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I didn’t know that adherence to Halacha = “ludicrous”
And yes Halacha is uncompromising.
Gavra,
Could be that is a better argument. It is being told to the press however they cut and paste as they see fit.
My brother in law is in Shacahr.(a unit for married charadi men who work in the army offices, not in the field, and go home at the end of the day and are home shabbosim) The nachel Charadai examples were all in the press and from friends of his. My brother in law would drop the army in a second if that is what Rav Steinman tells him to do so.
In the meantime anyone who asks him if they should join the Sachar unit he tells them no because of all the problems he has encountered and that is even before the current anti charadi theme.
Charliehill you write
“When you are in the IDF you no longer follow the halachic rulings of the community you are from; you follow the IDF’s rulings. And you don’t call your former rav to ask whether you should obey an order”
And is the ESSENCE of the issue at heart! Charadaim believe Torah and what their Rav says come first not what the army says…..
ok you don’t have to believe me.
Halacha is not only things like eating chazzir. It is being forced to hear women singing and not being allowed to daven Mincha just because that is what the commander decided and yes being told to do things that are mechalal Shabbos (agreed the commander thought it wasn’t mechalal Shabbos but even when told he refused to budge). and no the army does not go out of the way to get mehadrin food. Many soldier in the nachal were stuck with nothing for Shabbos and when the charadaim from Kiryat Sefer got organized to get then food for Shabbos the commander decided they cannot take the food. (this story was in the charadi press at the time)
But then again I can’t make you believe something you don’t want to.
GAW and ROB
You REALLY have NO IDEA of what goes on here. even the nachal hacaradi is being forced to do thing against Halacha (again I have inside information from my brother in law)the promises made before joining the army are not kept to because when in the army we can change the rules whenever we want we don’t have to keep promises. The Rabbi who started the Nachal hacaradi has come out against it because promises are not kept! and BTW the hesder units have the same issues.
ROB I assume you too don’t live in Israel. When you move here and go to the army – we can talk again.
No one said Gimmel is against working people. Where do you get that from? (Remember I live in EY , am part of the Charadai community and even vote Gimmel)What they are against is going to the army because what goes on there is ??? (I have two brother in laws in the army, one of them in a charade unit)
Also most arabs are not against suicide bombers (read the PA school books and curriculum) and The dati Leumi movement is not judged but the price tag elements.
Please get your facts right
No isn’t above belt.
And I fail to see the ?? ????? here. Charadiem hate the extremists as well and have NOTHING to do with them. you are placing us all in one box.
Most Frum Yidden do not hate Charaidim, Certainly those who are Lomdei Torah and Shomeri Shabbos don’t. They might hate the extremists (and perhaps rightfully) but not the Charadaim as a whole.
The funding is what bothers us the least! (BTW the funding is only a very small fraction of the Israeli budget)
Just let us live our lives as we see fit. Don’t force us to sit through women singing (the hesder boys in the army) or to teach my children English (BTW I send them privately but if I don’t want to?) or tell me how many children to have (and no, I don’t expect the government to support them) As long as I am not harming anyone why cant you let me live in peace?
You claim you have the answer but, I am afraid that while we do have a lot to work on , your answer is a very small fraction. For as long as there are Yidden there will be anti Semitism and as long as there are Frum Yidden there will be hatred towards the Frum Yidden.(for the same basic reasons) This has been, unfortunately, proved throughout history.
??? ??? ???? ????? ????? ??? ?????!
Also FYI, 40% of Charadi males work and pay taxes in Israel. and 80% of female Charedim work and pay taxes. So to say we don’t contribute at all is ridiculous.
And comparing The charadiem to the Arabs who harbor terrorist is really below the belt!
And I would like to point out that as you don’t live in Israel you rely on the press and have no idea of what is ACTUALLY going on. As I said before unless you actually live here you are NOT ABLE to understand what is going on.
BTW, today the finance committee was against the proposed cuts (which will probably go into effect anyway) because it effects many Chilonim as well. see the link you sent me! And while you are at it read the last paragraph.
Sorry, it isn’t only for Charadiem. Plenty of Dati leumi and even Many Sephardi Chilonim have large families. Is there anything exclusively for Charediem as you implied?
It is basically impossible. If your parents are Israeli they make you get an Israeli passport (not make Aliyah but be a citizen) the only way I know out is to spell your last name differently (in Hebrew) then your parents and even then they can catch on. If you are a male the problem is worse because of the army.
In Any case Behatzlacha
Gavra at work,
Most Charidim denounce the extremists ,you just don’t here about it in the papers because it is not popular. It is much more popular to talk about those crazy charidim who spit. And how are we supposed to police them? by getting into fist fights with them? by spiting on them? by throwing eggs at them?
You can police them as well as me and there is a reason you don’t do it!
