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Yesterday I saw some cute little kids with curly little payos crouching on the pavement outside an apartment building, working busily with colored chalk. Their turbaned mother watched with their plump baby sister in her lap. I felt sorry to see them stuck in the city on a sweltering hot summer afternoon, and happy that their mother was able to take a small break and keep them content and occupied.
Then I found WIY’s strange post.
???
Wow, you say, pou_b?
I was thinking more along the lines of…
Meh
Interesting that this thread is called, “Blame the shadchanim.”
Everyone is searching for places to place the blame for their problems with shidduchim. We have the age gap theory, the vile vicious mothers of boys theory, the ridiculous useless resume theory, and now- the incompetent unreasonable shadchan theory.
Anyone with a functional brain and moderate reading skills perusing some of the posts above, will buy the complaining singles a mirror and say, “Ladies & gentlemen, the fault lies not in your shadchanim, but in yourselves.”
I noticed a typo in oneoutofthree’s comment on j m h’s post. I would like to offer a correction:
Just my hapence: +1000000000000
Finally, someone said just what was necessary.
And said it beautifully.
So you’re not leaving?
HaKatan,
I would like to go on the record as publicly protesting and expressing my distress at your quoting the phrase, “ViHakesef …” with regard to a decision by the Roshei Yeshiva of Ponevez.
How dare you presume to understand their decisions and thought processes.
musser z, calm down a little.
Ponevez Yeshiva does indeed fly the flag every Yom Ha’atzmaut. Whether they fly it “proudly” as you state, or just stamm fly the flag for reasons other than being proud of Medinat Yisrael (the political entity, as opposed to the geographic and/or spiritual location) is open to debate.
Flying the flag, however, is not the same as celebrating Yom Ha’atzmaut as a Yom Tov- by reciting Hallel with Shem u’Malchut, refraining from reciting Tachanun, etc. This is no doubt what the Chazon Ish ZT”L and others objected to.
Not sure where a flaming Mangal fits in. Tzarich iyun.
This thread is getting boring.
And so not fun!
-just wait for the (boring) grammatical expositions on that line-
Suggestion- Let’s delete everything & go back to the beginning.
nfgo3 had the absolute best comment ever.
Let’s take it from there.
YES
I think she’s not alive anymore.
And since she was not a shadchan, a troubled teen, a maharat, a creative chef, a pseudo health care professional dispensing pseudo medical advice, nor even a member of SUC, she is unlikely to elicit much attention or enthusiasm in the YWN CR.
As you may have noticed.
Sorry, now you stumped me!
Sorry jewishn; unless you can tell us exactly where we can see that the Ibn Ezra said what you think he said, this thread is going nowhere.
Hi younglady! Understood.
But just thought I’d let you know (since I am no longer a young lady, and have most likely been asking rabbis questions for years and years more than you) rabbis are SO NOT clueless! About anything. You wouldn’t believe the things they know all about, makeup included. And when they’re not sure what you’re asking about they’ll be so interested to ask you all the right questions just so they can help you figure out what to do in a particular circumstance. The one time I stumped a Rabbi (!!!) with a question about an obscure, old-fashioned kitchen appliance that came with my very first apartment, he kindly directed me to a certain Rabbi (made sure I got all the contact info) who knew exactly what to do.
Mazel Tov to all on the upcoming Simcha!
I see we have managed, in classic CR fashion, to misinterpret, misconstrue, quote a few Gedolim & Rabbonim, and muddy the waters a bit further. I won’t nitpick over the fact that my post was disregarded and ignored. I do want to request that if SaysMe is not inclined to reread her (his?) post and change the “can” to a “cannot,” would some other poster (I see the Mods are out to lunch on this one) take a look at it and correct the misinformation?
Thanks!
Dear younglady,
This thread is making me extremely uncomfortable. I hope you’re just here for entertainment or out of boredom. This is absolutely not the place to get instructions or practical advice on what you may or may not do on Shabbos. The Mods, as another poster already mentioned, are supposed to inform you of this, but they have their own mysterious reasons for letting some posts go right over their heads, and removing others.
