golfer

LOL LF.

Pass those pikkls…

Lior, I won’t dignify your comment with a response.

But to oomis, charlieh, and others- Please read the OP’s post.

This is not a lady asking for shopping or headcovering advice. This is a husband complaining about his wife wanting to make an extravagant purchase. Your posts have major Shalom Bayis destroying potential. Never a good idea. (Charlie, do you usually respond to a friend’s complaint about his spouse by pointing out the superiority and excellence of your own wife?)

AJewwho, examine the issue with the same lens you would employ in a discussion on any large purchase your wife is interested in, while you feel that it strains your budget. This is no different than her buying a pair of designer shoes that cost as much as nine pairs of your loafers. Be happy to have a wife who is female and enjoys looking pretty. (May I hazard a guess that you also are not averse to the idea?) Respect the fact that she has a brain and you can discuss your joint budget in a calm, methodical manner. Make an honest effort to see how much money you can come up with for her to spend on clothing, cosmetics & etc. Chances are, if she sees you’re taking her seriously and trying to accommodate as much as possible, your wife will join in being reasonable as well. And if she is confident that you appreciate her pleasant appearance, she may feel less motivated to put effort into how her friends see her looking when she’s out and about.

FrumRav, thank you for the information.

Just wondering, do you perhaps have an ulterior motive?

Are you trying yo remind us to start Pesach cleaning as it’s already almost – Gasp- Rosh Chodesh Shvat !?

Sorry.

Not taking the bait…

I think there are two points being overlooked here-

It’s interesting to notice that while just about everybody nods along agreeably when the subject of tolerance comes up, many people are tolerant of those less fortunate, less educated, less observant, less machmir. They don’t feel the need to be considerate of those who are MORE, in any way.

Also, most of us can agree that there are photos of women that, because of the advanced age, extreme modesty, or a combination of both on the part of their subject, are not a problem for men to look at. Still, it’s easier to refrain from publishing any photos of ladies, than to have to sit in judgment and then offend by publishing a photo of this rebbetzin and not that one.

Oomis,

“Let’s all find another chynik to hock.”

May I vote that ? –

– Best Sentence in CR Ever –

Congrats.

Glad you didn’t close the thread, Mods, while picturesq was left wondering what to do with that poor baby left out in the stroller. Picturesq, it’s not enough to wait until after Shabbos. Leave the baby there until the Eruv is fixed. Make sure you always have him covered with a good warm blanket before you start your trek.

Update:

Got clear, indisputable answer to my question.

Not here in the CR from CR members.

But here on yeshivaworld.com. (No links, so look it up for yourselves.)

Now it’s up to all the dating bachelors who entertain us in the CR, to read the article and pass around the info to all their friends.

As influential CR posters, I’m sure they have the necessary clout and powers of persuasion to assure us of a satisfactory outcome. Namely, that pictures of young ladies in shidduchim be henceforth verboten.

Poster, you got some very good advice from be good. I paid close attention to her post too. But I can’t help feeling, as you do, that redting shidduchim, especially to older singles, often results in a lot of hurt feelings.

When I think of an idea for a possible shidduch, I’m always torn between making the call, or being smart and banishing the thought before I go near the phone. It’s no use wishing singles (and their parents) were less sensitive; I can’t think of a more sensitive issue! Even with the best of intentions the possibility of bruising feelings is exponentially greater than the possibility of bringing two people together.

I still think we all need to try and redt shidduchim, while holding our breaths and treading very, very carefully.

One problem I always have is that the guy- who protocol demands is the first one I approach- will, naturally, request a resume. Since I’m not a professional, I don’t have resumes as a matter of course, and have to make a call to get one. Maybe I also have to clarify a few things, ask a few questions, to get the guy some additional info he asked for. Then it takes many weeks, often months, until I hear from him. (That’s if I’m lucky and I hear from him at all!) All that time the girl is wondering what happened, thinking maybe I was just being a yenta. After all I asked her all those nosy intrusive questions and there’s no guy in sight. I have no idea how to get around this. Any suggestions- greatly appreciated.

I won’t even start with the dilemma I’m stuck with if the young man asks for a picture. I brought that up on another thread, hoping for an answer, but didn’t manage to get any clarity on the issue. The best I came up with was that since passing around pictures is so distasteful (-I strongly agree) I should drop the shidduch at that point.

Yes, an officially Coffee room is just what we needed round here.

Thank you all!

I hear what you’re saying, oomis.