It is beyond me why you feel so threatened by Charidiam. Did I miss something the Charedi members of Knesset did these past years?
Yes, the charadim do have exclusionary towns, I am not sure what that has to do with power as most of those towns were set up when the charadiem were not in the coalition. Anyways, no-one wants the Charidim in Ashdod or Kiryat Yovel or Beit Shemesh. they are quite happy the charidim have their own towns.
Where is the special funding? – I would like to go get some as I have a large Charedi family.
the Ponavaz Rav said we shouldn’t rely totally on the funding of the government as they will boot us one day so now his ????? is coming true. And believe it or not, it doesn’t bother me as much as the anti charidi attitude out there. did you hear that there is a proposed law that you cannot have separate seating at weddings and someone who enforces it will be subject to a year in jail? or the fact that we should be forced to donate our organs in a case of brain death (against Halach) unless we state otherwise? even if our family objects.
IS that is what you want in a Jewish state?
I am sorry you see this as a war on you as a dati leumi person because it isn’t(!) I grow up in the charadi system and have kids in the charadi system and that is not what they are hearing
Throw rocks, spit and hate the DL) In any case you say it is a war so now you know exactly how we feel except you see it as a war against you. WE SEE THIS AS A WAR AGAINST TORAH!!!!
Challenging a chazal in order to gain understanding is not an apikoros but simply someone who wants to understand.
I would assume it is assur but you can always try to contact Shuli Rand the actor and producer of the movie to ask him.
Gavra at Work,
Yes Halacha has no problem with men and women sitting in the same room but at the same time if that is what people want then why not/ after all non charidim do not go to the clinics the charidim go to. I find it much more disturbing to go to a secular clinic with my kids and be forced to watch TV because there is nowhere(!) to sit without a screen in front of your face but does anyone stop that?
Also, most Charaidim do not spit, burn busses or pass laws to exclude(I would like an example for that one) in fact I find your post here and in other places most offensive in generalizing the Chardai population. sort of like “if all Jews were like you I wouldn’t hate Jews”. I have relatives whose children learn in the school who had a girl spat on and they are quite clear (as the majority of the parent population in the school) that these are extremists that do not reflect the majority of the Charaidim.
And yes they are trying to destroy Yiddishkeit – note what the Dati Leumi Rabbis and head of Yeshivot are saying!
Shraga18,
As someone living in Israel and in a similar situation as you, I totally agree with you. I have two frum brother in laws in the army who agree that this government is doing all in it’s power to erase Torah!
I don’t think that our brothers in the diaspora are ABLE to understand the magnitude of what is happening here. To them what is wrong with X, Y or Z? But the problem is, the entire picture that is evolving here. The incitement that is going on here against the Frum Jews is simply unbelievable.
Rationalfrummie- You write:
“why is it okay for that to happen in Israel but not America?”
For the simple reason that that is what the people being served by the clinic want. If you would have it in Williamsburg for the Satmar community would the government have a problem with it? Would the supreme court say it is illegal? It is simply a matter of supply and demand.
Gavra ar work,
Most Charedim will happily give up the “gelt” as you put it in order to listen to the Gedolim and not go to the army. In fact, in addition to the share the burden law there are MANY ways the government is cutting back (more so then the general population)on what is given to the charadim including education.
What I am saying is that the Gedolim are saying: now (a time of Tzara) is not the time to help at home but rather to learn.
That is what HKBH wants.
“Asher HaRipayon Bahem Rav”
See what I wrote:
That on Friday and Shabbos there is less learning because people are helping at home etc.
Also the request is for the Rashei Yeshivot “??????” to awaken their students to take on more learning, not for them to “be in charge”!
NO, She clearly quoted the Brisker Rav. She is the daughter in law of one of the previous generation’s gedolim and as such I did not question her source (which she probably gave but as it was 20 years ago I don’t remember the source and yes I remember correctly as I too was shocked!)
As to the statements about the Egal Hazhav,I personally don’t see the ?????. Zionisim is an Egal Hazahav and the way the zionists treat the state is an Egal Hazahav. However once the state was established the Rav saw it as a retarded child.
As a Charedi who lives in Israel I resent the reading between the lines. Most People learning in kollel take it VERY seriously, much much more than a job! That on Friday and Shabbos there is less learning because people are helping at home etc
What Rav Steinman is saying is that we need to put in EVEN MORE. This has always been the case that in the times of Tzara HKBH is sending us messages to improve.
BTW I am female and my husband works I just see what is going onn around me. OH and I read the original in Hebrew
OK so here is what I learned in Beis Ya’akov in Eretz Yisroel in our history lessons about the establishment of the state:
After the state was established the Brisker Rav said “The state of Israel is a smile from the Kadosh Baruch Hu. Just like we are happy when HKBH gives us a mentally handicapped child. True the state is mentally handicapped but is a child of Hashem”