Aside from the obvious danger of getting advice on Halacha from people who may be completely uninformed or misinformed, you have the additional problem of the CR being inaccurate as far as plain English goes. Says Me, please ask the mods to let you correct your post. I’m pretty sure there’s a “can” in there where you meant to write “cannot.”
Younglady, all young ladies, and even older ones, should do their best to look their best on Shabbos. But keep in mind that putting on makeup incorrectly on Shabbos is literally playing with fire. Please find a real human being that you know, trust, and can speak to out in the real world, to get your advice.
Thanks gefen.
Equation, not equasion.
As for your question- “can you explain how not believing…?”
Sorry, but, no, I cannot.
Gefen, thank you for your well thought out comment.
However, there is a mathematical problem with your theory.
Taking Him out of the picture would (Ch”v’Sh) make someone a koifer.
But there are those here in the CR who say that not believing in the age gap and the shidduch crisis makes someone a koifer.
So they’re both equal.
And in a mathematical equasion if they’re both equal then I think you’re wrong.
And so is everybody else around here.
Maybe Haifagirl can help. She just proved that not only is she a whiz at grammar and spelling; her math skills are nothing to sneeze at either.
Haifagirl, you prove once again that grammarians are kind, courteous, civilized people.
Somebody else would probably have shot him.
And to the OP, that would certainly be a way of responding without any of the negative verbal connotations that distress you.
Wow! YW Ed performs AZ bidding! Silences all voices of dissent by posting longest, most incomprehensible post ever allowed on these hallowed pages.
ATTENTION KGB agents out of work & searching for employment since fall of communism in Mother Russia:
WANTED- Men with minimum 10 years experience in silencing voices of dissent. Familiarity with strongarm tactics a plus. Apply to YW Ed.
rabbiofberlin, hold the surprise! It depends on the different types of Chassidim. I’m not an expert on different Chassidish minhagim, but I do know that some Chassidim do have the Kallah cover her face at Mitzvah Tantz. Others, as you’ve seen, do not. A little respect for different minhagim, that’s all it takes.
crisisoftheweek +++1,000
Great post!
There is one major difference though, between frum world hysterics and Italian pasta:
Italians have been cooking pasta for hundreds (over 1,000?) of years. Just a short while ago in historical terms, (definitely less than 100 years) the frum world, and the whole Jewish world for that matter, responded to crises with Tehillim, with tefillah, with teshuva & tachanunim. It’s our sophisticated generation that has decided to address every problem by throwing money at it and putting ads in the papers about it in the belief that this will cause the problem to hang its head in shame and slink away.
Gavra, what’s wrong with a wealthy shviger?
Doesn’t everyone wish they had one???
Interesting thread. Oomis, I read an old post of yours and was wondering-
You stated that when the world was divided during Dor Haflaga, Hebrew was one of the 70 languages. I guess you meant Lashon Kodesh. Hebrew as we speak it is an invention of Ehud ben Yehuda, based in part on Lashon Kodesh. Is Lashon Kodesh in fact one of the 70 languages, or is it a separate entity?
Oomis also stated that someone had to be speaking Lashon Kodesh in order for it to survive. While this is true of our basic world languages like Inuit and Welsh, I’m not sure this is the case with Lashon Kodesh. This is the language of the Torah through which the world was created. Does it have an eternal existence outside of humans speaking it?
I would be very interested in answers from any esteemed YWC linguists that want to make this clear. Including oomis, if you like!
OOM, you sure know how to use your tisha kavim!
But you’re missing the point.
The opposition to feminists has nothing to do with their “wanting to be like men.” It has to do with our Mesora Hakdosha. It’s kept us going for a couple thousand years and counting. And we trust our Chachamim, leading us in an unbroken chain all the way back to Sinai, to help us stay on the right path.
As for gavra’s mention of Rebbetzin Leibowitz, and, Lehavdil bein chayim l’chayim, Rebbetzin David- these two brilliabt ladies never tried to become Rabbis. Nor did they limit their accomplishments to a nice hot potato kugel. All within the framework of our Mesora.
