Zionism” is the same idolatry as their secular counterparts but that the “Religious” ones mix in religion to that idolatry. No, there is no mesorah for “Religious Zionism”, and you cannot bring any sefarim that support your heretical claim. Zionism of all stripes is idolatry and heresy, as our gedolim have consistently noted for over a century, regardless of how much or how at all they dealt with the Zionists pre-State and post-State.
ZSK:
Chazal’s dictum of “Kol HaPosel…” comes to mind.
The “Religious Zionism” is actually much worse today than it was a century ago because they are the most fanatical and idolatrous Zionists, much more so than their co-religionists the secular Zionists because the “Religious” ones superimpose the Zionist idolatry and heresy onto, liHavdil, the Torah.Your last statement is silly. By your “logic” we are all CH”V “messianists”, as in Jews for J, because we all believe in Mashiach.
Zionism means, at a minimum, the idolatry and heresy that Jews are a “nation” – as opposed to the truth that we are a religion only – and the big Zionist lie that the Zionist “State” represents Judaism and the Jews. No, believing in שיבת ציון does not at all make one a Zionist. Why do you write things to confuse innocent people?besalel:
I don’t get why people make up nonsense. Of course the Zionism of a century ago still exists. The Zionist “State” is exactly that: Zionist.
Read their official platforms, their IDF training manuals, look at what goes on in their schools, etc. etc.And look at how the Zionists are fighting like never before against the chareidim including the yeshiva students whom the Zionists want to convert from Judaism to Zionism by forcing them into the Zionist army.
Zionism is idolatry and heresy. Read Rav Elchonon, the Chazon Ish, the Brisker Rav and all the others (not to mention the Satmar Rav) who wrote about Zionism, including well after the “State” was founded.
Imagine if a large percentage of Jews were R”L L”A believers in Jews for J. Of course, Jews who claim fidelity to only G-d would be absolutely horrified and would need to drill the point that it is not at all okay to also be a believer in Jews for J.
Now, in reality, Zionism is infinitely worse. Zionism is heretical, in addition to being idolatrous (like Jews for J), and is also a replacement ideology for Judaism. Yes, given that Zionist propaganda and idolatry is so utterly pervasive, it is of utmost importance to be crystal-clear and strong that Zionism (the indefensible idolatry and heresy that you routinely attempt to defend here) is absolutely treif.
A valid daas yachid would be, for example, the Satmar Rav regarding vising the kosel or Israelis voting in elections. These are things that gedolei Torah do, but that the Satmar Rav held was wrong. That’s an example of daas yachid, not, lihavdil, some maskil or whatever else who claims – with no Torah source even attempted – that foreign ideology is really Judaism.
“And if he’s honest, he’ll admit so. He was just raised in a Mizrachi environment and chose the opinion of the Yechidim like Rav Kook & Rav Soloveitzik over the many others who disagreed with them.”
Rabbi Kook and Rabbi Dr. Soloveitchik did not have valid Torah opinions, as per all the gedolim, who condemned either their opinions and/or themselves. In fact, the gedolim stated things like (Rav Shach, about one of those, in this example) “mamash divrei kefirah ad kidei hishtomemus liMareh ayin”.
AAQ:
You have it backwards. It is the “Religious Zionists” and “MO” that have divided themselves into their own group of idolatry and heresy, just like all the other heretical sects throughout history. Conservative Jews also keep lots of mitzvos. It’s that simple.Kuvult:
If memory serves, Rav Hirsch notes that it’s the zecher of amaleik, meaning any remnant of their practices and values, that is the issue. That, not genes.Even Rabbi Dr. Soloveichik of Boston admitted that the cause of the immense Arab hatred towards Jews in the holy land is the Zionist idol and its “State”.
Chaim:
You keep repeating the same nonsense that people were Zionists and therefore Zionism is not kefirah. Zionism is kefirah. Period. There are no two ways about that. It so happens that a certain gadol was very happy when the State was established, but when he read from the Satmar Rav about it, he told him that you convinced me and I was wrong. So, yes, that is called confusion on their part and no, it is not revising history. And therefore you shouldn’t take stories from the 1940s as your gospel. As the Brisker Rav stated, “the State they have managed to achieve is the greatest triumph of the Satan since the eigel”. That means that it was indeed confusing then (and still is now for many, including you). Rav Frank was not Zionist. Even Rav Elyashiv, who worked in rabbinics for the Zionists, protested vehemently against Shas joining the WZO, calling that a nevallah. So, no, he also was not a Zionist. You just keep throwing around names with no documentation and no proof.Again, the letters and sefarim by gedolim against Rabbi Kook are public, were published, and you can find them if you choose to do so. Rabbi Kook wrote kefirah, and it’s being spread until today, and it is unquestionably and undeniably kefirah. Like the soccer player line that they will be on a greater level of prophecy than Moshe Rabbeinu and that the entire Torah will be revealed through them. The Gerrer Rebbe wrote specifically against that line.