Seems to me you’re saying, “stay calm, talk a deep breath, get some sunshine, or have a cup of tea.”

Unfortunately, that’s just not the way it is with shidduchim.

I saw you were chastised (different thread) for calling shidduchim a “hot button issue.” Maybe the phrase you used is not exactly perfectly correct. But you didn’t see me taking issue with it. Shidduchim bring out the least calm aspect of many people’s characters. Not a good thing. Just how it is.

Haifagirl, you’re joking.

Right?

***

I have heard of a practice that I found strange, distasteful, and a little hard to believe, wherein the boy’s mother and the girl both show up at a prearranged location and don’t speak at all (!!!) but the boy’s mother gets to see how she looks.

I would never agree to anything of this nature. And would drop the shidduch if it was suggested. What? They can’t act civilized and say hello to each other? And the boy’s mother wants to look at her (Why?) but has no interest in engaging her in any conversation?

(If I was the hypothetical girl I’d probably embarrass myself by flicking a glance in the matriarch’s direction and saying something like “the eagle flies at dawn” or “Winston was my dearest friend” then choking on a fit of giggles.)

I’m curious if anyone else has ever heard of this. Snopes, anyone?

Sure-

Fathers, and hypothetical fathers- Welcome!

Thank you, oomis, for never failing to respond to a post.

*Most Courteous Poster Award* goes to you, as usual.

(I sincerely hope Miss SUC will forgive me for handing out awards.)

But- No answer to my question?

-How would you, as a would-be shadchan, or as a hypothetical girl in shidduchim (or her mother), answer with my question??

(Of course this question is also open to other posters. But doesn’t seem to have stirred up much interest. Or thought.)

I thought my earlier post was quite long enough, maybe more than long enough. I did want to add, however, that I see nothing wrong with a man or woman wanting to be married to someone whose appearance they find pleasing. It is always advisable- and in fact this has always been the practice- that the man and woman see each other before the engagement (eirusin) takes place.

I also find it completely irrelevant to the discussion whether men now prefer brunettes when they used to prefer blondes, whether men prefer extremely thin women when they used to look for more rotund partners, or how society may or may not have changed with regards to viewing physical characteristics.

What I take issue with is the nonsensical assumption that this situation will in any way be enhanced by a young man receiving a photo of a young woman before going on a date.

Oomis, on a personal level, I totally agree with you.

This new phenomenon of attaching photos to resumes is extremely distasteful, to say the least.

And completely weird when you consider the fact that the whole system of shidduchim was instituted to preserve tzniyus during the process of people meeting members of the opposite sex to set up a Jewish home be’Kdusha uve’Tahara.

The first time I opened an email attachment expecting to see a neatly typed resume and saw a photo instead (Yes, I know all you computer savvy people out there- you would’ve known before you opened it)- I jumped! Literally. Was that a hack? Why is there a picture of a pretty girl with long hair and lots of makeup on my computer screen?!?

Of course, while I may emphatically agree with oomis, I am in no position to agree or comment on the quotes from Talmidei Chachamim provided by DY. Except perhaps to say that I do feel a bit validated and thank DY for providing them.

What I was wondering, oomis, was- Why are you fixated on boys’ mothers looking at pictures of prospective candidates? I’ve been puzzled for a while by the vilification and demonization of boys’ mothers. Presumably the guys in question, if they’re out searching for a wife, are adults. They’re actively involved in the pursuit. (I know there are circles where the parents are extremely involved in the process, and the young people only meet briefly, but those are not the circles passing around photos on the internet.) I would prefer to lay the blame directly in their laps.

I’ve tried to redt shidduchim where I’ve been told the young man won’t consider it unless I provide a picture. I’m left with the choice of requesting a picture (which makes me very uncomfortable) and passing it on (makes me even much more uncomfortable), or dropping the shidduch.

Maybe it would be a good idea to have professional shadchanim all agree not to provide pictures. This idea, I think, has the prospects of that famous snowball in a very hot location. Shadchanim are loathe to implement any changes to the “rules” that have been arbitrarily, often foolishly, implemented for dealing with shidduchim. I’m about as far from professional as a shadchan can be, and I don’t see people lining up to take advice from me.

So my question to you was (and remains)-

What do we do with the guys who want to see a picture of a girl?

OK Oomis, heard you, got it.

No mothers.

What do you say when a guys wants to see a photo before he dates?

Looks are subjective. And he wants to see for himself how she looks before they go out. So?