AZ, just read the last paragraph of my post. You answer’s there.
Lost my sparkle, first of all Mazel Tov! May this be the beginning of wonderful, happy years for you!
I haven’t noticed you before around here, but I am here long enough to know that multiple screen names are a major No No. Having said that, I think, with all due respect, it’s time for you to get a new one. How do you feel about- “Just Got My Sparkle Back!” ??
Because I hope that’s how you feel.
And I’d like to think it’s the truth.
Wishing you much Hatzlacha!
Hoi! , as in ahoy! , apushata.
Your welcome.
AZ, I bowed out earlier to let you have center stage. You seem to enjoy it much more than I do. But your last comment is so sickening in its arrogant, condescending tone that you got me back.
The age gap is certainly an interesting theory; I would find it more interesting if I saw you hire someone with a little more mathematical clout. How about a few nice Jewish accountants or actuaries to come onboard? I also find it interesting that some of the Roshei Yeshiva who kindly lent their approval to NASI are not practically following your advice in their own families, or among their close talmidim. Do they have other considerations we don’t know about?
What irks me to no end is the way you insist on burying your head in the sand in refusing to consider other changes in societal norms that have arisen in the last 20 or so years.
I won’t belabor the point I already made many posts ago. But you asked me how many girls in my grad class had 7 siblings, or 10 kids in their families? Answer- some, maybe one third or less. Yes, today there are generally larger families in our community. But the ratio of males to females cannot have changed, as those larger families, presumably, are not made up of girls exclusively.
A topic for discussion- how have larger families affected affluence and financial stability? And just to make the discussion more effective: Add to this the societal change nobody thinks to mention; i.e. the steady, exponential rise in the number of young men wanting to defer involvement in their own parnassa for years (the number of years also steadily going up); and the number of young ladies (-arguably greater than men, as seminaries seem to be doing a finer job inculcating these ideals) who want more and more years devoted to Torah learning exclusively on the part of their husbands.
The refusal on your part (and on the part of others with influence) to broaden the discussion to examine the issue from all sides, will only exacerbate the problem we are dealing with already. I know too many people dealing with older singles to ignore your smug, overbearing attempts at drowning out any voices that don’t align with your idea.
batseven, you win the Prize!
Thanks!
For being honest.
For being sincere.
For not being shy to show off the good person you are.
For not trying to be funny & sounding pathetic.
Oh and just to be polite & answer the OP, I’d follow batseven.
Probably, DY.
Just down the road from Temple Beth Merchatz.
Like the name, PBA.
I can just see you rubbing your hands avariciously as you see the exorbitant application fees piling up in your account…
WIY, Do Not under any circumstances leave friend #1 standing there like a fool and then “slip away” (your words). At best you are being extremely rude; at worst (let’s say if friend #1 is very sensitive, or socially awkward to begin with, or has some reason to feel like an outsider) you could be touching on hamalbin p’nei chaveiro. Introduce friend #1 to friend #2 and make it a 3 way conversation if you can. The fact that you would rather speak to friend #2, whom you feel closer with, is irrelevant. If you are over 6 years old, as your writing skills seem to indicate, you are surely used to deferring your own satisfaction for the sake of behaving kindly and decently to others.
Why am I not surprised a yekke is asking this question?
I’m impressed Vogue; I see you’re really thinking this one through.
So, looks like we”ll have to ditch those round trip tickets to China (that’s capital C, Mr Apushatay).
Pity… I would’ve liked to see the look on AZ’s face when 30,000,000 guys showed up at NASI World Headquarters.
Like I said before, so far the best advice you got is from Veltz Meshuggener.
nfg, not trying to nitpick, but i suspect you”ll find this correction useful. The word Baal Teshuva refers to a person who has done Teshuva. The word “Baal” is the one referring to the person, so that’s the word to pluralize- Baalei Teshuva. Similarly, a person can (hopefully) be a Shomer Shabbos; many are Shomrei Shabbos.
Ok Vogue, agreed; we don’t think you’re sexist. But all those sweet young ladies learning to do hafrashas challa will enter the shidduch market and we’ll be overrun with female BT’s.