AAQ: “I do not see anything in this piece except a confirmation that a number of gedolim were publicly respectful to R’Kook and unverifiable personal stories that they were not respectful in private.”
It’s the opposite, of course. There are private stories that they worked together in public (so, because they appeared together, that must be they were BFFs…), but numerous public sefarim and letters that condemned either Rabbi Kook himself and/or his writings.
At the recent Zionist rally in D.C., you had rabbis attending a rally while a Christian minister (and Zionist idolaters including agents of Zionist “government” shmad) addressed that rally. Would anybody be so silly as to claim that every rabbi there really held of the Christian minister (and the Zionists)? Obviously not.
This is all nonsense.
AAQ:
I don’t understand why this is a question of them being “frightened”. This whole premise seems silly. They were not frightened of him, of course.Since he had political power, and at some point they needed his assistance to annul some Zionist shmad or whatever it was, they had no choice but to use respectful titles when addressing him. If people choose to take that over every published sefer and letter from across the spectrum that severely condemned either him or his works, or even to claim that it makes it that some did hold and some did not, then they are obviously fooling themselves.
A separate point is that it’s very possible that certain people didn’t know about Rabbi Kook’s heretical works and that’s why they seemed to have “held of him”.
Bottom line is that his works are available to read, and the shocking kefirah therein is still exactly that, and the many gedolim (not just rabbis, but genuine masters of Torah and only Torah and without outside influences) over the decades severely condemned either him and/or his works, including in writing, some of which have been mentioned. It is silly to respond with stories about how x wrote nice titles to him.
Regarding the American side, the three may have worked with each other but, again, that doesn’t mean that Rav Moshe would have allowed public gemara lectures to women, while Rabbi Dr. Soloveichik taught them himself. Nor does it mean that Rav Moshe (and, liHavdil, Rabbi Dr. Soloveichik) would have allowed their official writings to claim that their predecessor was atzmus uMahus in a body. Not at all. Instead, it means that they had a working relationship for when that was needed, not that they in any way approved of him. Rav Aharon Kotler stated that Rabbi Dr. Soloveichik was responsible for all the tuma in America. Yet, Rav Aharon also worked with him, when he felt it was needed. Same idea with Rabbi Kook. I don’t understand why this is so difficult to understand.
Chaim87:
Your refusal to educate yourself does not change the reality. No, it’s not “whitewashing”; that’s what you’re doing.
Of course, they could have – and many did, in seforim and elsewhere – oppose Rabbi Kook. But when they needed his services, they addressed him as was needed.Again, read the sefarim from the Satmar Rav, read the documented public letters from the Gerrer Rebbe and the Brisker Rav (on which many others signed, too). No, there are not two sides to the frum world about Zionism, and there never were. There were certainly many Jews who were confused by Zionism early on – and still today, like you – but the gedolim then knew even decades before the “State” was founded that Zionism was a non-starter and evil. Again, there are sefarim on this, even from then.
I am intentionally omitting the source of this, for hashkafic reasons:
“In 1900, just three years after the First Zionist Congress, a book called Ohr Layesharim was published by ultra-orthodox activists in Warsaw. This book articulated a firm rejection of Zionism…contained dozens of letters condemning Zionism, written by a broad spectrum of the most prominent rabbis of the era, including Rabbi Chaim Soloveitchik of Brisk, and Rabbi Sholom Dovber Schneersohn of Lubavitch.Antipathy towards Zionism, and particularly towards Zionist leaders, formed the backbone of the Haredi attitude during the pre-state era…each with their own approach – such as Agudath Israel, who were willing to work with Zionists without formally recognizing them as authentic representatives of Judaism, and others, such as the Munkatcher Rebbe, Rabbi Chaim Elazar Shapira, who would not contemplate showing Zionism or Zionists any kind of recognition or even acknowledgement – broadly speaking, the Haredi world maintained its stance, namely, that Zionism was created by heretics, and therefore, in every iteration, it continued to be an outgrowth of heresy.”
somejewiknow:
I appreciate it.Rav Yedid points out that it’s possible that a “ruach shtus” overcame Rabbi Kook (due to his being “mekushar kvar im ruach haZman, as the Gerrer Rebbe wrote, or for whatever other reasons), which is what lead him to write (and speak) as he did, but, regardless, and this is the point, the content of those writings is heretical and absolutely unacceptable no matter what he was or wasn’t.