And btw, you’re making me very curious where you live/ what community you’re part of. You mention often how important it is for a girl to be neat & for a guy (found this on another thread) to brush his hair and teeth and shower (!!!!) before he goes out. I never came across a guy (or girl) that needed instruction in basic hygiene before a date. Admittedly some look more pressed and put together than others, but unbrushed teeth (Ewww) ? What gives?

Haifag, one could argue that good grammar is far more appealing when joined with a logical mathematical brain.

Having said that, perhaps you can explain why you only offered 2 qualities when the OP wanted 3?

Are you deliberately setting your sights low?

Why are we so afraid to mention the whole topic of physical attraction that when it is mentioned, it’s twisted into a befuddled bemuddled “someone who you do not find unattractive” ??

Reminds me of that whole “beheima asher lo…”

Le’havdil.

So oomis, now that Chanuka’s over and we’re putting away our peelers, would you like to let us in on the secret-

How were Best Bubby’s egg & gluten free latkes?

And what advice/ recipe can you offer the rest of us?

Zdad, if we’re getting technical here then klezmer music is not totally, exclusively, authentic Jewish music. First of all it only belongs to Ashkenazi Jews, and not even all Ashkenazim. Its roots are in Eastern Europe and it’s heavily influenced by gypsy (I believe they prefer to be called Roma today) music. Our real music is, as we all know, the music of the Leviim. There is a niggun I’ve heard (in some Kehillos it’s used on Yom Kippur) that some say was sung in the Bais Hamikdash. No idea if this is factual. But klezmer music has as much a right to call itself authentic Jewish music as many non-klezmer niggunim composed by Jews. Maybe less. Because while we are always somewhat influenced by our surrounding culture, the influence is sometimes less pronounced. I’d choose the Baal Shem Tov’s niggun over klezmer if I wanted a Jewish sound. And I’m sure 10 other Jews would choose ten different compositions.

Hatikvah, anyone? (Yes, bit of plagiarism in there too…)

And I’ve been waiting for someone to mention Yerushalayim Shel Zahav.

Or Shlomo Carlebach.

Or (should I put in “lehavdil”?) the music of the Chassidic court of their choice.

Can we all at least agree that listening to Arba Bavot does not evoke the same feelings as, Lehavdil Elef Alfei Havdalos, listening to eminem.

Haifag, people who refrain from listening to “non-Jewish music” are not avoiding a precise tempo, key, or sequences of notes. They don’t listen to music with secular lyrics that has been composed by, and disseminated to, the non-Jewish population. Generally, if the intent is to provoke behaviors that are not in keeping with our standards (which can usually be discerned), the music is frowned upon.

I know this answer won’t satisfy completely. Mozart and Beethoven were not Jewish and their music is considered by just about everyone to be acceptable. And too many Jewish singers and composers to list plagiarized or parodized (-not a word? I’m sure you know what I’m saying-) non-Jewish songs. But it’s the best I can do for now.

If you are sincerely interested in staying away from music that’s not good for your Neshama, then a good barometer is your own Neshama’s reaction to the music you’re listening to.

Yes, Haifagirl. I saw your question and was very interested in an answer. I don’t pretend to know enough about music to have offered one of my own. Apparently I’m not the only one. I checked back in to find what the CR came up with but, as you already noticed, your question was misunderstood. Perhaps you’re right and there is no way to easily identify Jewish music?

I wonder if what makes music Jewish is not the tune or cadence or key. I’ve been thinking it might have more to do with the identity and, especially, the intention of the composer, than with specific sequences of notes.

Here it is at last!

This thread is the REAL reason for the shidduch crisis.

Attention R’ NASI, R’ Rechnitz (who prefers we refer to it as a shidduch Catastrophe), shadchanim great and small, and last but for sure not least- Singles!

It’s time to throw out your Kol koreis, your (not exactly mathematically astute) calculations of gaps, and your prior notions.

In the olden days and way back when before Al Gore (or whoever it was) discovered the internet, we were not so smart. We didn’t have so much information. We didn’t demand so much information. We didn’t do investigations that would put the the work of the CIA, the Mossad, and the KGB to shame when someone suggested we go on a date. We didn’t have lists and prerequisites and protocols that had to be followed precisely and obsessively before we agreed to meet somebody.

What today’s singles (and their parents) have accomplished with their cleverness is that they’ve outsmarted themselves from finding happiness in marriage.

Which always, since the creation of Chava, required a certain leap of faith. Or, if you prefer, a solid dose of Bitachon.

I second barlev.

LA and Miami Beach are much better places to raise funds in the winter.