No, your idea won’t work without the inestimable advice of the ineffable Veltz Meshuggener.
AZ, the inefficiencies of the shadchan system have most certainly NOT been addressed effectively, or even half-heartedly, or sloppily. Your statement will be correct when shadchanim start redting shidduchim to boys and girls at the same time, as any old-time shadchan will tell you used to be the norm. Before we try game changing plans that are difficult and perhaps foolhardy to implement, why don’t we try this small simple change? No money or Kol Korehs necessary.
As for your charts and mathematical calculations- I’ve been zocheh to be married for a lot of years. (Exactly how long? Don’t try getting ladies to divulge sensitive info that may reveal their age.) My friends and I were born during the post-World War II baby boom, a time of great population growth among Jewish communities as well. Why didn’t we have this problem? Zero girls in my graduating class never married. And back in the day we all had plenty of dates and fine young men to choose from. If the math works now, it should have worked then too, correct?
Hi ubiq!
“Derech shel ish lachzor al isha”!? Just let them try that one on me! Unlike those who wish to change the system so boys and girls can meet on their own, I have mesora on my side. Going back further than New York in the 1940’s. Shadchanim have been around for a long long time, and they always suggested a shidduch to the families (often the fathers) of a young man & a young lady at the same time. This new system of approaching the boys first was definitely not around thirty years ago. As I mentioned, it grew out of a misguided attempt to protect our (already overprotected?) daughters from hurt feelings.
Hi OOM!
Happy Shavuos to you too!
I wish the mods had killed webw’s post at birth, but you certainly gave it a new perspective!
There is one new societal norm in shidduch dating. And it is, as ubiquitin suggests, a change that did not exist 15 / 20 years ago.
“Shadchan suggests girl. Boys’ side looks into her.” The shadchan always suggests the girl to the boy’s side first. Interesting to note that this is generally not the case in Chassidish circles, where the girls do not have the same problems in shidduchim. The “old fashioned” method, which Chassidish shadchanim still practice, was for the shadchan to redt the shidduch to both sides simultaneously. I have been told this was changed to protect the girls from rejection. (Why we assume that this is more painful for girls & their families than for boys & their parents, is beyond me.) This way the girl being redt a shidduch already has a positive answer from the boy, and it’s up to her to accept or reject the proposal.
If we would all seriously be interested in making a change that would result in more dates for girls, this would be it: Insist that all shadchanim stop this new, nonsensical practice of presenting boys with girls’ names first!
Many people bemoan the fact that boys and girls do not meet on their own as they did a generation ago. News flash- not all couples married today met on their own. Many of us met through the traditional “shadchan method.” And it worked. What changed in the last 20 years or so, is this ridiculous idea of protecting our young ladies from rejection, thus ensuring that not only are they not rejected, now they can’t get a date either!
The age gap solutions of having younger boys enter the shidduch market open a shelf load of cans of worms that I will not go into. Any married person, mechanech or mechaneches, or parent, can easily discern what they are. The beauty of this solution is that it creates no major changes, except for a bit of inconvenience on the part of girls and their parents, and perhaps few extra phone calls on the part of the shadchan. If they are genuinely interested in trying to alleviate the problem, they are the ones who must decide they”ll try it!
Just a mem, you are technically correct, but methinks quoting “Nashim be’mai zachyan..” (apologies for awkward transliteration) in this venue will result in you being handed your head on a platter.
Just pointing it out, before you get into deeper trouble…
Machsheffa
Zahavasd, do you or your wife fry foods? Latkas? Schnitzel? Fo the most part these have been replaced by fresh salads, grilled chicken, but for those who still fry- do you then try to drain off that extra oil on a paper towel? The hot greasy food will absorb whatever is in the paper towel. That’s where the Pesach paper towels come from. Not from wiping off the slush you tracked in (if this weather doesn’t improve).