I would also point out that this is not merely academic. First, his writings are being actively promulgated worldwide, not just published in some books if someone wants, which is bad enough. Second, there were physical consequences, even then, to his embrace of nationalism (to which the Gerrer Rebbe referred), like what lead to the Chevron Massacre.
AAQ:
The gedolim of his time, who needed his services as “Chief Rabbi”, obviously had to address him as he expected.
The link describing the Brisker Rav as mentioned above, if the mods allow the link, is: https://yoel-ab.com/katava.asp?id=130
That link also mentions that Rav Chaim Brisker, even back in Europe, did not believe that Rabbi Kook fasted the many fasts that he was reputed to have fasted. It also notes that the source (which Chaim here loves to quote), about how the CC protested against those against Rabbi Kook, is none other than Rabbi Kook’s son Rabbi TY Kook.The gedolim who did not need Rabbi Kook’s services were vehemently against him and referred to him as a “Navi”, like:
Rav Yosef Yedid in “ענין אפיקורוס שצריך למחות עליו”.If the mods allow this link: https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=22671&st=&pgnum=441
It’s a long piece, and worth reading.The Satmar Rav labeled him with all sorts of names like “michabel biKerem Hashem” and much, much more. Both the Satmar Rav and Rav Elchonon Wasserman (in Kovetz Maamarim) labeled Rabbi Kook a “rasha gamur”, based on two different pieces (one each) from Rabbeinu Yonah.
AAQ:
Rabbi Kook was politically powerful. Therefore, when gedolim needed to deal with him, they had to address him as he expected. The Brisker Rav convened a beis din for every single title that he gave to Rabbi Kook when he sent him a letter. Same idea with the Chazon Ish.But why look at stories? Look at sefarim kedoshim by gedolim that address the terrible things that Rabbi Kook wrote.
Chaim87:
No, the Chofetz Chaim and the others did not hold of him. Anyone who reads his works can see very clearly that he said things that were blasphemous. Like the soccer players being on a higher level in prophecy than Moshe Rabbeinu. As the Gerrer Rebbe wrote (documented), this angers the religious to a degree that is impossible to imagine. The Gerrer Rebbe and others also signed on to the Brisker Rav’s published letter that “Religious Zionist” education is a “sea of heresy mixed in with a drop of Torah”. Please educate yourself.SQUARE_ROOT:
Nothing about what I wrote is in any way indicative of Hamas and Hezbollah, despite your Zionist idolatrous take on the same. But the modern Amalekites actually are, of course, the Zionists, as Rav Elchonon quoted from the Chofetz Chaim. Please stop spewing Zionist nonsense in these boards. Surely, Arutz Sheva or something would be very happy for you to do so there.Chaim87:
False. Rabbi Kook, who died well before the “State” was formally created, held specifically of non-violence and imagined that the nations (and Arabs) would welcome the Zionists in their takeover and invasion. That didn’t happen. That’s besides for all the gedolim who severely condemned either him, his anti-Torah writings or both, which means his alleged view is anyways irrelevant.Zionism is shmad. Period. Zionism’s core and purpose is changing Jews and Judaism to Zionists and Zionism. It’s that simple. Therefore, no matter what promises the Zionist make about letting the frum Jews there “preserve their identity”, it’s just a smokescreen. Yes, they might or might not still wear the same clothes as before when the Zionists are done brainwashing them in their army. But the Zionists will do all they can to accomplish their core heresy and stated goal of changing these Jews into Zionists.
And calling this hasmonean is a rich irony (but absolutely par for the course) coming from the Zionists who are way worse than the hellenists against whom the real hasmoneans fought.
All the gedolim who spoke and/or wrote about DL, stated that DL is idolatry and heresy. That’s just the facts.
Rav Elchonon wrote in Kovetz Maamarim that Zionism is idolatry, and “Religious Zionism” is religion and idolatry biShituf.
The Brisker Rav wrote, and the Gerrer Rebbe and others signed on, that the DL education is a “sea of heresy mixed in with a drop of Torah”.m.o.m:
That might depend on the community. In general, many communities have community-type BY schools, where they have all types (within the school’s standards). Also, one would think that the larger Jewish communities would have more options. Finally, I am not familiar with the schools, myself, but I thought there is at least one school (in NJ, as it happens) that does have what you describe.