I am not learned enough to offer an opinion as to whether Rav Blumenkrantz was a machmir or a meikil. What I would like to say is that I feel great hakaras hatov to Rav Blumenkrantz. I grew up in a frum home and watched my mother make Pesach for years; but when I had to finally prepare for Pesach and for the Seder in my own home I felt a little anxious, a little lost. I bought the book that first year to check the permissibility of some products, and I felt as if Rav Blumenkrantz took me by the hand and helped me through all my Pesach preparations every step of the way. I still buy the book every year, although I must admit I refer to it less and less. The book contains a wealth of information about many topics. Of course specific shailos are better left for one’s own Rav.
Jews believe that G-d created every living being, and every object for that matter, for a purpose. As far as a person has control over his or her actions, more so than, shall we say, a rock or a chicken, he can attain his reward by fulfilling his purpose. Since it’s a bit mysterious and we can’t be sure exactly what we are meant to achieve, we follow the blueprints we have been given. For a Jew this is the Torah. For a non-Jew, as others have said, there are the 7 Noahide Laws. If you believe in your Creator, observe these laws, and behave with kindness, honesty and decency to your fellow human beings, you are sure to attain your reward. Jews do not believe that every person has to fulfill the exact same requirements. A Jewish woman does not have to observe all of the the same commandments as a man; a Cohen,or priest, has different requirements than an Israelite; a Jew has different requirements than a non- Jew. This does not imply that one person will necessarily receive a greater reward than an other, as each person is judged based on his own achievement of his personal goals, taking into account his G-d given talents and limitations.
???
I need to know- Am I the only person that was reminded of Easter eggs? Don’t get me wrong, I do go all out with the beautiful crystal stemware, silver, etc etc at my Seder table. I want all the kids to ooh and ahh and remember the experience. But I never really got the idea of bento boxes or the brightly patterned baroque tablecloth in shades of aubergine and bright orange. I enjoy the feeling that when Eliyahu Hanavi comes through the door, he”ll feel right at home.
Yichusdik, +++10 on your opening post!
Petulant children indeed!
I couldn’t agree more.
They were rejected by voters in a Democratic country.
Thay can either work on regaining the public’s trust, or get used to sitting in the opposition. I find it a little weird hearing them complain bitterly about the hand not extended to them in friendship. -The hand they bit while maligning its owner during the election campaign.
Gavra, sad but true.
Chaval al d’avdin…
Once upon a time, mothers who had children to marry off wet the pages of their Tehillim.
Presumably that method has been deemed ineffective?
Having said that, and without reference to any specific individuals, lack of designer labeling is not indicative of lack of class or money. Au contraire. The guys walking around with Ferragamo or Pucci vivaciously displayed across their chests, lapels, belt buckles, or the temple of their eyeglasses, are Not the classy guys. Or the wealthy ones. You can spend a whole lot more, and cut a much sharper figure, having your suits and shirts discreetly custom tailored by a grey haired gentleman with an accent thicker than a bolognese sauce, who leaves no trace of his identity anywhere on the garment.
Mods- Sleeping?
I’m very unpleasantly surprised to read personal info- with name and all- here in the venerable CR, where the ever vigilant mods delete posts containing the tiniest mahshehu of impropriety.
Or are we only here to protect our own personal info as choshuve CR posters, while we blithely post personal details about our friends and neighbours?
Or was this post allowed because while Mods do not allow any gossip and remarks about clearly identified persons of interest, this person was a person of SO MUCH interest that this level of interest superceded any prior rules established in the CR?
Or what?
Haifagirl, I enjoy your vigilance, your corrections, and your grammatical analyses. It came as no surprise to me that you are also attached to proper table manners, and all sorts of manners. But alas, I must object to one of your pet peeves!
You want to “scream” when someone says “this is yum”? Please. I’m not the first (or thousandth) person to say this, so excuse the familiar phrase, but don’t sweat the small stuff. When someone says “this is yum,” or even “this is so yum,” don’t waste your energy on suppressing a scream. Be happy that you can sit and share a meal that at least one person at the table finds delicious. Taking our blessings for granted and not appreciating our loved ones and dinner/work/life companions is where a lot of impoliteness starts, n’est-ce pas?